When talking about an OS for the prop, I agree that FORTH is most appropriate for the P8X32A. I gives us everything we need from an OS, without most of the overhead. The Prop chip chip is doing its job best with everything is framed in terms of bit banging, and this is what forth does.
I would suggest looking at PropForth as well Tachyon if you decide to go the FORTH route. PropForth is designed to get us to assembler code WITHOUT having to write assembler code; rather than relying on the speed of the high level forth code, and ProForth has built in facilities for integrating with an eternal node (linux, android, windows, OSX) for long term storage, advanced communications, heavy crunching etc.
Good luck with the Indegogo. I would consider backing a Kickstarter for a product; but usually not indegogo, which is best for for a "charity" type project, as we don't typically don't expect to actually receive anything from indegogo. At Least I haven't.
Also, the project is cool, but its 42 euros for a candle. As Heater and David Bets said, how can I justify this to my budget? Is there some other functionality where it is more than an electric candle? The tech to "blow it out" is great, but its an expensive way to implement a switch. What use justifies all the tech in here?
Also, the project is cool, but its 42 euros for a candle. As Heater and David Bets said, how can I justify this to my budget? Is there some other functionality where it is more than an electric candle? The tech to "blow it out" is great, but its an expensive way to implement a switch. What use justifies all the tech in here?
I'm still thinking that it might be a good adjuct to a board game. I mentioned rolling dice before but I think it could be used for much more than that. I was thinking it might be possible to use it to replace the tower in the old "Dark Tower" board game for example.
One thing that bothers me is the idea of investing in IndiGoGo that charges your card even if the project doesn't achieve even a minimal level of funding. Will I get anything from my investment if you raise significantly less than your first goal?
Edit: Actually, it looks like I invested a hackaday.io project with Antti Lukats for his Soft Propeller board and never received anything in return. However, IndiGoGo is a similar model.
I sold my flat in Moscow and invested money to this project.
I spent 3 years to make cool product.
I want to make it happen.
Manufacturing of parts for FlameTube is already started.
You will get your devices anyway. But the more devices ordered, the better support I can provide to you.
To let "ordinary" people to buy the product, we have to show growing at start.
That's why I ask Parallax community for help.
Please, ask all of your friends personally to support the campaign on Indiegogo. Share the link of the campaign in social networks. Explain the advantages of FlameTube to everybody. I ask you to be evangelists of FlameTube.
I would like to provide Developer Kits and additional FlameTubes for free to every person, who help me to reach the goals.
To make your referral links, do the following:
1. Create your account on Indiegogo and log in. It's important to be logged in to count your referrers correctly!
2. Open FlameTube campaign. Click "Follow".
3. Make any contribution (at least, order "Digital thank you").
4. Click the button with the chain icon. Place the code to your website.
5. Use buttons "Facebook", "Twitter", "Mail" on the campaign page to share the link. Be creative when write your messages!
6. If you send the link to somebody you personally know, call him/her and explain, why it's important to support the campaign. This will significantly increase the chance.
7. Track your results from time to time. The instruction is here: https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/203660683-How-To-Participate-In-A-Referral-Contest
Depending on amount of contributions (excluding shipping cost), received from your referrers, you will get the following:
1000 euro - I will send you FlameTube Developer Kit for free (FlameTube Set for non-developers).
2000 euro - I will send you FlameTube Developer Kit and FlameTube Set (two FlameTube Sets for non-developers).
3000 euro - I will send you FlameTube Developer Kit and FlameTube Fan Pack (FlameTube Set and FlameTube Fan Pack for non-developers).
I believe that together wi will make it happen. Thank you!
...
Also it's not clear what communications ability comes without the "FlameTube IoT Battery"
...
That would be my question, too.
USB 1.0 and 2.0 (3.x is not supported): host and device; supporting storage devices, Bluetooth dongles, serial devices (incl. several modems), HID (keyboard, mouse) ????
Hey guys!
...
I have an idea to make a special perk for you - FlameTube Developer Kit. It will contain the following:
- FlameTube;
- developer Board with USB3 connector for FlameTube, FTDI chip, pins, connected to all FlameTube I/Os, and free space for maketing;
- instructions.
So, it is a USB3 connector and the additional connections are "misused" as the 5 multi purpose I/O lines ??
Hm, developer Board?
I would need a USB-Socket, instructions....
Can the case of the FlameTube be opened?
...
Also it's not clear what communications ability comes without the "FlameTube IoT Battery"
...
That would be my question, too.
USB 1.0 and 2.0 (3.x is not supported): host and device; supporting storage devices, Bluetooth dongles, serial devices (incl. several modems), HID (keyboard, mouse) ????
Hey guys!
...
I have an idea to make a special perk for you - FlameTube Developer Kit. It will contain the following:
- FlameTube;
- developer Board with USB3 connector for FlameTube, FTDI chip, pins, connected to all FlameTube I/Os, and free space for maketing;
- instructions.
So, it is a USB3 connector and the additional connections are "misused" as the 5 multi purpose I/O lines ??
Hm, developer Board?
I would need a USB-Socket, instructions....
Can the case of the FlameTube be opened?
Thanks for your great questions!
1. FlameTube contain a small circuit, compatible to most USB libraries for Prop. For example, you can connect a cheap $1 Bluetooth USB dongle to FlameTube directly to turn FlameTube into a notification point for your smartphone. So, you can connect USB devices directly, using existing code from http://obex.parallax.com OBEX also contain a lot of libs, supporting connection to many non-USB devices.
2. I don't think that they are "misused" because you can use the connector as normal USB port. And OPTIONALLY you can use its pins to connect to non-USB devices.
3. It's not necessary to open the case for FlameTube programming. All you need is a FTDI cable (USB to serial) and a small capacitor. The same about connecting peripherals. There are no unused pins internally. All free pins are connected to the USB connector via protective resistors. Of course, in theory, you can open the case. But you will lose the warranty and will have a risk of breaking plastic parts. If you want to know, what is inside, watch our crowdfunding video, there you can see the PCB enough detailed. If you need more info, just ask.
4. For developers, the instructions, as well as the connection circuitry, will be provided with FlameTube.
Also, the project is cool, but its 42 euros for a candle. As Heater and David Bets said, how can I justify this to my budget? Is there some other functionality where it is more than an electric candle? The tech to "blow it out" is great, but its an expensive way to implement a switch. What use justifies all the tech in here?
1. FlameTube contain a small circuit, compatimle to most USB libraries for Prop. For example, you can connect a cheap $1 Bluetooth USB dongle to FlameTube directly to turn FlameTube into a notification point for your smartphone. So, you can connect USB devices directly, using existing code from http://obex.parallax.com OBEX also contain a lot of libs, supporting connection to many non-USB devices.
2. I don't think that they are "misused" because you can use the connector as normal USB port. And OPTIONALLY you can use its pins to connect to non-USB devices.
3. It's not necessary to open the case for FlameTube programming. All you need is a FTDI cable (USB to serial) and a small capacitor. The same about connecting peripherals. There are no unused pins internally. All free pins are connected to the USB connector via protective resistors. Of course, in theory, you can open the case. But you will lose the warranty and will have a risk of breaking plastic parts. If you want to know, what is inside, watch our crowdfunding video, there you can see the PCB enough detailed. If you need more info, just ask.
4. For developers, the instructions, as well as the connection circuitry, will be provided with FlameTube.
Kind regards, Alexey
Thank you for your answer, Alexey.
1. Ah! I never realized that there is Host Stack in Obex.
2. So the D-/D+ pins of the connector are always used for USB-things. So it can be always a USB1/2 device/host.
3. Two of the other 5 pins are for serial connection to the internal bootloader and/or operating-system, where I could load my scripts/programms/send commands... So I have three free pins, that I could use for other things (I2C, SPI, PWM...)?
4. Hm. I want know everything before ;-). Especially if the thing has a "one way" casing.
What Size has the EEprom (32kBytes or 64kBytes) ? If 64kBytes, can I use it for my "program" to save something?
....
1. Ah! I never realized that there is Host Stack in Obex.
2. So the D-/D+ pins of the connector are always used for USB-things. So it can be always a USB1/2 device/host.
3. Two of the other 5 pins are for serial connection to the internal bootloader and/or operating-system, where I could load my scripts/programms/send commands... So I have three free pins, that I could use for other things (I2C, SPI, PWM...)?
4. Hm. I want know everything before ;-). Especially if the thing has a "one way" casing.
What Size has the EEprom (32kBytes or 64kBytes) ? If 64kBytes, can I use it for my "program" to save something?
....
1. I'm not sure that I got it from OBEX, but I got it from somewhere...
2,3. There are 5 multi-purpose pins, that you can use for anything, plus RESET. Two are USB D+/D-, but also can be used for anything else. Then, two serial, for loading apps/OS and debugging. They also can be used as you like, when not used for loading apps. The next one also can be used freely.
4. Please tell me you wishes about the casing. What would you like to do?
5. EEPROM size is 64k. You can use extra 32K for your data, if it's not used by an OS.
1. I'm not sure that I got it from OBEX, but I got it from somewhere...
2,3. There are 5 multi-purpose pins, that you can use for anything, plus RESET. Two are USB D+/D-, but also can be used for anything else. Then, two serial, for loading apps/OS and debugging. They also can be used as you like, when not used for loading apps. The next one also can be used freely.
4. Please tell me you wishes about the casing. What would you like to do?
5. EEPROM size is 64k. You can use extra 32K for your data, if it's not used by an OS.
Kind regards, Alexey
Ok, now I think I got the picture. There is Reset and the two serial pins are the boatloader pins 30/31 for flashing. So If I know the complete hardware, I could write/use my own firmware/OS.
EEProm size of 64k is good.
I have no special wishes about the casing, but for 89 Euros it should not look too cheap. And I hate it, if I can not open it. Sometimes it's just a loose connection or a bad capacitor why a device is not working, but if you open it, the casing is broken.
I have no special wishes about the casing, but for 89 Euros it should not look too cheap.
The casing and the dock of final version are made of aluminum alloy series 7000 (like Apple Watch Sport) from a solid piece of metal, using Unibody technology. The ring is made of polished stainless steel. The dock is enough heavy. It's not cheap and looks cool and solid, like a part of high-end audio equipment (maybe, a bit better). The surface quality should be similar to the quality of aluminum surfaces of Apple devices. BTW, my gadgets from Apple and high-end tube amplifiers inspired me to create this design. They look great together.
The casing of prototypes, shown on the crowdfunding video, was made of stainless steel by CNC turning and milling, and, also, for some of prototypes, - of aluminum alloy. Also, we used temporary (handmade) version of rings.
But why 89 euro? Right now you can order it for 42 (of course, the quantity is limited).
The first batch for early birds is already running! See the campaign update with the photo!
Early Birds have a chance to get their device before official release.
The earlier you make a contribution, the earlier you receive your FlameTube.
First, what we need to implement consumer apps, is a good OS. Some time ago I started to write my own, but didn't finished... Maybe it would be good to take one of Prop OSes, developed by you, and add all necessary FlameTube-related functions. What do you think?
Kind regards, Alexey
Cluso99 has an OS you might be able to use. I think Dave Hein does as well.
The problem with using any of the OSes that have been written for the Prop is that they require an SD card. I don't think the FlameTube has an SD card. I'm a bit confused by the desire to have an OS on the FlameTube. Maybe the only thing that is needed is something that can save an app in the upper 32K of the EEPROM and then run it at a later time. So there might be some reason to have a booter/loader program that allows changing apps.
First, what we need to implement consumer apps, is a good OS. Some time ago I started to write my own, but didn't finished... Maybe it would be good to take one of Prop OSes, developed by you, and add all necessary FlameTube-related functions. What do you think?
Kind regards, Alexey
Cluso99 has an OS you might be able to use. I think Dave Hein does as well.
The problem with using any of the OSes that have been written for the Prop is that they require an SD card. I don't think the FlameTube has an SD card. I'm a bit confused by the desire to have an OS on the FlameTube. Maybe the only thing that is needed is something that can save an app in the upper 32K of the EEPROM and then run it at a later time. So there might be some reason to have a booter/loader program that allows changing apps.
I think, storing FlameTube apps on a smartphone is an option.
I could make the dock with addition connector for $1 Bluetooth USB dongle. Or provide a power supply with two USB sockets, connected in parallel. Even without it, any electronic hobbyist can make Y-type USB cable to connect the dongle to existing dock together with power supply. I think, it's the fastest and cheapest way to add this functionality.
In this case, users will be able to manage, install and control apps in realtime over-the-air.
All we need is to create a loader and a simple iOS/Android app.
Making a phone app could be interesting. In fact, I guess one wouldn't even need the FlameTube hardware to do that. I have a BeagleBoard Green Wireless board the supports BLE that I could use.
Using a Prop1, sure is nice for Parallax and it's hardcore users.
But how are you reaching the outside world?, Bluetooth?
Most ble-modules allows for programs to run on the same ic, and multiplexing LEDs is something it could do at the same time with no problems.
You need to get the price down to $29.95 with a b.o.m of ~$10, so every part used should be analyzed for cost and how few external parts they need.
Using a Prop1, sure is nice for Parallax and it's hardcore users.
But how are you reaching the outside world?, Bluetooth?
Most ble-modules allows for programs to run on the same ic, and multiplexing LEDs is something it could do at the same time with no problems.
You need to get the price down to $29.95 with a b.o.m of ~$10, so every part used should be analyzed for cost and how few external parts they need.
1. Currently, we have a Prop-based FlameTube, and it's possible to implement Bluetooth connection using $1 USB dongle. Why not to do that?
2. Yes, I can make $29.95 lamp, based on an ARM SoC (enabled with Wi-Fi and/or Bluetooth) with BOM=$10, but for this price you will get:
- simple plastic casing instead of premium casing+dock, made of aircraft-grade 7000 alloy with unibody technology
- no sensors and interactivity
- cheap version of the tube, without PVD mirror coating
- no grayscale instead of 256-level grayscale (or we have to additionally use a LED matrix driver chip, increasing the cost)
- not so easy and interesting programming
It's simply another kind of product for another kind of target audience - not premium, not for aesthetes, but a cheap wi-fi smart lamp. Why not? Cheap smart lamps are popular now...
Do you think that such a device would be more profitable and more interesting?
Lets break down what you really need for it still to work.
With 96LED's per side, need's just 2mA each even if multiplexed for a 12.5% max duty as you want candle effect, not 100Watt bulb equivalent.
Drive columns with a 3-to-8 decoder, a 24mA version should not need mosfets, Plus side: no risk possible ever that a user could enable two columns by mistake this way.
Drive cathode directly with 12mcu pins, for 256level software emulated 12pwm's:
lets say the arm cycles needed are of 1 cycle type, dec->ifz->dir-pin, so lets make it 4-5 cycles or 100ns at 48mhz
*12 *256 = each column will take 0.3 millisecond * 8 = 400 Hz total refresh rate (only 60-100Hz needed for human eye)
You can get two individual messages on both sides at 200Hz, either using more gpio for cathodes or use two 3-to-8 decoder's and alternate its enable pin, or a 4-to-16 decoder.
So I think a $1.50 arm or $4.00 fcc certified ble-module could do it, it's nothing wrong of using a P1, it's just it have a hard time reaching the outside for 2016 technology's.
Comments
I would suggest looking at PropForth as well Tachyon if you decide to go the FORTH route. PropForth is designed to get us to assembler code WITHOUT having to write assembler code; rather than relying on the speed of the high level forth code, and ProForth has built in facilities for integrating with an eternal node (linux, android, windows, OSX) for long term storage, advanced communications, heavy crunching etc.
Good luck with the Indegogo. I would consider backing a Kickstarter for a product; but usually not indegogo, which is best for for a "charity" type project, as we don't typically don't expect to actually receive anything from indegogo. At Least I haven't.
Also, the project is cool, but its 42 euros for a candle. As Heater and David Bets said, how can I justify this to my budget? Is there some other functionality where it is more than an electric candle? The tech to "blow it out" is great, but its an expensive way to implement a switch. What use justifies all the tech in here?
I sold my flat in Moscow and invested money to this project.
I spent 3 years to make cool product.
I want to make it happen.
Manufacturing of parts for FlameTube is already started.
You will get your devices anyway. But the more devices ordered, the better support I can provide to you.
To let "ordinary" people to buy the product, we have to show growing at start.
That's why I ask Parallax community for help.
Please, ask all of your friends personally to support the campaign on Indiegogo. Share the link of the campaign in social networks. Explain the advantages of FlameTube to everybody. I ask you to be evangelists of FlameTube.
I would like to provide Developer Kits and additional FlameTubes for free to every person, who help me to reach the goals.
To make your referral links, do the following:
1. Create your account on Indiegogo and log in. It's important to be logged in to count your referrers correctly!
2. Open FlameTube campaign. Click "Follow".
3. Make any contribution (at least, order "Digital thank you").
4. Click the button with the chain icon. Place the code to your website.
5. Use buttons "Facebook", "Twitter", "Mail" on the campaign page to share the link. Be creative when write your messages!
6. If you send the link to somebody you personally know, call him/her and explain, why it's important to support the campaign. This will significantly increase the chance.
7. Track your results from time to time. The instruction is here: https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/203660683-How-To-Participate-In-A-Referral-Contest
Depending on amount of contributions (excluding shipping cost), received from your referrers, you will get the following:
1000 euro - I will send you FlameTube Developer Kit for free (FlameTube Set for non-developers).
2000 euro - I will send you FlameTube Developer Kit and FlameTube Set (two FlameTube Sets for non-developers).
3000 euro - I will send you FlameTube Developer Kit and FlameTube Fan Pack (FlameTube Set and FlameTube Fan Pack for non-developers).
I believe that together wi will make it happen. Thank you!
USB 1.0 and 2.0 (3.x is not supported): host and device; supporting storage devices, Bluetooth dongles, serial devices (incl. several modems), HID (keyboard, mouse) ????
So, it is a USB3 connector and the additional connections are "misused" as the 5 multi purpose I/O lines ??
Hm, developer Board?
I would need a USB-Socket, instructions....
Can the case of the FlameTube be opened?
Thanks for your great questions!
1. FlameTube contain a small circuit, compatible to most USB libraries for Prop. For example, you can connect a cheap $1 Bluetooth USB dongle to FlameTube directly to turn FlameTube into a notification point for your smartphone. So, you can connect USB devices directly, using existing code from http://obex.parallax.com OBEX also contain a lot of libs, supporting connection to many non-USB devices.
2. I don't think that they are "misused" because you can use the connector as normal USB port. And OPTIONALLY you can use its pins to connect to non-USB devices.
3. It's not necessary to open the case for FlameTube programming. All you need is a FTDI cable (USB to serial) and a small capacitor. The same about connecting peripherals. There are no unused pins internally. All free pins are connected to the USB connector via protective resistors. Of course, in theory, you can open the case. But you will lose the warranty and will have a risk of breaking plastic parts. If you want to know, what is inside, watch our crowdfunding video, there you can see the PCB enough detailed. If you need more info, just ask.
4. For developers, the instructions, as well as the connection circuitry, will be provided with FlameTube.
Kind regards, Alexey
What about 42 euros for a computer, cool gadget, great interior decoration and multiporpose game console? All in one.
FlameTube Apps discussion is here:
http://forums.parallax.com/discussion/164885/flametube-apps#latest
Please share your ideas!
1. Ah! I never realized that there is Host Stack in Obex.
2. So the D-/D+ pins of the connector are always used for USB-things. So it can be always a USB1/2 device/host.
3. Two of the other 5 pins are for serial connection to the internal bootloader and/or operating-system, where I could load my scripts/programms/send commands... So I have three free pins, that I could use for other things (I2C, SPI, PWM...)?
4. Hm. I want know everything before ;-). Especially if the thing has a "one way" casing.
What Size has the EEprom (32kBytes or 64kBytes) ? If 64kBytes, can I use it for my "program" to save something?
....
I made my own Flame Tube for my latest project, but I call it an "exhaust port".
I'm afraid, I didn't understand.
Get it! https://igg.me/at/flametube
Let Parallax order first 1000 units directly.
Ken, what can you say?
The vid is only 12 seconds long. Plays through to the end here.
Edit: I got it to play by going to YouTube and playing it there. The embedded version stopped 4 seconds into the video.
Ok, now I think I got the picture. There is Reset and the two serial pins are the boatloader pins 30/31 for flashing. So If I know the complete hardware, I could write/use my own firmware/OS.
EEProm size of 64k is good.
I have no special wishes about the casing, but for 89 Euros it should not look too cheap. And I hate it, if I can not open it. Sometimes it's just a loose connection or a bad capacitor why a device is not working, but if you open it, the casing is broken.
The casing and the dock of final version are made of aluminum alloy series 7000 (like Apple Watch Sport) from a solid piece of metal, using Unibody technology. The ring is made of polished stainless steel. The dock is enough heavy. It's not cheap and looks cool and solid, like a part of high-end audio equipment (maybe, a bit better). The surface quality should be similar to the quality of aluminum surfaces of Apple devices. BTW, my gadgets from Apple and high-end tube amplifiers inspired me to create this design. They look great together.
The casing of prototypes, shown on the crowdfunding video, was made of stainless steel by CNC turning and milling, and, also, for some of prototypes, - of aluminum alloy. Also, we used temporary (handmade) version of rings.
But why 89 euro? Right now you can order it for 42 (of course, the quantity is limited).
The first batch for early birds is already running! See the campaign update with the photo!
Early Birds have a chance to get their device before official release.
The earlier you make a contribution, the earlier you receive your FlameTube.
https://igg.me/at/flametube
I think, storing FlameTube apps on a smartphone is an option.
I could make the dock with addition connector for $1 Bluetooth USB dongle. Or provide a power supply with two USB sockets, connected in parallel. Even without it, any electronic hobbyist can make Y-type USB cable to connect the dongle to existing dock together with power supply. I think, it's the fastest and cheapest way to add this functionality.
In this case, users will be able to manage, install and control apps in realtime over-the-air.
All we need is to create a loader and a simple iOS/Android app.
Developers, what can you say?
But how are you reaching the outside world?, Bluetooth?
Most ble-modules allows for programs to run on the same ic, and multiplexing LEDs is something it could do at the same time with no problems.
You need to get the price down to $29.95 with a b.o.m of ~$10, so every part used should be analyzed for cost and how few external parts they need.
1. Currently, we have a Prop-based FlameTube, and it's possible to implement Bluetooth connection using $1 USB dongle. Why not to do that?
2. Yes, I can make $29.95 lamp, based on an ARM SoC (enabled with Wi-Fi and/or Bluetooth) with BOM=$10, but for this price you will get:
- simple plastic casing instead of premium casing+dock, made of aircraft-grade 7000 alloy with unibody technology
- no sensors and interactivity
- cheap version of the tube, without PVD mirror coating
- no grayscale instead of 256-level grayscale (or we have to additionally use a LED matrix driver chip, increasing the cost)
- not so easy and interesting programming
It's simply another kind of product for another kind of target audience - not premium, not for aesthetes, but a cheap wi-fi smart lamp. Why not? Cheap smart lamps are popular now...
Do you think that such a device would be more profitable and more interesting?
With 96LED's per side, need's just 2mA each even if multiplexed for a 12.5% max duty as you want candle effect, not 100Watt bulb equivalent.
Drive columns with a 3-to-8 decoder, a 24mA version should not need mosfets, Plus side: no risk possible ever that a user could enable two columns by mistake this way.
Drive cathode directly with 12mcu pins, for 256level software emulated 12pwm's:
lets say the arm cycles needed are of 1 cycle type, dec->ifz->dir-pin, so lets make it 4-5 cycles or 100ns at 48mhz
*12 *256 = each column will take 0.3 millisecond * 8 = 400 Hz total refresh rate (only 60-100Hz needed for human eye)
You can get two individual messages on both sides at 200Hz, either using more gpio for cathodes or use two 3-to-8 decoder's and alternate its enable pin, or a 4-to-16 decoder.
So I think a $1.50 arm or $4.00 fcc certified ble-module could do it, it's nothing wrong of using a P1, it's just it have a hard time reaching the outside for 2016 technology's.