SMD microcontrollers are not bad if proto boards are available at a decent price. The $20/ea for a 5-pack is not bad (current special on the web page). It appears the P2 will need to be on a proto board if hobbyists are going to use them. Hopefully we will not pay a huge premium over the cost of the chip for the board to make it usable. One negative of 'manufactured' proto boards with SMD devices is if you zap the CPU. You would have to start over with a new board and not simply swap out the chip. If you have built an entire robot-thing on the board, this could be a disaster.
I recently picked up a pair of PropRPM boards. Why? Because they had RS-232 instead of USB. I use my boards to interface with serially controlled devices. USB-client boards are useless in those scenarios. Once I program the board, the RS232 is an asset. Although USB is convenient during the programming phase, it is dead hardware once you unplug. I must admit I like the idea of being able to swap the DIP-40 if needed.
@Mark: The protoboards don't have USB - or RS232 for that matter.· They just have LVTTL UART.· You have to add circuitry for either (i.e., Prop Plug).· Makes sense to me.
I do share Bergamot's concerns about the carrier board costing 5X as much as the chip.· If Parallax can offer a carrier board as reasonable as the Prop Protoboard, then we get the best of both worlds.· Just leave a double row of holes and let the end user solder in pins if they need to use a breadboard.
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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?
I guess I would be happy with something like the protoboard if it was more compact and was in that price range.
How about a board that's about 2 x 2 inches and has 20 pins on each·side. Just put a crystal on the board with the processor·and nothing else (maybe a memory chip if there's room).·Just bring all the other pins out to the 80 headers. ·It would be small enough to build into other projects, be pluggable/removable, and inexpensive.
Surely this could be built for·under $20 like the protoboard.
We made a few of the below attached picture·on our PCB miller
Single sided ..with just the crystal no eeprom.
Laying out one with an eeprom underneath and maybe
some other stuff on it..
Yes we can do curved traces.. we use easypc from www.numberone.com good package..V11 latest
This was a quick knock up ....
Yep I agree a 27 degree rotate woud give it the Prop feel/look.
Paul Baker (Parallax) said...
it would be P16X32, 32 is the architecture width, not the size of memory.
strange·name selections are going on.
Everybody knows that a 6502, Z80, 8048, 80C537, 89C2051, ATMEGA8, ATMEGA16, ATMEGA32, ATMEGA64, ATMEGA128, ATMEGA256 is a 8-Bitter. Everybody should know that the Propeller is a 32 Bitter.
Therefore i was just guessing about the Prop2-naming :-) sorry about that.
br
Franz
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Please visit my online Propeller at:
It would be easy to get confused on what the 32 means, it could be the RAM size, it could be the number of IO pins or it could be the architecture width.
i was thinking:
you have one CON and two VAR's.
CON = the 32 Bit architecture.
The VAR's are the COG's and the RAM.
Therefore i was composing it together to P8X256 or to P16X128
P= Propeller
8 = COG`s
X = i dont`t know yet, wat is X ???????
256 = the RAM in KB
have fun
Franz
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Please visit my online Propeller at:
It was my fault. I was saving the board as a PDF file and it was chopping off part of the board outline, so I gave the board a double outline to compensate. This caused the ULP to hang. Once I removed the extra outline, it worked. Thanks for informing me/us about this program!
This is a little off topic, but maybe someone could explain...
Why isn't there a microcontroller with address and data pins? I understand the function of a microcontroller, but there are times when you need to bypass the internal ROM/RAM. Having, say, 16 address pins and 8 data pins along with a few bus control and chip select pins would allow for this. Of course, it would make for a larger chip, but is that so bad? I would really love to see any manufacturer come out with a hybrid microprocessor/microcontroller. I could build my own microcontroller (NOT as a single chip), an am in fact doing so, but bi-directional I/O pins are exceedingly difficult to do if you need a low chip count. I also understand that I could use a microcontroller's I/O pins as address/data pins, but that would take up most of them for memory access.
Excuse my rambling. This is something that has been bugging me for quite some time. Had to get it off my chest...
I mentioned this a couple of pages ago on this thread.· It would be nice to be able to re-configure a bank of I/O pins into an address bus.· You can do it with software, but memory access would be S....L.....O.....W.
With the new propeller, I understand there are 64 I/O pins planned.· That would allow, say, 28 general I/O with the rest being able to directly access 64K 16-bit words with handshaking.
The big question is whether that added complexity on-chip would be worth it.· You can only do so much before you have to freeze the design and start making it or it will be forever vaporware!
Ken
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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?
20 pins address + 8 pins data + 4 pins handshake.· That allows addressing a megabyte of RAM.· Imagine being able to use RDBYTE and WRBYTE instructions to access a MB of RAM!· I'd trade 32 out of 64 I/O pins for that!··
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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?
@Mark: There are MANY microcontrollers with extrnal bus systems. Granted more in the high end area (>10$) sporting 80+ pins. But there are examples in the low cost market as well ATMEL's 8515 (or is it 8535?) is an example, the Intel 8085 protocol had been quite popular for a while... That was before the world went serial...
Such stuff however requires two things:
- an extended processor logic fetching data (and instructions?) from that external memory system
- another special logic for the bus timing
I should say both concepts do not lay directly on the "Propellor Way"
deSilva said...
@Mark: There are MANY microcontrollers with extrnal bus systems. Granted more in the high end area (>10$) sporting 80+ pins. But there are examples in the low cost market as well ATMEL's 8515 (or is it 8535?) is an example, the Intel 8085 protocol had been quite popular for a while... That was before the world went serial...
Such stuff however requires two things:
- an extended processor logic fetching data (and instructions?) from that external memory system
- another special logic for the bus timing
Thanks for the info. I figured that they existed, but could not find them.
deSilva said...
I should say both concepts do not lay directly on the "Propellor Way"
Like I said, it was off topic. I like the Propeller way! Its just there are times when you need more.
Comments
I recently picked up a pair of PropRPM boards. Why? Because they had RS-232 instead of USB. I use my boards to interface with serially controlled devices. USB-client boards are useless in those scenarios. Once I program the board, the RS232 is an asset. Although USB is convenient during the programming phase, it is dead hardware once you unplug. I must admit I like the idea of being able to swap the DIP-40 if needed.
I do share Bergamot's concerns about the carrier board costing 5X as much as the chip.· If Parallax can offer a carrier board as reasonable as the Prop Protoboard, then we get the best of both worlds.· Just leave a double row of holes and let the end user solder in pins if they need to use a breadboard.
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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?
How about a board that's about 2 x 2 inches and has 20 pins on each·side. Just put a crystal on the board with the processor·and nothing else (maybe a memory chip if there's room).·Just bring all the other pins out to the 80 headers. ·It would be small enough to build into other projects, be pluggable/removable, and inexpensive.
Surely this could be built for·under $20 like the protoboard.
olimex.com/dev/avr-h128.html
olimex.com/dev/msp-h449.html
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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?
We made a few of the below attached picture·on our PCB miller
Single sided ..with just the crystal no eeprom.
Laying out one with an eeprom underneath and maybe
some other stuff on it..
Cheers
Ronald Nollet·· Australia
Pretty. Though I would like to see the board with the chip rotated 27 degrees or so to give it a proper prop look.
Can the layout program can handle curved traces?
Fred
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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?
Yes we can do curved traces.. we use easypc from www.numberone.com good package..V11 latest
This was a quick knock up ....
Yep I agree a 27 degree rotate woud give it the Prop feel/look.
cheers
Ronald Nollet Australia
What· machine did you use for milling the pcb's?
Gavin
How are you going the up north in sunny QLD.
We have a Quickcircuit pcb miller
http://www.t-tech.com/products/default.asp
cheers
Ronald Australia.
Franz
Post Edited (Franz Achatz) : 8/30/2007 1:48:01 PM GMT
How did you draw this ..
Groetjes uit Australia
Ronald Nollet
with Eagle and Eagle3D
br
Franz
you meen:
(8 COG Version) >>> P8X256
(16 COG Version) >>> P16X128
or will it be a P16X256? WHOW !!!!
is this correct ????
br
Franz
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Everybody knows that a 6502, Z80, 8048, 80C537, 89C2051, ATMEGA8, ATMEGA16, ATMEGA32, ATMEGA64, ATMEGA128, ATMEGA256 is a 8-Bitter. Everybody should know that the Propeller is a 32 Bitter.
Therefore i was just guessing about the Prop2-naming :-) sorry about that.
br
Franz
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Please visit my online Propeller at:
http://achatz.xs4all.nl
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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
i was thinking:
you have one CON and two VAR's.
CON = the 32 Bit architecture.
The VAR's are the COG's and the RAM.
Therefore i was composing it together to P8X256 or to P16X128
P= Propeller
8 = COG`s
X = i dont`t know yet, wat is X ???????
256 = the RAM in KB
have fun
Franz
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Please visit my online Propeller at:
http://achatz.xs4all.nl
Just tried Eagle3D. It gave me the Blue Screen Of Death!
I'm trying to imagine a 64bit Propeller·
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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?
besides Eagle3D, you need to install Pov-Ray.
After that please consult the Eagle3D manual !!!!
br
Franz
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Please visit my online Propeller at:
http://achatz.xs4all.nl
Why isn't there a microcontroller with address and data pins? I understand the function of a microcontroller, but there are times when you need to bypass the internal ROM/RAM. Having, say, 16 address pins and 8 data pins along with a few bus control and chip select pins would allow for this. Of course, it would make for a larger chip, but is that so bad? I would really love to see any manufacturer come out with a hybrid microprocessor/microcontroller. I could build my own microcontroller (NOT as a single chip), an am in fact doing so, but bi-directional I/O pins are exceedingly difficult to do if you need a low chip count. I also understand that I could use a microcontroller's I/O pins as address/data pins, but that would take up most of them for memory access.
Excuse my rambling. This is something that has been bugging me for quite some time. Had to get it off my chest...
Back to your regularly scheduled programming...
I mentioned this a couple of pages ago on this thread.· It would be nice to be able to re-configure a bank of I/O pins into an address bus.· You can do it with software, but memory access would be S....L.....O.....W.
With the new propeller, I understand there are 64 I/O pins planned.· That would allow, say, 28 general I/O with the rest being able to directly access 64K 16-bit words with handshaking.
The big question is whether that added complexity on-chip would be worth it.· You can only do so much before you have to freeze the design and start making it or it will be forever vaporware!
Ken
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The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?
20 pins address + 8 pins data + 4 pins handshake.· That allows addressing a megabyte of RAM.· Imagine being able to use RDBYTE and WRBYTE instructions to access a MB of RAM!· I'd trade 32 out of 64 I/O pins for that!··
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
The more I know, the more I know I don't know.· Is this what they call Wisdom?
Such stuff however requires two things:
- an extended processor logic fetching data (and instructions?) from that external memory system
- another special logic for the bus timing
I should say both concepts do not lay directly on the "Propellor Way"
Thanks for the info. I figured that they existed, but could not find them.
Like I said, it was off topic. I like the Propeller way! Its just there are times when you need more.