How many beginners would like to see a Beginners Sub Section?
TonyA
Posts: 226
Hi,
I know there are other·beginners interested in the Propeller. People who don't have a formal background in programming, maybe know a little programming from using the BS2, etc.·and have tons of "dumb" questions to ask about using Spin.·
It would be nice to have a sub section called "Beginners" where people like us would feel more at ease when asking·"dumb" questions.
Since there aren't a lot of books available yet for the Propeller or the Hydra, I thought this would be a great thing.
It might·encourage more beginners (or people just browsing the forum who have an initial interest in the Propeller)·to ask questions that they don't understand in the manual, or that isn't in the manual.
The Propeller is an awesome product, I think beginners need some "hand holding" in the early stages without feeling discouraged, at least untill more books come out.
Thanks for reading.
Tony A
Post Edited (TonyA) : 8/3/2007 12:51:46 PM GMT
I know there are other·beginners interested in the Propeller. People who don't have a formal background in programming, maybe know a little programming from using the BS2, etc.·and have tons of "dumb" questions to ask about using Spin.·
It would be nice to have a sub section called "Beginners" where people like us would feel more at ease when asking·"dumb" questions.
Since there aren't a lot of books available yet for the Propeller or the Hydra, I thought this would be a great thing.
It might·encourage more beginners (or people just browsing the forum who have an initial interest in the Propeller)·to ask questions that they don't understand in the manual, or that isn't in the manual.
The Propeller is an awesome product, I think beginners need some "hand holding" in the early stages without feeling discouraged, at least untill more books come out.
Thanks for reading.
Tony A
Post Edited (TonyA) : 8/3/2007 12:51:46 PM GMT
Comments
Can someone explain the basics of if statements?
How do I use arrays?
.....
I think this would be good for getting people started: http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?p=624354
Graham
There are cases when the question itself reveals some ignorance of basic principles, which are usually politely corrected, but that's about the extent of it.
No, no. I'm not saying there was ever any condescending attitudes. Just that it would be conducive to the beginner.
So what if your question reveals "ignorance" of basic principles?? That's what I'm talking about. You could have a section where all of your ignorance can be revealed. We act like a beginner with "ignorant" questions can't learn Spin, when it's just a matter of learning the right way. Don't all true beginners have "ignorant questions"?
Tony
The problem is that the Propeller has so much to offer that even after getting the basics ... you still won't feel like you know anything.
Then when you get some of the advanced concepts... you really start to feel stupid. At least that is how I felt... and still do.
Get over it. There is no such thing as a stupid question.
As long as you don't give up... you will get there, and that's all anyone here cares about.
AND... there are plenty of people who have the same question... no matter what it is.
The idea is to give back when you can. Lot's of guys are working on projects they can't talk about. If you get something working, share it.
That's the best way to say thank you.
Rich
one more ting.
I am in about a year long process of writing a book for absolute beginners... about Propeller Assembly. Your question actually helped me.
The first time I saw the concept of an array... my brain reacted exactly the same way yours just reacted... and I had forgotten all about it.
So... I need to add a little section about array basics... which didn't occur to me until I read your post.
Never Give Up
Rich
I understand what you're saying, good advice that I'll take.
But, the purpose of asking for a "beginners" section is so that all of the "dumb" questions can get asked, and encourage people to explore questions without annoying the advanced users or feeling embarrassed.
Ever notice, often you'll see a post with the title "Dumb Question", people entitle their posts like that to save themselves from feeling embarrassed, or from potential (real or imagined) ridicule. Even though their questions are completely valid.
All beginners have tons of "dumb" questions. I put "dumb" in quotes, I know they're not "dumb" just beginner questions.
Sometimes too, what happens is that a beginner with no formal engineering or programming education will ask what he thinks is a valid question, an advanced user will come in and thoroughly answer this question, however in a way that the beginner doesn't understand. Then what do you do?
I just thought this would be a good idea to help improve things.
Thanks.
Tony
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
I don't think we need a beginner's ghetto. We already have a very good staged learning set of threads based on the Propeller Education Kit chapters; they are too little used.
Learning curves are funny and often shorter than they feel.
I've not found too many issues with beginner questions, other than getting enough time with the Prop to actually learn things by doing, as opposed to reading about it on the forum. About the only thing that slows me down is translating lines like:
tx := (tx | $100) << 2
...into what's really going on, in what order it's doing it, how would I do this in three lines instead of just one, etc. This is a common learning cycle when you have people creating coding to get something done, and·clarity for a beginner·is not·a consideration.
Something that would be great for beginners is a Propeller version of the "What's a Microcontroller" course, which is where I think the EduKit may end up.
I should try to clarify some things. I am not complaining about anyone in the forum being rude, etc. Most people are extremely helpful and nice. (Actually I've never come across anyone in these forums who wasn't nice.)
Just that, I thought it might be more productive (for beginners and advanced users) to have a beginners section. What Kevin says is true, but I was thinking that when the advanced user goes into the beginner section he/she is going in there prepared for beginner questions, so the advanced user is going in there with the intent on being extremely helpful, and wanting to answer beginner questions.
Also, that it might promote more beginners to feel more free to ask all of the crazy questions we have in the beginning.
But, it's just an idea I had and wondered if there was anyone else who thought about the same thing. Maybe it's a bad idea, I don't know.
Thanks,
Tony
I use my sig to indicate my level of proficiency w/the propeller so I get the appropiate responses.
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I'm new to the propeller!
About a newbe forum, I don't think it is necessary because:
1. Even the experts (like Mike Green, for instance) are very helpful, and not condescending.
2. If there were a newbe forum, newbes would hang out there, learning from other newbes...maybe incorrectly
3. We don't want to make the well versed propeller heads have to go out of their way to go look for a newbe question.
Just my 10 bits worth.
Doug
a good compromise could be to add a short description about your knowledge-level after saying hello
something like
Hello,
i'm a REAL beginnner about the prop and programming at all
in the moment i'm at the level to try to understand what are "variables", "objects" and things like that
now my question is:......
or
Hello
i'm a beginner about the prop and almost a beginner about programming
i have made some small programs with delphi some years ago at school,
but don't remember too much
now my question is....
so this will indeed help the others to adjust the level of their explaining that beginners can understand it
in my opinion there is a second thing that is important about effective support
don't write only one simple question
make a 3-10 sentences description of what you want to do
my experience from tha past was very often
a thread starts with a short questions
first answer was a question back "what do want do do in the end ?"
and then the original question was obselete because there is a much better DIFFERENT solution about
what should be done in the end
No one was "condescending" in my experience. Basically I got frustrated because I couldn't find any info about using arrays the way I wanted to in the manual. (Storing values in arrays and then reading through them). I did do something like this with arrays with the BS2 back in 2005, but completely forgot.
The manual is well written, easy to follow and I understand they couldn't put everything in it. I'm starting to go through it a second time to see if I missed anything (which happens often).
Anyway the array stuff was explained to me thanks to Graham, Fred and Mike Green.
But after that, I thought it might be a good idea to have a beginners section, and see who else thought so. Seems not to be a good idea from the feedback. That's cool with me.
I did hear through the grapevine that they might come out with books similar the "What's A Microcontroller", etc. for the Prop. And some other "online help" stuff. This would be awesome.
Thanks again,
Tony
P.S.
Great·advice Stefan, I'll take it.
Thanks.
Post Edited (TonyA) : 8/3/2007 1:01:49 PM GMT
I don't consider myself a complete beginner, but I am definitely at an early stage. From my experience with other controllers (last years were mostly with Atmel's avr, some arms), what·takes the most time is to get the·little details (where the devil is).·And it's very seldom that you can get those details from the manual and such. Again, from my experience there are two ways - 1) years of work with trials, errors and digital nightmares, 2) learning/getting advice from people who went through 1).·Using both ways is the most beneficial. Only then you start to FEEL a controller.
Anyway, related to the prop. I did go through the manual, labs, stickies etc. Some of it was very useful, some·just generic staff. Forum is fantastic, probably the most active (and helpful) one I've seen in years. 'Propeller Tricks & Traps' (details not mentioned anywhere else) and some 'Step-by-steps' are great. But I still don't feel a prop like I feel, let's say, avr.
Now for a proposal (and I know·it's easy to propose if you don't have to do it). I think it would be greatly beneficial if one of the prop gurus - and fortunately we have quite a few on a forum and in Parallax - would take one (few)·of the most useful and confusing programs and completely dissect it. I mean DISSECT - not only comment what program purpose·every instruction serves, but what it does from the point of view of assembly or spin. And no 'it's obvious' assumptions.
I think that TV driver could be a possible candidate:
1) It's very easy to use on a high level, but very confusing when you start dissecting/modifying it.
2) It's probably one of the most used.
3)·Seems like it has most of the 'bells and whistles' making the prop so great.
I know that it would be quite a job, but benefit to the prop community seems immesureable (and very much appreciated).
Gennady
I've an idea for the newbies. I'm one! I suspect that's gonna be true for a LONG time, and that's a good thing as it shows just how brilliant this chip design really is. I also held off asking some things for some of the reasons posted here. When I bumbled, and realized it a coupla days later, I noted that nobody said a thing and treated me as if nothing had happened.
The reality is, nothing did happen! --and that's the difficult part for new people in any discipline. It's all self image issues.
When somebody registers for an account, why not just show them a quick screen that encourages them to ask stuff, give and take, etc..? Something like a culture primer. Maybe we can point to a thread or two where we post introductions, tell stories, etc... Kind of an ice breaker. Everybody here is totally cool. --if you read the right threads, or most of the threads over time, that comes out easily. Maybe an unlocked introduction sticky? (I know there are a lot of stickies, but this would be a new sticky, in that it's just not easily lumped in with the existing stickies.)
Where self confidence issues are concerned, I've learned smart people rub off! How much one knows really is kind of arbitrary, isn't it? Some of us know a ton about assembly, others video, others I/O, etc... We all got there by asking stuff, getting to know people, and learning to enjoy the rewards the learning process has for us. I suspect a fair number of us are here because we want to DO stuff too.
In the end, if one just lets all the self-image stuff fall away, what's left is just people having a good time learning and doing! It's as much fun to watch others grow as it is doing the growing. Maybe if people, who might not otherwise grok this, see it expressed somewhere, jumping in might be easier!
I don't like the idea that people won't ask and share because they are worried about these things. How else does one do this stuff?!? The more the merrier. We can only gain that way, and that's really what everybody wants, and it's what attracts people in the first place.
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Propeller Wiki: Share the coolness!
Post Edited (potatohead) : 8/3/2007 4:56:19 PM GMT
I find that lot of what has been said here in this post is why I have not gone
in real deep in to the Propeller
Tony A
I know there are other·beginners interested in the Propeller. People who don't have a formal background in programming, maybe know a little programming from using the BS2, etc.·and have tons of "dumb" questions to ask about using Spin.·
Stefanl38
A·good compromise could be to add a short description about your knowledge-level after saying hello
potatohead
I've an idea for the newbies. I'm one! I suspect that's gonna be true for a LONG time, and that's a good thing as it shows just how brilliant this chip design really is. I also held off asking some things for some of the reasons posted here. When I bumbled, and realized it a coupla days later, I noted that nobody said a thing and treated me as if nothing had happened.
The reality is, nothing did happen! --and that's the difficult part for new people in any discipline. It's all self image issues.
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··Thanks for any·
·
·
·
·
Sam
- Basic electronic questions ("How do I connect a 5 V device to the Propeller")
- Basic product questions ("Does anyone know how to acquire a cheap TFT display")
- Basic micro controller questions ("How do you debounce switches")
- Basic algorithmic questions ("How to quickly find the median of a row of numbers")
- Basic programming language questions ("When to use CASE and when to use IF")
- Basic SPIN questions ("How do I start a routine in a new COG?")
- Basic Propeller assembly questions ("How can I access the n-the element in a COG-based vector?")
Nearly all those above mentioned issues are either much better handled in some totally different forum, or are described - granted not always in a didactically perfect way - in some of the very comprehensiv Parallax documents.
I agree it would be nice to have some more books. Andr
1. I did my homework (at least most of it) - went trought tutorials and forum materials
2. Due to the very good spin tutorial in the Propeller manual (+ forum) I am quite comfortable with the SPIN.
3. Mostly I have little problems with·particular assembly instructions, but I do have problems with the way they come to work in a complex program.
Unfortunately, most of the assembly tutorials stop at basic staff: IOs, shifts, maybe spin-assembly data exchange. When staff gets more complicated, very little attention is paid to the assembly details. Example - very good (application-wise) SPI Engine in the 'Assembly code examples for the beginner' post - but almost nothing is explained assembly-wise.
On the contrary - there is a perfect example of what would really help - Mike Green's post on table usage in assembly in the same post -·EVERYTHING is explained from assembly point of view. I used to be a school teacher long time ago and I know when I see a great one. If Mike is not teaching, then some school definitely missed a lot.·As a great teacher he doesn't make assumptions that the student has the same knowledge he does.
Anyway,·since·I really like the Prop, I want to go into details as much as I can.·I don't think that I am the only one who needs this kind of materials. Parallax realized that writing SPIN programming tutorial in a manual. I hope it will be something like this for the assembler. Again, as I mentioned before, some dissected to details complex programs, like TV driver, would really help. I don't know about other interested people (though I suppose there are quite a few out there, probably even those who gave up), but I would gladly pay for the materials like that if insentive is required. It definitely will be payed off by the time I save and frustration I avoid. Paypal works perfectly.
Thanks to all:
- to those sharing my pain
- and to those who knows the staff and willing to help us·to be there too
Gennady
this is a most remarkable posting... I fully appreciate your point of view and (I think) I understand your needs.... They are not the common needs generally addressed in forums... People want SOLUTIONS here, rarely background knowledge.
There are books for background knowledge. And workshops, courses, seminars..
When the great Donald Knuth started his "Art of Computer Programming" with "machine language" programs, the uproar was immense! Nothing lower that "Pascal" would have done at the time - nothing but OOP will do today.
But he knew what he was doing and why. There is no understanding of Computer Science without understanding basic machine instructions: Why they have to be what they are!
You are right, there are very few books about this. Assembly books are either written as a kind of encyclopedic manual, as dark witch receipes, or as arcane entertainment for the initiated.
There indeed is little "Teach Yourself".
I think an important reason for this is, that you have to be "gifted" to work with assembly languages, a concept not very popular in recent times... A little bit like beeing "musical"... Difficult to play on the violin without it.. But who can teach you? Well, Mozart gave music lessons, but preferredly to beautiful young girls...
I started an Assembly Tutorial in our German forum, but it is far from beeing complete and I hazitate to translate it....
Post Edited (deSilva) : 8/8/2007 8:18:39 PM GMT
Thank you for your understanding / compassion.
I can't say that I am new to microcontroller programming. Before switching to C I had quite a few years of 8051, then avr·assembly programming.
I am not sure about the reason, but I have a lot less problems compreheding·ARM assembly than Prop (and I am not even talking about missing autoincrements and implied shifts).
May be it's just me
But·the only thing I know is that I can't really·feel the controller unless I completely understand it's doings and low level capabilities, provided by assembly.
Gennady
I agree, that the forums have grown such that oranization of nature of inquiries should be catagorized (especially with the prop, this forum alone has 34,000+ threads!) and the chip is only like a year old! Catagorization and maybe thread ratings with a better search engine (yes i already know about the google search for parallax). Perhaps if the 10,000+ registered members would donate 50 cents that would give parallax alot of money for better forums than dotnet-junk. If we all gave $1, that could pay someone part-time to maintain the forums deleeting useless posts and/or duplicate posts. Heck, if we all donated $2/yr for an "upgraded" forum with multi-level forums, rated & categorized posts, so when someone does a search on the subject matter they are loking for, the category and rating system would yield the most relavent threads. I'd pay $10/yr for information that i can use "on demand and right now". The new object exchange is a good example of what i'm referring to, it's categorized, while the forums could use a few more "dimentions" of categorization. What's your take on this? (to people @ parallax)
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E3 = Thought
http://folding.stanford.edu/·- Donating some CPU/GPU downtime just might lead to a cure for cancer! My team stats.
Post Edited (RinksCustoms) : 8/9/2007 12:52:28 AM GMT
I'd like to see a careful explanation of all of these concerns with the view to explaining propeller's design choices and its strengths. I·want discursive prose that takes its time, like Knuth does, to explain the implications and details.·Can it be done in twenty pages? Forty?
For instance, cog memory is all registers and can't be addressed as bytes or words. What does that mean to the assembly language programmer? How do propeller programs differ from other environments? Or what's a good use for a propeller and what's a bad use? And why?
It may be that getting good at Spin is the key. Then assembly is just a speeding up exercise.
I've been using micros for 30yrs and still do dumb things and expect I will for another 30yrs.
Newbies probably have a better chance of coming to grips with the prop, no preconceptions to hold you back..
It is a simple chip compared to some I have used, so simple I may never master it.
Ask lots of question, do lots of things, write lots of code, get lots of experience with the prop and in a few months you will be able to answer some other newbies "dumb" question.
With 10,000+ member, that's a lot of experience out there to be tapped.
Gavin
What I would love to see, and I've mentioned this in another post, is a HOWTO that explains how to interface with most of Parallax's own sensors and maybe a few other ones. The circuits don't have the perfect, they don't have be able to deal with EMPs and what have you, they just have to be good enough to do the trick and to allow people to get a basic grip on how it works. Once they get the basics down, the main 'howto interface 5v...' thread probably starts to become a lot more readable. I've seen some of the circuits needed to hook up sensors buried in the SPIN source code on the Exchange but that is usually the last place I would look when trying to figure out how to hardware mount a component.
Just my 2c
Mightor
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| What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left.
| "Wait...if that was a compliment, why is my fist of death tingling?"
| - Alice from Dilbert
Nice basic stuff and simple code samples[noparse]:)[/noparse]
(All are the Parallax sensors as sold on their website)
* Compass module
* Digital wheel encoders
* 2D Tilt meter
* PING))) and Servo
* QTI line sensors
Hopefully the recipes can be added to Oldbitcollector's Prop Cookbook. It may take some time to do all this as I am still learning SPIN atm.
Gr,
Mightor
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| What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left.
| "Wait...if that was a compliment, why is my fist of death tingling?"
| - Alice from Dilbert
Gr,
Mightor
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| What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left.
| "Wait...if that was a compliment, why is my fist of death tingling?"
| - Alice from Dilbert