Not shure what I did, but if the subject is that politically (+/-), incorrect, I'll stay sunk, I'm not trying to advertise anything either.
There are some wonderful contributions to as to why this type of motor won't work.
Not shure what I did, but if the subject is that politically (+/-), incorrect, I'll stay sunk, I'm not trying to advertise anything either.
There are some wonderful contributions to as to why this type of motor won't work.
Not shure what I did, but if the subject is that politically (+/-), incorrect, I'll stay sunk, I'm not trying to advertise anything either.
There are some wonderful contributions to as to why this type of motor won't work.
Sorry, it's me who might have been politically incorrect. Indeed, I do not like political correctness, as this leads to scissors in your head. There is a different cultural behavior distributed over the world. Once there was a time, when we aimed to make Germany great again. We were taught, our straight forward way was not the right one, computers must not be build on base of mechanical components, even relais are not appropriate the moment vacuum tubes are available and switching to late to vacuum tubes kept us from using transistors.
And again the world is changing. This morning I left my house and realized, no crowd around applauding. I realized that fake news were spread, that I will stay in my bed today! What an unhappy situation.
OK, but I believe indeed, this thread makes sense, because I took the time to tell a little about the concept of ENTROPY, which is very important and undestimatete to a large degree. Having understood this concept would keep all engineers from trying to create free energy machines and help focus them on machines that collect energy from the environment not collected over eons, but from current cash flow, that is, solar radiation, wether PV, wind, biomass.
We can not be apolitical without being not more than animals! And all I say is pure irony!
Not sure what I did, but if the subject is that politically (+/-), incorrect...
I'm not sure what politics or political correctness has to do with this. The thread should be sunk, if not totally deleted, on the grounds of it showcasing bad science, perpetuating misinformation, possibly a deliberate attempt at deception. These "free energy" scams have been motivated by attempts at outright fraud. The perpetrators should taken out the back and clubbed to death.
Well, OK, the clubbing may not be politically acceptable
@evanh
It's interesting to note a number of individuals felt the sinking was deserved purely because it was a free-energy topic.
In case you were including me there, see above.
@ErNa,
I do not like political correctness, as this leads to scissors in your head.
I love the way you put that. Totally agree.
They are also very straight talking here in Finland too. The Finnish Linus Torvalds has been getting a lot of criticism recently for the strident and forthright way he manages his Linux project. It's all silly.
We were taught, our straight forward way was not the right one, computers must not be build on base of mechanical components, even relais are not appropriate the moment vacuum tubes are available...
Not quite sure what you meant there. I was just in the Science Museum in Berlin. There I was thrilled to see early computers by Konrad Zuse. I read that Zuse and his company originally kept away from vacuum tubes and stuck to relays and such on the grounds of the unreliability of tubes at the time. Perhaps that was a wrong call. I don't know.
...this thread makes sense, because I took the time to tell a little about the concept of ENTROPY
Yes. The counter arguments about energy, energy conservation, entropy, etc are what promotes this thread from "delete it" to "sink it".
Problem is, the man in the street, without any mathematical chops or experimental background, has a problem in deciding if he should believe the "free energy" scammers or the real scientists/engineers.
And so it goes on with other scientific debates we are having in the world today. Which is where politics comes in....
As far as political correctness, all I meant by it is: That this is a highly charged subject. You are either one of these people with the fantastic contraptions, or your totally against the very idea. There should be warnings in forum rules, not to tread into this territory.
In order to save face on this thread, I will be happy to delete the content of my post's. I certainty do not want to mislead any one, because of my own ignorance on the subject.
Feel free to do what ever you think you have to with this thread, it doesn't have a thing to do with freedom of speech. And there are Not any words out there that are going to hurt my feelings. The scissors and clubs and stuff, I can deal with that to. It has been a long time since I was intimidated by anything or anyone.
BTW: Thank You, ErNA and Duane. For looking out for my rights. I had no idea what "be sunk" meant. And would have went right by me.
MOD's CAN REMOVE THE WHOLE THREAD, IF IT'S ALRIGHT WITH EVERYONE ELSE.
If you delete this thread then we might have to delete others like this magic switch box etc. I find them interesting as it is a challenge to figure out how they are faking it. Was anyone offended? Was there offensive language? Were these fakes being sold on the forum? See, no harm done.
Hmm, I see the thread has been sunk even though it's still on topic ... and informative, afaik.
What the heck!
I thought we were going to at least get a notice when this diabolical tool is used.
Can someone please confirm thread sinking will be done without notice?
Duane, This is the official terms that Parallax put forth when they started the forums:
Removal of Posts/Locked Posts/Relocation of Posts:
Parallax Discussion Forums’ moderators hold the right to remove, sink, lock, or relocate errant, overly negative, or belligerent posts and threads. In some cases this action will warrant public notification or warning; however not all corrections made will require such action. We can choose to conduct these actions privately. If the inappropriate behavior continues after warnings have been issued, failure to comply will result in a temporary and/or permanent ban.
Personally, I will notify if I am moderating the thread from now on. I will also entertain reason to not sink. Don't need to offend this great group of friends.
We all believe in reason. This is, why we are here. Parallax is based on the idea of education. Chip showed that the parallel way with unified processors is better than the interrupt way with specialized peripheriald IF your intention is not to make money, but to create brilliance. The highest level of sophistication, according to my opinion, is to enable others to do what only the genius can do. But we should NOT encapsulate this knowledge, but have it open. The most simple principles evolve to complexity very fast and there is alway need for genius' like us to discover new dimensions ;-)
Turings test says: a system is intelligent (smart), whenever you can not decide if your counterpart is man or machine. This principle should not be applied if you face a smart bomb. ;-) But this system fails if the machine is smarter than you because you were not educated. Some times wake up calls are needed!
I think puzzles like the "magic switch box" are great. As long as they are presented as such. Who does not like a good "magic" trick?
I remember, as a young teenager in the early 1970's, my friend showed off the first LED I had ever seen. What? You mean it lights up when connected one way around but not the other? It's a diode? Amazing! Before seeing that anyone could have made a very simple "magic switch box" with LEDs that would have totally confounded me.
These "free energy" and "over unity" guys don't do that though. They often say physics is wrong, we know better, bla bla.
The point is: there is always a situation where energy is for free, but not to everybody. As they only tell half the truth, they have followers which pay. This is buried deep in humans: hope.
But "follow the money" can mean to go with the money downstream or upstream. The last is difficult, dangerous, but can be a eye-opener. As we go the propeller path, we create energy from nothing but an idea. In the end, success will come from those, that didn't go with us, but will only use what was created. And that is free energy...
Issac Newton is turning in his grave. I guess these guys never heard of Conservation of Energy. All of these examples are all gimmicks and scams. Perpetual motion motors are all fantasy. Try swinging a pendgulum and see if it swings forever without assistance. But it's quite entertaining YouTube video
Oddly enough I was amazed to find recently that Newton did not have anything much to say about energy. We kind of always knew that as none of his laws have any mention of energy. Just never thought about it much as all this high school physics tends to get casually labeled "Newtonian" (As opposed to the new fangled "quantum" and "relativistic" stuff).
Leibnitz proposed a formula for kinetic energy but was out by a factor of 2. It was about a hundred years later that the modern ideas of energy developed. And later when the relation of energy and heat was established. Energy conservation was down to Kelvin.
The point to me seems, we have an uncompleted picture from what energy is. We see an energy source, connect this source to a device and the energy is transported to the device. So energy seems to be a medium, that can move but it doesn't explain why energy shows so many faces. But if you imagine energy as a gas, then you have some way to structure the gas. In a gas you can with the help of a pump, compress gas in one area and then release it. The gas starts to move and due to the inheritant mass the speed of the molecules is limited, so you see something like a shock wave. Or watch the vortex cannons. But electromagnetic energy for example has no mass. In this sense it could move at infinite speed. If there is not something that just sets the speed to the speed of light. Electromagnetic energy can not move faster or slower.
Now it is no longer the energy that moves, but it is the distribution of energy that changes by shifting the energy. That means: is we need a certain amount of energy to do a job, the difference in energy density we need is depending of the "initial pressure", that is, how much energy is filling the "empty space". If I remember correctly: a black body of 1 m" area at room temperature emits 300 Watt of infra red light. But it doesn't cool down, because the same moment it absorbs 300 W. That keeps the temperature constant.
But why can you store the same amount of energy at different temperature? We know this principle from capacitors. If a capacitor incorporates a dielectricum, the dielectricums characteristic (micro structure) determince how much energy can be stored at a given voltage. Matter has this role in the field of energy. Matter can vibrate in more or less complex schemes and energy is distributed between all the different vibration modes. Entropy is nothing but a number that manifests, how much energy can be squeesed into a volume of matter to reach a certain temperature. You start from temperature zero, add some joule of energy to reach temperature 1, multiply energy times temperatur difference, add energy times temp-diff to reach temperature 2 and continue to do until you reach the end temperature. And you will see: this is a very characteristic number for every type of matter, even when an atom creates different lattices like carbon does.
It says there is something in common with book high up on a shelf and that dog running in the yard. What on Earth could could it be?
Once you have an idea of mass and gravity you can start writing mathematical expressions about that book. "mg", "mgh", whatever. Similarly with an idea of mass and velocity you can start writing expressions about the dog, mv, mv², whatever.
Eventually you notice that some expression that applies to the static case always equals some other expression that applies to the dynamic case. In a closed system. If a moving object collides with a stationary one, causing itself to stop and the other to move, these expressions still sum to a constant. Clearly something has moved from one object to the other.
Call it energy.
Thinking about it, energy is such a weird concept that even Newton didn't nail it down. He was so close!
Is energy really a thing? Or just a mathematical fiction that happens to model the world quite well?
It certainly is a concept. It allows us to describe reality and to forsee our electricity bill. So it is real. But if we do not compare energy to something we think to understand, like water, gas, ... we will not find out, what is common and what makes it unique.
The point is: we have no clear understanding of the concept of ACTION (Wirkung). Planck opened a door, but we are blinded by the incoming sun and now we do not see, what Planck really said (wrote). He nailed it down, but had not the time to fully understand what he discovered. Because the data necessary was only collected later.
We need an understanding what ACTION mean, in special: the quantum of action. But as long as profund physicists don't get the difference between torque (Nm) and energy (N*m) I do not see a way.
I guess there aren't many physicists that don't the difference between torque and energy. Even if the units can be confusing. There is a reason it is preferred to refer to the unit of energy as "joule".
A guess is a guess, evidence is less. (a proposal for a twitter feed) No, just read the discussions in wikipedia and you will be my follower ;-) "Torque has dimension force times distance, symbolically L2MT−2. Official SI literature suggests using the unit newton metre (N⋅m) or the unit joule per radian.[8] The unit newton metre is properly denoted N⋅m or N m.[9] This avoids ambiguity with mN, millinewtons."
Following explanations that there indeed is a difference
As long as you take something for given, you will not ask, where the hurdles are. So you have to ask the right question. An example: today we know about black holes, because we step by step discovered new properties of matter. But: why didn't we ask: if nothing in universe can be infinite, how long is the law of gravity valid? If the distance of two points of mass goes to zero, the force between them goes to infinity. And what happens to gravitational energy? And those questions can be raised for other physical behavior too. But, we discuss ever running machines. ..
Mike, where do you dig up all this broken stuff from?
In a futile search of a backup power supply, that doesn't require a fossil fuel, like a gas generator that sits around for ten years, and is not ready when it's needed. Or a small computer backups that needs the battery replaced every couple of years, and never seen any use. I sure would like one of the power supplies NASA is using these days.
But that will never be in the hands of the common person.
I seem to be one of those individuals that can drain a battery by looking at it.
As long as you take something for given, you will not ask, where the hurdles are. So you have to ask the right question.
I guess that is why Newton and Einstein are so famous. They asked questions people had not asked before. Or at least considered possibilities nobody had considered before. And importantly came up with some useful conclusions.
I'm not sure about the black hole idea but those infinites in Newton's law of gravitation bothered people for a long time.
...if nothing in universe can be infinite,...
Wait a minute, who ever said such a thing?
You might like to hear Nima Arkani-Hamed talk about the "End of Space Time"
He is one of a new generation of Physicist looking at those "awkward" questions.
Is the known age of our planet based on when it was formed, Or from the material that it came from?
The universe is estimated at 13.8 billion years old, but earth is estimated at 4.5 billion. And if we are traveling through space because of central big bang core, why isn't everything the same age. The central mass of creation, to what we know now, should be the same age.and why can't we peer into the big bang, is our optics not powerful enough, or just too late to catch the show.
Mike,
You're on a geek forum and you're acting like you haven't seen/read anything about the formation of elements and stars and planets? Do you not watch any science docos? How old are you?
Comments
What the heck!
I thought we were going to at least get a notice when this diabolical tool is used.
Can someone please confirm thread sinking will be done without notice?
Not shure what I did, but if the subject is that politically (+/-), incorrect, I'll stay sunk, I'm not trying to advertise anything either.
There are some wonderful contributions to as to why this type of motor won't work.
All is good. See:
http://forums.parallax.com/discussion/166063/thread-sinking-policy#latest
It's interesting to note a number of individuals felt the sinking was deserved purely because it was a free-energy topic.
Yikes, that was back in 2010! I'd never heard of the thing so this detail quickly made me ask why ... a quick search later ... https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/what-ever-happened-bloom-energy and https://www.quora.com/Why-are-Bloom-Boxes-still-ranking-behind-in-the-stream-of-todays-modern-sources-of-energy and http://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/the-bloom-is-off-bloom-energy/ we have a disappointing outcome.
Mike, where do you dig up all this broken stuff from?
And again the world is changing. This morning I left my house and realized, no crowd around applauding. I realized that fake news were spread, that I will stay in my bed today! What an unhappy situation.
OK, but I believe indeed, this thread makes sense, because I took the time to tell a little about the concept of ENTROPY, which is very important and undestimatete to a large degree. Having understood this concept would keep all engineers from trying to create free energy machines and help focus them on machines that collect energy from the environment not collected over eons, but from current cash flow, that is, solar radiation, wether PV, wind, biomass.
We can not be apolitical without being not more than animals! And all I say is pure irony!
Well, OK, the clubbing may not be politically acceptable
@evanh In case you were including me there, see above.
@ErNa, I love the way you put that. Totally agree.
They are also very straight talking here in Finland too. The Finnish Linus Torvalds has been getting a lot of criticism recently for the strident and forthright way he manages his Linux project. It's all silly. Not quite sure what you meant there. I was just in the Science Museum in Berlin. There I was thrilled to see early computers by Konrad Zuse. I read that Zuse and his company originally kept away from vacuum tubes and stuck to relays and such on the grounds of the unreliability of tubes at the time. Perhaps that was a wrong call. I don't know. Yes. The counter arguments about energy, energy conservation, entropy, etc are what promotes this thread from "delete it" to "sink it".
Problem is, the man in the street, without any mathematical chops or experimental background, has a problem in deciding if he should believe the "free energy" scammers or the real scientists/engineers.
And so it goes on with other scientific debates we are having in the world today. Which is where politics comes in....
In order to save face on this thread, I will be happy to delete the content of my post's. I certainty do not want to mislead any one, because of my own ignorance on the subject.
Feel free to do what ever you think you have to with this thread, it doesn't have a thing to do with freedom of speech. And there are Not any words out there that are going to hurt my feelings. The scissors and clubs and stuff, I can deal with that to. It has been a long time since I was intimidated by anything or anyone.
BTW: Thank You, ErNA and Duane. For looking out for my rights. I had no idea what "be sunk" meant. And would have went right by me.
MOD's CAN REMOVE THE WHOLE THREAD, IF IT'S ALRIGHT WITH EVERYONE ELSE.
Duane, This is the official terms that Parallax put forth when they started the forums:
Personally, I will notify if I am moderating the thread from now on. I will also entertain reason to not sink. Don't need to offend this great group of friends.
Reference:
http://forums.parallax.com/discussion/134682/forum-rules-and-guidelines#latest
Turings test says: a system is intelligent (smart), whenever you can not decide if your counterpart is man or machine. This principle should not be applied if you face a smart bomb. ;-) But this system fails if the machine is smarter than you because you were not educated. Some times wake up calls are needed!
I think puzzles like the "magic switch box" are great. As long as they are presented as such. Who does not like a good "magic" trick?
I remember, as a young teenager in the early 1970's, my friend showed off the first LED I had ever seen. What? You mean it lights up when connected one way around but not the other? It's a diode? Amazing! Before seeing that anyone could have made a very simple "magic switch box" with LEDs that would have totally confounded me.
These "free energy" and "over unity" guys don't do that though. They often say physics is wrong, we know better, bla bla.
But "follow the money" can mean to go with the money downstream or upstream. The last is difficult, dangerous, but can be a eye-opener. As we go the propeller path, we create energy from nothing but an idea. In the end, success will come from those, that didn't go with us, but will only use what was created. And that is free energy...
Leibnitz proposed a formula for kinetic energy but was out by a factor of 2. It was about a hundred years later that the modern ideas of energy developed. And later when the relation of energy and heat was established. Energy conservation was down to Kelvin.
This is all cutting edge stuff
Now it is no longer the energy that moves, but it is the distribution of energy that changes by shifting the energy. That means: is we need a certain amount of energy to do a job, the difference in energy density we need is depending of the "initial pressure", that is, how much energy is filling the "empty space". If I remember correctly: a black body of 1 m" area at room temperature emits 300 Watt of infra red light. But it doesn't cool down, because the same moment it absorbs 300 W. That keeps the temperature constant.
But why can you store the same amount of energy at different temperature? We know this principle from capacitors. If a capacitor incorporates a dielectricum, the dielectricums characteristic (micro structure) determince how much energy can be stored at a given voltage. Matter has this role in the field of energy. Matter can vibrate in more or less complex schemes and energy is distributed between all the different vibration modes. Entropy is nothing but a number that manifests, how much energy can be squeesed into a volume of matter to reach a certain temperature. You start from temperature zero, add some joule of energy to reach temperature 1, multiply energy times temperatur difference, add energy times temp-diff to reach temperature 2 and continue to do until you reach the end temperature. And you will see: this is a very characteristic number for every type of matter, even when an atom creates different lattices like carbon does.
It says there is something in common with book high up on a shelf and that dog running in the yard. What on Earth could could it be?
Once you have an idea of mass and gravity you can start writing mathematical expressions about that book. "mg", "mgh", whatever. Similarly with an idea of mass and velocity you can start writing expressions about the dog, mv, mv², whatever.
Eventually you notice that some expression that applies to the static case always equals some other expression that applies to the dynamic case. In a closed system. If a moving object collides with a stationary one, causing itself to stop and the other to move, these expressions still sum to a constant. Clearly something has moved from one object to the other.
Call it energy.
Thinking about it, energy is such a weird concept that even Newton didn't nail it down. He was so close!
Is energy really a thing? Or just a mathematical fiction that happens to model the world quite well?
The point is: we have no clear understanding of the concept of ACTION (Wirkung). Planck opened a door, but we are blinded by the incoming sun and now we do not see, what Planck really said (wrote). He nailed it down, but had not the time to fully understand what he discovered. Because the data necessary was only collected later.
We need an understanding what ACTION mean, in special: the quantum of action. But as long as profund physicists don't get the difference between torque (Nm) and energy (N*m) I do not see a way.
Following explanations that there indeed is a difference
Mind you I have forgotten most of the physics I learned then. Maybe I forgot that as well
In a futile search of a backup power supply, that doesn't require a fossil fuel, like a gas generator that sits around for ten years, and is not ready when it's needed. Or a small computer backups that needs the battery replaced every couple of years, and never seen any use. I sure would like one of the power supplies NASA is using these days.
But that will never be in the hands of the common person.
I seem to be one of those individuals that can drain a battery by looking at it.
I'm not sure about the black hole idea but those infinites in Newton's law of gravitation bothered people for a long time. Wait a minute, who ever said such a thing?
You might like to hear Nima Arkani-Hamed talk about the "End of Space Time"
He is one of a new generation of Physicist looking at those "awkward" questions.
The universe is estimated at 13.8 billion years old, but earth is estimated at 4.5 billion. And if we are traveling through space because of central big bang core, why isn't everything the same age. The central mass of creation, to what we know now, should be the same age.and why can't we peer into the big bang, is our optics not powerful enough, or just too late to catch the show.
You're on a geek forum and you're acting like you haven't seen/read anything about the formation of elements and stars and planets? Do you not watch any science docos? How old are you?