Need input on how to get CHINA involved

grasshopper

I am straight out of college and already running the electronics department at the company I work for. I designed a product with the Propeller to hopefully replace our current outdated and overpriced unit that employs the Rabbit module RCM2130. My question stems from reading a different post and is as follows; where can I get an overseas company to assemble my products? Currently I have an American outfit doing the assembly but at $35.00 a board it is costly. I wish to have 200 - 1000 boards made; is this number to small?

Please give me your pros and con’s about overseas assemblies.

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)

Sandbox thread?

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Buttons . . . check. Dials . . . check. Switches . . . check. Little colored lights . . . check.

— Calvin, of 'Calvin and Hobbes.

Tony Boersma

I would think that 1,000 would be too small for any overseas manufacturer to see a substantial reduction in cost for you, I guess it depends on shipping and how fast you need it. What is the per board price at 1,000?
T

grasshopper

A 1,000 run me about $30.00 each without parts. Parts would be an additional $21,000

I know there must be a better price out there.

parts-man73

related to a similar recent thread... the value of the dollar in relation to foreign currency is making overseas products and services not as great of a deal as it once was. They still don't have as many regulations as US companies, as far as minimum wage, environmental concerns, health insurance, child labor laws, etc etc so that helps reduce their costs enough to make it hard for US companies to compete. Not a level playing field.

What kind of boards are these? SMT components? through-hole? a little of both?

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Brian

uController.com - home of SpinStudio

deSilva

As a point of reference: we were able to get good quality low volume (<100) PCBs from China, 100x100 mm, double sided, through-hole @ 5 Euro each. Fully assembled boards are much more tricky and reported to have quality defect... But this is just second hand information, no personal experience

Ken Peterson

In our experience, you get what you pay for. If you get a really cheap price, expect to spend a lot of time debugging and finding errors. Also, fixing or replacing stuff after it goes to the customer is not only costly, but can cost you future business.

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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?

Timothy D. Swieter

China is a viable option for fabrication, manufacturing PCBs, and assembly. I moved to Hong Kong 6 months ago and one of my job duties is searching out vendors and building relationships with them for such work as described above. Our move to do more work in China has had a positive impact on both our building of control systems for theme parks and designing specialty lighting. Our company has learned that a time investment is involved to get to know the vendor and to build trust. One must also be very very clear in the documentation with what is wanted from the end product, how does it look, what tests need to be run, etc. Providing a sample of the finished work is a MUST. Having visibility into the vendor and to be next to them while the work is being performed is a must, that is one reason why I moved to HK.

In the future I hope to post in the Sandbox thread about the SEG Plaze electronics market. It is really something to see!

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Timothy D. Swieter
tdswieter.com

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One little spark of imagination is all it takes for an idea to explode

G

One of our business lines is to arrange turnkey products including assembly/test of the PCBs from prototype quantities to bulk ones. If you send the GERBER files of the PCB and the bill of materials , I can give you a quotation. Please send me a personal e-mail including the initial quantity, requested test procedures , delivery schedule etc. with the a.m. files - i.e. GERBER and BOM - , I will return you asap.

Best regards.

Gokhan Dincer

INFOGATE - Era Bilgi Sistemleri Ltd. / Turkiye

e-mail: infogate@infogate.org

web: http://www.infogate.org

Drone

I've seen quite a few people saying they use Gold Phoenix in China. www.goldphoenixpcb.biz/
I can't say anything about them personally as I've never done business with them. But like most things in life, you get what you pay for. you might want to shop around in the USA a bit more. I would think advanced assembly automation has leveled the field somewhat in terms of the US vs. overseas.

Good Luck, David

Bean

Commication is difficult with China. Because of cultural differences it seems that simple things are hard to get across. They tend to not ask question when they don't understand something, and also will "say" they understand even when then don't. They don't want to look dumb, so they just say they understand even though they don't.

It can take many back and forth's to get things right. I think that is why 1000 pcs is not enough quantity. It could take 100 pcs just to get things right. It's not worth the hassle for 1000 pcs.

If you don't need them right away you might ask Brian [noparse][[/noparse]brian (at) altitudeap.com] about doing the assembly. He assembles all of my boards at www.hittconsulting.com .

Bean.

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My goal is to live forever...Or die trying.
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www.hittconsulting.com
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Ken Gracey

Hey Grasshopper,

We've been manufacturing certain products in China for eight years, and in the last two years we've set up a company in Hong Kong and China for this purpose. In fact, we have relocated Parallax staff and family to Hengli, China. You may remember Aristides.·This is a significant step for a company of our size, but it proved imperative when the volume grew. I'll tell you what I have learned:

• Your cost savings can be 40-70%, compared to CA manufacturing costs.
• You will only be able to achieve manufacturing in China by being there, or visiting frequently. Suppliers are very disinterested in volumes less than 10K, but you can certainly order 1K units if you're willing to properly support them. E-mail won't work. Face time is everything.
• No amount of test procedures and pictures you provide ensure they·will do the job the way you want them to. You need to sit on their production line and see it properly implemented.
• Stay away from specialty components, or be prepared to consign them. In the quantity you discussed the supplier will buy the components from the Shenzhen markets, as they are too low volume to go direct to manufacturers. Popcorn parts are no problem, but some specialty semiconductors from western suppliers can be hard to find in China.·
• Copies of·components are common.
• Suppliers must check reels of caps and resistors to make sure they were not·desoldered from some other product.·
• If you consign specialty parts to your Chinese partner for use in your product, you will encounter many problems trying to bring ICs into China from Hong Kong. The best approach is to ship to Hong Kong - a free port - and hire a skilled forwarder to bring them to China. Sometimes we carry components over the border, but this has become risky and expensive if you are caught.·Once they're taking your components away all you can think about is getting your passport back·- forget about·the parts.·
• Ordering PCBs is difficult. Quality can vary, from batch to batch, and from supplier to supplier.
• They'll treat you like a king when you visit, but forget about what you wanted them to do when you leave. See second bullet above.
• You can print a book in China, ship it by air to the USA on a 747, and still·pay half the price of a domestic purchase. Quality can be·very high, too.·Globalization wastes jet fuel. We usually ship in container.
• What you save in costs you may add in management time, especially if it is a one-shot assembly (not even an option, in my opinion).
• Metalwork is a challenge for many reasons.
• The first time you work with them, the second shipment may use different parts than the first shipment. Be prepared for surprises. See second bullet above.
• If there is a Chinese market for what you have designed, and they've got the IP to make it without you, you have just handed them the "rights" to copy it and ship the same thing out another door. Our IP always stays at home in the USA.

With proper management you will be truly impressed. We manufacture in Rocklin and in China, and we've learned a lot from seeing how they operate. It's a fact of business these days that China has a·necessary place in electronics manufacturing. We got started with our Chinese partners simply by asking around, then visiting them, and finally partnering with a particular person.

And none of the above is a big secret. Just because you've been told·some tricks doesn't mean it's any easier. It's all about effort, time, communication, travel, and mutual understanding/respect.

Want to see some pictures from last week?

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Ken Gracey (Parallax)) : 10/25/2007 5:48:17 AM GMT

Max Wooden

I personally would love to see some photos! I have been fascinated with manufacturing for as long as I can remember.
Grasshopper, you may be interested in reading Bunnie's series of blogs on the manufacturing process in China. www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?cat=7

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Max Wooden
Reedley, California

Timothy D. Swieter

Ken - extermely well said. After living here for 6 months, meeting suppliers, checking out production, doing product design and fabrication I agree 100% with everything you said. I wonder how much this advice sinks into those that haven't been here to experience the hardship and surprises? Let me know next time a team from Parallax comes over to HK/China, I would love to treat you all to dinner and share 'war' stories.

I second Max's recommendation of Bunnie's blog. That blog has some great advice, insights and pictures. Wonderful learning material it is.

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Timothy D. Swieter
tdswieter.com

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One little spark of imagination is all it takes for an idea to explode

ThePenguinMaster

Ok I’m going to try not to be a dick about this but you hit a nerve for me.. I work in a manufacturing environment in the us and it is sad to see what is happening to America and the industrial power that was so powerful at some point in the past. Things are falling apart here because of outsourcing. I know it’s cheaper but it rapes the American economy and takes so much away. Did you know that you can not buy a bearing that’s made in America? You have to buy from Taiwan or china. They have successfully monopolized the market and the technology no longer exists in America. We can’t even make a bearing anymore. It would take years of r&d to build and proof out the machinery needed just to make the bearings. America is selling everything to china and we are loosing badly. As you noticed, the value of the dollar is steadily declining over the last year, houses aren’t selling and you might save a few hundreds sending things over seas, but when the economy goes to hell over here you’re going to be paying thousands more for things like groceries and other living expenses. The cost of living is going to rapidly increase. This is all because too many people want to save money by sending work elsewhere. It is Americas own greed that is killing itself. One company I look up to is HAAS automation. They make CNC machines, and they do it well. All their machines are 100% American made (electronic controllers are all custom built at the factory) castings, motors, materials, all American. Not only are they domestic, but they are also the best on the market. There is no better, and if you ask me, there needs to be more companies like them.

ohararp

There are tons of assembly houses here in the states.· I am in discussion with http://circuittec.com/
·to get some boards assembled.· They are qouting $10 per board.· They are not to difficult to assemble.· If you require bga's or qfn's then costs will go up dramatically.·

As far as US vs China...well I have found many·of the chinese pcb manufacturers to be extremely easy to deal with and the quality of the boards to be great (www.pcbcart.com).· Their prices are cheap and they offer customization of boards that other US manufacturers to do not offer and if they do they price them very uncompetitively.·

rjo_

Money is very powerful. Put money in the wrong place and things get ugly. Interacting with the West is a two edged sword for China and for Western businesses.

On the other hand, China has a huge potential for growth and a lot of catching up to do. Chinese markets will be progressively opened to Western trade to the extent that such trade is not disruptive to Chinese development. The more that we can trade with China, without causing problems for the Chinese, the better our prospects and theirs.

If you are going to use Chinese labor, even for a small pilot project, you should go to China. Travel around the major economic centers to find partners. Then make sure that your new partners are interested in the future of China. Finding partners with the right background is essential. You don't want to stumble up against vested interests and find your Chinese partner competing with the Chinese military.

PenguinMaster,

We used to make all of our own power-line down transformers too. I can show you a place about 15 miles from my home, where we used to make them. The ground is still contaminated. The people are still dying from exposure. All of those transformers are now manufactured outside of the U.S.. The company that produced the transformers no longer exists... so it can't very well be sued.

It would be a rather small step in going from a well thought out CNC mill to building an automated pick and place system. We can't blame the Chinese or the Japanese for our lack of innovation. There really should be no competition between our robots and their people... our robots should win. No mature economy should need "lousyt" jobs. But if we create a void... and then fail to educate our people sufficiently to fill that void... it still doesn't mean that we should seek to re-fill those voids with American labor.

Our trades now own and operate their own schools, but we haven't turned "automation specialist" into a trade yet. If we would do this, then you could pick up the phone, call your local trade organization, and find a journeyman, who could solve your production problems as part of his training. That's how I built a machine shop... I hired a journeyman. AND he did it right, because his future depended upon his performance.

In the meantime, I would encourage you to consider using one of the workshops that specialize in hiring and training "special" people. Every community has a workshop, which solicits work for handicapped people. Many of these people have physical handicaps, but are mentally normal. They can't find work unless that work is directed to them. Cheap labor and a wonderful resource... available in almost every community.




Rich

Fred Hawkins

ThePenguinMaster said...
Ok I’m going to try not to be a dick about this but you hit a nerve for me.. I work in a manufacturing environment in the us and it is sad to see what is happening to America and the industrial power that was so powerful at some point in the past. Things are falling apart here because of outsourcing. I know it’s cheaper but it rapes the American economy and takes so much away. Did you know that you can not buy a bearing that’s made in America? You have to buy from Taiwan or china. They have successfully monopolized the market and the technology no longer exists in America. We can’t even make a bearing anymore. It would take years of r&d to build and proof out the machinery needed just to make the bearings. America is selling everything to china and we are loosing badly. As you noticed, the value of the dollar is steadily declining over the last year, houses aren’t selling and you might save a few hundreds sending things over seas, but when the economy goes to hell over here you’re going to be paying thousands more for things like groceries and other living expenses. The cost of living is going to rapidly increase. This is all because too many people want to save money by sending work elsewhere. It is Americas own greed that is killing itself. One company I look up to is HAAS automation. They make CNC machines, and they do it well. All their machines are 100% American made (electronic controllers are all custom built at the factory) castings, motors, materials, all American. Not only are they domestic, but they are also the best on the market. There is no better, and if you ask me, there needs to be more companies like them.

Balanced against all of that is this: a single person (or a handful) with a good idea can get things done,·have·their product built·and use the internet to make a fortune. And barely even visit a bank until you have too much money to stash under the mattress.

rjo_

That's true... but see the other thread. You can go to THE Street with just a White Paper... no real product... make all of your money up front and leave all of the issues up to your chosen management.

People do it all of the time. It sounds a little immoral but it does work.

grasshopper

WOW

Thanks every one for your quick responses. I will have to consider all the ideas you all have presented to me.

Bean

The unions (or the people in the unions) have to get their heads on straight if they want U.S. manufacturing to succeed.

I live near Hershey PA, the "QA" workers are making over $30 an hour to watch candy bars go by. And they went on strike for more money. Now Hershey is moving manufacturing to Mexico. Can you blame them ?

Notice how when a newsperson interviews a striking worker they NEVER ask them how much they make ? Because if the general public knew how much they were making they would not support the striking workers. I'd like to see every picket sign show how much the person carrying it is making. Then see how many people blow their horn.

I'm not anti-union, nor am I against anyone making as much money as they possibly can. But I can't help but get the feeling the workers are saying "I want more money, I don't care if the company goes out of business."

The companies are to blame also, "GM" gave the union whatever it wanted and they (GM) didn't think about the long term consiquences of it. Then they cry that they are losing tons of money because they are basically still paying all the retired workers their salary. For the worker I say "that's a great deal if you can get it". To GM I say, "You have no one else to blame but yourself".

When a company is making tons of money the union says "They are taking advantage of us, we want a 20% pay increase". But when the company is losing money the union says "It's the CEO's fault, I can't take a 10% pay cut. I have bills". So it is the companies responsibilty to NOT give the workers a wage that the company cannot support in long term.

Recently we had a tour of a farm. They where explaining how automated milking has changed the farm. They were saying how you couldn't make money with 20 or 30 cows. You had to get 100 or 150 cows. Then they said the price of milk fell (big shock, ever heard of supply and demand). So the government basically "price fixed" milk. Any other business would have been left to it's own, some people would have left farming to do other jobs. But somehow the farmer think it is their God given right to farm, and the government should force people to pay more for milk so they can continue to farm. Again nothing against the farmers, but let the market decide. If you cannot make money farming, get another job. I love to play guitar, but I can't make a living at it and I don't lobby the government to force people to pay me to play guitar.

In the end, it is the consumer who makes the choice. And mostly they choose by price. If there is a demand for American made bearings, why don't you start a bearing manufacturing plant ? You can't make something people don't want (higher price, American made products) and expect to stay in business. Sorry that's just the way it is (or should be).

Sorry if I stepped on any toes, just my opinion...

Bean.

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My goal is to live forever...Or die trying.
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www.hittconsulting.com
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Ken Gracey

PenguinMaster, I concur with part of what you said and Haas is a good example. In fact, so is Parallax. We do all of our CNC machining in Parallax - on a Haas. All BASIC Stamps are made in our office in Rocklin, using very well-paid staff. Propellers wafers are made in Austria and packaged in Taiwan. The real core of our line lies right here in our office (California). But when it comes to something like a through-hole PCB, with little unique or protected IP, there are many reasons to cut costs when the quality is the same or even better. We're running our Chinese business with our own staff, so it's as honest and reliable as what we do in Rocklin. You'd be surprised at how well the staff is managed. Turnover is very rare.

We keep all the secrets right here, protected from copycats.

As far as we are concerned, it is not greed that drives our low-cost manufacturing. This is one point over which I disagree. It aids our ability to employ staff to fund product design, to pay for health benefits, to pay for 401(k), to buy a Haas CNC, to pay rent, to fund a Propeller design. It is also driven by the desire to have reasonably-priced sensors, boards and sub-assemblies that can be sold on a wider market via distribution.

Ken Gracey
Parallax, Inc.

StarMan

I have a small company that makes about 1500 circuit boards per year.· So far, my best solution for manufaturing boards is through a turnkey kitting company that has made the investment in reels of components and blank pcb's.· They produce a year's worth of boards at one time and stock them on their shelves under a blanket purchase order from me.·· Whenever I need boards, I just tell them how many and they send them over followed by a bill.· It costs me about a buck more per board than if I kitted everything myself but it's more than worth it.· I now have a JIT solution (for pcb's, anyway) and I have freed up much of my time and headaches.

Also, something I have considered but not acted on, is manufacturing in Mexico.· Here is a link I found recently. http://www.bcmanufacturing.com/index.html

Chris I.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

Hmm. 'Too bad they're not in southern Baja. That's a trip it'd be fun to write off!

-Phil

hippy

Bean (Hitt Consulting) said...
somehow the farmer think it is their God given right to farm, and the government should force people to pay more for milk so they can continue to farm. Again nothing against the farmers, but let the market decide. If you cannot make money farming, get another job.

The trouble in general comes when market forces take their course and the entirely industry folds because someone somewhere else can supply cheaper. It's great until the bubble bursts and you're at the mercy of a supplier who holds you to ransom because you've lost the ability to fulfil the need yourself.

In the example given by ThePenguinMaster; what happens if you need ball bearings to execute a war and you find your supplier is siding with your enemy ? There's an inherent necessity to protect essential production.

And what happens if market forces result in near everything being cheaper to import than home-produce ? What jobs are people going to do and how will they survive ?

ThePenguinMaster

i do agree that parallax is a kick *** company! i read how they do their milling in house and i like to see that sort of thing. this is one reason why i like parallax. and yes, the haas is an awesome machine! i hope they like it! theres nothing it cant do and no end to the features. im working in Florida right now, and florida has no unions that i know of. unions are damaging the economy, and that is why the company i work for moved form massachuses to florida. the edm programmer up there was asking way to much and only operated one machine. it was a little crazy. the problem is that everyone wants to be a millionare, even bus drivers. the problem is that conagra, ford, chevy and so many other plants have left the northern states. there are very few jobs in northewrn ohio and things are getting messy up there.theres no work neart the housing, and if you can find a good apartment in the warehouse district which is where all the jobs are, then its 1200 a month for a one room apartment. its a little riddiculious. i agree that we dont need people doing hard labor, here at CMI (where i work) i started off winding motors.. electric motors. if you have seen the inside of a brushless electric motor, you will see a stator that has a rotor with magnets in the enter, the wound outside part is the stator, and we wound those by hand. and it was a (expletive)! a lot of time was spent doing this, i moved to the cnc department and we merged with the company my dad was working for (hes an engineer). so my dad designed a machine that can wind 100 motors a day by one person, aas opposed to 30 a day per person. so what im saying is that we could have sent the work to china, and saved money. but what we did was keep the money in America, and working smart and making the motors better faster and cheaper. so maybe the solution isnt awalys making things with a cheaper labor fee, but thinking out side of the box and making it here, and making it smarter.

Graham Stabler

I think the propeller could really be great for small scale automation (working smart), the stuff that you could spend a fortune on but instead you buy a proto-board, even the RC servo (a decent one) could find a place rather than using a cylinder and control valve so simple "push item off the line" jobs.

I'm not that far off 3-axis interpolated trapezoidal stepper control on a $12 chip, its so cool and will beat in performance many commercial systems.

Graham

Tony Boersma

I work for an airline and before my current job I worked in Construction. Some union people are like work kryptonite.
I work with a guy who works really hard at not doing work. People like him are going to get his job outsourced to a 3rd party.
I've also seen union construction workers tear down work that was put up by non-union personell.

I understand unions, but I don't think that they deserve alot of what they get. Like $10 an hour to bag groceries? No out of pocket health care cost? I have to pay my share of my health insurance, i think everyone should also.
From what I've seen they also hinder personal growth.

I kind of like the politics involved here.
For the record I only buy Milk from Cows grown in America and all my robots use Parallax products.

Also, see the movie The Accountant (Directed by Ray McKinnon)
T

OzStamp

Hi GrassHopper

How big is this board ?·$30.00 for 1000 to me sounds like your getting screwed.
We just had our first batch of PropBus Development boards made here locally in Australia
Size 180 MM * 125MM· ( the PCB has 11 sub panels) and it was not anywhere near 30 bucks US$$

Qty was only 50 pcs..(details of this Prop development system will be posted here soon)
Just putting a couple together for testing ..

Locally here the PCB people get quotes from China if volume is high because they know
if they don't ..their customer will do it direct.

Just be aware of cheap components from Vendors that have their base in Asia
We have had some local people buy cheap and wow did it up being expensive
Counterfeit transistors and logic chips...( with free steak knives ... local joke)

Hey fellow proppers have a great weekend.
We are away for the rest of the weekend.. to get that clean·dirt bike ..dirty again..

Cheers

Ron· Australia

mirror

Also in Australia,

There's a local board assembler who employs mothers during school hours. He figured that 6 hours is about the limit of time someone can do that sort of work in a day. The mums drop their kids off at school, go to work, and then pick their kids up in the afternoon. Some mums only work particular days. He is NOT short of staff.

He can supply me an assembled board (in quantities of 50 or even less), often for less than what the components cost me (becuase he has managed to get some good buying power).

Over the past 15 years he's turned himself into a millionaire by working smarter.

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Humanoido

This is a very interesting thread with many thoughts that deserve
greater attention. I have an observation that someone may wish
to comment on. Given the unique opportunity to live in both the
USA and China, I've seen some very interesting things.

In the USA, I needed a hammer. I went to a hardware store.
They had 2 hammers on display. Both looked identical, weighed
the same, had the same guarantee, and the quality was very
similar. One said, "Proudly Made in America" and had the
American Flag painted on the side. The other hammer said,
"made in China." Which one to buy? The American hammer
was $39.95 and the China hammer was $1.00.

A few months later, I was living in China, and went to the
hardware store to buy a hammer. To my surprise, ALL the
hammers were "made in China." There was not one American
tool on any shelf. In days later, I visited appliance
stores, other hardware stores, parts stores, and sporting
goods stores, saw Japanese brands, and China brands, but
NEVER anything made in America.

In the USA, I visited appliance stores, hardware stores,
parts stores, and some sporting goods stores, and always
I could find the majority of products made in China.

humanoido