I think you can find a lot of free compilers for the PIC and AVR (I've seen them) -- support and documentation (online or otherwise) is another question, however.
· I like the SX a lot and all I've ever done·with them has been in·SX/B (and with a SX-Blitz, no less.)
· My first experience with them was to crunch out my own 8-E-1 serial transmitter and I did it in a couple of days' trying.· I use the stuff to accomplish real tasks,·staving off·that project-killing tedium of wiring a lot of logic ICs.
·"Do Not Burn The Bridge That Has Brought You Forth You May·Need To Journey Back ! (Chinese)"· Words to live by?· Guess NOT.
Once again one thing you can't do in the USA which you should is voice your opinion without be crusified, damn no i know what jesus went through, why don't everybody just gang up on me.
KISS MY (expletive)!
Post Edited By Moderator (Jim Ewald (Parallax)) : 1/26/2007 1:52:01 AM GMT
You've said enough....if you're done..be done with it!
Stop dragging this through the dirt and let it be done!
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ ·
Steve "Inside each and every one of us is our one, true authentic swing. Something we was born with. Something that's ours and ours alone. Something that can't be learned... something that's got to be remembered."
Dan, the USB SX-Key is still in engineering and has not·been driven to·production due to adequate supply of the serial version. It's proceeding, though. The C compiler is in beta and will remain there for quite some time. There's a beta test forum to which you could belong should you desire.
Ken,
Here goes this stupid editor, making double spaced carrige returns again. I can't get it to do a single line carriage return. what's up with that? I like to add my cr's manually...
Anyway, I'm not complaining about what parallax has done. And, I do understand their target markets. I'm just calling it like I see it. As for the beta test forum, I'm far too busy·with my little one, and work and contracting to participate fully in·anything like that.·(Actually, I only spot check my·SX·forum emails for interesting content). ·Don't get me wrong, I'd love to help out,·but lack the time. My problems is that I really need·tools (hardware test, and software) to be stable and reliable and, I need them today.
Again, I·do like the SX becuse the platform is stable, and appears to·be backed (for now anyway)by a large need·in a product·(Stamps)·from the company·holds some rights to the thing (Parallax). Let's face·parallax is probably the only reason the SX is alive today.
As for some of my faster stuff I'm·going with·CPLD's/FPGA's now. The SX·just plain old ran out of horsepower for what I needed to do.
Ben,
I looked at all of the other C stuff out there for the SX.·The problem is that everything else had poor reviews. All sorts of bugs, and poor support.·If I was going to do C, it was going to be the parallax backed product, or no C at all...
-Dan
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
"A saint-like quantity of patience is a help, if this is unavailable, a salty vocabulary works nearly as well." - A. S. Weaver
Kaufman's SX version of WAM sounds great! We're planning a Spring 2008 "Embedded Programming" course and that would fit right in (I was planning on "adapting" the BS2 WAM but if its already done, why bother!).
Jon Williams comments on this forum have taught me many things about the SX so I'll be looking forward to his book also.
Anyway, thanks again.
P.S. Any words of wisdom from you all on trying to conduct an "Embedded Programming" course online?
Here goes this stupid editor, making double spaced carrige returns again. I can't get it to do a single line carriage return. what's up with that? I like to add my cr's manually...
The editor every now and then tries to force double spaces like this:
however if you type <Shift>-Enter you will force it back to single space like this:
Even this is sometimes a little goofy by only working properly at the beginning of a new line, but you can go back and erase the double space return afterwards.
Bet you guys want this thread to be gone, but it talked about several things and many of them I have wanted to talk about.
First I picked the SX as way to accomplish my goals that the BS2 & BS2SX couldn't. The support for the SX by parallax software is unmatched within the industry (in my opinion from all the research I did). I thought it was great that I could download a "Quick Basic" style language for free and use it as a bridge to learn assembly. I quickly downloaded·as much information as possible and soon found out, that there wasn't really good information on SX/B available. Most of the literature only supports Assm and most of the Ubicon·PDF's supporting those downloads, is on SX_List.com instead of matched with the code examples on the Parallax site. The More I "DIG" stuff up on SXList, the more you realize that SXList and parallax have more in common than just contributions to these forums.
On the other hand, Gunther's Book, WOW!!!!. I haven't read much of it yet, but what I have read has been of a style of writing that I haven't seen in the USA for more than 30 yr's. Almost every computer book (Mostly for Programming, web design, graphics, programming in Flash Action script, Photoshop etc.) have all been the type that give you a tutorial to accomplish, without explaining the basics of How & Why it works. As a Motorcycle and·mostly a·Watercraft mechanic, for myself, knowing the basics of each system, lead me·to advanced reasoning and diagnostic abilities. I truly appreciate a book is written from a similar point of view.
There is so little documentation on the SX/B Aliases and much of it and many of Bean's examples have there root in assembly and many of those aren't documented or you really need to dig to find them. Kind of like putting the "Cart before the horse" when your trying to learn a new upper level language, in order to learn the lower level language. The way it's currently set up, it seems easier for an assembly programmer to learn Basic. The Documentation on the examples portion of the help section is another example. I tried the LCD example, and ran the BS2 to the SX (I liked the idea of using one of my sx chips as "serial to parallel" interface for an LCD), But it didn't work. (I don't doubt that I may have screwed something up, but there's no documentation) I have a history of LCD questions here and I truly try to research any question before I post, but in the case of the SX, the BS2 is just way easier. I have made so many mistakes & tried so many things that someday I'll be an expert. LOL, and my computer is like a PDF & Code Encyclopedia.
At the time I choose the SX, the Propeller was just coming out. And the message from Parallax was that the Propeller wasn't for beginners. That being the case, the SX with SX/B and the capability to learn assembly, the free compilers and what seemed to be a wealth of information looked to be the logical next step over Basic Stamps. But now your advertising that the propeller will bring the "fun back into programming" and after going to the SX, I can·truely relate to that.
The Propeller using a kind of "C' based with·OOP language modules seem much easier than SX/B and the forums seem to be bustling with more activity than the SX too ?.
I originally bought the SX-Blitz expecting a similar debug interface to the BS2, I thought the SX-Key was more like the now discontinued "inline debugger" for the BS2 and so the SX-Key·wouldn't be necessary. I now know that it can be a much better tool than the BS2 Debug, But than sometimes it's not (for me anyway). The program and the peripherals (Servos) attached to it, will not run the same,·as real time measurements by the BS2 Debug system and seems to make an LCD or dumb terminal a necessity.
Bill Mazzacane
One other thing:·Will the release of the·SX/B book Jon's writing, going to coincide with the release of·newest version of SX/B that’s being tested and is there a eta?
·Thank You
Post Edited (Capt. Quirk) : 2/8/2007 10:30:59 PM GMT
And I can promise you that every one of the examples in the help file -- which I was responsible for -- work on my bench. I have made it my habit to take working code from my editor to past into written works. That said, formatting, etc. can sometimes screw things up.
That Parallax has hired me to write this book is a demonstration of their commitment to the chip. I like it and use it with my own clients. At EFX-TEK we created a controller called the Prop-SX that is generating a whole lot of interest with our advanced customers.
In the end, having my book (or the other John's book) will not magically make you a better SX/B programmer; SX/B is a layer over the SX architecture and that still needs to be understood to get the most out of the SX. I hope, though, that my book helps make the transition from PBASIC to SX/B a quicker process for you and for others.
Bill Mazzacane,
I wouldn't say that I wish this thread would go away. I will say that I wish it hadn't taken the detours that is has...
You make some valid points. All the info is in the help file, but it is what it is....A help file. It doesn't really lead the newbie by the hand. You kinda have to browse around in it and "absorb" the information. Or take the example programs and modify them. Then it's the old "keep trying things until the @#@% compiler likes it" method.
I've only seen a little of Jon's book but I think it will be pretty much what you are looking for.
The beta version of SX/B has some different things, but they still need alot of testing. And I wouldn't look for it to be released anytime soon. Version 1.51.03 is working very well, and that is what the two books will be based on.
I'm sorry you had a rough start, I hope the forums have helped somewhat...
Bean.
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Cheap used 4-digit LED display with driver IC·www.hc4led.com
"You kinda have to browse around in it and "absorb" the information. Or take the example programs and modify them. Then it's the old "keep trying things until the @#@% compiler likes it" method" ·
Bean, that describes me quite well and fortunately I have the time to do it. Before last summer's project that involved a BS2SX, I have been wanting to work with Basic Stamps for at least 8 yrs. before that. After that BS2SX project, I looked at Pics & AVR's, but after researching it, I believed the SX was the best bet (But I was·scared away from the Propeller). I had friends that told me Pics were the way to go, but since the last several articles in Nut & Volts, they've changed their minds and now·think the SX has real potential. ·
I want to stick with one system and learn it as completely as possible for me, and not need to change to the next latest greatest widget that comes out. I am also looking forward to learning assembly with·Gunther's book and beyond. ·
In the mean time, maybe someone can do an article for the forums or as a download (or just point me in the right direction) On using your "Virtual Peripheral"·assembly code and other online examples into our/my own SX/B code?. ·
2nd, what about how the programs initialize?, will there be complications because you want to use the VP code examples and the SX/B code needs to do something else that’s related to a VP or not related?·· ·
I know some on this, but I find it hard to believe it's as simple as just adding the file name before compiling?. For example, I would like to use the 4-bit LCD·assembly code example, but how do I format the lcd and pass variables to that separate code? ·
I have other questions and I will post them in their appropriate place ·
Thanks
I've written about SX/B in Nuts & Volts since it was released. Here's a couple references to articles (some using VP-type code) that you might find useful. Just keep in mind that as SX/B has matured, the older article code may need updating to get the best from it.
The January, March, and May issues of N&V 2007 have SX/B projects. January is a pinewood derby race timer that does seven-segment multiplexing (ISR), March is an 8x8 LED multiplex/mini game board, and May (in progress now) is a PC-controlled animation controller that does RX/TX of serial as well as servo control in the ISR.
Since my company, EFX-TEK, likes the SX so much -- and uses SX/B in our commercial products -- we're releasing a new controller this year called the Prop-SX, and all of our examples will be in SX/B, using assembly only where it really makes a difference (rare, because SX/B works so well). As servo control is important to prop builders I created a simple control framework that our customers can use that allows set-and-forget servo control. I posted that, as well as a version with the SX/B ISR code ported to assembly (i.e., I took the assembly output from the compiler and did some minor fine tuning), in this thread:
I actually updated the SX/B version of that program today to give the servo rate control as with the Parallax PSC. I'll post that once I'm happy with the performance (it works, but the simple algorithm causes the movement to be too slow).
So... there's stuff out there, and with Parallax's commitment more will be coming. I'm not defending anything (or perceived lack of anything), but honestly, I'll be you've seen less support from other companies for products they charge top dollar for. SX/B is still free.
Finally, I've attached an SX/B framework that has RX/TX UART code; if you look carefully you'll see the code is lifted right out of Al Williams's book. Perhaps this example will help you integrate other VP code into your projects.
Comments
· My first experience with them was to crunch out my own 8-E-1 serial transmitter and I did it in a couple of days' trying.· I use the stuff to accomplish real tasks,·staving off·that project-killing tedium of wiring a lot of logic ICs.
· "Do Not Burn The Bridge That Has Brought You Forth You May·Need To Journey Back ! (Chinese)"· Words to live by?· Guess NOT.
KISS MY (expletive)!
Post Edited By Moderator (Jim Ewald (Parallax)) : 1/26/2007 1:52:01 AM GMT
Nobody's ganged up on you.· You say what you want, "we" say what we want.· You're totally over-wrought, mate; emotionally over-invested.
Stop dragging this through the dirt and let it be done!
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·
Steve
"Inside each and every one of us is our one, true authentic swing. Something we was born with. Something that's ours and ours alone. Something that can't be learned... something that's got to be remembered."
Here goes this stupid editor, making double spaced carrige returns again. I can't get it to do a single line carriage return. what's up with that? I like to add my cr's manually...
Anyway, I'm not complaining about what parallax has done. And, I do understand their target markets. I'm just calling it like I see it. As for the beta test forum, I'm far too busy·with my little one, and work and contracting to participate fully in·anything like that.·(Actually, I only spot check my·SX·forum emails for interesting content). ·Don't get me wrong, I'd love to help out,·but lack the time. My problems is that I really need·tools (hardware test, and software) to be stable and reliable and, I need them today.
Again, I·do like the SX becuse the platform is stable, and appears to·be backed (for now anyway)by a large need·in a product·(Stamps)·from the company·holds some rights to the thing (Parallax). Let's face·parallax is probably the only reason the SX is alive today.
As for some of my faster stuff I'm·going with·CPLD's/FPGA's now. The SX·just plain old ran out of horsepower for what I needed to do.
Ben,
I looked at all of the other C stuff out there for the SX.·The problem is that everything else had poor reviews. All sorts of bugs, and poor support.·If I was going to do C, it was going to be the parallax backed product, or no C at all...
-Dan
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
"A saint-like quantity of patience is a help, if this is unavailable, a salty vocabulary works nearly as well." - A. S. Weaver
Kaufman's SX version of WAM sounds great! We're planning a Spring 2008 "Embedded Programming" course and that would fit right in (I was planning on "adapting" the BS2 WAM but if its already done, why bother!).
Jon Williams comments on this forum have taught me many things about the SX so I'll be looking forward to his book also.
Anyway, thanks again.
P.S. Any words of wisdom from you all on trying to conduct an "Embedded Programming" course online?
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John J. Couture
San Diego Miramar College
however if you type <Shift>-Enter you will force it back to single space like this:
Even this is sometimes a little goofy by only working properly at the beginning of a new line, but you can go back and erase the double space return afterwards.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Paul Baker (Parallax)) : 2/2/2007 8:17:53 AM GMT
First I picked the SX as way to accomplish my goals that the BS2 & BS2SX couldn't. The support for the SX by parallax software is unmatched within the industry (in my opinion from all the research I did). I thought it was great that I could download a "Quick Basic" style language for free and use it as a bridge to learn assembly. I quickly downloaded·as much information as possible and soon found out, that there wasn't really good information on SX/B available. Most of the literature only supports Assm and most of the Ubicon·PDF's supporting those downloads, is on SX_List.com instead of matched with the code examples on the Parallax site. The More I "DIG" stuff up on SXList, the more you realize that SXList and parallax have more in common than just contributions to these forums.
On the other hand, Gunther's Book, WOW!!!!. I haven't read much of it yet, but what I have read has been of a style of writing that I haven't seen in the USA for more than 30 yr's. Almost every computer book (Mostly for Programming, web design, graphics, programming in Flash Action script, Photoshop etc.) have all been the type that give you a tutorial to accomplish, without explaining the basics of How & Why it works. As a Motorcycle and·mostly a·Watercraft mechanic, for myself, knowing the basics of each system, lead me·to advanced reasoning and diagnostic abilities. I truly appreciate a book is written from a similar point of view.
There is so little documentation on the SX/B Aliases and much of it and many of Bean's examples have there root in assembly and many of those aren't documented or you really need to dig to find them. Kind of like putting the "Cart before the horse" when your trying to learn a new upper level language, in order to learn the lower level language. The way it's currently set up, it seems easier for an assembly programmer to learn Basic. The Documentation on the examples portion of the help section is another example. I tried the LCD example, and ran the BS2 to the SX (I liked the idea of using one of my sx chips as "serial to parallel" interface for an LCD), But it didn't work. (I don't doubt that I may have screwed something up, but there's no documentation) I have a history of LCD questions here and I truly try to research any question before I post, but in the case of the SX, the BS2 is just way easier. I have made so many mistakes & tried so many things that someday I'll be an expert. LOL, and my computer is like a PDF & Code Encyclopedia.
At the time I choose the SX, the Propeller was just coming out. And the message from Parallax was that the Propeller wasn't for beginners. That being the case, the SX with SX/B and the capability to learn assembly, the free compilers and what seemed to be a wealth of information looked to be the logical next step over Basic Stamps. But now your advertising that the propeller will bring the "fun back into programming" and after going to the SX, I can·truely relate to that.
The Propeller using a kind of "C' based with·OOP language modules seem much easier than SX/B and the forums seem to be bustling with more activity than the SX too ?.
I originally bought the SX-Blitz expecting a similar debug interface to the BS2, I thought the SX-Key was more like the now discontinued "inline debugger" for the BS2 and so the SX-Key·wouldn't be necessary. I now know that it can be a much better tool than the BS2 Debug, But than sometimes it's not (for me anyway). The program and the peripherals (Servos) attached to it, will not run the same,·as real time measurements by the BS2 Debug system and seems to make an LCD or dumb terminal a necessity.
Bill Mazzacane
One other thing:·Will the release of the·SX/B book Jon's writing, going to coincide with the release of·newest version of SX/B that’s being tested and is there a eta?
·Thank You
Post Edited (Capt. Quirk) : 2/8/2007 10:30:59 PM GMT
And I can promise you that every one of the examples in the help file -- which I was responsible for -- work on my bench. I have made it my habit to take working code from my editor to past into written works. That said, formatting, etc. can sometimes screw things up.
That Parallax has hired me to write this book is a demonstration of their commitment to the chip. I like it and use it with my own clients. At EFX-TEK we created a controller called the Prop-SX that is generating a whole lot of interest with our advanced customers.
In the end, having my book (or the other John's book) will not magically make you a better SX/B programmer; SX/B is a layer over the SX architecture and that still needs to be understood to get the most out of the SX. I hope, though, that my book helps make the transition from PBASIC to SX/B a quicker process for you and for others.
I wouldn't say that I wish this thread would go away. I will say that I wish it hadn't taken the detours that is has...
You make some valid points. All the info is in the help file, but it is what it is....A help file. It doesn't really lead the newbie by the hand. You kinda have to browse around in it and "absorb" the information. Or take the example programs and modify them. Then it's the old "keep trying things until the @#@% compiler likes it" method.
I've only seen a little of Jon's book but I think it will be pretty much what you are looking for.
The beta version of SX/B has some different things, but they still need alot of testing. And I wouldn't look for it to be released anytime soon. Version 1.51.03 is working very well, and that is what the two books will be based on.
I'm sorry you had a rough start, I hope the forums have helped somewhat...
Bean.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
Cheap used 4-digit LED display with driver IC·www.hc4led.com
Low power SD Data Logger www.sddatalogger.com
SX-Video Display Modules www.sxvm.com
Stuff I'm selling on ebay http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZhittconsultingQQhtZ-1
"USA Today has come out with a new survey - apparently, three out of every four people make up 75% of the population." - David Letterman
·
Bean, that describes me quite well and fortunately I have the time to do it. Before last summer's project that involved a BS2SX, I have been wanting to work with Basic Stamps for at least 8 yrs. before that. After that BS2SX project, I looked at Pics & AVR's, but after researching it, I believed the SX was the best bet (But I was·scared away from the Propeller). I had friends that told me Pics were the way to go, but since the last several articles in Nut & Volts, they've changed their minds and now·think the SX has real potential.
·
I want to stick with one system and learn it as completely as possible for me, and not need to change to the next latest greatest widget that comes out. I am also looking forward to learning assembly with·Gunther's book and beyond.
·
In the mean time, maybe someone can do an article for the forums or as a download (or just point me in the right direction) On using your "Virtual Peripheral"·assembly code and other online examples into our/my own SX/B code?.
·
2nd, what about how the programs initialize?, will there be complications because you want to use the VP code examples and the SX/B code needs to do something else that’s related to a VP or not related?··
·
I know some on this, but I find it hard to believe it's as simple as just adding the file name before compiling?. For example, I would like to use the 4-bit LCD·assembly code example, but how do I format the lcd and pass variables to that separate code?
·
I have other questions and I will post them in their appropriate place
·
Thanks
I've written about SX/B in Nuts & Volts since it was released. Here's a couple references to articles (some using VP-type code) that you might find useful. Just keep in mind that as SX/B has matured, the older article code may need updating to get the best from it.
* http://www.parallax.com/dl/docs/cols/nv/vol5/col/nv116.pdf
* http://www.parallax.com/dl/docs/cols/nv/vol6/col/nv117.pdf (buffered serial RX VP)
* http://www.parallax.com/dl/docs/cols/nv/vol6/col/nv122.pdf (uses serial RX VP from above)
* http://www.parallax.com/dl/docs/cols/nv/vol6/col/nv125.pdf
* http://www.parallax.com/dl/docs/cols/nv/vol7/col/NV137.pdf
* http://www.parallax.com/dl/docs/cols/nv/vol7/col/NV139.pdf
The January, March, and May issues of N&V 2007 have SX/B projects. January is a pinewood derby race timer that does seven-segment multiplexing (ISR), March is an 8x8 LED multiplex/mini game board, and May (in progress now) is a PC-controlled animation controller that does RX/TX of serial as well as servo control in the ISR.
Since my company, EFX-TEK, likes the SX so much -- and uses SX/B in our commercial products -- we're releasing a new controller this year called the Prop-SX, and all of our examples will be in SX/B, using assembly only where it really makes a difference (rare, because SX/B works so well). As servo control is important to prop builders I created a simple control framework that our customers can use that allows set-and-forget servo control. I posted that, as well as a version with the SX/B ISR code ported to assembly (i.e., I took the assembly output from the compiler and did some minor fine tuning), in this thread:
http://forums.parallax.com/forums/default.aspx?f=7&m=170452
I actually updated the SX/B version of that program today to give the servo rate control as with the Parallax PSC. I'll post that once I'm happy with the performance (it works, but the simple algorithm causes the movement to be too slow).
So... there's stuff out there, and with Parallax's commitment more will be coming. I'm not defending anything (or perceived lack of anything), but honestly, I'll be you've seen less support from other companies for products they charge top dollar for. SX/B is still free.
Finally, I've attached an SX/B framework that has RX/TX UART code; if you look carefully you'll see the code is lifted right out of Al Williams's book. Perhaps this example will help you integrate other VP code into your projects.