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Propeller Temperature range — Parallax Forums

Propeller Temperature range

Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
edited 2007-08-03 20:16 in Propeller 1
I just chilled a Propeller demo board down to -73.0 C, powered down for 5 minutes, and it powered back up. Tomorrow comes high side temps.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 7/19/2007 12:01:21 AM GMT
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Comments

  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 916
    edited 2007-07-18 01:52
    wow ... Out of interest - was there any issue or quirk?

    Quattro

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  • mirrormirror Posts: 322
    edited 2007-07-18 02:03
    Cool.

    Very cool.

    Actually, downright cold if you ask me.

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  • Beanie2kBeanie2k Posts: 83
    edited 2007-07-18 05:02
    Amazing. cool.gif Especially considering most of the stuff we test at work has a hard time with -40°. I may have to take a close look at the Prop for some of our special purpose test equipment. smile.gif
  • MightorMightor Posts: 338
    edited 2007-07-18 05:14
    I suppose you could overclock the propeller that way [noparse]:)[/noparse] Perhaps that'd be worth testing. How fast will it go at -73C? [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Gr,
    Mightor

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  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2007-07-18 07:13
    Quattro, no quirks, it just ran. I didn't measure it but it appeared the output frequency I was using as an alive indicator changed slightly, likely due to variation of the crystal over temperature, or it could have been an illusion.

    Mightor, we would likely do such an experiment, mainly just for the fun of it, but after we do more serious measurements.

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    Paul Baker
    Propeller Applications Engineer

    Parallax, Inc.
  • SkogsgurraSkogsgurra Posts: 231
    edited 2007-07-18 07:21
    That would be true for the ProtoBoard as well? And the PropStick?

    Boy - this is turning some truths upside down...

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  • Tracy AllenTracy Allen Posts: 6,664
    edited 2007-07-18 07:43
    Paul, this news must mean that Parallax at last has a LCO2 environmental chamber in house?!

    [noparse]:toastin:[/noparse] [noparse]:freezin:[/noparse]

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    Tracy Allen
    www.emesystems.com
  • Graham StablerGraham Stabler Posts: 2,510
    edited 2007-07-18 08:10
    Tracy Allen said...
    Paul, this news must mean that Parallax at last has a LCO2 environmental chamber in house?!

    [noparse]:toastin:[/noparse] [noparse]:freezin:[/noparse]

    And you can bet they bought it for less than 1% of the retail value and are now controlling it with a propeller [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Graham
  • AleAle Posts: 2,363
    edited 2007-07-18 09:59
    -73 °C can be easily obtained (actually -78 °C) with a mixture of ethanol or acetone and dry ice (Solid CO2). Liquid CO2 does not form under normal Pressure, you need at least 500000 Pa (5 bar) of pressure. Handling such temperatures, is not that of a problem for most chemists smile.gif. Is it not very extreme, but condensation becomes a concern, like always under 0 °C. (btw, it is really fun)
  • Graham StablerGraham Stabler Posts: 2,510
    edited 2007-07-18 10:06
    Controlling it at a fixed level for long test periods might be more tricky.

    Graham
  • SkogsgurraSkogsgurra Posts: 231
    edited 2007-07-18 12:31
    Graham Stabler said...
    Tracy Allen said...
    Paul, this news must mean that Parallax at last has a LCO2 environmental chamber in house?!

    [noparse]:toastin:[/noparse] [noparse]:freezin:[/noparse]

    And you can bet they bought it for less than 1% of the retail value and are now controlling it with a propeller [noparse]:)[/noparse]

    Graham
    That's fine! It's called recycling and extensive engineering.

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  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2007-07-18 17:12
    We purchased a 2 stage (R-404A and R-508A) system from Cincinnati Sub-Zero, a little more expensive on the front end, but less costly to operate over time since there is no gas supply that needs refilling. We've had it for a month, was just waiting for an electrician to come out and install a 125V 20A circuit in the FIB room for it.



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    Paul Baker
    Propeller Applications Engineer

    Parallax, Inc.

    Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 7/20/2007 4:32:44 PM GMT
  • El PaisaEl Paisa Posts: 375
    edited 2007-07-18 17:51
    I wonder that the temperature test at -73 degC included the propeller and associated components such as the demo board and included the power brick.

    The reason is at -73 degC all capacitors· like electrolytics, ceramics (except those with dielectric materials such as NPO (COGS) and X7R cease to exist.
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2007-07-18 18:26
    All of the demo board, but not the power brick. The intent is not to be measuring the temperature capabilities of the Propeller products but the chip itself. This is a first round boundry test, if it works here then inherently the chip works as well. If we find a failure, then I will pair it down such that only the chip is being tested to determine if it is the failure point.

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    Paul Baker
    Propeller Applications Engineer

    Parallax, Inc.
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2007-07-19 00:04
    Those interested in high side temps, we took the Propeller up to 190 C (the limit of the chamber) and it didn't fail. We had to use a bench supply because the demo board regulators went into thermal protection mode and melted the wall wart when the temp got to 120 C (the board was fine after cool down,·except for the warped mess that used to be the breadboard). Tomorrow comes the test of tests, Chip's ESC demo program. If that runs at 190 C, the Propeller will officially be a monster.

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    Paul Baker
    Propeller Applications Engineer

    Parallax, Inc.

    Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 7/19/2007 12:09:52 AM GMT
  • CJCJ Posts: 470
    edited 2007-07-19 00:27
    is that the demo that drives the IO pins to the max?

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  • TomSTomS Posts: 128
    edited 2007-07-19 00:50
    I'm interested in how you kept the components from falling off the board. 60/40 solder melts at around 180 C or a little higher. I built a power supply that had to operate at 200 C and had to spot weld components to a high temperature laminate.

    Tom

    Post Edited (TomS) : 7/19/2007 1:09:26 AM GMT
  • TomSTomS Posts: 128
    edited 2007-07-19 02:32
    I think I've answered my own question. Do you use lead free solder on the demo board with its higher melting point?

    Tom
  • SkogsgurraSkogsgurra Posts: 231
    edited 2007-07-19 04:29
    As I said already on the cool side: "Boy - this is turning some truths upside down..."

    What are you using inside? SiC?

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  • CJCJ Posts: 470
    edited 2007-07-19 05:15
    What would happen if you ran the crank pll's code at that temp, do you think the prop would melt its pads and just keep going or would it finally let the magic smoke out?

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    Parallax Forums - If you're ready to learn, we're ready to help.
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2007-07-19 06:03
    Yes all our products are lead-free. The demo I am speaking of is the VGA demo Chip created for the Embedded Systems Conference, it uses all 8 cogs, PLLs, Video Generators and is a good example of the Propeller's capabilies. SiC?

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    Paul Baker
    Propeller Applications Engineer

    Parallax, Inc.
  • Tracy AllenTracy Allen Posts: 6,664
    edited 2007-07-19 06:33
    Hi Paul,

    It's good to know that the Prop will be qualified for a jaunt around the solar system! Well, almost, surface temperature on Venus is something like 480 degC, serious global warming.

    Military temperature range is "only" -55C to +125C. Rarely -65 to +150. Die temperature, or ambient? You can use a substrate diode to measure the die temperature. I presume you have serious plans to revise the data sheet, and (it is to be hoped) really claim the temperature qualification that is inherent in Chip's calculated design.

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    Tracy Allen
    www.emesystems.com
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2007-07-19 06:53
    Ambient, but we did a 5 minute soak at each temperature to make sure the die temp was near ambient. Yeah, I'll be using the ESD diode technique when I measure Theta-JA. The reason the existing datasheet is preliminary is because it lacks the temperature data (as we spoke about when you came out to visit about 6 months ago). Once I have tested all the temperature parameters and included them, we will release the full-blown datasheet v1.0. We will likely rate the chip for military temperature range, but may put a note stating that it exceeds even those specifications.

    We joked about getting it space rated, but theres alot more that goes with that beyond temperature, like radiation hardening and testing.

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    Paul Baker
    Propeller Applications Engineer

    Parallax, Inc.

    Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 7/19/2007 6:57:55 AM GMT
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2007-07-19 19:15
    If a picture is worth a thousand words, then a movie speaks volumes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjkXokgcBZw

    Videographic proof the Propeller operates way beyond military temperature range.

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    Paul Baker
    Propeller Applications Engineer

    Parallax, Inc.

    Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 7/19/2007 7:20:03 PM GMT
  • SSteveSSteve Posts: 808
    edited 2007-07-19 19:25
    That's all well and good, but the real question is: Will it Blend?

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  • Beanie2kBeanie2k Posts: 83
    edited 2007-07-19 20:20
    Just watched the video. Kind of funny how everything else is failing (crystal, regulator, connectors...) but the Prop just keeps chugging along. Looks like you guys have invented the Energizer Bunny of processors.
  • HarleyHarley Posts: 997
    edited 2007-07-19 22:04
    Hi Paul,

    Read all of this thread and viewed the video several times. Amazing. It's really a 'cool' chip, and a really 'hot' one too. (Enough of that.) yeah.gif

    Unless I missed it, how many Props need be tested to have confidence in the test for all Props in general? And will the three package types be tested?

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    Harley Shanko
    h.a.s. designn
  • Paul BakerPaul Baker Posts: 6,351
    edited 2007-07-19 22:34
    2 have been tested, since both survived -18 below and +65 above military (and these are not failure points but the limits of testing), using the statisics provided by the chip manufacturer on thier process variation, all Propeller chips can withstand military specification temperature range. IOW the variance is smaller than the difference in tempurature between the outer test point and the temperature range for military, but we will likely test a few more just to make sure the failure point isn't right at our testing range and we happened to pick a couple good chips.

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    Paul Baker
    Propeller Applications Engineer

    Parallax, Inc.

    Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 7/19/2007 10:42:44 PM GMT
  • QuattroRS4QuattroRS4 Posts: 916
    edited 2007-07-20 00:41
    This will have to be added to 'Why the propeller works'.....

    Strike that - already done..

    QuattroRs4

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    'Necessity is the mother of invention'

    Post Edited (QuattroRS4) : 7/20/2007 12:45:51 AM GMT
  • SkogsgurraSkogsgurra Posts: 231
    edited 2007-07-21 22:27
    Enjoyed that video. SiC = Silicon Carbide. Used in the latest power semiconductors running (almost) glow hot and at high switching frequencies.

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