Another pic, this one with a fan. I think the fan needs a small gap between the bottom piece and the fan, else a piece of paper could get sucked against the bottom.
Waiting for the extensions/daughterboards drawings before I change the pin header openings.
If you could craft a baffle-like structure, surrounding the fan, then you could separate the influxing airstream (cold), from the outfluxing one (hot), thus the air intake could come from notches crafted at the bottom half of the sidewalls, while the outlet could be directed to a simmilar, but wider oppenings structure, at the top half of the sidewalls.
The above setup could alleviate any suction effect, that otherwise would be pumping dust and other debris, captured, e.g., from a table top.
Deppending on the existence of a heat sink, bonded to the solder side of the board, despite the increased height, it'll allow to do a air flux reversal, thus sucking cold air from lateral notches, and discarding hot air by the bottom gap.
If you could craft a baffle-like structure, surrounding the fan, ...
Sounds a good idea, the simplest form of this could be a central mounting plate/plane the fan screws to.
That removes any fan-pillars, and the plane goes right to the edges, mounting into slots & partitions air into 2 zones.
Fans have the lowest air flow right in the middle, because of the large motor, so this will mostly be cooling first the copper, and then the P2.
.. I think the fan needs a small gap between the bottom piece and the fan, else a piece of paper could get sucked against the bottom.
Paper test is a good one, tho with stand off feet, and a inner baffle, air intake could be from both underneath, and via the corners (making use of the gap fan-bottom), to reduce any paper suck effect ?
The fan can pump air either way, so could be tested both flows & checked for best cooling.
Interesting idea but I think that is way too much work for little return. For those people that want to improve the cooling even further they could stick an array of heat sinks to the copper pour "around" the chip on the bottom. That would do a lot more to remove heat than a heat sink on top.
Regarding airflow, there is going to be relatively huge volume of air being blasted at the bottom. I don't believe separating the incoming from the outgoing would have a measurable effect.
It would be helpful if someone could spec a good 5V 50mm fan (40mm hole pattern), I figured I would just supply the fan along with the enclosure. Also want to have a version without a fan, unless there is little interest in that.
Regarding airflow, there is going to be relatively huge volume of air being blasted at the bottom. I don't believe separating the incoming from the outgoing would have a measurable effect.
Perhaps, but smarter air flow means lower fan speed/current/noise can do the same cooling.
It would be helpful if someone could spec a good 5V 50mm fan (40mm hole pattern), I figured I would just supply the fan along with the enclosure. Also want to have a version without a fan, unless there is little interest in that.
eBay has 40x10 fans for 90c/10+, 5V 120mA is all they say. The PWM one linked earlier looked nice, tho not looking low cost...
I think many may want to use these chips with passive cooling, I hate fans.
SO, I want the ability to stick a heat sink on the top, AND the bottom of the p2.
Then I can use both sides to do passive, and perhaps avoid the fan entirely.
I'd order a chip if it had a 3.3v interface. (powered by 3v, i/o, 3v.)
Or is that up to the pcb? IF so i'll wait till it gets a pcb.
The bottom of the pcb is always full of Smile (usually cpu caps) these days, move those to the chip perimeter, and let us put a heat sink under the chip too, there on a nicely via'd copper fill.
We need 50mm fans, they have the 40mm holes spacing.
If the fan mounts on an inner baffle the holes can be what you decide
I see 50mm fans are quite a lot more power, and noise... and higher prices... ($2.50 cheapest stocked at DK)
That price gives 30.0 dB(A) 1.30W 5200 RPM, but it does move 13.0 CFM (0.364m³/min)
The bottom of the pcb is always full of Smile (usually cpu caps) these days, move those to the chip perimeter, and let us put a heat sink under the chip too, there on a nicely via'd copper fill.
The CAPS are there usually for very good reasons.
However, I think this one is clear of bottom side SMD's and may even be clear of vias ?
Chip mentioned blind vias, and the renders are unclear on which vias make it right thru.
... For those people that want to improve the cooling even further they could stick an array of heat sinks to the copper pour "around" the chip on the bottom. That would do a lot more to remove heat than a heat sink on top.
Is the solder mask clear on the bottom ?
Such fins would also work with a fan.
The bottom of the pcb is always full of Smile (usually cpu caps) these days, move those to the chip perimeter, and let us put a heat sink under the chip too, there on a nicely via'd copper fill.
The CAPS are there usually for very good reasons.
However, I think this one is clear of bottom side SMD's and may even be clear of vias ?
Chip mentioned blind vias, and the renders are unclear on which vias make it right thru.
The p1 was perfect, it was able to handle same side perimeter caps and operate perfectly... .. qfp/like chips, perimeter is closest anyway...
There are no components on the bottom of the P2 Eval board. It is flat. There is solder mask, though. I don't think it would pose much of a thermal barrier.
1 to look at on the shelf (and as backup to...) 1 to use. I still have my first prop from 2005 in my tote (that I bought while I lived in the Netherlands for 2 years). I used the 2nd one, and it never blew. Still have that board in another tote, still works.
I've been soooo looking forward to P2. Congrats on getting there Chip! This is exciting. I'm in a role professionally to use the P2. Lately, I've moved to Python and the Raspberry Pi, because having a pretty Desktop-like interface makes it easier to convince VP's. My assumption has been that a P2 will fit that need. I learned to write code on the P1, and loved the determinism of assembly. I'm looking forward to getting back to that!
2 please, in any form I can get them, for whatever price you end up making them.
Monday - Tuesday: all final components and PCBs arrive at Parallax for the P2 Evaluation Board
Tuesday: David and Terrell start loading the PnP/SMT feeders, programming the machine
Wednesday - Thursday: Stephanie and I put up an on-line ordering link for the boards and notify forum members so you can place your orders. Chip will be at Parallax at this time. ON Semiconductor will be at Parallax on Thursday. We are interested in resolving the schedule through revisions and production, which depends on your testing and Chip's engineering desires.
Friday: if all goes well we could be making our first shipments. Parallax will also be formalizing the GitHub presence of P2 so there is a place to deposit code, software, etc. Jeff Martin will do this for us.
We won't be making any public hoopla and this is a quiet release for a couple of reasons you already appreciate. First, we don't want potential customers/reviewers to get the impression we're making an industry release, causing them to expect multi-platform software tools, Spin code examples, a staff of FAEs on board to answer questions, etc. And second, we don't want these boards slipping away too quickly without making sure all of you have been able to order yours.
Then, for the next month, we'd all benefit from some serious development efforts here on the forums.
Everybody on board with the vision in this regard? This is a group effort and the results we all desire are only possible with the contributions from all of you.
HEverybody on board with the vision in this regard? This is a group effort and the results we all desire are only possible with the contributions from all of you.
Sounds like a good plan. I'll help with tools if there are any that still need help. I think Eric Smith and Dave Hein have a lot of it covered already. Eric has a pretty exciting tool that can compile Spin, BASIC, and C and any language can call any other language. It should handle most of our language needs.
Everybody on board with the vision in this regard? This is a group effort and the results we all desire are only possible with the contributions from all of you.
OR, anyone have links, tips, etc on proper dev environments for the p2?
Since file transfers are needed among dev's... did you all know about this service? https://wetransfer.com/ the files only stay for 7 days.. but...
One way to share special versions of already custom-compiled programs like simpleide among devs here, etc... no need to find a ftp or http file dump.
HEverybody on board with the vision in this regard? This is a group effort and the results we all desire are only possible with the contributions from all of you.
Sounds like a good plan. I'll help with tools if there are any that still need help. I think Eric Smith and Dave Hein have a lot of it covered already. Eric has a pretty exciting tool that can compile Spin, BASIC, and C and any language can call any other language. It should handle most of our language needs.
Lots of tool development is ahead of us. We figured it was best to get some hardware in front of people and then we'll schedule an open invitation to talk about the compilers/interpreters/tools for these programming languages. It's going to be different than P1 this time. There are few (if any) development funds, interest in new languages, and we want to leverage existing programming environments where possible. I hope to speed the discussions using video conferencing tools in addition to the forums.
I had hoped to have this meeting by November, but we'll be happy now to have it before Christmas. Seems everything takes longer than it should, and I have no control over certain phases of the project development efforts as you can see. You are all invited to participate in these meetings when they occur, especially those who assisted for the last round 10+ yrs ago!
Lots of tool development is ahead of us. We figured it was best to get some hardware in front of people and then we'll schedule an open invitation to talk about the compilers/interpreters/tools for these programming languages. It's going to be different than P1 this time. There are few (if any) development funds, interest in new languages, and we want to leverage existing programming environments where possible. I hope to speed the discussions using video conferencing tools in addition to the forums.
Ken: given your contacts with schools using the P1, are there any particular languages or tools being asked for that aren't on anyone's radar here?
For those of us who really want the board, but want to make sure those that will be the biggest help get the P2 first - how long should we wait before buying to make sure the P2's get in the highest priority hands first?
Like I said I'm itching to get one, but I have a newborn and can't contribute as much as many others here.
Lots of tool development is ahead of us. We figured it was best to get some hardware in front of people and then we'll schedule an open invitation to talk about the compilers/interpreters/tools for these programming languages. It's going to be different than P1 this time. There are few (if any) development funds, interest in new languages, and we want to leverage existing programming environments where possible. I hope to speed the discussions using video conferencing tools in addition to the forums.
Ken: given your contacts with schools using the P1, are there any particular languages or tools being asked for that aren't on anyone's radar here?
So excited to be part of this path.
MicroPython. MicroPython. Did I mention MicroPython?
For those of us who really want the board, but want to make sure those that will be the biggest help get the P2 first - how long should we wait before buying to make sure the P2's get in the highest priority hands first?
Like I said I'm itching to get one, but I have a newborn and can't contribute as much as many others here.
We will try to stage ourselves a bit. I don't have a lot of success herding engineers or cats, but we will try to communicate that when the moment arrives.
We ALL need something to do around the holiday break [when the relatives arrive ].
We shall see. In 1981 Chip was fired from his newspaper delivery job with 60+ homes because he couldn't get out of bed on a regular schedule. Neighbors were calling and looking for their paper; I think Chip asked me to tell them he was "in Maui" or something along those lines.
Lots of tool development is ahead of us. We figured it was best to get some hardware in front of people and then we'll schedule an open invitation to talk about the compilers/interpreters/tools for these programming languages. It's going to be different than P1 this time. There are few (if any) development funds, interest in new languages, and we want to leverage existing programming environments where possible. I hope to speed the discussions using video conferencing tools in addition to the forums.
Ken: given your contacts with schools using the P1, are there any particular languages or tools being asked for that aren't on anyone's radar here?
So excited to be part of this path.
MicroPython. MicroPython. Did I mention MicroPython?
Ken Gracey
Is someone already looking into porting MicroPython?
Comments
In such case, a price tag of US$100k per unit needs to be considered, as a minimum. No rebate coupons allowed!
Waiting for the extensions/daughterboards drawings before I change the pin header openings.
The above setup could alleviate any suction effect, that otherwise would be pumping dust and other debris, captured, e.g., from a table top.
Deppending on the existence of a heat sink, bonded to the solder side of the board, despite the increased height, it'll allow to do a air flux reversal, thus sucking cold air from lateral notches, and discarding hot air by the bottom gap.
Only my 0.02
Sounds a good idea, the simplest form of this could be a central mounting plate/plane the fan screws to.
That removes any fan-pillars, and the plane goes right to the edges, mounting into slots & partitions air into 2 zones.
Fans have the lowest air flow right in the middle, because of the large motor, so this will mostly be cooling first the copper, and then the P2.
Paper test is a good one, tho with stand off feet, and a inner baffle, air intake could be from both underneath, and via the corners (making use of the gap fan-bottom), to reduce any paper suck effect ?
The fan can pump air either way, so could be tested both flows & checked for best cooling.
Interesting idea but I think that is way too much work for little return. For those people that want to improve the cooling even further they could stick an array of heat sinks to the copper pour "around" the chip on the bottom. That would do a lot more to remove heat than a heat sink on top.
Regarding airflow, there is going to be relatively huge volume of air being blasted at the bottom. I don't believe separating the incoming from the outgoing would have a measurable effect.
It would be helpful if someone could spec a good 5V 50mm fan (40mm hole pattern), I figured I would just supply the fan along with the enclosure. Also want to have a version without a fan, unless there is little interest in that.
eBay has 40x10 fans for 90c/10+, 5V 120mA is all they say. The PWM one linked earlier looked nice, tho not looking low cost...
Digikey has better specs.... They stock the middle one, 70mA, tho the 50mA quieter one may be fine to cool the Eval Boards large 3oz copper.
SO, I want the ability to stick a heat sink on the top, AND the bottom of the p2.
Then I can use both sides to do passive, and perhaps avoid the fan entirely.
I'd order a chip if it had a 3.3v interface. (powered by 3v, i/o, 3v.)
Or is that up to the pcb? IF so i'll wait till it gets a pcb.
The bottom of the pcb is always full of Smile (usually cpu caps) these days, move those to the chip perimeter, and let us put a heat sink under the chip too, there on a nicely via'd copper fill.
I'll take mine with a gold filigree stamped signature, directly on the chip, please.
The new, new, new bitcoin. X3 !!!
I see 50mm fans are quite a lot more power, and noise... and higher prices... ($2.50 cheapest stocked at DK)
That price gives 30.0 dB(A) 1.30W 5200 RPM, but it does move 13.0 CFM (0.364m³/min)
The CAPS are there usually for very good reasons.
However, I think this one is clear of bottom side SMD's and may even be clear of vias ?
Chip mentioned blind vias, and the renders are unclear on which vias make it right thru.
Such fins would also work with a fan.
The p1 was perfect, it was able to handle same side perimeter caps and operate perfectly... .. qfp/like chips, perimeter is closest anyway...
2 please.
1 to look at on the shelf (and as backup to...) 1 to use. I still have my first prop from 2005 in my tote (that I bought while I lived in the Netherlands for 2 years). I used the 2nd one, and it never blew. Still have that board in another tote, still works.
I've been soooo looking forward to P2. Congrats on getting there Chip! This is exciting. I'm in a role professionally to use the P2. Lately, I've moved to Python and the Raspberry Pi, because having a pretty Desktop-like interface makes it easier to convince VP's. My assumption has been that a P2 will fit that need. I learned to write code on the P1, and loved the determinism of assembly. I'm looking forward to getting back to that!
2 please, in any form I can get them, for whatever price you end up making them.
Thanks!!!
-Parsko
Here's the plan for this coming week at Parallax:
Tuesday: David and Terrell start loading the PnP/SMT feeders, programming the machine
Wednesday - Thursday: Stephanie and I put up an on-line ordering link for the boards and notify forum members so you can place your orders. Chip will be at Parallax at this time. ON Semiconductor will be at Parallax on Thursday. We are interested in resolving the schedule through revisions and production, which depends on your testing and Chip's engineering desires.
Friday: if all goes well we could be making our first shipments. Parallax will also be formalizing the GitHub presence of P2 so there is a place to deposit code, software, etc. Jeff Martin will do this for us.
We won't be making any public hoopla and this is a quiet release for a couple of reasons you already appreciate. First, we don't want potential customers/reviewers to get the impression we're making an industry release, causing them to expect multi-platform software tools, Spin code examples, a staff of FAEs on board to answer questions, etc. And second, we don't want these boards slipping away too quickly without making sure all of you have been able to order yours.
Then, for the next month, we'd all benefit from some serious development efforts here on the forums.
Everybody on board with the vision in this regard? This is a group effort and the results we all desire are only possible with the contributions from all of you.
Ken Gracey
GET THAT LINUX-PROP-DEV-BOX READY PEOPLE!!!!
---->https://forums.parallax.com/discussion/168418/building-propgcc-with-docker/p1
Then Get QT5
---->https://download.qt.io/archive/qt/5.11/5.11.2/single/qt-everywhere-src-5.11.2.tar.xz.mirrorlist
(sorry no docker available for that, you gonna havta build it)(forever...and a day)
Then get SimpleIDE
---->https://github.com/parallaxinc/SimpleIDE
(sorry no docker available for that, you gonna havta build it)
If you do all that, the Parallax WX ESP8266 WiFi Module will show up in simple ide as the programmer port, SWEET. (if its connected to your wifi)
Don't forget about the esp8266 and the p2...
yea...i know give it time...--> https://forums.parallax.com/discussion/169250/parallax-esp-wx-esp8266-wifi-module-raspberrypi-esp-open-sdk-compile-customize-it
OR, anyone have links, tips, etc on proper dev environments for the p2?
Since file transfers are needed among dev's... did you all know about this service?
https://wetransfer.com/ the files only stay for 7 days.. but...
One way to share special versions of already custom-compiled programs like simpleide among devs here, etc... no need to find a ftp or http file dump.
Lots of tool development is ahead of us. We figured it was best to get some hardware in front of people and then we'll schedule an open invitation to talk about the compilers/interpreters/tools for these programming languages. It's going to be different than P1 this time. There are few (if any) development funds, interest in new languages, and we want to leverage existing programming environments where possible. I hope to speed the discussions using video conferencing tools in addition to the forums.
I had hoped to have this meeting by November, but we'll be happy now to have it before Christmas. Seems everything takes longer than it should, and I have no control over certain phases of the project development efforts as you can see. You are all invited to participate in these meetings when they occur, especially those who assisted for the last round 10+ yrs ago!
Ken Gracey
Ken: given your contacts with schools using the P1, are there any particular languages or tools being asked for that aren't on anyone's radar here?
So excited to be part of this path.
Like I said I'm itching to get one, but I have a newborn and can't contribute as much as many others here.
MicroPython. MicroPython. Did I mention MicroPython?
Ken Gracey
We will try to stage ourselves a bit. I don't have a lot of success herding engineers or cats, but we will try to communicate that when the moment arrives.
We ALL need something to do around the holiday break [when the relatives arrive
Ken Gracey
We shall see. In 1981 Chip was fired from his newspaper delivery job with 60+ homes because he couldn't get out of bed on a regular schedule. Neighbors were calling and looking for their paper; I think Chip asked me to tell them he was "in Maui" or something along those lines.
Ken Gracey
Sounds good.
MicroPython could be a huge deal.