This might sound really stupid , but being William brought it up. Is there anyway to use all that heat during the lunar day to slow the craft down ? With almost no gravity and no atmospere ,does the heat still cause a lifting affect ??
As I've been told on this forum, there are no stupid questions.
To answer you, I don't think it would make a difference, we need to slow down from about 1,000 m/s. I like the idea of kinetic stopping. We can slow down, but then finish it off with a controlled crash.
That's a good question. We're dealing with an environment where almost no atmospheric pressure exists, therefore any sort of resistance based descent (a parachute, for example) is out of the question.
We'd almost certainly need to carry some other solid fuel on the rover's landing apparatus to either produce reverse thrust to slow the landing, or to burn in order generate enough gas to inflate air cushions surrounding the rover. And if we went with an air cushion to soften the landing, the rover would need to be able to get out of the center once they've deflated.
I think that safely landing the rover on the surface is going to be the most difficult part of designing this process.
Post Edited (Whelzorn) : 11/16/2007 4:28:08 AM GMT
Brian: I'm pretty sure the airbag "engines" have an oxidizer in the fuel mixture, so I'd assume they would work in space. But I'm actually not sure what the chemical reaction is that produces the nitrogen gas is.
Whelzorn said...
Brian: I'm pretty sure the airbag "engines" have an oxidizer in the fuel mixture, so I'd assume they would work in space. But I'm actually not sure what the chemical reaction is that produces the nitrogen gas is.
By my understanding, an airbag (the cartridge) is two dry powders mixed together which is initiated with some type of electrical ignitor. It would have to be an oxidized mixture to expand as fast as it does. I do know that an airbag will cause burns, so whatever type of reaction it is, the result is hot.
I'm sure a little research on the internet would give·clues to what the reaction is a result of.
A rocket with an airbag......LOL.......that is quite funny. Never thought of that when the Mars Rover was "crashed" on Mars suface.
Whelzorn said...
Brian: I'm pretty sure the airbag "engines" have an oxidizer in the fuel mixture, so I'd assume they would work in space. But I'm actually not sure what the chemical reaction is that produces the nitrogen gas is.
By my understanding, an airbag (the cartridge) is two dry powders mixed together which is initiated with some type of electrical ignitor. It would have to be an oxidized mixture to expand as fast as it does. I do know that an airbag will cause burns, so whatever type of reaction it is, the result is hot.
I'm sure a little research on the internet would give·clues to what the reaction is a result of.
A rocket with an airbag......LOL.......that is quite funny. Never thought of that when the Mars Rover was "crashed" on Mars suface.
James L
If you go out to your car and find your air bag missing , don't call me.
Well , I just received the Xprize entry packet . There are 300 groups already on board , so It's time to take this under the covers . I'm sending everybody that posted a pm with my email , we will use this until I get a private forum up and running (Ya, even you William .We need all sides of the coin) I would really like to see Mike Green jump on board (he could hit the moon with one hand tied behind his back), and all of Parallax's employee's are welcome as well . I (we) intend to use as many Parallax's products (or modified version's) as we can in this project. I will pull this post back up every week or so to try to generate some more interest(I'm thinking we will need about 250 people to make this happen).My wife asked what new projects I was working on, I responed " we are going to the moon" , she replied "when should I start packing".
Oh, I was just about to post my latest thoughts on how to do the de-orbit and landing burns.· I also had some thoughts about how to cushion the payload to survive a 600 foot drop to the lunar surface.· Brian, I hope you have some ideas on how to raise the money for the launch vehicle.· I would hate for the 250 members of the group to have to put up $10,000 each.
Dave,
I'll worry about the money (I seem to do that every day of my life any how). Things always have a way of working out. I've never in my life thought that I would try to send a rover to the moon, but lets ROCK !!!
Brian Beckius said...
Dave,
I'll worry about the money (I seem to do that every day of my life any how). Things always have a way of working out. I've never in my life thought that I would try to send a rover to the moon, but lets ROCK !!!
I can probably come up with the funding.....if the group comes up with a viable plan to land a rover on the lunar surface.
So if you are on the teetering edge of a decision......join the group.
I have many contacts....but they will want to see real proposals......not far fetched schemes.
James,
My daughter looked up in the sky tonight and said, "look Dad, there's the moon, your favorite place". That's my inspiration, what's yours ? Let's make this a reality, at the very least a project to make the next generation dream a little bigger.
Brian Beckius said...
James,
My daughter looked up in the sky tonight and said, "look Dad, there's the moon, your favorite place". That's my inspiration, what's yours ? Let's make this a reality, at the very least a project to make the next generation dream a little bigger.
You know.....that is a good question.
The only answer I have....I would like to say, "I helped do that!"
I think people are so stuck on just surviving today's world....they have little time to dream. I'm glad children can still dream.
I find many adult's do not. At least most of the ones I encounter day to day.
Also a group of people working to do·a challenging task builds lasting friendship (if they don't hate each other when it's done).· :-)
I like where this is going.
Anyone who's into space stuff has seen some bad idea recent;y.
Here's a question, do transmitters that work here have the same range, or better in space?
How about we get to the moon, and then the solar panels come out to power the ion or similar engine to land us?
What does it take to sign up for the prize?
Bob Cringely has been giving weekly updates to Team Cringely's progress towards winning the Lunar X prize in his weekly column. This weeks columns talks about how International Traffic in Arms Regulations are disrupting the process www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2007/pulpit_20071116_003446.html
Tony Boersma said...
I like where this is going.
Anyone who's into space stuff has seen some bad idea recent;y.
Here's a question, do transmitters that work here have the same range, or better in space?
How about we get to the moon, and then the solar panels come out to power the ion or similar engine to land us?
What does it take to sign up for the prize?
Tony, ·My biggest question is how heavy the transmitter is going to be. I don't beleive that the rover has to built out of fancey hight buck·metals , you can machine parts to be light weight and strong with out spending a arm and a leg ( I'd really like to see that $10,000 toilet seat that the airforce has). Heres a copy of the registration application, also we need a name.
As you'll see our first test is to raise $10,000 for the entry fee.
10 grand, that's steep. I guess it's to keep the idof iots away, they don't want a California governor election sort of situation. As for a name, I'd probably pick something lame. Maybe something parallax themed, or star wars. I love me some star wars.
T
Tony Boersma said...
Here's a question, do transmitters that work here have the same range, or better in space?
This sounds like a job for Friis transmission equation!
but basically, signals don't attenuate in a vacuum. But they do scatter. So directional antennae are a must. I'm sure that we'll end up having to buy a remote link for the purpose unless we find a radio signals engineer.
edit: yeah, it looks like I've got my terms mixed up a bit. Attenuation encompasses both scattering and absorption.
Post Edited (Whelzorn) : 11/18/2007 10:12:45 PM GMT
wow, i just got a bs2 and working on a rover and stuck on making an h-bridge while u guys are on a forum talking about launching a robot to the moon and winning the luner X prooce, wow. WEll i would help but im just a 15 old kid in h.s. working on a rover, lol but i do wich u guys alot of luck on this!!!
·· This is just a minor fabrication point (probably the extent of the help I can give), but if you're going to make liquid-fueled landing engines, I would suggest electroforming them out of nickel-cobalt with silicon carbide whisker reinforcement. I work at a metal finishing business and I've seen this described in trade journals a couple of times. The main reason this is not often done is that the whiskers cost a couple hundred dollars a pound, but for this application they would probably reduce the final cost of the project. Before the discovery of nickel aluminide alloys with sufficient ductility, these whisker reinforced alloys were considered for the next generation of jet engines. They have better high temperature performance and are lighter than single crystal superalloys. Plus it's a lot easier to machine a mandrel out of your choice of material and plate over it than to machine an extremely hard brittle superalloy.
Guys, ·I machined for 18 hours today, will this work for a test rover for now ? I've been working on this for about a year ,but the rover deal got a fire under my butt.
Dave Hein said...
Oh, I was just about to post my latest thoughts on how to do the de-orbit and landing burns.· I also had some thoughts about how to cushion the payload to survive a 600 foot drop to the lunar surface.· Brian, I hope you have some ideas on how to raise the money for the launch vehicle.· I would hate for the 250 members of the group to have to put up $10,000 each.
Dave, ·If I could get 250 people to give me·$10,000 , I would be headed to Mexico and not the moon
zemkacz said...
wow, i just got a bs2 and working on a rover and stuck on making an h-bridge while u guys are on a forum talking about launching a robot to the moon and winning the luner X prooce, wow. WEll i would help but im just a 15 old kid in h.s. working on a rover, lol but i do wich u guys alot of luck on this!!!
Zemkacz, ·We need all the help we can get. This is going to take a lot of people, granted some of the jobs won’t be great. If you want to help out, good!
·· This is just a minor fabrication point (probably the extent of the help I can give), but if you're going to make liquid-fueled landing engines, I would suggest electroforming them out of nickel-cobalt with silicon carbide whisker reinforcement. I work at a metal finishing business and I've seen this described in trade journals a couple of times. The main reason this is not often done is that the whiskers cost a couple hundred dollars a pound, but for this application they would probably reduce the final cost of the project. Before the discovery of nickel aluminide alloys with sufficient ductility, these whisker reinforced alloys were considered for the next generation of jet engines. They have better high temperature performance and are lighter than single crystal superalloys. Plus it's a lot easier to machine a mandrel out of your choice of material and plate over it than to machine an extremely hard brittle superalloy.
-phar
Phar, ·Thanks for the info ,we need every possible form of help we can get. Your welcome to join in·. Like I told zemkacz· ,not all the jobs will be great.
Comments
Sorry, off topic, but it's a cool name.
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Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
To answer you, I don't think it would make a difference, we need to slow down from about 1,000 m/s. I like the idea of kinetic stopping. We can slow down, but then finish it off with a controlled crash.
Maybe a grappling hook on a bungee?
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Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
We'd almost certainly need to carry some other solid fuel on the rover's landing apparatus to either produce reverse thrust to slow the landing, or to burn in order generate enough gas to inflate air cushions surrounding the rover. And if we went with an air cushion to soften the landing, the rover would need to be able to get out of the center once they've deflated.
I think that safely landing the rover on the surface is going to be the most difficult part of designing this process.
Post Edited (Whelzorn) : 11/16/2007 4:28:08 AM GMT
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Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
Here is my logo proposal...
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Whit+
"We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney
Post Edited (Whit) : 11/16/2007 1:21:22 PM GMT
I'm sure a little research on the internet would give·clues to what the reaction is a result of.
A rocket with an airbag......LOL.......that is quite funny. Never thought of that when the Mars Rover was "crashed" on Mars suface.
James L
·Nice job on the logo , I'll have to send that to Ken and see if he'll spot us 10 million just to get started :-)
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Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
Post Edited (Brian Beckius) : 11/17/2007 3:54:11 AM GMT
I'll worry about the money (I seem to do that every day of my life any how). Things always have a way of working out. I've never in my life thought that I would try to send a rover to the moon, but lets ROCK !!!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
So if you are on the teetering edge of a decision......join the group.
I have many contacts....but they will want to see real proposals......not far fetched schemes.
James L
My daughter looked up in the sky tonight and said, "look Dad, there's the moon, your favorite place". That's my inspiration, what's yours ? Let's make this a reality, at the very least a project to make the next generation dream a little bigger.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
Post Edited (Brian Beckius) : 11/17/2007 6:52:13 AM GMT
The only answer I have....I would like to say, "I helped do that!"
I think people are so stuck on just surviving today's world....they have little time to dream. I'm glad children can still dream.
I find many adult's do not. At least most of the ones I encounter day to day.
Also a group of people working to do·a challenging task builds lasting friendship (if they don't hate each other when it's done).· :-)
James L
We are going to the moon. I'll find the money that has no strings attached, It's the only way that everybody will get a little payday.
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Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
Anyone who's into space stuff has seen some bad idea recent;y.
Here's a question, do transmitters that work here have the same range, or better in space?
How about we get to the moon, and then the solar panels come out to power the ion or similar engine to land us?
What does it take to sign up for the prize?
·My biggest question is how heavy the transmitter is going to be. I don't beleive that the rover has to built out of fancey hight buck·metals , you can machine parts to be light weight and strong with out spending a arm and a leg ( I'd really like to see that $10,000 toilet seat that the airforce has). Heres a copy of the registration application, also we need a name.
As you'll see our first test is to raise $10,000 for the entry fee.
PS: heres my moto ,KISS (keep it simple stupid)
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Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
Post Edited (Brian Beckius) : 11/17/2007 4:21:07 PM GMT
T
but basically, signals don't attenuate in a vacuum. But they do scatter. So directional antennae are a must. I'm sure that we'll end up having to buy a remote link for the purpose unless we find a radio signals engineer.
edit: yeah, it looks like I've got my terms mixed up a bit. Attenuation encompasses both scattering and absorption.
Post Edited (Whelzorn) : 11/18/2007 10:12:45 PM GMT
-phar
·I machined for 18 hours today, will this work for a test rover for now ? I've been working on this for about a year ,but the rover deal got a fire under my butt.
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Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
Post Edited (Brian Beckius) : 11/18/2007 6:29:59 AM GMT
·If I could get 250 people to give me·$10,000 , I would be headed to Mexico and not the moon
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Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
·We need all the help we can get. This is going to take a lot of people, granted some of the jobs won’t be great. If you want to help out, good!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)
·Thanks for the info ,we need every possible form of help we can get. Your welcome to join in·. Like I told zemkacz· ,not all the jobs will be great.
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Thank's Brian
www.truckwiz.com
·"Imagination is more important than knowledge..." ·· Albert Einstein
http://www.diycalculator.com/subroutines.shtml· My favorite website ( Bet you can't guess why)