Hi all. I think that this is a really cool project. I would love to help, but my knowledge is very limited, and I am only 16.
The areas where I know the most are electronics, radiation/nuclear/particle physics, and a little bit of explosives.
I do not know enough of any of these areas to be of a real help, but I will try.
Brian Beckius said...
I did find a company that can expose electronics to radiation to see if they will make it.
I know of some people that operate fusion reactors. I can ask them if they could help.
They may also be able to help with the Van Allen problem.
I have a fairly good network, so I can ask around.
Let me know if there is anything that you guys want me to research.
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The pessimist is never disappointed.
Seth said...
Hi all. I think that this is a really cool project. I would love to help, but my knowledge is very limited, and I am only 16.
The areas where I know the most are electronics, radiation/nuclear/particle physics, and a little bit of explosives.
I do not know enough of any of these areas to be of a real help, but I will try.
Brian Beckius said...
I did find a company that can expose electronics to radiation to see if they will make it.
I know of some people that operate fusion reactors. I can ask them if they could help.
They may also be able to help with the Van Allen problem.
I have a fairly good network, so I can ask around.
Let me know if there is anything that you guys want me to research.
some thoughts... i agree that the rover does not have to be large for the tasks at hand. it will need to be a 4 wheel drive but not much power is really needed. the problem with conventional motors is that their power to wt ratio is not ideal for this project and the typical motor is not suitable for this rover. it just happens that i am developing a motor that will eliminate the current motors, gear drive, drive shafts and the wheels! the motor is very scalable and can be designed easily for high torque low rpm or ultra high rpm designs. since we are talking about a dusty area to traverse, we need larger wheels and i would recommend short wheel base (better turning) and wide (more stability) so basically square! my understanding of the rules suggests that the rover camera does not necessarily have to be HD. the HD can be at the base (lander). also we don't have to wonder far from the lander so it can be the higher power receiver/transmitter and the rover can have a very low power unit. both the base and the rover should have solar collectors but not the usual low efficiency ones we are used to. we need to get some high efficiency ones... they are not cheap! as for an antenna, what do you think about a mylar dish? it can be made to open and collapse and it weighs very little. the rover will be powered down until after landing so the only radiation worries will be on the surface. it just has to make it for two days i think. the base unit can do all the higher power tasks. the rover can be made with carbon fiber and will not have to be so strong due to smallness of the rover and the low gravity of the moon.
the circuit boards, shielding, and the structural parts of the rover have to be fully integrated to save on wt. i would not do the circuit board the normal way... i have a way that may work better... it is not exactly mass producible but with a little work it should work fine. i would have the traces on the frame. yes... i know it will short if it is aluminum... i have a special process. this will eliminate most of the wt of the board.
my casting setup should be ready to go by summer and i should be able to cast aluminum easily.
i have undergrad and grad degrees in Physics and Inorganic Chemistry and others but don't hold that against me! i have been building things most of my life and that is what i like to do the most.
it seems to me that the lander will be the more difficult part of this project. the rover can be relatively simple. the lander will have to be strong and withstand a lot more than the rover. by the way i would add spoon like tread to the wheel so it can float on the soft dust.
how hot is it going to get up there? there are some high temp polymers out there... i am thinking for frame and or the wheels. the bottom of the rover should be smooth like a sled so it can glide on the dust. basically this thing should be able to float and move on top of really fresh powdery snow like the stuff i ski!
A very fine example of the ingenuity of the human mind. Brilliant idea, I would love to join. I have experience with machining and manufacture, and a little electronics experience. My only drawback is that I live in Africa. I that is okay with you folks, then I would like to join in all the fun...!!!!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Why didn't I think of THAT!!!!
I organized the Jamesburg 30 meter dish rehabilitation project. The Jamesburg Dish was the West Coast portal for ATT/COMSAT for some 35 years. Carried the video of Armstrong's Moon Landing, and many other "Live via Satllite" world events.
We have been doing EME (Moon Bounce) communications for about a year now. 2 way voice SSB contacts are easy.
By serendipty, Jamesburg becomes much more important now, with a real application. Since the Lunar X prize announcement, we have studied the need for big dishes to pick up the very weak wide band video that is going to be required to be broadcast from the moon, in order to win the X prize of $20 million.
If you make assumptions about the power available at the moon rover for video broadcast, and say, 20 watts, you will be within about 10 db of what will evolve. Use that number and the path loss equations, frequencies used, and, assuming S band microwave, you will see how much gain you will need at the receiving end..... A ton.....Jamesburg, being a 30 meter dish, good to more than 10 ghz can easily supply the necessary gain. We have about 50 dbi gain at 1296. More gain as you go higher. Roughly 6 db more each time you double the frequency; That is, 2.4 ghz would be about 56 dbi gain. Jamesburg is in private hands, and is at high risk of being replaced with Ranchette housing, so we are hoping a competitor in the Xprize competion will buy or lease it for their communications needs. This has to happen soon, so the owner can stop his plans to demolish the dish and build Ranchette housing. Check out our website: http://www.jamesburgdish.org
hey guys, this thread is a dream come true for me, i love nothing more than to contribute successfully.
i have some questions and considerations that may be a bit lengthy(its almost 1:00AM)
does this thing have to be a rover?----can we jus throw a big javelin with collapsing tip to cusion high-speed fall, and stick in the crust(with depth-energy calculations for length of javalin(and you could use a javalin uC too, haha)) and have a small, stick-like bot do something(communicate to home first)? it seems a mobile bot would require waaayyy too much weight/technology/problems
getting up is nice, getting it down is nice, doing something once its down is nice, but can we correct errors in flight(automated guidence) and all that in under ten pounds or less? if weight is going to be an issue, you guys (hopefully 'we' in the future) are going to need to built everyhting on the micro-scale(all processors/circuits on one chip, very littel(size and quantity)·moving parts. this could also help the shielding problem, if you have less mass to shield, its easier. also, if you could integrate everything so its very very physically tough, could we fire a bullet/rocket instead of a multi-million-dollar rocket? or maybe high-altitude airplane release missle type.
i may be missing the point, but it seems so much easier to built small and inexpensive and than big and expensive. if we can carry out the bare minimums to get something to land and operate on the moon, i think video/travel/exploration/high-definition video and other relativly high-end NASA-level stuff is only going to add zeros to the cost.
sigh, yes, another idea, and in slight conflict with what i said earlier----take how the mars lander landed on a tetr-hedron of cusions.....maybe you could create a rover to roll itself by deflating and inflating or otherwise changing the size/shape of those cushions to roll itself. shock management ·+ travel control.
well, i need sleep, i just though id throw some ideas out there.
let me know if any of this is interesting
another quick idea, is it possible to create a magnetic field stable enough to run electronics and still pwerful enough to emulate the earth's magnetic field and radiation shielding properties?
Secondary radiation. I see someone already mentioning it. I believe there is more physics you guys should know in order to succeed in this project. I you are going to build a rover to sent to space, you better know your physics. On the iTunes music store there is a course called "Physics 10 - physics for future presidents", entire semesters downlodable for free. The course is from UC Berkeley university and requires little pre-knowlage. Secondary radiation and its mechanism are one of the covered topics of this course.
For comms, could you use a more passive system? Have a laser (maser, microwave) on earth, shoot it at the rover and have the rover control a mirror to modulate the reflected light (radiation)? Don't know how big things would have to be but if its possible it could save some weight. Maybe also some kind of setup like passive bugs.
Brian Beckius said...
Been busy all day checking on this rad hard thing , In digging threw some of nasa's docs I found that they don't allways use rad hard components if they want better performance . I can't find the exact amount of sheilding there are using , but I did find a company that can expose electronics to radiation to see if they will make it. Also I was looking at atmel's transmitter & receiver that was rad hard and I beleive the propeller can be programed the same way that they are
The January 2008 issue of Circuit Cellar has an article about designing a radiation hardened, Z180 class processor·using an Actel radiation hardened FPGA.· The FPGA uses triple redundant circuitry for each flip flop.· Then the finite state machines that drive the processor are designed and coded so that a single bit error can't put the processor into an unrecoverable state.
Bubblehead,
They are about $150,000 a piece , we need 3 of them. I won't lie to you , I love the Prop (and I'm cheap)and have been trying as hard as I can to shield it for the van allen. Nasa has a ton of documents on making normal electronics make it in space .
Brian
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Thank's Brian
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..."··Albert Einstein
Most of the radiation in the Van Allen has a charge to it. Would it not be possible to create a magnetic field that deflects the radiation? That is how the earth does it.
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The pessimist is never disappointed.
Brian Beckius said...
Bubblehead,
They are about $150,000 a piece , we need 3 of them. I won't lie to you , I love the Prop (and I'm cheap)and have been trying as hard as I can to shield it for the van allen. Nasa has a ton of documents on making normal electronics make it in space .
Brian
The FPGA's are $150K? Ouch.
Are you thinking of using redundant Props, or·redundant cogs on one prop, or a combination of the two?
Bubblehead,
Right now I have fifteen iron's in the fire , There is some good info on nasa's website and amsat is sending none RadHard stuff on thier newest sat that is going to fly into the Van Allen every orbit. It would be greatly appreciated if you would like to do some research and see what you come up with.
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Thank's Brian
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..."··Albert Einstein
How is it that a perfect vacuum, about 16 psi, would cause a chip to explode???
The die area of a chip would be a circle of about 1/4 inch diameter, encapsulating an area perhaps 1/16 of a square inch.... a pressure of 1 pound. You will put more force on the package pushing it into a socket!
Comments
The areas where I know the most are electronics, radiation/nuclear/particle physics, and a little bit of explosives.
I do not know enough of any of these areas to be of a real help, but I will try.
I know of some people that operate fusion reactors. I can ask them if they could help.
They may also be able to help with the Van Allen problem.
I have a fairly good network, so I can ask around.
Let me know if there is anything that you guys want me to research.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
The pessimist is never disappointed.
Hi all. I think that this is a really cool project. I would love to help, but my knowledge is very limited, and I am only 16.
The areas where I know the most are electronics, radiation/nuclear/particle physics, and a little bit of explosives.
I do not know enough of any of these areas to be of a real help, but I will try.
I know of some people that operate fusion reactors. I can ask them if they could help.
They may also be able to help with the Van Allen problem.
I have a fairly good network, so I can ask around.
Let me know if there is anything that you guys want me to research.
welcome aboard :-)
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Thank's Brian
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lunarX/
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
http://www.pldesignline.com/blogs/index.jhtml#204204034
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Thank's Brian
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lunarX/
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
We are up to 24 members ,we could use all the help we can get .
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Thank's Brian
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lunarX/
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
some thoughts... i agree that the rover does not have to be large for the tasks at hand. it will need to be a 4 wheel drive but not much power is really needed. the problem with conventional motors is that their power to wt ratio is not ideal for this project and the typical motor is not suitable for this rover. it just happens that i am developing a motor that will eliminate the current motors, gear drive, drive shafts and the wheels! the motor is very scalable and can be designed easily for high torque low rpm or ultra high rpm designs. since we are talking about a dusty area to traverse, we need larger wheels and i would recommend short wheel base (better turning) and wide (more stability) so basically square! my understanding of the rules suggests that the rover camera does not necessarily have to be HD. the HD can be at the base (lander). also we don't have to wonder far from the lander so it can be the higher power receiver/transmitter and the rover can have a very low power unit. both the base and the rover should have solar collectors but not the usual low efficiency ones we are used to. we need to get some high efficiency ones... they are not cheap! as for an antenna, what do you think about a mylar dish? it can be made to open and collapse and it weighs very little. the rover will be powered down until after landing so the only radiation worries will be on the surface. it just has to make it for two days i think. the base unit can do all the higher power tasks. the rover can be made with carbon fiber and will not have to be so strong due to smallness of the rover and the low gravity of the moon.
the circuit boards, shielding, and the structural parts of the rover have to be fully integrated to save on wt. i would not do the circuit board the normal way... i have a way that may work better... it is not exactly mass producible but with a little work it should work fine. i would have the traces on the frame. yes... i know it will short if it is aluminum... i have a special process. this will eliminate most of the wt of the board.
my casting setup should be ready to go by summer and i should be able to cast aluminum easily.
i have undergrad and grad degrees in Physics and Inorganic Chemistry and others but don't hold that against me! i have been building things most of my life and that is what i like to do the most.
it seems to me that the lander will be the more difficult part of this project. the rover can be relatively simple. the lander will have to be strong and withstand a lot more than the rover. by the way i would add spoon like tread to the wheel so it can float on the soft dust.
how hot is it going to get up there? there are some high temp polymers out there... i am thinking for frame and or the wheels. the bottom of the rover should be smooth like a sled so it can glide on the dust. basically this thing should be able to float and move on top of really fresh powdery snow like the stuff i ski!
this ends the current storm in my head!
cheers
Get your butt over to the yahoo group, If we can make the rover small enough ,I think I hooked a ride for next summer.
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Thank's Brian
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lunarX/
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
A very fine example of the ingenuity of the human mind. Brilliant idea, I would love to join. I have experience with machining and manufacture, and a little electronics experience. My only drawback is that I live in Africa. I that is okay with you folks, then I would like to join in all the fun...!!!!
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Why didn't I think of THAT!!!!
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Thank's Brian
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lunarX/
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
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Thank's Brian
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/lunarX/
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
Just Joined the forum, and thread.
I organized the Jamesburg 30 meter dish rehabilitation project. The Jamesburg Dish was the West Coast portal for ATT/COMSAT for some 35 years. Carried the video of Armstrong's Moon Landing, and many other "Live via Satllite" world events.
We have been doing EME (Moon Bounce) communications for about a year now. 2 way voice SSB contacts are easy.
By serendipty, Jamesburg becomes much more important now, with a real application. Since the Lunar X prize announcement, we have studied the need for big dishes to pick up the very weak wide band video that is going to be required to be broadcast from the moon, in order to win the X prize of $20 million.
If you make assumptions about the power available at the moon rover for video broadcast, and say, 20 watts, you will be within about 10 db of what will evolve. Use that number and the path loss equations, frequencies used, and, assuming S band microwave, you will see how much gain you will need at the receiving end..... A ton.....Jamesburg, being a 30 meter dish, good to more than 10 ghz can easily supply the necessary gain. We have about 50 dbi gain at 1296. More gain as you go higher. Roughly 6 db more each time you double the frequency; That is, 2.4 ghz would be about 56 dbi gain. Jamesburg is in private hands, and is at high risk of being replaced with Ranchette housing, so we are hoping a competitor in the Xprize competion will buy or lease it for their communications needs. This has to happen soon, so the owner can stop his plans to demolish the dish and build Ranchette housing. Check out our website: http://www.jamesburgdish.org
Best.... Sparky599
Did you see the plug in PLD ?
http://www.pldesignline.com/blogs/index.jhtml;jsessionid=S5RHTMONDROUWQSNDLPCKH0CJUNN2JVN#205203022
Brian
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Thank's Brian
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website
i have some questions and considerations that may be a bit lengthy(its almost 1:00AM)
does this thing have to be a rover?----can we jus throw a big javelin with collapsing tip to cusion high-speed fall, and stick in the crust(with depth-energy calculations for length of javalin(and you could use a javalin uC too, haha)) and have a small, stick-like bot do something(communicate to home first)? it seems a mobile bot would require waaayyy too much weight/technology/problems
getting up is nice, getting it down is nice, doing something once its down is nice, but can we correct errors in flight(automated guidence) and all that in under ten pounds or less? if weight is going to be an issue, you guys (hopefully 'we' in the future) are going to need to built everyhting on the micro-scale(all processors/circuits on one chip, very littel(size and quantity)·moving parts. this could also help the shielding problem, if you have less mass to shield, its easier. also, if you could integrate everything so its very very physically tough, could we fire a bullet/rocket instead of a multi-million-dollar rocket? or maybe high-altitude airplane release missle type.
i may be missing the point, but it seems so much easier to built small and inexpensive and than big and expensive. if we can carry out the bare minimums to get something to land and operate on the moon, i think video/travel/exploration/high-definition video and other relativly high-end NASA-level stuff is only going to add zeros to the cost.
sigh, yes, another idea, and in slight conflict with what i said earlier----take how the mars lander landed on a tetr-hedron of cusions.....maybe you could create a rover to roll itself by deflating and inflating or otherwise changing the size/shape of those cushions to roll itself. shock management
·+ travel control.
well, i need sleep, i just though id throw some ideas out there.
let me know if any of this is interesting
thnks!,
Adonis
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Thank's Brian
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website
www.propelX.com
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Thank's Brian
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website
·I never did thank you for this info, as I write this I am making parts for the "EAGEL" satellite , COOL !
Brian
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Thank's Brian
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website
Steven
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Whit+
"We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney
·One of our guys has done alot of work to try to use a laser ,I don't think he came up with a good system.
Whit,
·Thanks
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Thank's Brian
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website
Post Edited (Brian Beckius) : 2/8/2008 11:06:23 PM GMT
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The pessimist is never disappointed.
They are about $150,000 a piece , we need 3 of them. I won't lie to you , I love the Prop (and I'm cheap)and have been trying as hard as I can to shield it for the van allen. Nasa has a ton of documents on making normal electronics make it in space .
Brian
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Thank's Brian
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website
Post Edited (Brian Beckius) : 2/6/2008 6:14:22 AM GMT
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The pessimist is never disappointed.
Steven
Are you thinking of using redundant Props, or·redundant cogs on one prop, or a combination of the two?
Right now I have fifteen iron's in the fire , There is some good info on nasa's website and amsat is sending none RadHard stuff on thier newest sat that is going to fly into the Van Allen every orbit. It would be greatly appreciated if you would like to do some research and see what you come up with.
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Thank's Brian
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website
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Thank's Brian
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website
Post Edited (Brian Beckius) : 2/12/2008 2:04:00 AM GMT
How is it that a perfect vacuum, about 16 psi, would cause a chip to explode???
The die area of a chip would be a circle of about 1/4 inch diameter, encapsulating an area perhaps 1/16 of a square inch.... a pressure of 1 pound. You will put more force on the package pushing it into a socket!
Cheers,
Peter (pjv)
This is why I like this forum. Just when I think the experts have spoken,I get a glimmer of light
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Thank's Brian
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website