HYDRA Game Console Kit, Game Programming for the Propeller Powered HYDRA on Sal

AndreL

A little over a year and everything is done and available for sale!!! Start here:

http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=32360

and the book...

http://www.parallax.com/detail.asp?product_id=70360

Also, maybe next week I will put up a post about a contest of sorts with the HYDRA, but for now·enjoy. I am going to get some sleep finally....

Andre'

Graham Stabler

Ordered! I'm getting it delivered to my Mum's so I will have to wait until Christmas, I feel like a child again.

Graham

p.s. I asked for USPS airmail as I did with my demo board, I'm hoping that's OK Parallax [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Harley

Thanks Andr

Retrobits

Hey there Andr

Gadgetman

Ordered the book.

You may want to update the list of computer games, though...

While NUSSE didn't have a big, shiny screen, it did play NIM back in 1954.
http://www.abo.fi/~atorn/History/Page14.html

Here's a picture:
http://www.norwayonline.no/images/div/nit_red/nit2-s13.jpg

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Don't visit my new website...

Bean

Looks like christmas is going to be coming a little early at my house this year [noparse];)[/noparse]
I can't wait to get it, but I don't know when I'll get to play with it.

It looks like alot of people are just getting the book, Parallax should make the kit available without the book too.

Bean.

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Cheap used 4-digit LED display with driver IC·www.hc4led.com

Low power SD Data Logger www.sddatalogger.com
SX-Video Display Modules www.sxvm.com

"People who are willing to trade their freedom for·security deserve neither and will lose both." Benjamin Franklin


Post Edited (Bean (Hitt Consulting)) : 11/18/2006 12:42:50 AM GMT

rokicki

The book looks good; I want to get the Hydra itself, but I've already got so much
invested in prop stuff . Maybe after saving my pennies for a bit.

I'm curious how much of the Hydra software will run on a plain old demo board.
Clearly you lose the expansion slot, the game slots, and the networking. But
are the other slots wired the same way as on the demo board? Maybe I can
hack up a connector for a joystick and run the Hydra games on my demo board?

The expansion connector looks pretty cool. If I do get a Hydra I'm sure the
first thing I'll solder to it will be an SD card connector so I can put all 32,000
games available on the same memory card!

AndreL

The system needs the book to be useful, its a "package" marketed and conceived to be sold as a complete edutainment offering, if you start breaking it up then people would get it and not get what they thought they would etc. So the kit will stay the same, but the book is of course available seperately. The idea of the hydra kit is you do not need to know anything about game programming etc. you get the kit, read the book, do the work, and you are making games, etc. with it. Its a synergy all together as one thing.

As far as an SD card reader, yup that's a must. If anyone does create any expansion cards, don't hesitate to contact me or parallax we might want to sell them on our sites as well.

Also, one thing to mention, anyone that does get the kit or the book, make sure to look on the CD, there are lots of things there like a complete copy of the "Black Art of 3D Game Programming", DOS based book which matches nicely to the propeller programming since obviously the prop has no windows, directx or gigs of memory like a DirectX/Windows game uses now. And of course math is math and 3D algorithms are still all the same and applicable from the book.

Andre'

Post Edited (AndreL) : 11/18/2006 2:26:05 AM GMT

sharpie

Andre, to that effect.. Can you, or have you already posted/provided anything of a footprint, etc. for the expansion cards so we might design something?

AndreL

I did in another post put the interface spec up with the pins and signals, basically its a standard 20-pin edge connector, 10 fingers on each side, 0.1" apart, super common. The card with is about 1" and some hairs, height can be anything of course.

Andre'

Gadgetman

Bean (Hitt Consulting) said...
It looks like alot of people are just getting the book, Parallax should make the kit available without the book too.

I can't speak for anyone else, but my reason for not ordering the Hydra itself is the accessories.
The wall-wart is useless here in Norway, and keyboard and mice I can get cheaply anywhere(or nick from the 'returned and too dirty to give to users' bin at the office).
All in all, they're just dead weight that I don't want to pay shipping for.
(Or even the cost of the items themselves)

As for the controller...
I have the NES, SNES, Sega Master(I & II), MegaDrive(I & II + 32x + MegaCD) and a whole lot of other consoles. (I think I should have a few controllers that works with the Hydra)

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Don't visit my new website...

Graham Stabler

Andre, if someone buys the book then later decides to go for the hydra they have to buy the book again. I'm already buying yet another parallax keyboard I dont need.

Graham

AndreL

Like I said, the hydra is a system, a kit, it simply comes that way. And hopefully we will get distribution in europe, so that anyone that want's it there can save shipping costs. But, the hydra will always come with the book, its basically free with the hydra. Think of it like that. However, I suppose that its possible that it could be sold as an option without, but that would mean a lot of things would have to happen, new packaging, more cost, etc. For now the hydra is a kit. If you buy the book and decide to buy the hydra kit then you have two books (one was free almost) and you can just eBay the other and make a profit [noparse]:)[/noparse] And the accessories are so it can be used out of the box as a complete system without any incompatibilities. For every person that HAS a nes controller 100 dont, etc. and like I mentioned this system is just like any one console, its in a box as a unit, it comes with the accessories as part of the package, so users need nothing more than a TV and a PC, they don't have to steal things from other systems, rummage, or plug a 18V power supply in accidentally and blow it up.

Andre'

T&E Engineer

What I am unclear about is if you buy the book (no kit - at least not yet), can one still use the programs on the CD with only having a Propstick or standard Propeller board? Obviously you would need to add some circuitry like video, etc (for the propstick - like I have) but I'm concerned about needing to have the 128K cartridge or any expansion capabilty. It sounds to me that buying the kit is really the best way to go because it has everything all in one place.

When I bought the Propstick I had to add additional circuitry for video / VGA, etc but the solderless breadboard looks a bit ugly as there is not much room on a single breadboard for everything. I should have spent the extra and gotten the "complete" solution by buying the Propellor standard board. It is the same when I started with a BOE-BOT for the BOE for BS2 projects. I rarely ever use it since I moved up to the "complete" solution of when I later bought a Professional Development Board. There is less headache and more capability.

I will most likely buy a HYDRA kit but haven't gotten past learning SPIN and certainly not assembly language. I read about a Tiny BASIC that comes with the Hydra too. This may make it a little more bearable to use for a newbie with only BASIC programing skills.

(BTW: When I hear the word Hydra "kit" it makes me think I need to solder it like I did on my Propstick. Perhaps a solderable Kit version would reduce the cost a little and draw more people in.)



Thanks...just my 2 cents worth.


Post Edited (T&E Engineer) : 11/18/2006 11:56:08 AM GMT

Paul Baker

The way the supply chain is set up, there would be little savings in production by providing it in an unassembled form. Every new item stocked incurs a substantial cost: warehouse space, entering it into the inventory system, kitting it (assembling all the pieces), and several other associated costs. A decision must be made of start-up and maintenance cost vs. expected sales. By offering N different iterations of the same product, the overall overhead for the product family greatly increases and typically all that occurs is you split your sales market into many different branches while only modestly increasing the overall sales. In the end it frequently isn't cost effective.

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Paul Baker
Propeller Applications Engineer

Parallax, Inc.

[Deleted User]

Andre,
My wife ordered me the hydra for x-mas , so needless to say I have a month to wait . I have the heathkit/pittman tiny basic on a trainer ,is this going to be the same as the tiny basic on hydra ?

Thanks Brian

AndreL

When I wrote the HYDRA book one of my main goals was to have it not only talk about the HYDRA, but talk about the propeller in general. So yes, the entire book is absolutely applicable to the any propeller chip (the non hydra hardware parts ). Of course, you will have to change the port on the mouse and the keyboard and the pingroup for video, and there is no gamepad, but that's it. In fact, all the demos we made (90%) always use a second input device (except maybe the 3D racer) since I assumed that people would buy the book and NOT have a hydra as well, thus with that foresight I knew that they would at least have a trainer kit or a demo board or just a prop on a stick and as long as they have a ps/2 interface they can use a keyboard/mouse driver and get the input going.

Additionally, the game cards is very slick in its design in as much as from the prop's point of view when you drop it in, the prop thinks its just talking to the same eeprom; one is enabled the other disabled, so there is no special programming to use the gamecard, thus games don't need to know about.

Last, but not least, we made sure that ALL demos work in the 32K which is the typical propeller setup. We have 128K to support multiple images, etc. So all and all, I did all I could to kill two birds with one stone and not only make the HYDRA book the definitive resource for the HYDRA, but to make it the definitive resource for general propeller graphics programming and media. HOWEVER, the HYDRA book is NOT a teach you programming book, it doens't not teach programming from the ground up, that would add another 500-1000 pages and I would get complaints up the ying yang about how people don't want to pay more to learn how to program, when they just want to know how to do graphics. Then people would ask "can you make another version of the book without the tutorial programming, since I am already a C programmer" etc. Point is, you can never make everyone happy [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Nonetheless, I still even tried to start off slow with the HYDRA book for those that want to learn programmnig for the first time with the book, it will be a cold shower and harsh, but I suppose someone really smart could pick up general programming as well. However, I doubt anyone on this board falls into the category of NOT knowing how to program, so its a moot point.

Finally, on the subject of just selling the HYDRA alone. Who knows, maybe in the future for the customer that wants the ultimate in spartan design and wants to do it all himself we will sell JUST the HYDRA PCB and customers can but the parts and make one themselves, then they can use old keyboards, mice, etc. with it and shipping cost would be nothing, since its like mailing a letter [noparse]:)[/noparse] But, of course the hydra has surface mount parts and many would end up destroying them during the soldering process, thus this option would be advanced hobbyists and for people to try at their own risk.

So give us some time on that and we might be able to make it happen in the near future. Also, it might be cool for customers tha buy a hydra, but want two for networking, they can build one themselves potentially. We will see.

For now, "kit" means you get everything you need to have fun. Just like my other products, the "game programming starter kit" series, kit means you just get all the things you need to make games on a PC, what you "assemble" are games. Same thing here, "kit" means tools to make games and media applications for the hydra.

But, you can still switch out the prop chip and xtal, and it uses a big fat 40-pin dip which has a lot of heatsinking so you can over clock it really well and cool it really well, plus the eeprom is socketed as well, so you can upgrade, switch that as well.

Andre'

AndreL

Sorry, didn't see that BASIC question. The basic we made is an entirely different basic that the little spin based trs-80 tiny basic someone made on here. Ours is also based on Tiny BASIC, but our "HYDRA BASIC" is in assembly language and LIGHTENING fast, but its just TINY BASIC, so you aren't going to be making DOOM with it, but its cool to do immediate mode programming and of course you can mod it and upgrade it since source is given for it.

We are working on a new basic, more commercial right now, no real time on it, but it will have built in graphics, sound, and gaming support, so you can get real work done with it to make games etc. but, that's not going to be out for a while. Thus, primarily for real coding you will use spin and asm as usual.

Andre'

Rich M

Count me in as well as someone who would be more than happy to purchase the book, but would never consider turning around and then buying the complete Hydra system.

Lord knows I've spent enough already on various Parallax products. But If I'm going to lay out $70 for a book, there's no way in the world I would turn around later and buy the "complete" system - I already have the keyboard, mouse, display, etc. from the Propeller accessories kit, I have game controllers, power supples, cabling, and so on. $250 would be a ridiculous price to pay when, in essence, all I need is the Hydra board itself.

If the board itself ( assembled or unassembled ) was made available as a separate SKU, I'd snap it up. Otherwise, well, it makes no economic sense whatsoever to duplicate all of the accessories I already have.

- Rich

AndreL

The kit cost is for the HYDRA, 128K, Blank card and BOOK which are absolutely integral to the system. The accesorries you get nearly for free, so if we removed them from the kit hypothetically then the kit might go down only a few bucks, so 95% of the cost is the HYDRA, 128K expansion, Blank card and BOOK and the accessories are free basically. So that's why its such a good deal. But, for those that just want to build one, like I said we will see if we can make that happen in the future. But, there is a big diff in solderless breadboard kits that parallax sells and a bare PCB that customers have to solder onto SMT parts [noparse]:)[/noparse]

For example, if we just sold the hydra board by itself pre-assembled, it would probably be $199, thus they hydra and the book would be $269 bought seperately! So you get the hydra, the 128K, the blank card, the book, and ALL the accesorries for $250, less than the cost we would sell JUST the hydra and just the book, so its a good deal no matter what.

Andre'

potatohead

IMHO, I'm gonna pick up a book as well.

As far as the other elements go, the machine is plenty open. Gives people plenty of options. Personally, I'm into the prop for both software and hardware type stuff. Been a while since I tinkered with electronics. This is a good fit overall.

Those programs that do not depend on the larger eeprom memory, should run just fine on the demo board, sans the game controllers. No biggie. Can always add that circut, or just edit the code to take other input. Gonna have to tweak to change pin assignments anyway.

I'm assuming the CD is the same for both the book purchase and the complete system purchase.

BTW: Thanks Andre for releasing the sample chapter covering the Parallax reference drivers. I had gotten about half way through that process. That chapter ties things together nicely. Appreciated!

JT Cook

Also for the 3D racer game, it only uses the NES controller as input and there are·zero free COGs, and close to zero free memory so adding keyboard support might be tricky. Also because of how the NES controller is used in the program when you boot up the game without a controller it will appear to be frozen.
Just an FYI.

AndreL

Yes, the CD is the same, its really just the book's CD. And you're welcome on the free reference graphics driver chapter material, chip wrote the driver, but didn't have time to document it in a tutorial fashion, so after I figured it all out there isn't really anything secret about it, but it can help others get up to speed with the Prop in general. And its a good marketing tool to show just the kind of cool tidbits in the book that are not given away for free in the samples [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Andre'

potatohead

Makes perfect sense to not double up efforts like that. Good call.

Re 3D Racer: Yes, but the code is there correct? If so, no biggie. Either keyboard will fit or it won't.

Personally, I prefer the old Atari style controllers. Kind of pin hungry, but more enjoyable. Maybe modify the game for use with those.

AndreL

ALL THE CODE, ALL THE SOURCE, EVERY SINGLE THING WE DID FOR THE HYDRA COMES ON THE CD -- SOURCE, EXE, C/C+, PERL, etc. anything we made, all of it was included. We even made a little disassembler for the ASM code, which is a good start for people that want to make other tools hosted on the PC.

Also, in a week or two, we will release the "HYDRA Asset Mananger" 0.1 version for free, its not part of the copyrighted book/CD materials. The HYDRA Asset manager is a tool used to create "images" on the eeprom, but using a graphical interface on the PC written in C# .net. Pretty sweet little toy, will work on any propeller chip connected to the eeprom in the standard way. When its done, we will put it up for free download on the HYDRA page. This way if you have a game or app that you write and you want to drag some .BMP or .TXT or whatever for storage on the eeprom, but with your app on the lower 32K, and then read the assets during run-time, you can use this little tool. First you have to flash the hydra/prop with the host comm program, then run our PC tool then do what you want. More or less, its just an eeprom programmer with a graphical interface, but uses the prop as the host to do the programming [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Ref Atari controllers; as you know I used atari controllers on the XGS system, but they are hard to find and need pins. But, at first the HYDRA was going to use them, did a round about deal with atari to get them, then you know atari, no JOYSTICKS!!! So, I decided to use NES controllers, found a SWEET source of SEXY black controllers which I will go to my grave before I give up [noparse]:)[/noparse], and decided to use them. They are so much better since they have the dpad, more buttons and of course a blinking GREEN LED, that was the clincher, so the HYDRA is better for using the NES controllers, PLUS its compatible with any NES controller or pad, so I would love to see someone make a DANCE DANCE FEVER game on the HYDRA [noparse]:)[/noparse]

Andre'

Gadgetman

My guess is that one of the Chinese companies Parallax has been dealing with is also into the production of 'Famicom' consoles...
(That is, NES-compatible consoles, usually without Nintendo's blessings. for some strange reason, many of them looks like the PS or PSOne... Though some, like the GameAxe, takes it out of the ballpark entirely.)

Not that any of the Famicoms I own has so nice controllers...

Anyway, with the Nintendo Revolution(I refuse to use that... joke of a new name) starting to sell on Dec. 8 here in Norway, and expected to sell out fast, I was worried that I wouldn't have anything fun to do while being offline at my parents during xmas...
(I preordered the Revolution two months ago, but the company I ordered with now tells me that no one who ordered after 07.07.2006 will get one from the first shipment, and they haven't gotten any dates for the second or third shipment, yet)

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Don't visit my new website...

AndreL

Nope [noparse]:)[/noparse] I wish parallax could have found sourcing them, would have saved me a lot of leg work [noparse]:)[/noparse] And its not just the controller, but the connectors, they are worth their weight in gold! Took me 2 years to get the source for connectors, if you can believe that.

Andre'

Dave Lowry

I'm still not clear on this: will the programs in the book work, at least to some extent, on the demo board, assuming pin remapping, etc? I think the Hydra is a wonderful product, but $250 is a little steep after aleady purchasing the demo board.

Thanks.

-Dave

potatohead

IMHO, the answer is yes. Looking at the detailed picture in Chapter 1, one sees the usual array of chips. A demo board should run quite a bit of the code included with the book, that does not depend on the networking, nintendo controller interface, or 128Kb EEprom.

Should be plenty to run, after a tweak or two, on the demo board.

AndreL

The demo board will run all of the HYDRA code more or less unless you use a peripheral it doesn't have. Also, the audio output on the demo board is slightly different, so the filtering might not act the same, other than that the system is more or less a propeller chip in both cases.

Andre'

ESP

As soon as it's available here in the UK (with our power supply [noparse]:)[/noparse] ) it's mine.. I've been waiting for a long time for this.

Robin