Whoa! That is one big momma with cubs, not a good situation to be around. Apparently shock fences are very effective with bears, they don't like them and will avoid them after getting hit once. I remember seeing bear handlers use these to contain a bear in a area during a live performance. I realize that it would be tough to implement in your home situation, but it might *spark* a few ideas on how to possibly automate such a device, as to safety and appearance ( the wire has to be visable to the bear ). There is quite a bit of info about it on the web, might be worth a look.
·· Kind of a old thread, figured I'd post anyways..
·Awesome setup.. I built one similar about 3 yrs ago, but for right now it's just a DC generator.. Has throttle control, but thats about it..
· I used a Ryobi 4 stroke weedeatter engine, and a 65 amp alt.. I did some engine mods, slightly ported the head, lapped the valves to get a nice tight seal, and advanced the cam timing 1 tooth to add some lowend power. Also modified the clutch so it will engage sooner, instead of running 5K RPM before it fully engages, having it engage sooner also stops slipage under high loads. The alt, I have the current limited down to the brushes/slip rings·so the max output of the alt is 35 amps.. I've ran the unit in altitudes around 9500ft in Colorado for hrs at a time.. Ran perfectly. I bet I've put 200 hrs on this thing without any problems at all..·· For those of you who'd like to do the same thing, but have trouble with engine power, limit the power the voltage regulator sends to the brushes until the engine will happily pull the load with power to spare..· Mine at a 15 amp load will consume .4 gallons an hr at 1/4 throttle just hummin along. I've used it as a batt charger, but it's never ran at full load long enough to determine fuel consumption.
· I had thought about turning it into a hybrid robot for many yrs, but I wanted a start/stop system. This way the engine only runs when needed to charge the batt(s) back up.. That would require a engine with a starter, which I havnt found one for a price I can justify yet.. Although I have a old riding lawn mower with a fresh engine, I use it to put my welding/torch trailer around the ranch.. It might just become a robot someday.
instead of using a clutch and a direct drive has anyone tried a belt drive system? Using a high torque server you can engage and disengage the a wheel to tighten the belt. I would think that the alignment wouldnt matter as much since it would have a little more give.
This is still my favorite larger size robot. Anything that can be an autonomous robots and afford spare electricty for headlights is a move in the right direction. Just having a mobile vehicle carry tools, provide power and provide lighting is ample design. An electric winch would be handy if you could tie it off to a boulder or a tree.
I suppose I am going to have to accumulate all the parts and convince a local welding shop to fabricate the frame. We have a lot of little shops with welding gear and milling machines in the neighborhood. The only problem is that I haven't seen anyone working in aluminum welding. I guess I'd just have to ask a gas supplier who buys gases for aluminum welding. 4 wheel drive would be another plus.
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PLEASE CONSIDER the following:
Do you want a quickly operational black box solution or the knowledge included therein?······
···················· Tropically,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
Kramer, where you live they'll know exactly what to do. Heck, Taiwan is now the leader of saxaphone manufacturing too! Not even the worse hacker in the middle of nowhere would probably use a stick welder to assemble aluminum, so you'll get the right process simply by making aluminum the media which you want welded. Let me know how this goes if you proceed.
Probably not what you are after, but for small runs you can solder Aluminum with Silver Solder, if you Braze the Aluminum pieces first until they are glowing hot.
A Benzene torch is usually enough to sufficiently heat the Aluminum to an adequate temperature.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔ Beau Schwabe
IC Layout Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
theloneduck said...
instead of using a clutch and a direct drive has anyone tried a belt drive system? Using a high torque server you can engage and disengage the a wheel to tighten the belt. I would think that the alignment wouldnt matter as much since it would have a little more give.
·· You can find lots of belt drive DC generators using push lawn mowers.. They just keep the engine on the base, cut a hole in the base for the alt and run it like that... The problem I saw with a belt setup on a small engine such as a weedeatter engine is that the bearings are not designed for a side load. The bearings are on one side of the crank shaft, both sides arnt supported. Under light loads it would be fine, but as tight as a belt needs to be·to drive·15-20 amps without·slipping I feel is to much...·It would last for a while, but·it's just a matter of time before you trash a engine..·A larger engine such as a common lawn mower engine can take a side load easily..··
·· I never had any luck with direct drive.. Using a 2 stroke engine as a prototype, worked great for a while, but then I started having problems with it spinning the flywheel off the engine when slowing down, or stopping the engine.. Thats when I decided a clutch setup would be best..· Getting it lined up is a pain, but depending on the drive you use, you can be off a little without any problems..····· Which makes using a electric motor for starting and generating impossible unless you used a electric clutch.. Another reason I didnt like the idea of using a setup like that is I like having the regulator do the work for me in a small package. So a alternator works perfect..
· Ebay has some small electric start engines for reasonable prices, I've thought about picking one of those up but my budget doesnt allow for it right now..·· The more I think about it, the more it seems like using a riding lawn mower would be a much easier platform to work with if making a robot used for working, like what I want.. But building one from scratch you could build a killer toy..
I attached a few pics of my generator, those pics are without electronics, gauges, spotlight·or anything like that.. It was right after I got done building the frame, it doesnt look much different than that now, all the electronics are hidden. You can almost see how it's setup. Has a outside frame with rubber feet, then a frame that sits inside the outside frame mounted sideways with rubber mounts.. Neat to watch the engine torque over within the frame, and the unit itself never moves from where you placed it. The cover over the drive is not only for safety, but the airflow from the alternator cooling fan actually helps increase airflow over the cyl head by a significant amount. I've used it in 100 degree temps for hrs at a time without overheating. I use it so much·it stays in the tool box of my truck, charges batts while camping, lights when fixing fence at night. Use it at work when on service calls ( refrigerated railcars ), I consider it a important tool. I actually use it more than I thought I would, I own other generators as well, but the DC output·on those ranges between·8-10 amps.·I use DC more than I use AC...·Only cost I have it in is the engine ( 100 dollars ), I had everything else.·· If I had one with a larger electric start engine, I doubt I'd use it as much because of weight and size, but the idea of a start/stop generator is to cool to pass up, I'll do it someday though..·· If it involves electronics and engine's, I'm all for it, my 2 favorite things rolled into one..·················· A bit off topic, but when I get around to the start/stop generator, I'll also fuel inject it, with ignition control.. Using the same ECM I use in my race car.. It would be expensive, but it sure would be cool..
Well, the really issues seem to be getting the drive coupling right. I'd prefer an in-line set up for compactness. Belt drives do indeed side load a bearing more than many little engines are designed for. [noparse][[/noparse]A weed eater is just intended to spin without any side load].
So... it all comes down to a straight coupling or an appropriate clutch.· Due to safety considerations, the frame would have to be welded, not silver solder or bolted.·· And alignment would most likely mean using brass·shim stock under all the motor and alternator mounts to get a near perfect X-Y-Z alignment of the drive shaft.· If one can spin test the whole set up with the spark plug removed from the motor until vibration is eliminated, the alignment might be truer to begin with.
The trick is how to drive that 'spin test'.
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PLEASE CONSIDER the following:
Do you want a quickly operational black box solution or the knowledge included therein?······
···················· Tropically,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
Well, after being distracted by the above discussions about side thrusts, weed eater engines, clutches, and belt linkages - it looks like Ken got it right, though not·the first time.
It is quite mechanically sturdy. The Honda motor seems to handle the side thrust if there is much, whereas a weed eater isn't really meant for such use. Both of Ken's design pretty much rely on CAD design and fabrication to keep the centers of the two shafts dead on. And the coupling is very sturdy, well contained, and well supported. I guess the machining the front of the alternator·as a·special mount is the only way to go and doesn't rely on a swinging relationship to tighten a V-belt.
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PLEASE CONSIDER the following:
Do you want a quickly operational black box solution or the knowledge included therein?······
···················· Tropically,····· G. Herzog [noparse][[/noparse]·黃鶴 ]·in Taiwan
Man I used to have (2) 49cc scooters with engines with starter, clutch, transmition, everything for a power plant. Here is one that I modified for an R/C Airboat that I never finished.
The scooter cost about $125 locally and the starter was sweet. I sold them both long time ago, but I might buy 1 for a 12v powerplant for sure.
Hi Ken, hi all,
from many years i'm thinking to make a hybrid robot lawnmower, seeing your project made me take back all the stuff i collected about this project in the years.
I'm from Italy, and it is very hard to find parts here, i recently found transmotec.com which is european and provides online shop with a good documentation; USA Ebay has a very large choice of electric wheelchair gearmotors that would be perfect for this application but shipping costs times more than motor price
Defined parts which i'm going to buy:
2x Worm gear 12v motors with optical encoder: http://www.transmotec.com/shop/WormGear25W500W_WD65.aspx
The exact model is WRD65111 which is rated for 80rpm and 29.6 kg/cm out of the gearbox
I'm in doubt about their power, i used this tool http://www.societyofrobots.com/RMF_calculator.shtml to calculate the needed motors, considering a max speed of 5km/h and a weight of 15kg, with an incline angle of 10°. But i suspect this is too optimistic, the robot will weight more and i want to make it able to run on planes with > 10° inclination.
Since there are no power problems i can plan to use higher power motors, the counterpart is their cost
Another doubt regards the worm gear, as you know it is not "reversible", in the sense that trying to rotate the wheel will not cause the motor to turn, and this has advantages and disadvantages:
Advantages:
in a hill you dont need power to stay stopped
high reduction ratio in a compact and lightweight design
Disadvantages:
in a hill you dont have current feedback of the energy needed to rest, you only notice it when you start to move.
operation is not so smooth
For the engine i have found that subaru robin is selling eh35 here too; i have to call to ask them the price; it should be under 250 euros because the complete lawnmower costs 280 euros.
It looks like a good engine, it is lightweight and four strokes; the only thing it is missing is the electric start; i heard about reversible alternators; which work as starters motors when powered and as alternators when moved; it would be nice; still collecting infos.
I have to study well the mechanics to double the engine shaft to move the alternator plus the blade; and i have to manage the height of the cut too.
I'm thinking to the 2 powered wheels design; maybe its not the best for a rude lawnmower, probably 4x4 is better; i have to consider it; the problem is the cost of the motors...
Now lets go with the suggestions [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Cheers!
P.S Ken, you already heard it many times, but let me say it a time more, compliments [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I have been thinking of building a robot similar to your gas powered model except I plan to use the Parallax motor mount and wheel kit, which I just purchased, and a large capacity SLA battery which will be recharged as necessary at a docking station.
Since I am a systems engineer by trade, I hate to reinvent the wheel, so I tried to make use of your wealth of knowledge that was originally available at www.parallax.com/hybrid.
Unfortunately the link has been discontinued! Any chance of getting reinstated?
Also, where did you get the wheels/tires used on the caster assembly?
I have also read your article on this project in Robot mag and found it to be very informative.
Regards,
TCIII
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If you are going to send·a Robot·to save the world, you·better make sure it likes it the way it is!
Tom, I've had the same thoughts exactly. I think the motor mounts open the door to a hybrid robot as well.
I made the caster wheel on a CNC mill. The tires are from summer skate roller skiis - these are 3.5" pneumatic tires but they don't need a tube because they're plenty rigid without one. . . basically cross-country skiis for summer.
I've informed our WebDev group about the link being broken. I'll get that fixed right away. I need my old information too so I can continue with another project!
I've thought about using a DC motor instead of an alternator next time.
"I've thought about using a DC motor instead of an alternator next time." - You can pick up some nice, several hundred Watt,·Scooter motors on EBay for not too much·$$$·that would work as a·nice·DC generator.
Back mid-last-year, you posted this... did anyone take you up on it?
I've been formulating my plans... oddly enough I've attempted this very thing, even before finding this forum. I've got a lightweight Mazda alternator, and a couple different 'weedeater' engines that I've tried to connect... and now I see my errors and can proceed!
Your message quoted:
"I could always be talked out of a few HB-25s for free if somebody wanted to make a similar robot."
Those motor controllers look incredibly straightforward to integrate... can I "talk you out of" a couple?
GM Delco 10SI and 12SI alternators have internal regulators and are fairly cheap if found in a salvage yard and easy to rebuild.
10SI up to 55amp.
12SI 70-90amp but takes about 5hp to run at full load.
Comments
Whoa! That is one big momma with cubs, not a good situation to be around. Apparently shock fences are very effective with bears, they don't like them and will avoid them after getting hit once. I remember seeing bear handlers use these to contain a bear in a area during a live performance. I realize that it would be tough to implement in your home situation, but it might *spark* a few ideas on how to possibly automate such a device, as to safety and appearance ( the wire has to be visable to the bear ). There is quite a bit of info about it on the web, might be worth a look.
·Awesome setup.. I built one similar about 3 yrs ago, but for right now it's just a DC generator.. Has throttle control, but thats about it..
· I used a Ryobi 4 stroke weedeatter engine, and a 65 amp alt.. I did some engine mods, slightly ported the head, lapped the valves to get a nice tight seal, and advanced the cam timing 1 tooth to add some lowend power. Also modified the clutch so it will engage sooner, instead of running 5K RPM before it fully engages, having it engage sooner also stops slipage under high loads. The alt, I have the current limited down to the brushes/slip rings·so the max output of the alt is 35 amps.. I've ran the unit in altitudes around 9500ft in Colorado for hrs at a time.. Ran perfectly. I bet I've put 200 hrs on this thing without any problems at all..·· For those of you who'd like to do the same thing, but have trouble with engine power, limit the power the voltage regulator sends to the brushes until the engine will happily pull the load with power to spare..· Mine at a 15 amp load will consume .4 gallons an hr at 1/4 throttle just hummin along. I've used it as a batt charger, but it's never ran at full load long enough to determine fuel consumption.
· I had thought about turning it into a hybrid robot for many yrs, but I wanted a start/stop system. This way the engine only runs when needed to charge the batt(s) back up.. That would require a engine with a starter, which I havnt found one for a price I can justify yet.. Although I have a old riding lawn mower with a fresh engine, I use it to put my welding/torch trailer around the ranch.. It might just become a robot someday.
I suppose I am going to have to accumulate all the parts and convince a local welding shop to fabricate the frame. We have a lot of little shops with welding gear and milling machines in the neighborhood. The only problem is that I haven't seen anyone working in aluminum welding. I guess I'd just have to ask a gas supplier who buys gases for aluminum welding. 4 wheel drive would be another plus.
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PLEASE CONSIDER the following:
Do you want a quickly operational black box solution or the knowledge included therein?······
What you really want is a shop that has MIG or TIG welders.
Regards,
Bruce Bates
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"Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration."
Thomas Alva Edison
Any idea how to say TIG or MIG in Chinese? That is why everything seems to get located at a snail's pace and I'd try the gas supplier first.
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PLEASE CONSIDER the following:
Do you want a quickly operational black box solution or the knowledge included therein?······
Post Edited (Kramer) : 2/26/2008 2:25:29 PM GMT
Ken
Probably not what you are after, but for small runs you can solder Aluminum with Silver Solder, if you Braze the Aluminum pieces first until they are glowing hot.
A Benzene torch is usually enough to sufficiently heat the Aluminum to an adequate temperature.
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Beau Schwabe
IC Layout Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
·· I never had any luck with direct drive.. Using a 2 stroke engine as a prototype, worked great for a while, but then I started having problems with it spinning the flywheel off the engine when slowing down, or stopping the engine.. Thats when I decided a clutch setup would be best..· Getting it lined up is a pain, but depending on the drive you use, you can be off a little without any problems..····· Which makes using a electric motor for starting and generating impossible unless you used a electric clutch.. Another reason I didnt like the idea of using a setup like that is I like having the regulator do the work for me in a small package. So a alternator works perfect..
· Ebay has some small electric start engines for reasonable prices, I've thought about picking one of those up but my budget doesnt allow for it right now..·· The more I think about it, the more it seems like using a riding lawn mower would be a much easier platform to work with if making a robot used for working, like what I want.. But building one from scratch you could build a killer toy..
I attached a few pics of my generator, those pics are without electronics, gauges, spotlight·or anything like that.. It was right after I got done building the frame, it doesnt look much different than that now, all the electronics are hidden. You can almost see how it's setup. Has a outside frame with rubber feet, then a frame that sits inside the outside frame mounted sideways with rubber mounts.. Neat to watch the engine torque over within the frame, and the unit itself never moves from where you placed it. The cover over the drive is not only for safety, but the airflow from the alternator cooling fan actually helps increase airflow over the cyl head by a significant amount. I've used it in 100 degree temps for hrs at a time without overheating. I use it so much·it stays in the tool box of my truck, charges batts while camping, lights when fixing fence at night. Use it at work when on service calls ( refrigerated railcars ), I consider it a important tool. I actually use it more than I thought I would, I own other generators as well, but the DC output·on those ranges between·8-10 amps.·I use DC more than I use AC...·Only cost I have it in is the engine ( 100 dollars ), I had everything else.·· If I had one with a larger electric start engine, I doubt I'd use it as much because of weight and size, but the idea of a start/stop generator is to cool to pass up, I'll do it someday though..·· If it involves electronics and engine's, I'm all for it, my 2 favorite things rolled into one..·················· A bit off topic, but when I get around to the start/stop generator, I'll also fuel inject it, with ignition control.. Using the same ECM I use in my race car.. It would be expensive, but it sure would be cool..
So... it all comes down to a straight coupling or an appropriate clutch.· Due to safety considerations, the frame would have to be welded, not silver solder or bolted.·· And alignment would most likely mean using brass·shim stock under all the motor and alternator mounts to get a near perfect X-Y-Z alignment of the drive shaft.· If one can spin test the whole set up with the spark plug removed from the motor until vibration is eliminated, the alignment might be truer to begin with.
The trick is how to drive that 'spin test'.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
PLEASE CONSIDER the following:
Do you want a quickly operational black box solution or the knowledge included therein?······
Post Edited (Kramer) : 2/27/2008 7:20:21 AM GMT
It is quite mechanically sturdy. The Honda motor seems to handle the side thrust if there is much, whereas a weed eater isn't really meant for such use. Both of Ken's design pretty much rely on CAD design and fabrication to keep the centers of the two shafts dead on. And the coupling is very sturdy, well contained, and well supported. I guess the machining the front of the alternator·as a·special mount is the only way to go and doesn't rely on a swinging relationship to tighten a V-belt.
▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔▔
PLEASE CONSIDER the following:
Do you want a quickly operational black box solution or the knowledge included therein?······
Post Edited (Kramer) : 3/9/2008 2:17:42 PM GMT
The scooter cost about $125 locally and the starter was sweet. I sold them both long time ago, but I might buy 1 for a 12v powerplant for sure.
Post Edited (cdesigns) : 3/9/2008 7:56:11 PM GMT
from many years i'm thinking to make a hybrid robot lawnmower, seeing your project made me take back all the stuff i collected about this project in the years.
I'm from Italy, and it is very hard to find parts here, i recently found transmotec.com which is european and provides online shop with a good documentation; USA Ebay has a very large choice of electric wheelchair gearmotors that would be perfect for this application but shipping costs times more than motor price
Defined parts which i own:
1x Controller board: bdmicro mavric IIB (Atmega) http://www.bdmicro.com/mavric-iib/
1x Higher level controller: http://www.pcengines.ch/wrap.htm AMD Geode x86 pc board with miniPCI wifi cards
2x High power (40A) H Bridge with current feedback: http://wiki.tuttoelettronica.org/index.php?title=RoboPonte_V3.1
Defined parts which i'm going to buy:
2x Worm gear 12v motors with optical encoder:
http://www.transmotec.com/shop/WormGear25W500W_WD65.aspx
The exact model is WRD65111 which is rated for 80rpm and 29.6 kg/cm out of the gearbox
I'm in doubt about their power, i used this tool http://www.societyofrobots.com/RMF_calculator.shtml to calculate the needed motors, considering a max speed of 5km/h and a weight of 15kg, with an incline angle of 10°. But i suspect this is too optimistic, the robot will weight more and i want to make it able to run on planes with > 10° inclination.
Since there are no power problems i can plan to use higher power motors, the counterpart is their cost
Another doubt regards the worm gear, as you know it is not "reversible", in the sense that trying to rotate the wheel will not cause the motor to turn, and this has advantages and disadvantages:
Advantages:
in a hill you dont need power to stay stopped
high reduction ratio in a compact and lightweight design
Disadvantages:
in a hill you dont have current feedback of the energy needed to rest, you only notice it when you start to move.
operation is not so smooth
For the engine i have found that subaru robin is selling eh35 here too; i have to call to ask them the price; it should be under 250 euros because the complete lawnmower costs 280 euros.
It looks like a good engine, it is lightweight and four strokes; the only thing it is missing is the electric start; i heard about reversible alternators; which work as starters motors when powered and as alternators when moved; it would be nice; still collecting infos.
I have to study well the mechanics to double the engine shaft to move the alternator plus the blade; and i have to manage the height of the cut too.
I'm thinking to the 2 powered wheels design; maybe its not the best for a rude lawnmower, probably 4x4 is better; i have to consider it; the problem is the cost of the motors...
Now lets go with the suggestions [noparse]:)[/noparse]
Cheers!
P.S Ken, you already heard it many times, but let me say it a time more, compliments [noparse]:)[/noparse]
I have been thinking of building a robot similar to your gas powered model except I plan to use the Parallax motor mount and wheel kit, which I just purchased, and a large capacity SLA battery which will be recharged as necessary at a docking station.
Since I am a systems engineer by trade, I hate to reinvent the wheel, so I tried to make use of your wealth of knowledge that was originally available at www.parallax.com/hybrid.
Unfortunately the link has been discontinued! Any chance of getting reinstated?
Also, where did you get the wheels/tires used on the caster assembly?
I have also read your article on this project in Robot mag and found it to be very informative.
Regards,
TCIII
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If you are going to send·a Robot·to save the world, you·better make sure it likes it the way it is!
I made the caster wheel on a CNC mill. The tires are from summer skate roller skiis - these are 3.5" pneumatic tires but they don't need a tube because they're plenty rigid without one. . . basically cross-country skiis for summer.
I've informed our WebDev group about the link being broken. I'll get that fixed right away. I need my old information too so I can continue with another project!
I've thought about using a DC motor instead of an alternator next time.
Ken
"I've thought about using a DC motor instead of an alternator next time." - You can pick up some nice, several hundred Watt,·Scooter motors on EBay for not too much·$$$·that would work as a·nice·DC generator.
Example:
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&_trksid=m37&satitle=Electric+scooter+motor
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Beau Schwabe
IC Layout Engineer
Parallax, Inc.
Post Edited (Beau Schwabe (Parallax)) : 5/27/2008 5:05:09 AM GMT
Thanks for the info and for requesting to get the link fixed. Much appreciated.
Regards,
TCIII
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If you are going to send·a Robot·to save the world, you·better make sure it likes it the way it is!
While we wait for the www.parallax.com/hybrid link to be reinstated, here is where they've put the files:
https://www.parallax.com/tabid/625/Default.aspx
Ken Gracey
I just checked and the link has been re-established.
Thanks for the help. Much appreciated.
Regards,
TCIII
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If you are going to send·a Robot·to save the world, you·better make sure it likes it the way it is!
Any chance of converting the dxf format drawings into pdf format as I do not have AutoCad?
The cost of a converter to covert dxf format into other formats is a bit steep for a one time use.
Regards,
TCIII
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If you are going to send·a Robot·to save the world, you·better make sure it likes it the way it is!
Visio can open AutoCAD drawings if you have access to it.
www.solidworks.com/pages/products/solutions/viewer.html
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When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -- HST
1uffakind.com/robots/povBitMapBuilder.php
1uffakind.com/robots/resistorLadder.php
Back mid-last-year, you posted this... did anyone take you up on it?
I've been formulating my plans... oddly enough I've attempted this very thing, even before finding this forum. I've got a lightweight Mazda alternator, and a couple different 'weedeater' engines that I've tried to connect... and now I see my errors and can proceed!
Your message quoted:
"I could always be talked out of a few HB-25s for free if somebody wanted to make a similar robot."
Those motor controllers look incredibly straightforward to integrate... can I "talk you out of" a couple?
10SI up to 55amp.
12SI 70-90amp but takes about 5hp to run at full load.
www.google.com/search?q=gm+10si&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US[noparse]:o[/noparse]fficial&client=firefox-a
www.amkproducts.com/GM_alternators.asp
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Arguing with myself--sometimes me, myself, and I don't always agree.
(Former) Caterpillar product support technician