It should support a WiFi dongle with an OTG cable/adapter in the micro-USB. I wouldn't be surprised if one of the enterprising Wifi makers doesn't repackage one of their WiFi adapter into a micro-USB dongle.
At $5 it does become a very inexpensive (powerful) solution looking for a problem. I'm sure now that they are out in the wild in growing numbers, creative uses will start to appear (once that global shortage conspiracy clears up, that is! )
A robot with a touch screen RPZ sounds like a good way to spend $5 or so!
I had a laugh this weekend, I used to have USB A/B cables all over the place, they slowly migrated to a box as the USB A/mini-B cables took over (lots of those for Propellers!), lately, I've been using more and more boards needing USB A/micro-B cables (Espruino, RasPi, STM32, etc.) so my mini-B cables have slowly evaporated.
I spent a good hour on Saturday looking for a third mini-B cable...the ones I used to have everywhere!
Yes, a world without cables, adapters and dongles would be heaven!!!
I have been wondering about the Pi Zero. With its lack of network capability I don't have much immediate use for it.
But, with the little HDMI touch screen it becomes an embedded controller with a turbo charged GUI. Accelerated 3D graphics and all. Cheaper than an Arduino!
If the USB port worked as a "device" or "gadget" or whatever you call it. Then it would be a very cheap Prop Plug replacement. Which is kind of scary (I' not sure if the gadget driver is working there yet, probably soon.)
Cool! A PropPlug that can actually take source code from the PC and compile it into binary before loading it into the Propeller! :-)
Well, I have just been presenting facts and doubts, calling them unfounded insinualtions is a defensive tactic.
Loopy, I'm not a super-duper RPi fanatic. More pessimistic than average, however even to me it sounds like you have an issue with them.
I don't think its rhetorical shaming, I think its people just calling you out on some of your comments which just seem to be non-factual, the opposite of objective or disclosure-like.
"Raspberry Pi from the beginning has been to expect teachers and schools to fall into line just because it is the cheapest and smallest. But the device initally requires HDMI or conversion to VGA, and another computer for cross-compling. It may actually cost more to deploy because it is the smallest and cheapest."
I'm not sure who/where you got the impression that anyone is supposed to fall into line. We can't even get them to focus on the 3 R's, which is their primary mission.....
1 teacher can format a bunch of flash cards and copy the .bin and give the kids working computers. Just need a cheapo keyboard, mouse and they can plug it into their home tv.
How much simpler and cheaper and easier could someone wish it too be?
"1. There have always been alternatives to the Raspberry Pi in the SoC boards with Linux that offered a more sensible design and possibly a better value even though they were not the smallest nor the cheapest."
Who cares? This isn't meant to be mine or your desktop or laptop, and certainly was never sold as a OLPC type of thing. This was meant to be the cheapest computer possible to fit that market. It just so happens that low cost hits a lot of markets, including the hobbiest.
"Orange Pi seems to currently be very attractive as an alternative, Cubieboard is just my personal alternative that came out a few months after the Raspberry Pi."
Thats neat for $15, if I need something with the extras. Once I have more time I'll have to compare against my Pi2. Zero still beats it for its intended market.
Actual support and hand-holding for teachers and others? Sure, just go to alibaba and.......
"2. Using an educational non-profit approach to brand creation is dubious at best. The US is chock full of non-profit foundations that mostly benefit the salaries staff while claiming a noble mission.... all prefectly legal. But this is a sophisticated effort to create a brand in direct competition with Parallax. So why should I welcome their promotional buzz here without lampooning it. Ardiuno founders did the same and even started out their campaign expressing hopes to put Parallax out of business."
See, this is where you go into the realm of pure subjective speculation, and are rightly called out for it IMHO.
Upton had an idea, and made it come true. I'd bet 500,000 - 1,000,000 kids have been exposed to one, and for many its probably been a positive 'a ha' type of moment when they make the connection between a computer/laptop, their phone, and a mini-pc.
As for Parallax, they are big boys. They've had a decade to see what is going on and address it as they see fit.
I have no problem with the Arduino coming out of the university as a lower cost competitor to Parallax's rather high priced kit. I've never seen or heard of a Parallax kit in any uni I've attended or friends have mentioned. Everything was Pic. I attribute this to Parallax' very high cost. I might not agree with the path they took, however its their company. How much of Parallax income is derived from BS/Prop vs odds and ends on the c-commerce side of things is known only to them.
Its one thing to support Parallax, its another to view anyone who competes with them as some sort of enemy.
"3. Selling 7,000,000 million units has really very little to do with children or education. It has to do with marketing and promotion. And Raspberry Pi seems to have use the Parallax Forums to drive those sales numbers."
ROTFLMAO... really.
This site probably gets several hundred unique new visitors a month. Parallax has had absolutely zero to do with RPi, except for those institutions where professors have tried to lessen the financial burden on their students.
RPi has hit those numbers because they are selling at very, very low 'profit' enough to fund the Foundation, and because they are cheap, cheap cheap enough to entice legions of others outside that market.
"What puts me off is the brand creation.
Many would love to be part of the upper management of an organization such as Raspberry Pi (the non-profit foundation and/or the for-profit trading company), the benefits must be better than being a member of unversity faculty. "
So a successful, educational focused organization which sells computers for price of dinner for 2 at a local restaurant is off-putting,yet a company which sells a uC kit which costs a handful of dollars for $80-100 into that same market somehow requires almost slavish devotion and feality?
Instead of attributing RPi folks with almost fraudulent skimming off the top or grossly over-paying themselves for doing nothing, why not get factual and ask them?
They are a Charitable foundation, so I expect a lot of this is actually discoverable.
"But educators that work in university settings generally accept less material rewards because they feel that are really contributing to society.
Yes it is all perfect legal, and it is good capitalism. But is this really the direction that education should go? I personally don't thing so."
Well, I've met a lot of teachers, and people going into the field. One of the oft cited primary benefits is the summer and holidays breaks off, paid. The benefits are all rather nice too.
The pay kicks in quite nicely once you've been in a couple of years, and the unions sure are solid.
But one of the best is that its almost impossible to get fired.
Heck, NY has a couple of sicko teachers it hasn't been able to fire for years, doing nothing but drawing a salary paid for by taxes confiscated from me.
Yes it is all perfect legal, and it is good capitalism. But is this really the direction that education should go? I personally don't thing so.
RPi seems like a full-time job, and unlike the publicly funded teachers, if they screw-up and don't sell, they don't get paid.
Thats Capitalism too.
EDIT- I agree, this is going nowhere and as much as Parallax doesn't like to be slandered, I don't think they would like their website to be known to be doing so to RPi.
Yes! Learning assembler on it is one of the high value adds that warrant the price Parallax needs to charge.
Ah potatohead, potatohead, potatohead.....
EDIT- I was going to delete this, however I kept reading your thread and confirmed you were in fact talking about the Prop kit and not just A Prop.
I don't think even Ken would try to sell a Prop on any of his .edu tours that way.
The resident Science teacher would have been dragooned into vetting this school's new computer curriculum would simply say, why can't I do that with an Arduino for $20 ($3-4 on eBay)? I can buy 10 of those for one of your kits.
Nowadays, they are going to say, why can't I do that with a Zero for $5? I can kit my entire class out with an actual computer for the price of one of your uC kits. Yeah they can't run a real-time POV thingy with it, but they can light some LED's and read some buttons.
And, in fact, if we go down the path of your kits, we have to actually buy computers get to the point to use your kits!
The Zero at $5 is going to drag the Arduino down to the same or lower price level as a counter.
Parallax in the .edu scene is just going to find it exponentially more difficult to sell their kit as it is now, into that environment.
Parallax really, really news to get on the ball here. Bill has picked up where Parallax has fallen with his RPi-Prop thing. Everyone knows the RPi isn't suited for much in the I/O or Control side of things, Parallax may still have an opportunity if they could design h/w and provide necessary software for a slick fast I/O Manager.
If not, I will not be too surprised to see Microchip or some ARM vendor come out with a cheap I/O Manager solution for the RPis.
I don't think Parallax does have that problem Heater.
If P2 gets done, that carries them a long way into the future. For now, P1 has a lot of time left in it.
Potatohead, not picking on you, I just seem to be up late/early and replying as I read.
(Warning, wall of text ahead)
I have had a few minutes to rethink what I posted above, and Parallax may not actually have a problem per se. However, I think you are quite wrong in assuming the P2 release is going to mean they've struck oil or found a pot of gold.
P2 release should see a minimal uptick in Parallax's cash flow, perhaps even moderate if there is some killer app that comes out.
Why?
Simply put, Parallax currently sells n Prop uC.
P2 is released.
1st Quarter:
P1 sales of n stays the same, yeah!
P2 ? Lots of sales (n2) to Forum, HaD and the like, and the mysterious 'commercial' customers of bulk for testing.
Balance sheet should be improved, pop the champagne corks and company party!
2nd Quarter,
P1 sales down, (n - 10-40%) as people migrate products or interest to P2.
BTW, P1 is on comparatively very inexpensive process arch., which should be yielding high profit for Parallax.
P2 sales are (n2= (n - 10-40%) taken from P1.
BTW, P2 is comparatively more expensive process arch than P1, and has higher cost due to higher die size.
This also leads to higher actual cost compared to P1 assuming same profit margin is kept to.
Balance sheet, assuming same profit margins are kept between P1 & P2, there really doesn't appear to be any significant increase in revenue to/from the Props Streams.
Yes, there could be some killer app/product that the Prop2 can do that sets the world afire and converts legions of tinkerers and industry pro's. If that happens I'll be happy to admit my ignorance.
The problem I see is that even assuming the above, the P2 is going to cost more to produce for at least 2 reasons, and if Parallax maintains its P1 profit margin, that is going to end up having a Prop2 that 10-50% more than the P1.
I know thats nothing for tinkerers doing one-offs, and the commercial low volume-hi priced market.
However after the brouhaha of Q1/2 new shiny wears off, how many people are just going to return to the moderately cheaper P1 because it does the job acceptably and cheaper?
Parallax is doing their best they can, however everyone else keeps delivering more power, more cores for lower price, not more.
If a P2 is up in the $12+ market, they would seem to be pricing themselves out of the market, both educational and industrial. OK, before everyone jumps on me, not the low volume/high priced market.
But thats double edged as well, as new potentials are going to see the price tag and then look at similarly priced ARM's even more, which may/may not be good for getting new customers.
Long story short, its hard on everyone, and particularly for a small outfit like Parallax.
As a more expensive product, there is the potential for P2 to take even longer to get its ROI back.
Not trying to be a worry wort, however I wish a lot of people would think about this before hitting up Ken and Chip about P3 this or that. Maybe $3-4M can be written off as the cost of doing business/learning a few things, and P3 development will start a year or two after the P2. Don't know, maybe walnuts are supporting Parallax.
As we get closer to P2, I think it would be wise for Parallax to get a Skunkworks project going now, and get a forum going to start incubating some of these killer ideas who's fruition might help them sell or generate some positive PR for the new Prop.
Well, improving on the SD card might be workable too. Solder it in, or something robust. From there, Linux can be very seriously stripped down. Might get few second boot to ready times doing that.
Personally, unless it was actually for industrial/commercial use, SD should be fine.
Eventhen, if one were worried isn't there some sort of non-corroding interface material one could put on the contacts?
An airplane or something, ok no SD embedded perhaps.
Anything else thats not mission critical in a dusty/harsh environment? SD.
Here's what I know: I can take somebody, who knows nearly nothing, and put them on a P1 and get them to doing interesting things, in assembly language no less, and do so quickly and easily. They don't have to know too much to get going, and once they do, much of the P1 and how it works builds easily. And I'm talking SPIN+PASM here. Easiest I've ever seen it, and I love everything about that.
I can take that same somebody and put them on other devices, and I can do the same thing, but not so quickly and not so easily. The building seems to happen reasonably, in both scenarios, though the kind and number of questions I get vary considerably and there is often more to include in a given scenario too. The Zero will fall easily into this bucket. It's cheap, but you are gonna have to work for it some to make it do stuff.
On a P1, lots of things are stupid easy. And that's really where the value is. Get that Zero to receive radio with a short program and a few bits stuffed into a breadboard and get back to me. Just one of many examples.
What is worth what?
A lot of the market will focus on cost.
Happened back in the 80's too. Same dynamics.
Some schools sprung for the nice, Apple 2 computers. Others went cheap and got other computers.
Those Apples were a very fine educational offering, and they cost a considerable amount more, but the education path, as I described above, was very, very similar. As were the results.
What was worth what? Nothing has really changed here.
At any given time, there are people who will evaluate that differently. The question isn't one of lowest cost, but of best overall value. Always is. Always will be. And what I mean by that is people value things differently. Someone, who values a P1 right now isn't likely to change that value perception much by the arrival of the Zero. That thing is still a computer, still has an OS, still requires a lot of understanding to program at a lower or real time level, etc...
The P1 is a microcontroller, and it's lean, and rather easy to program at a low / real time level.
This is more than specs / dollar. Always will be too.
I hear the same sorts of points made in favor of other things, and it plays out the same way. You won't find, say a BMW driver crowing about how cheap the car is, same goes for a ton of things. Apple understands this quite well, and by showing value, happens to be the highest capitalized company in the world. They didn't do it racing to the bottom.
Now, that doesn't translate directly here. And your points have a lot of merit. Parallax is clearly not Apple. However, Parallax is offering a value proposition that is well differentiated in the market, and they back it with awesome service and support. That's gonna be worth it to some people over getting a 10 pack of Zeros to teach the kids with.
People get what they pay for, and there are trade-offs inherent in all of that. People looking for good value are going to give Parallax consideration because that is what Parallax does. Good value is not always cheapest, or cheap, and that's just how it is.
Back to that question, what is worth what?
I run into the odd thing I need to do here and there. I can do that on a P1 easy peasy. Most of the time. When I can't, it's either a task with requirements that exceed the scope of P1, or something I've got to learn, etc... So that gets done on something that makes sense, or I go and learn something. If I am learning something, a P1 really doesn't get in my way of doing that the same way many other things do. Worth it. But that's me.
I'll totally pay for easy peasy. Every single time. Why? Because I can get it done and move on, and that's worth a lot. All it takes is a couple hours savings to very easily justify the cost. No brainer. I see people flogging the Smile out of some cheap thing they got all the time. I really don't prefer doing that. I'll get the more expensive thing, get something done, and move on to other things. Sure, I can go dumpster dive and get a lot of stuff done that way ultra cheap too. Why bother?
Plenty of folks out there thinking that way. Enough to matter.
I know people who will pay a LOT of money for these simple, programmable servos out there. They have a little MCU on them, and they offer up some simple options. Connect the sensor, specify the rate, etc... I was kind of shocked at how much the product is compared to a similar thing done with a basic driver board and stand alone servo. I'm quite sure many here could get it done with their MCU of choice + a comparable servo for half.
Why do these people pay?
Because they want to do something and they don't really want / need to go and learn a whole bunch of other things just to do the thing they want / need to do. The company who sells those things knows that and makes damn sure it's dead simple. They can wire it up, hook up a pot, sensor, etc... and get whatever it is done. Next. Their focus is that thing getting done, not specializing in servos. They pay the servo people to do that.
The value of things isn't always so big business / big market cut 'n dried.
Call it cheerleading if you want to.
I get the same thing said when I have a discussion about an Apple computer too. Not the old ones, new Mac computers. I know companies who have outfitted their entire product development staff with Mac computers. That's a 2-3X cost over Dell and friends. Why do they do it?
Because they got what they paid for, and some companies offer that combination of things and others don't offer those things. Priced accordingly. Put that out there among your average computer / tech geek, and probably 8 of 10 will complain about the cost, blah, blah, blah... A bunch of those are running linux on who knows what too.
Awesome!
But that's just not for everyone. Same with the Propeller, and for similar reasons.
You know, there was a time, 10 years ago, when I would pour a week into making some cheap thing go, and often it was Linux. Damn cool stuff. But then I realized, I have other stuff to do, and the time I spend doing that is time I don't spend doing that other stuff I want to do. Others vary in this. And that's fine, but it speaks to where value is and what is worth what too. Those guys who bought all Mac computers? They definitely have other stuff to do, and they want to use a computer. They don't want to know too much about that computer, because doing that isn't how they make the money, change the world, etc...
And just so you know, I've been out there a long, long time, helping to sell, or directly selling value and I'm very good at it. And that often means I do the full boat, training, support, implementation, whatever the heck it takes for them to get whatever they are paying to get done. Don't care, other than they really do need to get it done. Usually, they want to get it done lean too. They want to know what they need to know, but no more than they have to, because how they make their money is the focus, not some tech or other they need to use to make that money. Heck, just understanding that, and how it matters to them is worth a premium. The alternative is, "here, use this cookie cutter, cheap o thing, and oh yeah. You work this way now. Sorry." That can be terribly expensive! (which is why higher end products actually continue to exist!)
I don't work with low value, read cheap more often than not, stuff generally. Why? Because where the value is low, so are the margins, expectations, and everything else associated with whatever it is. Or it takes more of my time. And that's just me. Others will vary. But I can tell you, those that see that kind of value pay the very best rates, consistently, time and time again, and what do they get?
Red carpet, "no failure option" service. Worth it, unless it isn't, and if it isn't, there is a whole market out there racing to the bottom every single day, ready to serve it up cheap as they can. Often, some of the best clients are those who failed hard on the cheap gig too.
And make no mistake, smaller niches here for sure. But they pay well and people are loyal. So it comes down to doing the work for a lot or a little and why do the work for a little, or worse, do the work you would do for a lot, but for a little. Ugh...
1. Place RPi on table
2 Connect familiar USB power, USB keyboard/mouse, USB wifi
3 Plug it into their home tv
4 Turn it on, and have them on a graphical desktop open to an IDE/tutorial on programming BASIC, Python, C, or whatever.
Time 4-5 minutes, and for our purposes I can walk out of the room and let that someone learn and do while I go home.
You can take a Prop kit and do likewise.
I will let you enumerate the steps, time involved.
And, before you leave don't forget to explain how to also do whatever needs to be done on THEIR computer because I doubt you are leaving your laptop. Oh wait, they don't have one......
Of course this points out almost the folly of conflating the two products, and considering them at odds with each other.
RPi is for 'learning computers'
Prop is for learning electronics
You CAN use the Prop to 'learn computers', however why anyone would do that with the Prop is beyond me.
Not only is it the wrong tool for the wrong job, that $50-100 kit requires another $300+ dollar actual computer before it can even be used.
Its something that is really a stretch, and once these Zeros are out in number I think the .edu's are going to start picking up on them en masse.
In the coming months, trying to sell the P1/P2 as a Learning Computer/environment is just going to be a waste of time and money.
Be honest here, if your Aunt asked you to help your nephew 'learn computers', would you actually push her to get a Prop kit, and a $$laptop/pc, and a prop plug, etc over a simple Zero or RPi?
Here's what I know: I can take somebody, who knows nearly nothing, and put them on a P1 and get them to doing interesting things, in assembly language no less, and do so quickly and easily. They don't have to know too much to get going, and once they do, much of the P1 and how it works builds easily. And I'm talking SPIN+PASM here.
I can take that same somebody and put them on other devices, and I can do the same thing, but not so quickly and not so easily. The building seems to happen reasonably, in both scenarios, though the kind and number of questions I get vary considerably and there is often more to include in a given scenario too. The Zero will fall easily into this bucket. It's cheap, but you are gonna have to work for it some to make it do stuff.
Be honest here, if your Aunt asked you to help your nephew 'learn computers', would you actually push her to get a Prop kit, and a $$laptop/pc, and a prop plug, etc over a simple Zero or RPi?
Maybe not but I might suggest a RaspberryPi with a Propeller Hat with an SD card setup with SimpleIDE. That way you have the best of both worlds with only a little added cost.
Get back to me when you can take that Pi and listen to the radio on it, or make a logic analyzer, or get to understand real time, basic things with it.
I'm not missing the point at all.
What you put out there is a good value for some people, and it's not such a good value for other people. These are not the same people!
And you said it below: Electronics vs Computers.
Did it ever strike you that those are not the same thing? I'm sure it did. Know why I am here?
I know a ton about computers. Banged around on it all, from little ones, 8 bitters to big iron NUMA things, with gobs of RAM, DISK, CPU, etc... UNIX, Windows, Mac, FLEX, hell even Xenix (and that was terrible), and I can't even hardly remember what else... I've done industrial computers, DOS, dedicated things, Enterprise computers, PLM, MRP, etc... Personal computers, gaming computers, computers for professionals, computers for engineers, computers for people who don't like computers computers.
But if you want to learn about how to connect those computers to the outside world, circuits, control things, etc... a Pi doesn't have the same value. A Pi is the cheapo computer, computer. Doesn't even have a case, so it's the "be careful with it computer", and it's definitely not a mainstream computer, so it's a...
As a cheap computer to learn about computers? Heck yeah! And I think the Pi is great. I got one, just so I could set it up as a little dedicated, as in "I'm not gonna mess with this for a long time" type computer. I like having one of those I can count on to do specific things, or run specific programs and not be on the update treadmill every single month.
I think the Zero is going to be the, "I'll just stuff a computer in here, computer" and that's great! The more the merrier. Get a 10 pack and have at it!
Frankly, the two cases mesh well together.
Let's get 'em a Pi, and make sure it talks to their Prop, give them a kit, some goodies and set them loose! Perfectly, perfect.
So in the end, none of this really impacts Parallax much at all does it?
As for your cost argument... I know plenty of people who don't mind spending a little money to learn. Drop $100 on something that you can learn a lot on, that is high value entertainment, or that can get that project moving along nicely?
No brainer. Happens all the time. I haven't bought a game in quite some time, but I got a lot of nice electronics stuff to play with now. And I can put that to real world, on the job use too. Sweet! Easy money, high value.
That new mind numbing video game costs $60, and it's good for what, a week tops? $100 on something that a person can put to use, learn on, benefit from is on par cost and value wise.
My son came home with a $160 maybe $180 laptop, running Windows 10. That thing is pretty great, and it would work fine as that computer to work with a Propeller, or do learning on in general. Too much? Yeah, get a Pi. This isn't a big deal. Not really.
Prop, Plug, if you are breadboarding, some nice board, if you are not. Battery, if you want.
Some computer. Could be that Pi and home TV, and I recommend exactly that too. Cheap, fun, useful.
Spend an hour setting the goodies up.
From there, do stuff. It's not hard.
When I got my Prop, I connected a little battery, plugged the cable into my computer, went to a TV, fired up the little demo programs and was doing stuff in SPIN and PASM in about a day. Easy. In fact, it was so darn easy that it settled some things. I was back into electronics now. Fun times. I flirted with this stuff a few times, but it was complicated and not so much fun. The prop? Fun. No Joke.
Purged a lot of those "computers that I kept around for no good reason now, computers" and went at it. Extra room bunker, running god knows what, gone. Right along with probably a $100 power bill to run all of those damn computers.
Could buy a spiffy kit each month!
On business travel, instead of ssh into my bunker to do a bunch of stuff, I pulled the Prop out, made some circuits, used the hotel TV to display, if I was wanting to do that, and it all rolled up into my backpack for later too. What I learned is little, tiny computers are really fun and useful computers. Sort of like 8 bit computers, only capable of doing a lot more, and that's damn cool man.
Now, for the peeps who didn't know much, that took a little bit more, but not too much more. Then they were off and doing stuff, reading that TV remote to make a servo move, playing games, pushing buttons to make things happen, etc...
The focus here is different. And that's why Parallax does not have a huge problem brewing right now.
Yeah, it's crazy. Some people want the guided tour, or well presented instructions, etc... support? Others? They are basically, "gimme the stuff" and they go off and do their thing.
But, but...the Pi is now a cheaper than a Prop Plug! The Prop Hat is cheaper than any Parallax board.
Things of gotten really upside down here!
Meh..I started with just DIP Prop chip two transistors and some resistors. Soon got the tv demo up. Magic. Pointless but magic.
Parallax boards are made in the USA. That is one reason they are more expensive. Personally, I'd rather pay a little extra for a board made here rather than in China.
Edit: Hmmm.... I see the Pimoroni boards are manufactured in the UK, not in China.
Feeds the peeps, educates the kids, builds the infrastructure, etc...
Sometimes I can't, and that sucks. But when I can, I do. And the company I'm managing right now is all made in the USA. Hits home. All those people, their lives, kids, etc...
That's another what is worth what?
If getting it the very cheapest is always the priority, at some point, when is it YOU who ends up not making so much, and when it is you not making so much, how cheap is that cheap stuff really then?
And this should apply to anyone. Value your homeland. Nobody else will, and that's no joke.
Part of the problem may be that the Propeller chip itself is expensive compared with an AVR or the Broadcom chip on the Pi. Then you need to add an FTDI chip that isn't needed by the other solutions and an EEPROM.
The Pi boards are pretty sophisticated, many layers, tiny BGA devices, Pacakage on Package technology. All of that would be quite expensive in low volumes I imagine.
But it's a trick. The Pi boards are made in Wales in a factory belonging to Sony. It was previously used to make Sony TVs. That factory has all the production line technology to do this at scale.
The Pi boards are pretty sophisticated, many layers, tiny BGA devices, Pacakage on Package technology. All of that would be quite expensive in low volumes I imagine.
But it's a trick. The Pi boards are made in Wales in a factory belonging to Sony. It was previously used to make Sony TVs. That factory has all the production line technology to do this at scale.
I wonder what the cost of living is in Wales compared with England or the Sacramento area of California. Also, if they're using a repurposed Sony factory, their production may be largely automated and not using much hand labor.
Edit: Another point is that they only make boards. Parallax makes chips as well. I suspect a lot of money gets sunk into P2 development. The RaspberryPi people just buy their chips from Broadcom.
The factory where the Raspberry Pi is made is now called the Sony UK Technology Centre (Sony UK TEC) and is located in a small town about 15 miles from Cardiff. As far as I can find, it has never been shut down and is still owned and operated by Sony. However, there was a nearby, but separate, Sony facility that made CRT based TVs which was closed around 2005/2006.
Sony makes broadcast quality HD video cameras there, but can also do contract manufacturing. It seems like the Raspberry Pi has turned into one of their bigger contracts. I read that they had about 300 employees there in 2012, and the Pi production was originally done by 22 operators. Later, in early 2015, it was reported that they would add 30 jobs, to an existing 70 already dedicated to the Pi, in order to produce the Pi 2 computer.
Comments
At $5 it does become a very inexpensive (powerful) solution looking for a problem. I'm sure now that they are out in the wild in growing numbers, creative uses will start to appear (once that global shortage conspiracy clears up, that is!
A robot with a touch screen RPZ sounds like a good way to spend $5 or so!
That is why we use WIFI dongles. No cables no fuss.
But with the Pi Zero none of my WIFI dongles works with out an adapter. Arghhh!!
After 50 years of building computers we still have to change all our cables every other year. It's enough to drive one to drink.
I had a laugh this weekend, I used to have USB A/B cables all over the place, they slowly migrated to a box as the USB A/mini-B cables took over (lots of those for Propellers!), lately, I've been using more and more boards needing USB A/micro-B cables (Espruino, RasPi, STM32, etc.) so my mini-B cables have slowly evaporated.
I spent a good hour on Saturday looking for a third mini-B cable...the ones I used to have everywhere!
Yes, a world without cables, adapters and dongles would be heaven!!!
Loopy, I'm not a super-duper RPi fanatic. More pessimistic than average, however even to me it sounds like you have an issue with them.
I don't think its rhetorical shaming, I think its people just calling you out on some of your comments which just seem to be non-factual, the opposite of objective or disclosure-like.
I'm not sure who/where you got the impression that anyone is supposed to fall into line. We can't even get them to focus on the 3 R's, which is their primary mission.....
1 teacher can format a bunch of flash cards and copy the .bin and give the kids working computers. Just need a cheapo keyboard, mouse and they can plug it into their home tv.
How much simpler and cheaper and easier could someone wish it too be?
Who cares? This isn't meant to be mine or your desktop or laptop, and certainly was never sold as a OLPC type of thing. This was meant to be the cheapest computer possible to fit that market. It just so happens that low cost hits a lot of markets, including the hobbiest.
Thats neat for $15, if I need something with the extras. Once I have more time I'll have to compare against my Pi2. Zero still beats it for its intended market.
Actual support and hand-holding for teachers and others? Sure, just go to alibaba and.......
See, this is where you go into the realm of pure subjective speculation, and are rightly called out for it IMHO.
Upton had an idea, and made it come true. I'd bet 500,000 - 1,000,000 kids have been exposed to one, and for many its probably been a positive 'a ha' type of moment when they make the connection between a computer/laptop, their phone, and a mini-pc.
As for Parallax, they are big boys. They've had a decade to see what is going on and address it as they see fit.
I have no problem with the Arduino coming out of the university as a lower cost competitor to Parallax's rather high priced kit. I've never seen or heard of a Parallax kit in any uni I've attended or friends have mentioned. Everything was Pic. I attribute this to Parallax' very high cost. I might not agree with the path they took, however its their company. How much of Parallax income is derived from BS/Prop vs odds and ends on the c-commerce side of things is known only to them.
Its one thing to support Parallax, its another to view anyone who competes with them as some sort of enemy.
ROTFLMAO... really.
This site probably gets several hundred unique new visitors a month. Parallax has had absolutely zero to do with RPi, except for those institutions where professors have tried to lessen the financial burden on their students.
RPi has hit those numbers because they are selling at very, very low 'profit' enough to fund the Foundation, and because they are cheap, cheap cheap enough to entice legions of others outside that market.
So a successful, educational focused organization which sells computers for price of dinner for 2 at a local restaurant is off-putting,yet a company which sells a uC kit which costs a handful of dollars for $80-100 into that same market somehow requires almost slavish devotion and feality?
Instead of attributing RPi folks with almost fraudulent skimming off the top or grossly over-paying themselves for doing nothing, why not get factual and ask them?
They are a Charitable foundation, so I expect a lot of this is actually discoverable.
Well, I've met a lot of teachers, and people going into the field. One of the oft cited primary benefits is the summer and holidays breaks off, paid. The benefits are all rather nice too.
The pay kicks in quite nicely once you've been in a couple of years, and the unions sure are solid.
But one of the best is that its almost impossible to get fired.
Heck, NY has a couple of sicko teachers it hasn't been able to fire for years, doing nothing but drawing a salary paid for by taxes confiscated from me.
Yes it is all perfect legal, and it is good capitalism. But is this really the direction that education should go? I personally don't thing so.
RPi seems like a full-time job, and unlike the publicly funded teachers, if they screw-up and don't sell, they don't get paid.
Thats Capitalism too.
EDIT- I agree, this is going nowhere and as much as Parallax doesn't like to be slandered, I don't think they would like their website to be known to be doing so to RPi.
Ah potatohead, potatohead, potatohead.....
EDIT- I was going to delete this, however I kept reading your thread and confirmed you were in fact talking about the Prop kit and not just A Prop.
I don't think even Ken would try to sell a Prop on any of his .edu tours that way.
The resident Science teacher would have been dragooned into vetting this school's new computer curriculum would simply say, why can't I do that with an Arduino for $20 ($3-4 on eBay)? I can buy 10 of those for one of your kits.
Nowadays, they are going to say, why can't I do that with a Zero for $5? I can kit my entire class out with an actual computer for the price of one of your uC kits. Yeah they can't run a real-time POV thingy with it, but they can light some LED's and read some buttons.
And, in fact, if we go down the path of your kits, we have to actually buy computers get to the point to use your kits!
The Zero at $5 is going to drag the Arduino down to the same or lower price level as a counter.
Parallax in the .edu scene is just going to find it exponentially more difficult to sell their kit as it is now, into that environment.
Parallax really, really news to get on the ball here. Bill has picked up where Parallax has fallen with his RPi-Prop thing. Everyone knows the RPi isn't suited for much in the I/O or Control side of things, Parallax may still have an opportunity if they could design h/w and provide necessary software for a slick fast I/O Manager.
If not, I will not be too surprised to see Microchip or some ARM vendor come out with a cheap I/O Manager solution for the RPis.
But every team needs a cheerleader right?
But many will find lots of uses because of this great price point. How many millions of these will they sell???
Potatohead, not picking on you, I just seem to be up late/early and replying as I read.
(Warning, wall of text ahead)
I have had a few minutes to rethink what I posted above, and Parallax may not actually have a problem per se. However, I think you are quite wrong in assuming the P2 release is going to mean they've struck oil or found a pot of gold.
P2 release should see a minimal uptick in Parallax's cash flow, perhaps even moderate if there is some killer app that comes out.
Why?
Simply put, Parallax currently sells n Prop uC.
P2 is released.
1st Quarter:
P1 sales of n stays the same, yeah!
P2 ? Lots of sales (n2) to Forum, HaD and the like, and the mysterious 'commercial' customers of bulk for testing.
Balance sheet should be improved, pop the champagne corks and company party!
2nd Quarter,
P1 sales down, (n - 10-40%) as people migrate products or interest to P2.
BTW, P1 is on comparatively very inexpensive process arch., which should be yielding high profit for Parallax.
P2 sales are (n2= (n - 10-40%) taken from P1.
BTW, P2 is comparatively more expensive process arch than P1, and has higher cost due to higher die size.
This also leads to higher actual cost compared to P1 assuming same profit margin is kept to.
Balance sheet, assuming same profit margins are kept between P1 & P2, there really doesn't appear to be any significant increase in revenue to/from the Props Streams.
Yes, there could be some killer app/product that the Prop2 can do that sets the world afire and converts legions of tinkerers and industry pro's. If that happens I'll be happy to admit my ignorance.
The problem I see is that even assuming the above, the P2 is going to cost more to produce for at least 2 reasons, and if Parallax maintains its P1 profit margin, that is going to end up having a Prop2 that 10-50% more than the P1.
I know thats nothing for tinkerers doing one-offs, and the commercial low volume-hi priced market.
However after the brouhaha of Q1/2 new shiny wears off, how many people are just going to return to the moderately cheaper P1 because it does the job acceptably and cheaper?
Parallax is doing their best they can, however everyone else keeps delivering more power, more cores for lower price, not more.
If a P2 is up in the $12+ market, they would seem to be pricing themselves out of the market, both educational and industrial. OK, before everyone jumps on me, not the low volume/high priced market.
But thats double edged as well, as new potentials are going to see the price tag and then look at similarly priced ARM's even more, which may/may not be good for getting new customers.
Long story short, its hard on everyone, and particularly for a small outfit like Parallax.
As a more expensive product, there is the potential for P2 to take even longer to get its ROI back.
Not trying to be a worry wort, however I wish a lot of people would think about this before hitting up Ken and Chip about P3 this or that. Maybe $3-4M can be written off as the cost of doing business/learning a few things, and P3 development will start a year or two after the P2. Don't know, maybe walnuts are supporting Parallax.
As we get closer to P2, I think it would be wise for Parallax to get a Skunkworks project going now, and get a forum going to start incubating some of these killer ideas who's fruition might help them sell or generate some positive PR for the new Prop.
Just my $0.02.
TinyCore Linux
12MB
OS Loaded to RAM
http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=tinycore
1Gb SPI Flash SO-16 $11
http://www.mouser.com/Semiconductors/Memory/Flash-Memory/_/N-488w1?P=1z0y176Z1z0w127&Ns=Pricing|0
Personally, unless it was actually for industrial/commercial use, SD should be fine.
Eventhen, if one were worried isn't there some sort of non-corroding interface material one could put on the contacts?
An airplane or something, ok no SD embedded perhaps.
Anything else thats not mission critical in a dusty/harsh environment? SD.
Here's what I know: I can take somebody, who knows nearly nothing, and put them on a P1 and get them to doing interesting things, in assembly language no less, and do so quickly and easily. They don't have to know too much to get going, and once they do, much of the P1 and how it works builds easily. And I'm talking SPIN+PASM here. Easiest I've ever seen it, and I love everything about that.
I can take that same somebody and put them on other devices, and I can do the same thing, but not so quickly and not so easily. The building seems to happen reasonably, in both scenarios, though the kind and number of questions I get vary considerably and there is often more to include in a given scenario too. The Zero will fall easily into this bucket. It's cheap, but you are gonna have to work for it some to make it do stuff.
On a P1, lots of things are stupid easy. And that's really where the value is. Get that Zero to receive radio with a short program and a few bits stuffed into a breadboard and get back to me. Just one of many examples.
What is worth what?
A lot of the market will focus on cost.
Happened back in the 80's too. Same dynamics.
Some schools sprung for the nice, Apple 2 computers. Others went cheap and got other computers.
Those Apples were a very fine educational offering, and they cost a considerable amount more, but the education path, as I described above, was very, very similar. As were the results.
What was worth what? Nothing has really changed here.
At any given time, there are people who will evaluate that differently. The question isn't one of lowest cost, but of best overall value. Always is. Always will be. And what I mean by that is people value things differently. Someone, who values a P1 right now isn't likely to change that value perception much by the arrival of the Zero. That thing is still a computer, still has an OS, still requires a lot of understanding to program at a lower or real time level, etc...
The P1 is a microcontroller, and it's lean, and rather easy to program at a low / real time level.
This is more than specs / dollar. Always will be too.
I hear the same sorts of points made in favor of other things, and it plays out the same way. You won't find, say a BMW driver crowing about how cheap the car is, same goes for a ton of things. Apple understands this quite well, and by showing value, happens to be the highest capitalized company in the world. They didn't do it racing to the bottom.
Now, that doesn't translate directly here. And your points have a lot of merit. Parallax is clearly not Apple. However, Parallax is offering a value proposition that is well differentiated in the market, and they back it with awesome service and support. That's gonna be worth it to some people over getting a 10 pack of Zeros to teach the kids with.
People get what they pay for, and there are trade-offs inherent in all of that. People looking for good value are going to give Parallax consideration because that is what Parallax does. Good value is not always cheapest, or cheap, and that's just how it is.
Back to that question, what is worth what?
I run into the odd thing I need to do here and there. I can do that on a P1 easy peasy. Most of the time. When I can't, it's either a task with requirements that exceed the scope of P1, or something I've got to learn, etc... So that gets done on something that makes sense, or I go and learn something. If I am learning something, a P1 really doesn't get in my way of doing that the same way many other things do. Worth it. But that's me.
I'll totally pay for easy peasy. Every single time. Why? Because I can get it done and move on, and that's worth a lot. All it takes is a couple hours savings to very easily justify the cost. No brainer. I see people flogging the Smile out of some cheap thing they got all the time. I really don't prefer doing that. I'll get the more expensive thing, get something done, and move on to other things. Sure, I can go dumpster dive and get a lot of stuff done that way ultra cheap too. Why bother?
Plenty of folks out there thinking that way. Enough to matter.
I know people who will pay a LOT of money for these simple, programmable servos out there. They have a little MCU on them, and they offer up some simple options. Connect the sensor, specify the rate, etc... I was kind of shocked at how much the product is compared to a similar thing done with a basic driver board and stand alone servo. I'm quite sure many here could get it done with their MCU of choice + a comparable servo for half.
Why do these people pay?
Because they want to do something and they don't really want / need to go and learn a whole bunch of other things just to do the thing they want / need to do. The company who sells those things knows that and makes damn sure it's dead simple. They can wire it up, hook up a pot, sensor, etc... and get whatever it is done. Next. Their focus is that thing getting done, not specializing in servos. They pay the servo people to do that.
The value of things isn't always so big business / big market cut 'n dried.
Call it cheerleading if you want to.
I get the same thing said when I have a discussion about an Apple computer too. Not the old ones, new Mac computers. I know companies who have outfitted their entire product development staff with Mac computers. That's a 2-3X cost over Dell and friends. Why do they do it?
Because they got what they paid for, and some companies offer that combination of things and others don't offer those things. Priced accordingly. Put that out there among your average computer / tech geek, and probably 8 of 10 will complain about the cost, blah, blah, blah... A bunch of those are running linux on who knows what too.
Awesome!
But that's just not for everyone. Same with the Propeller, and for similar reasons.
You know, there was a time, 10 years ago, when I would pour a week into making some cheap thing go, and often it was Linux. Damn cool stuff. But then I realized, I have other stuff to do, and the time I spend doing that is time I don't spend doing that other stuff I want to do. Others vary in this. And that's fine, but it speaks to where value is and what is worth what too. Those guys who bought all Mac computers? They definitely have other stuff to do, and they want to use a computer. They don't want to know too much about that computer, because doing that isn't how they make the money, change the world, etc...
And just so you know, I've been out there a long, long time, helping to sell, or directly selling value and I'm very good at it. And that often means I do the full boat, training, support, implementation, whatever the heck it takes for them to get whatever they are paying to get done. Don't care, other than they really do need to get it done. Usually, they want to get it done lean too. They want to know what they need to know, but no more than they have to, because how they make their money is the focus, not some tech or other they need to use to make that money. Heck, just understanding that, and how it matters to them is worth a premium. The alternative is, "here, use this cookie cutter, cheap o thing, and oh yeah. You work this way now. Sorry." That can be terribly expensive! (which is why higher end products actually continue to exist!)
I don't work with low value, read cheap more often than not, stuff generally. Why? Because where the value is low, so are the margins, expectations, and everything else associated with whatever it is. Or it takes more of my time. And that's just me. Others will vary. But I can tell you, those that see that kind of value pay the very best rates, consistently, time and time again, and what do they get?
Red carpet, "no failure option" service. Worth it, unless it isn't, and if it isn't, there is a whole market out there racing to the bottom every single day, ready to serve it up cheap as they can. Often, some of the best clients are those who failed hard on the cheap gig too.
And make no mistake, smaller niches here for sure. But they pay well and people are loyal. So it comes down to doing the work for a lot or a little and why do the work for a little, or worse, do the work you would do for a lot, but for a little. Ugh...
Sue me.
Cheers buddy, it's all good and I mean that!
(goes back to work on P2 driver stuff)
But, you are missing the entire point.
I can take a someone and:
1. Place RPi on table
2 Connect familiar USB power, USB keyboard/mouse, USB wifi
3 Plug it into their home tv
4 Turn it on, and have them on a graphical desktop open to an IDE/tutorial on programming BASIC, Python, C, or whatever.
Time 4-5 minutes, and for our purposes I can walk out of the room and let that someone learn and do while I go home.
You can take a Prop kit and do likewise.
I will let you enumerate the steps, time involved.
And, before you leave don't forget to explain how to also do whatever needs to be done on THEIR computer because I doubt you are leaving your laptop. Oh wait, they don't have one......
Of course this points out almost the folly of conflating the two products, and considering them at odds with each other.
RPi is for 'learning computers'
Prop is for learning electronics
You CAN use the Prop to 'learn computers', however why anyone would do that with the Prop is beyond me.
Not only is it the wrong tool for the wrong job, that $50-100 kit requires another $300+ dollar actual computer before it can even be used.
Its something that is really a stretch, and once these Zeros are out in number I think the .edu's are going to start picking up on them en masse.
In the coming months, trying to sell the P1/P2 as a Learning Computer/environment is just going to be a waste of time and money.
Be honest here, if your Aunt asked you to help your nephew 'learn computers', would you actually push her to get a Prop kit, and a $$laptop/pc, and a prop plug, etc over a simple Zero or RPi?
I'm not missing the point at all.
What you put out there is a good value for some people, and it's not such a good value for other people. These are not the same people!
And you said it below: Electronics vs Computers.
Did it ever strike you that those are not the same thing? I'm sure it did. Know why I am here?
Electronics. Displays, small automations, sensors, projects, fun, basic stuff. Useful stuff too.
I know a ton about computers. Banged around on it all, from little ones, 8 bitters to big iron NUMA things, with gobs of RAM, DISK, CPU, etc... UNIX, Windows, Mac, FLEX, hell even Xenix (and that was terrible), and I can't even hardly remember what else... I've done industrial computers, DOS, dedicated things, Enterprise computers, PLM, MRP, etc... Personal computers, gaming computers, computers for professionals, computers for engineers, computers for people who don't like computers computers.
But if you want to learn about how to connect those computers to the outside world, circuits, control things, etc... a Pi doesn't have the same value. A Pi is the cheapo computer, computer. Doesn't even have a case, so it's the "be careful with it computer", and it's definitely not a mainstream computer, so it's a...
As a cheap computer to learn about computers? Heck yeah! And I think the Pi is great. I got one, just so I could set it up as a little dedicated, as in "I'm not gonna mess with this for a long time" type computer. I like having one of those I can count on to do specific things, or run specific programs and not be on the update treadmill every single month.
I think the Zero is going to be the, "I'll just stuff a computer in here, computer" and that's great! The more the merrier. Get a 10 pack and have at it!
Frankly, the two cases mesh well together.
Let's get 'em a Pi, and make sure it talks to their Prop, give them a kit, some goodies and set them loose! Perfectly, perfect.
So in the end, none of this really impacts Parallax much at all does it?
As for your cost argument... I know plenty of people who don't mind spending a little money to learn. Drop $100 on something that you can learn a lot on, that is high value entertainment, or that can get that project moving along nicely?
No brainer. Happens all the time. I haven't bought a game in quite some time, but I got a lot of nice electronics stuff to play with now. And I can put that to real world, on the job use too. Sweet! Easy money, high value.
That new mind numbing video game costs $60, and it's good for what, a week tops? $100 on something that a person can put to use, learn on, benefit from is on par cost and value wise.
My son came home with a $160 maybe $180 laptop, running Windows 10. That thing is pretty great, and it would work fine as that computer to work with a Propeller, or do learning on in general. Too much? Yeah, get a Pi. This isn't a big deal. Not really.
Not to mention that a Propeller Hat board for the Pi is the cheapest Propeller board you can get.
I sense some kind of synergy here. (Oh God, did I just say "synergy" with a straight face?)
Prop, Plug, if you are breadboarding, some nice board, if you are not. Battery, if you want.
Some computer. Could be that Pi and home TV, and I recommend exactly that too. Cheap, fun, useful.
Spend an hour setting the goodies up.
From there, do stuff. It's not hard.
When I got my Prop, I connected a little battery, plugged the cable into my computer, went to a TV, fired up the little demo programs and was doing stuff in SPIN and PASM in about a day. Easy. In fact, it was so darn easy that it settled some things. I was back into electronics now. Fun times. I flirted with this stuff a few times, but it was complicated and not so much fun. The prop? Fun. No Joke.
Purged a lot of those "computers that I kept around for no good reason now, computers" and went at it. Extra room bunker, running god knows what, gone. Right along with probably a $100 power bill to run all of those damn computers.
Could buy a spiffy kit each month!
On business travel, instead of ssh into my bunker to do a bunch of stuff, I pulled the Prop out, made some circuits, used the hotel TV to display, if I was wanting to do that, and it all rolled up into my backpack for later too. What I learned is little, tiny computers are really fun and useful computers. Sort of like 8 bit computers, only capable of doing a lot more, and that's damn cool man.
Now, for the peeps who didn't know much, that took a little bit more, but not too much more. Then they were off and doing stuff, reading that TV remote to make a servo move, playing games, pushing buttons to make things happen, etc...
The focus here is different. And that's why Parallax does not have a huge problem brewing right now.
Things have gotten really upside down here!
Meh..I started with just DIP Prop chip two transistors and some resistors. Soon got the tv demo up. Magic. Pointless but magic.
But I'll pretend it didn't.
Yeah, it's crazy. Some people want the guided tour, or well presented instructions, etc... support? Others? They are basically, "gimme the stuff" and they go off and do their thing.
Seems all good from here.
Edit: Hmmm.... I see the Pimoroni boards are manufactured in the UK, not in China.
Feeds the peeps, educates the kids, builds the infrastructure, etc...
Sometimes I can't, and that sucks. But when I can, I do. And the company I'm managing right now is all made in the USA. Hits home. All those people, their lives, kids, etc...
That's another what is worth what?
If getting it the very cheapest is always the priority, at some point, when is it YOU who ends up not making so much, and when it is you not making so much, how cheap is that cheap stuff really then?
And this should apply to anyone. Value your homeland. Nobody else will, and that's no joke.
The Raspberry Pi are made in the UK.
It's growing more possible to manufacture at scale outside of Asia.
But it's a trick. The Pi boards are made in Wales in a factory belonging to Sony. It was previously used to make Sony TVs. That factory has all the production line technology to do this at scale.
Edit: Another point is that they only make boards. Parallax makes chips as well. I suspect a lot of money gets sunk into P2 development. The RaspberryPi people just buy their chips from Broadcom.
It's actually kind of interesting and fun to poke into stuff like this.
Cost of Living Comparison Between Rocklin, CA and Cardiff
The factory where the Raspberry Pi is made is now called the Sony UK Technology Centre (Sony UK TEC) and is located in a small town about 15 miles from Cardiff. As far as I can find, it has never been shut down and is still owned and operated by Sony. However, there was a nearby, but separate, Sony facility that made CRT based TVs which was closed around 2005/2006.
Sony makes broadcast quality HD video cameras there, but can also do contract manufacturing. It seems like the Raspberry Pi has turned into one of their bigger contracts. I read that they had about 300 employees there in 2012, and the Pi production was originally done by 22 operators. Later, in early 2015, it was reported that they would add 30 jobs, to an existing 70 already dedicated to the Pi, in order to produce the Pi 2 computer.