Recent direction of the Propeller forums
Paul Baker
Posts: 6,351
Over the last few months I have noticed a disturbing trend in the Propeller forums. That is that some relations between active members of the Propeller forum becoming adversarial in nature. Usually these arguments remain a debate of various ways of dealing with an issue, but lately some of these debates have taken·more of a personal·nature.·This type of behaviour is discouraging and is poisionous to the type of environment we are trying to foster on the forums, especially in this forum with a chip novel enough to make nearly anyone have at least a few questions when first exposed to it. We want to encourage people to ask thier questions without fear of retribution or critisism, but when someone first comes to this forums and sees arguments raging (whether personal or not), they think twice before posting thier questions. I know this is happening because I have personally received direct email questions where they have stated they are afraid to ask the forums because of their perceived likelyhood of being attacked or starting a debate.
Debates·in general are OK, because frequently there is more than one way to solve a problem. But before you click submit on a post where you are debating a subject, walk away from your computer for a minute or two and when you return, reread the post, but put yourself in the place of the person you are addressing and ask yourself "If I was the other person, how would I interpret this message." Remember many types of conversation which are perfectly acceptable in real life are not online. For example, sarcasm does not translate well into the written word so therefore should never be used in the forum. If there are two different ways of interpreting your message, assume the other party will see it in the worst possible light, and change your post so there is only one way to interpret it.
Monitoring the forum is only a small portion of my responsibilies at Parallax, and as such I do not have time to read every post to check if it follows forum guidelines. If I have to start devoting more time to monitoring the forum to make sure people are behaving thierselves, you will have one very unhappy Moderator on your hands, and neither of us want that. Repeated violation of forum rules will lead to banning accounts and IP addresses, but this is a draconian measure I want to avoid at all costs.
My best advice is to check your ego at the door, if you feel like you or someone else has been attacked, do not respond. Instead send me a personal message, and I will take care of the situation and your identity will remain anonymous.
Thank you,
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 12/28/2007 8:33:33 PM GMT
Debates·in general are OK, because frequently there is more than one way to solve a problem. But before you click submit on a post where you are debating a subject, walk away from your computer for a minute or two and when you return, reread the post, but put yourself in the place of the person you are addressing and ask yourself "If I was the other person, how would I interpret this message." Remember many types of conversation which are perfectly acceptable in real life are not online. For example, sarcasm does not translate well into the written word so therefore should never be used in the forum. If there are two different ways of interpreting your message, assume the other party will see it in the worst possible light, and change your post so there is only one way to interpret it.
Monitoring the forum is only a small portion of my responsibilies at Parallax, and as such I do not have time to read every post to check if it follows forum guidelines. If I have to start devoting more time to monitoring the forum to make sure people are behaving thierselves, you will have one very unhappy Moderator on your hands, and neither of us want that. Repeated violation of forum rules will lead to banning accounts and IP addresses, but this is a draconian measure I want to avoid at all costs.
My best advice is to check your ego at the door, if you feel like you or someone else has been attacked, do not respond. Instead send me a personal message, and I will take care of the situation and your identity will remain anonymous.
Thank you,
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 12/28/2007 8:33:33 PM GMT
Comments
I try to use the search but I have alot of trouble finding relevent info. It either comes up with 0 results or 5,000. The next step would be to post a message. While it might take 5 minutes for someone to answer me, "Thanx to all who have in a polite manner", I find myself going in circles to avoid posting msg's to the forum. Maybe this will be a wakeup call to the certain people who insist on commenting on every post and usually in a negative manner.
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Mosquito: An animal which buzzes in your ear and never stops. He may byte you, he may nibble you, but you will know you were bit.
·A good engineer borrows from others, a great engineer steals everything outright!!
I'm not sure whether you're referring to the search menu item at the top of the forum page or the separate search engine. The forum search function is known to be fairly limited in its usefulness. Much better is to use search.parallax.com which is a Google engine based at Parallax.
Use http://search.parallax.com for your searching needs, it is a dedicated server we have that runs the Google search algorithm on our website. The "search" button on the forums should be avoided.
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
The propeller wiki at http://propeller.wikispaces.com is a great source of information if we fill it with it, But the forums give another dimension so gratifying many times. I hope it is not ruined (me included).
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Mosquito: An animal which buzzes in your ear and never stops. He may byte you, he may nibble you, but you will know you were bit.
·A good engineer borrows from others, a great engineer steals everything outright!!
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
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Mosquito: An animal which buzzes in your ear and never stops. He may byte you, he may nibble you, but you will know you were bit.
·A good engineer borrows from others, a great engineer steals everything outright!!
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
That stick in the prop forum would have been nice. Just my pennies worth.
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Mosquito: An animal which buzzes in your ear and never stops. He may byte you, he may nibble you, but you will know you were bit.
·A good engineer borrows from others, a great engineer steals everything outright!!
There may be a backdoor approach that doesn't require a recompile. Rather than changing the link itself, would it be possible to attach a prefilter (i.e. before the aspx software sees it) to the forum website that redirected GETs from forums.parallax.com/forums/search.aspx?... to search.parallax.com? (I realize the two sites are hosted by different services, but that shouldn't matter.) The effort required to install such a filter should be more than outweighed by the tech support hours it saves.
-Phil
Also I, for instance, did not realise that the references to PWM in each cog were referring to the fact you could implement a software PWM - not a problem because I had something cyclic in one of the cogs so it was easy enough to add a software PWM - but it would have been nice to see it in the main documentation rather than having to stumble across it in the 'timers' application note. I think the specifics of the special registers should be in the main documentation not in an application note.
Now, if any of that sounded horrid - I'm sorry
Alex.
I is right that I have called someone names. If you look at the thread, you'll see how things escalated. I warned the one that he's getting personal but he ignored it. I'm not the person who quietly accepts it when I'm called names. I never did that and never will do so. Those who know me personally (no one here) know, that I'm quite a patient person, but also do know that I don't accept unjustified attacks.
More specific:
It's OK if someone doesn't understand the rational behind someone else's question. But then he can ask and I'll try to explain it in a different way. Sometimes I fail in that. I know that my answers are sometimes cryptic or hard to understand.
It's also OK if someone thinks that a feature isn't required because he never needed it. But then .. so what? I do have a background of 25 years of software-development (earned me my living) and I think I know what works and what helps.
The argument that a feature request for Spin is not OK, because that feature resembles a different language's construct isn't very logical to me. At a higher level, any change could find a similarity in some other programming language and be the reason not to do it. Trying to suppress suggestions this way and argueing that I'm not flexible enough is opinnion-terror in my eyes. Ignoring examples I gave that aren't solved by the suggestions given is what it is: Ignoring.
What I can ask for is, that the one ignores the whole thread. As I do many times, because I simply don't understand what the problem behind the question is. But this can't be the reason to bash the one asking.
Now I'll make me a mug of coffee, switch on the development-computer and continue my work on the brilliant Propeller chip ...
Nick
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Never use force, just go for a bigger hammer!
The DIY Digital-Readout for mills, lathes etc.:
YADRO
Hi Mosquito,
If there's a problem where newcomers are put of posting on the forums, then I'm glad you are highlighting it. But did you really mean that asking a question on the forum is second on the list of things to do when you hit something you don't know?
I think an awful lot of technical forums can be a bit short with people that don't consult the manual for example. Sometimes with no more than "RTFM". Then there's the stickies at the top of the forum that lead to all sorts of interesting things to consult such as "Tricks and Traps". For those people that have it, Andre's Hydra book. And the Propeller Wiki too.
You know, even the most experienced Prop users hit issues on a regular basis that they don't know the answer to. But they don't ask most of them on the forum. The reason they have got that level of knowledge is that they've taken the time to read the existing resources when there's a problem, or do experiments. They don't ask questions on the forum because it'll only take 5 minutes rather than "going round the houses". They go round the houses first, and only then, if still stuck do they ask the question.
Now I can't recall ever seeing any comments like "Can't you see", "You should have known" and "I can't believe you didn't know", and I've searched for them just now, and there's no results for them. (If I've missed them, please PM me a url.) But there is occasionally an answer that consists solely of a reference to well known source of information, or a code snippet. Which might seem a tad short, but I think is fair enough.
<edit>OK, someone had PMed me an example that I hadn't seen before, so I must now agree that it has happened</edit>
Occasionally there's the person who asks a question, but then won't graciously accept the answers. They argue with the people that answered their question.
Anyway, back to the main issue of a possible reluctance of newcomers to ask questions here. Maybe the answer there is to have a propeller beginner's forum, where chit-chat can happen without any expectation whatsoever of having RTFM. People who perhaps haven't even decided for definite to go for a Prop rather than an ATMEL or whatever might find such a forum useful too.
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Help to build the Propeller wiki - propeller.wikispaces.com
Play Defender - Propeller version of the classic game
Prop Room Robotics - my web store for Roomba spare parts in the UK
Post Edited (CardboardGuru) : 12/29/2007 7:50:03 PM GMT
Kindness and patience will be rewarded in kind.
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JMH
Post Edited (Fred Hawkins) : 12/29/2007 3:37:43 PM GMT
sure, but one and the other go hand in hand.
I have not the least idea how Mike makes it; I do not have the impression that he just copies and pasts his past answers for newbie's questions and issues.
I have observed 3 "facts" that from time to time make we wonder why I am writing here (The reasons are: I like most people here, I am highly interested in the Propeller, from time to time there is a situation where even I learn something new, and I think - rarely as it may be - I can be terribly useful
But back to the point(s):
(1) Most elementary questions have been asked during the past two years and have been well answered. However there is no good referencing possible, even with your own postings. So you have to rewrite the answer. The good thng is you can better adapt to the specific situation, and can incorporate more "side knowledge" than the last time. However it takes 10 to 20 minutes for good work. You can confirm this by the many remarks as: "Oops, Mike you had been faster." This shows me that in many cases two or even three members WORK for a good reply!
But much of this worl, and double work could be avoided by a better referencing
(2) There is Andr
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Dave Ratcliff· N6YEE
First of all, not only does everyone come from different backgrounds and experiences, many of us
are scattered all over the world. Part of the reason I did the map-yourself experiment a while back
was to open eyes to this fact. There are cultural differences that come into play when one writes
in this forum. Even worse, a matter-of-fact statement that was translated into English by someone
who English is a second language could be taken as sarcasm by someone else. It doesn't make
either party wrong, but people need to read/reply with an understanding that a message might
not have come across as intended. This will happen with a global community.
Secondly, there are two classes of people here... The first group are higher level electronics/programmers
who have solid experience with other micros or other programming languages, for whom the provided
documentation makes perfect sense because they have a frame of reference to draw on.
The other group, (myself included) is learning this by the "seat of our pants", finding ourselves easily lost
in the documentation. I have both the availble books on my desk. They are constantly re-read, and
as I explore and ask questions, they are starting to make sense. I am working on a true beginners
text (slowly) and have even set my "Microcomputer" book aside for that project.
When I purchased my first Protoboard, I didn't realize that support was top-notch in the forums.
I picked up a phone and called Parallax and proceeded to ask a very simple question about the
power layout of the board. I was told something to the effect that the Propeller was geared more
toward those who have prior experience with other products, like that of the BASIC stamp.
(The person I talked to was polite in spite of the newbie question, and answered it.)
Of course being the bull-headed Dutchman I am, I wasn't about to let that stop me, I had after-all
had at least a few hours experience with the PICAXE. [noparse]:)[/noparse] (BTW:Nice to see hippy over here)
I believe the Propeller product to be top-notch, and appropriate for all levels of user, but
we need to be patient with those who come behind us, and realize that not everyone
sees everything the way we do, perspectives world-wide will differ.
(You can even diagree with this diatribe if you want.. <smirk> [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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New to the Propeller?
Getting started with the Protoboard? - Propeller Cookbook
Got an SD card? - PropDOS
A Living Propeller FAQ - The Propeller Wiki
(Got the Knowledge? Got a Moment? Add something today!)
I have found that reasonable questions of even the most basic nature get answered here with no problems how reasonable they are depends generally on the work the questioner has put in.
I also think that those people that find themselves in arguments over and over again might consider the way in which they conduct themselves.
Graham
The buzz was then, and still is, very much like the Bay Area in the 1970's when the nature of home computers were being worked out in garages. Don't let some grumpy flame war·take that away.
Four perfectly acceptable reasons why a newbie asks a question that is frequently asked, and none of them have to do with laziness. You cannot blame somone for not knowing you have a tutorial if it takes a bit of digging to find it. At no point should we tell the person to RTFM or do anything to make them feel inadequate by asking the question. Are you upset that yet another newbie has asked a question·when it was already asked a few times in the last few weeks? Then don't answer the post, chances are you are not the only person with the information, so allow someone else who knows the answer·to reply in a neutral demeanor.
People's opinion of the Propeller is formed in part by thier perceived ability to get help when needed, and if they feel like they will be jumped on by asking simple questions, thier overall opinion of the Propeller declines, and we as a community suffer for this. Before I came to work for Parallax, I was a very active forum member. At the beginning I too sought to answer all questions I was capable of answering. After a while I became frustated answering the same types of questions over and over. What I did was to just move on, skip those questions I found frustrating to answer and because it was one of those questions that got asked and answered·frequently, there was without fail someone else who answered the question. I instead concentrated on those questions which where more difficult to answer, and everyone was happier as a result. So if you feel like bitting the head off an newbie because you feel like they are lazy, just stop and move on.
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 12/29/2007 8:31:45 PM GMT
I did not mean to slight your efforts at teaching Propeller assembly language and creating a helpful tutorial. I was thinking in terms of a conventional book, like some of those currently available for the SX processor both in paper and downloadable form.
The best solution is by far Paul's suggestion to let less experienced users answers simple questions so the can become more self-confident and maybe become expert too.
Also don't forget that not everyone talk english usually (I'm personnally French Canadian). So we not always understand everything at first read.
This forum is great, people are great and the propeller is the greatest ! Every new person that come here deserve our respect cause he has discover that!
I second Toley's opinion. One great product, One GREAT chip... and one heck of a forum.
I started from absolute zero... less than a year ago and I can now begin to see the light at the end of the tunnel... and most of that light comes from the style and content of the official documentation and the forum. AND that was after lurking about the hobby electronics marts for years and feeling totally left out.
And... I should also like to repeat... I was about a year late ordering Andre's book... Everyone needs to reference his wonderful book as often as possible, it will save everyone a lot of effort.
I love the interactions on the forum. I think we have to be sensitive to newbies but I love to see a good argument (keep it technical please[noparse]:)[/noparse] between the experts.
I can only guess what 2008 will bring.
Thanks to everyone on both sides of the Atlantic.
Happy New Year.
Rich
This forum is a tool to express your thoughts and ideas with others, and perhaps learn something along the way.... use the right tool for the right job and respect the thoughts of others.
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Beau Schwabe
IC Layout Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Beau Schwabe (Parallax)) : 12/30/2007 5:38:37 AM GMT
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- Rick