I actually managed to get one of the last one from pihut. Together with a propellerhat . Will use it to upgrade the quickstart on one of my bigger robots, whenever i get the chance (which is no longer that frequent these days ;( )
I have never seen the price of electronic components, or anything for that matter, go up when you buy a larger quantity.
That is clever marketing indeed. Perhaps not in the way you think.
Demand is high, supply is low, at this moment. You might expect microcenter and others to exploit that situation and jack the price up. That's how things go in markets. They have not done that. Which is good of them.
They could just be nice and sell as you as many as you want for $5. As is the desired situation. They have not done that. Why not? Supply is low, demand is high, people have been profiteering by getting hold of Pi Zero cheap and offering on ebay for crazy high amounts. That means these buyers would be reaping a profit that microcenter could have had whilst at the same time ensuring that local kids who want one cheap don't get one because they are all sold out to profiteers. Microcenter have not taken this option either. Which is good of them.
So, we get the strange result that one is cheap two is expensive. This is essentially saying: We only want you to buy one so that more people get a fair chance to have one. Whist at the same time discouraging profiteering.
Brilliant. And fair and good of them.
When things have stabilized, production capacity is there and the crazy rush has subsided they will all be at the low price I'm sure.
For myself, I'm not in a hurry to get one. Without WIFI or Ethernet there is not a lot I want to do with it just now. I don't want to have to start buying a bunch of adapter cables. If it turns out we can use that USB OTG port to make the thing into a USB gadget then things migt get interesting.
@Heater
You should have been a lawyer as right or wrong you are willing to defend the innocence of others regardless of the facts presented. I tend to disagree with what you term as fair.
Isn't obvious that this is all a campaign to create demand for the Pi Zero? Also, it is drawing people to visit certain retail outlets, which may result in customers buying something else and more expensive.
Actually there are consumer protections laws against advertising merchandise that is not available at a low price in order to attract shoppers to your store. The illegal practise is termed 'bait and switch'. Still it is very difficult to police and enforce, so the practise still reoccurs. Taiwan's consumer electronics always seem to attempt bait and switch to the extent of displaying an array of lowest priced devices that will never be in stock except samples or empty boxes. Upsizing is a related practise.
++++++++++
And yes, without Wifi or Ethernet there are indeed more attractive devices if you desire to work with available on-line repositories.
Becareful about wifi in Linux -- not all devices are easy to support.
I just had to go shopping for another wifi dongle for my Cubieboard as not all are supported in Linux. And it seems none of the brands will actually tell you which chip is in their product, so you have verify in the internet that your purchase is compatible.
I just purchased D-Link DWA-121 which is supported in Linux and works with the Raspberry Pi and the Cubieboard. The chip is a Realtek 8188CUS (nowhere on the unopened box could I determine that importnant fact.)
Back to my Cubieboard, which actually came with a set of cables, a basic safe enclosure, and some versions even comes with a wall wart.
Boy you always seem to find the best deals, all that for $5! The last time I was at the Cubieboard the cheapest thing that I saw was ~$70. Before you go with the what if game, what if you have all the adaptors and dongles already. But wait, you probably already have some inside information that shows that is not true.
Well.. it is all buyer beware.
Before you rush out an buy a Pi Zero or a Raspberry Pi 2 or a Cubieboard...
(BTW, my Cubieboard1 has 1Gbyte of DDR3, a SATA interface, and CIR == yes about $70 USD, not $5 USD. )
I have never seen the price of electronic components, or anything for that matter, go up when you buy a larger quantity.
That is clever marketing indeed. Perhaps not in the way you think.
Demand is high, supply is low, at this moment. You might expect microcenter and others to exploit that situation and jack the price up. That's how things go in markets. They have not done that. Which is good of them.
They could just be nice and sell as you as many as you want for $5. As is the desired situation. They have not done that. Why not? Supply is low, demand is high, people have been profiteering by getting hold of Pi Zero cheap and offering on ebay for crazy high amounts. That means these buyers would be reaping a profit that microcenter could have had whilst at the same time ensuring that local kids who want one cheap don't get one because they are all sold out to profiteers. Microcenter have not taken this option either. Which is good of them.
So, we get the strange result that one is cheap two is expensive. This is essentially saying: We only want you to buy one so that more people get a fair chance to have one. Whist at the same time discouraging profiteering.
Brilliant. And fair and good of them.
When things have stabilized, production capacity is there and the crazy rush has subsided they will all be at the low price I'm sure.
For myself, I'm not in a hurry to get one. Without WIFI or Ethernet there is not a lot I want to do with it just now. I don't want to have to start buying a bunch of adapter cables. If it turns out we can use that USB OTG port to make the thing into a USB gadget then things migt get interesting.
@Heater
You should have been a lawyer as right or wrong you are willing to defend the innocence of others regardless of the facts presented. I tend to disagree with what you term as fair.
Isn't obvious that this is all a campaign to create demand for the Pi Zero? Also, it is drawing people to visit certain retail outlets, which may result in customers buying something else and more expensive.
Actually there are consumer protections laws against advertising merchandise that is not available at a low price in order to attract shoppers to your store. The illegal practise is termed 'bait and switch'. Still it is very difficult to police and enforce, so the practise still reoccurs. Taiwan's consumer electronics always seem to attempt bait and switch to the extent of displaying an array of lowest priced devices that will never be in stock except samples or empty boxes. Upsizing is a related practise.
++++++++++
And yes, without Wifi or Ethernet there are indeed more attractive devices if you desire to work with available on-line repositories.
Becareful about wifi in Linux -- not all devices are easy to support.
I just had to go shopping for another wifi dongle for my Cubieboard as not all are supported in Linux. And it seems none of the brands will actually tell you which chip is in their product, so you have verify in the internet that your purchase is compatible.
I just purchased D-Link DWA-121 which is supported in Linux and works with the Raspberry Pi and the Cubieboard. The chip is a Realtek 8188CUS (nowhere on the unopened box could I determine that importnant fact.)
Back to my Cubieboard, which actually came with a set of cables, a basic safe enclosure, and some versions even comes with a wall wart.
@Loopy, respectfully I have to say that I think you are talking absolute nonsense.
It's long been known your aversion to all things Pi, why I don't know, but please do us a favour and give it a rest.
I wonder what excuse you will come up with when production meets capacity and they are generally available for £4/$5?
I've got no reason to disbelieve what that the Raspberry Pi foundation are telling us because they have a PROVEN TRACK RECORD.
There are many millions of Pi's out there with a lot of them being used to assist in computer education, something the UK in particular has struggled with over the last few years.
This isn't some nefarious organisation as you keep alluding to but a registered charitable organisation whose primary goal is in improving computer education.
I ended up with 3 Pi Zeros and with little effort, I bought one for myself, one for a colleague and one for a friend.
I got two off the magazine cover and the third I bought from Pimoroni for £4, yes, that's right, four British Pounds.
Admittedly the postage was £2.50 but that is the same for all items, even Cubieboard has shipping costs.
So that's three SBC's for less than £20, a bargain in anybody's book.
Now I also have a Pimoroni Propeller Hat, the two in combination will make a great standalone development system, just plug in a HDMI monitor and wireless Keyboard and Mouse Combo.
(I already have the necessary power supply and interface cables so no there is no additional cost for me)
If you are buying a Zero to add WiFi and everything else then you are missing the point, you'd be better off buying a Pi 2 or Cubieboard instead.
This will have more success in standalone applications, it could be used to replace a microcontroller for example, it won't be suitable for all applications but then what is?
The more successful efforts will do exactly that sort of thing. High demand means brisk sales, which means a rapidly growing and active ecosystem, consistent supply commits and all sorts of other good things.
Retailers LOVE IT WHEN PEOPLE BUY MORE.
A hot, cheap item like the Zero is going to get the max attention, and it's due to the fact that the Zero is a hot, cheap item, and people interested in it are extremely likely to be interested in other things related to or associated to it.
The more the merrier too.
You can bet most of those people were happy parting with their money ...money which included some for a Zero as well as some other goodies. Nothing like a sweet deal to put one in the mood to spend a little.
And it's the holiday time! That's just a bonus for the Pi team, who really does know how to knock this stuff out of the park solid. Good on them.
None of this is anything like a bait and switch. That happens when they have no real intention of selling the deep discount item, or they do some nefarious thing to make it difficult for people in the hopes of selling them other stuff.
This?
Nah, it's just a rush on a cheap, hot thing that has been well positioned, marketed, released, promoted, and distributed for maximum retail / online sales impact. You are looking at the work of a team who knows what they are doing, not some evil group hell bent on ripping people off.
Your comments seem a bit like sour grapes to me. "How come people aren't as excited about this other thing??"
Want a hint?
That other thing, whatever it is, doesn't hit a price sweet spot, may not have the feature set that is most compelling for the dollars and the masses, is extremely likely not to have been released by a team who is savvy enough to compete with the Pi people, etc...
I can see all that from a mile away. "Cubie what?"
Seriously.
The difference seen here is a very nice, potent demonstration of just how much value marketing, positioning, planning, distribution, and all that other "business" and "sales" stuff actually can have on the overall impact and value perception of a product.
Had a totally non-technical friend bring the Zero up today. "A COMPUTER FOR $5!" They know what a Zero is, and they wanted to know if they can hook it up to their TV and do stuff. (yes, with a few odd and ends, some of which you might have laying around...)
I can't even begin to explain what a Propeller or even Cubie board is to them.
That's what the Pi people understand that most of the others out there really don't. This isn't about us, or people like us. It's all about kids, and other people, who might want to take a little step toward being like us, or just doing stuff, making things, playing games, etc...
The Pi has a killer ecosystem around it. People of all kinds doing stuff on a Pi. Perfect. That's why the Zero is hot. It's a cheaper entry into that same ecosystem. Heck, buy a 5 pack of the things and treat them exactly like those CPU chips in the plastic tube. No Joke.
I'm also not getting the Pi-hate.
As has been said, and is easily google-able, RPi foundation does pretty much meet their targets as far as pricing is concerned.
If anything, I expect the initial run was rushed a bit to capitalize on the holiday market and get some free buzz/PR to carry into the new year.
Over 5 Million RPi's sold to enthusiast and kids across the world for $25-35.
Significant effortexpense to bundle their own distro along with various others.
They've now introduced something similar to the RPi I, that costs 20% of the original.
Next year I wouldn't be surprised if they are able to do something similar for the RPI 2, maybe at $10 ?
RPi isn't making any extra money on this, however some of their marketers and regular Joe's recognize there is a supple-demand potential here and are acting upon it. A lot of Black Friday and Cyber Monday stuff ends up on CL/eBay too.
How/why is RPi being sneaky or taking advantage of anyone here?
No one's arm is being twisted to buy one of these. Well, aside from now making something cheap enough to make one think before going with a uC in some instances.
I'm not sure if you are really getting what is happening here.
The holy grail for everyone and their brother for the past 2 decades has been ultra-small, ultra-cheap computers, preferably Linux.
Now its here, though a few warts still remain.
Potatohead,
Exactly.
Also, the RPi and RPi 2 successes are what allowed them to go ahead with the Zero don't forget.
And while I'm not thrilled that RPi didn't add SATA to the RPi 2 a la Bannana and Orange Pi's, it apparently isn't yet much of a killer considering how poorly the copy-cats have done even though they've added it.
In general, the people I've seen dismiss the RPi ( as I did initially) have done so because it wasn't an actual desktop replacement. No SATA, no WiFi, no GB enet, etc.
Or they had a Beaglebone or other system dev/SOC-type board and couldn't just live and let live...
I've got a spare junker USB2 hub and wifi laying around. I can set this up with TinyCore 50-75MB OS all in RAM, and finally make my internet radio kit to install in a nice retro-radio for $5 real cost.
LOL, man, talk about a portable computer....
Thanks guys. I grow weary of countering Loopy's unfounded insinuations of wrong doing by the Raspberry Pi Foundation.
No it is not "...obvious that this is all a campaign to create demand for the Pi Zero?".
A couple of guys at the Pi Foundation put together this Pi variant. With an impossibly low target price in mind. Got 10,000 of them made. And then announced it. There was no campaign, not even a single word that anything new was coming.
With 7 million Pi owners in the world there was no need for any campaign to spark demand.
I'm starting to think that some Americans are so brain washed by the capitalist agenda they are immersed in since birth that they become highly suspicious of anyone doing anything that is not self centred and driven by the profit motive. They just can't understand that there may be motives other than money. Like doing things for the common good. Or heck, just having fun with a community of like minded people.
You left off a 0, I believe I read that they made 100,000 and they will see how the demand goes, if there is a demand then they will make some more. I think distributors/retailers are usually cautious as to how big the initial order is going to be of a new product.
I was thinking that the Pi Zero would be a good match for the Hackable Badge, but I think maybe the $9 CHIP would be a better match, depending on the size of the board. The built in WiFi would be the difference that I am looking at.
Well, I have just been presenting facts and doubts, calling them unfounded insinualtions is a defensive tactic.
To those that are above reproach, there should be no worry. But I have gotten very strong rhetorical shaming from the Raspberry Pi side of this since the beginning rather than objective discussion or disclosure. Sales success is just simply the wrong measure of educational value. And there approach to education on the Raspberry Pi from the beginning has been to expect teachers and schools to fall into line just because it is the cheapest and smallest. But the device initally requires HDMI or conversion to VGA, and another computer for cross-compling. It may actually cost more to deploy because it is the smallest and cheapest.
1. There have always been alternatives to the Raspberry Pi in the SoC boards with Linux that offered a more sensible design and possibly a better value even though they were not the smallest nor the cheapest.
Orange Pi seems to currently be very attractive as an alternative, Cubieboard is just my personal alternative that came out a few months after the Raspberry Pi.
2. Using an educational non-profit approach to brand creation is dubious at best. The US is chock full of non-profit foundations that mostly benefit the salaries staff while claiming a noble mission.... all prefectly legal. But this is a sophisticated effort to create a brand in direct competition with Parallax. So why should I welcome their promotional buzz here without lampooning it. Ardiuno founders did the same and even started out their campaign expressing hopes to put Parallax out of business.
3. Selling 7,000,000 million units has really very little to do with children or education. It has to do with marketing and promotion. And Raspberry Pi seems to have use the Parallax Forums to drive those sales numbers.
4. While I really like Linux, it seems to add a lot of extra burden to new users of any age that want to learn to electronics and microcontrollers. Also, Linux has LInux User Groups that already provide educational support in many places.
5. There is nothing wrong with Broadcomm ARM SoCs or Linux.
What puts me off is the brand creation.
Many would love to be part of the upper management of an organization such as Raspberry Pi (the non-profit foundation and/or the for-profit trading company), the benefits must be better than being a member of unversity faculty.
But educators that work in university settings generally accept less material rewards because they feel that are really contributing to society.
Yes it is all perfect legal, and it is good capitalism. But is this really the direction that education should go? I personally don't thing so.
Well, I have just been presenting facts and doubts, calling them unfounded insinualtions is a defensive tactic.
To those that are above reproach, there should be no worry. But I have gotten very strong rhetorical shaming from the Raspberry Pi side of this since the beginning rather than objective discussion or disclosure. Sales success is just simply the wrong measure of educational value. And there approach to education on the Raspberry Pi from the beginning has been to expect teachers and schools to fall into line just because it is the cheapest and smallest. But the device initally requires HDMI or conversion to VGA, and another computer for cross-compling. It may actually cost more to deploy because it is the smallest and cheapest.
1. There have always been alternatives to the Raspberry Pi in the SoC boards with Linux that offered a more sensible design and possibly a better value even though they were not the smallest nor the cheapest.
Orange Pi seems to currently be very attractive as an alternative, Cubieboard is just my personal alternative that came out a few months after the Raspberry Pi.
2. Using an educational non-profit approach to brand creation is dubious at best. The US is chock full of non-profit foundations that mostly benefit the salaries staff while claiming a noble mission.... all prefectly legal. But this is a sophisticated effort to create a brand in direct competition with Parallax. So why should I welcome their promotional buzz here without lampooning it. Ardiuno founders did the same and even started out their campaign expressing hopes to put Parallax out of business.
3. Selling 7,000,000 million units has really very little to do with children or education. It has to do with marketing and promotion. And Raspberry Pi seems to have use the Parallax Forums to drive those sales numbers.
4. While I really like Linux, it seems to add a lot of extra burden to new users of any age that want to learn to electronics and microcontrollers. Also, Linux has LInux User Groups that already provide educational support in many places.
5. There is nothing wrong with Broadcomm ARM SoCs or Linux.
What puts me off is the brand creation.
Many would love to be part of the upper management of an organization such as Raspberry Pi (the non-profit foundation and/or the for-profit trading company), the benefits must be better than being a member of unversity faculty.
But educators that work in university settings generally accept less material rewards because they feel that are really contributing to society.
Yes it is all perfect legal, and it is good capitalism. But is this really the direction that education should go? I personally don't thing so.
Wow! Just wow!
I'll not waste any more time on you.
I'll just be safe in the knowledge that my 12 year old son is currently being taught computer programming in school, and on a Raspberry Pi.
Whereas my 18 year old daughter, who missed the Pi was taught ICT Skills, which basically means she can do a mean Excel, Word or Power Point.
I know which I'd rather have and which will benefit the kids and ultimately the country more.
Not bad from an organisation who are carrying out, as you say, "a sophisticated effort to create a brand in direct competition with Parallax."
What's up? You are clearly trying to wind us up. Or you have no clue about what you speak.
We have been through all this before here I'm not about to start again.
But please stop slandering the Raspberry Pi Foundation as if it's members and volunteers
were profiteering out of it. "Good capitalism" indeed, good grief.
What's up? You are clearly trying to wind us up. Or you have no clue about what you speak.
We have been through all this before here I'm not about to start again.
But please stop slandering the Raspberry Pi Foundation as if it's members and volunteers
were profiteering out of it. "Good capitalism" indeed, good grief.
I agree. I'm still just plain miffed regarding the missed chance from Micro Center. I've since told Adafruit to remind me when they get more.
---
Erco? I see your wandering robot landed where he lives and is now throwing snowballs at the passing cars.
Heater, it was you that previously mentioned that the Raspberry Pi was good capitalism. I'd have to dig to locate the exact comment, but it was within the past month.
I have never been to the U.K. and haven't been back to the USA since about 2002 - so I've no idea what the Raspberry Pi Foundation has been doing in those places. Nonetheless, the Raspberry Pi Foundation seems to have its major educational focus in the U.K.
There are other approaches to computer education. Ken Gracey spent years personally visiting schools in the U.S to support education via the BasicStamp. And Parallax has offered quantity discounts to schools as long as I recall. And the same has evolved for the Propeller. Andy Lindsay, who wrote the BasicStamp2 manual has an education background.
Teaching LInux rather than Unix is a good thing. But any old Excel machine is capable of being re-purposed for Linux.
Raspberry Pi depends on extremely high volumes of sales, so it works with retailers and distributor channels that create the environment you are experiencing. It is a consumer product first and an educational product second. If it were the other way around, it would be taking purchase orders of Pi Zeros in unlimited quantities from school districts rather than selling the first on for $5 and any more for $9.99.
Think about it. Where is the discount channel for bulk school orders in their distribution network? I doesnt' seem to exist as of yet.
I may have said something about "good capitalism" as opposed to the "bad capitalism" you keep hinting at.
Nonetheless, the Raspberry Pi Foundation seems to have its major educational focus in the U.K.
Perhaps true. So what? How do you expect a hand full of people in the UK to cover the world? None the less, the materials they produce are no doubt available to anyone as is the Pi itself.
There are other approaches to computer education...
No doubt. But be sure the Pi people get around schools, and have backgrounds in education.
Teaching LInux rather than Unix is a good thing. But any old Excel machine is capable of being re-purposed for Linux.
True but irrelevant. The Pi was designed to be small and cheap so that every kid could have one, hack it at home, break it, do what they like. Like we did with Sinclair Spectrums and C64's as kids. Platforms that inspired a lot of that generation to pursue engineering careers.
Giant, busted old PC's, with a Linux install disk do not fit the bill.
Raspberry Pi depends on extremely high volumes of sales
No, it does not. When the Pi was created and launched it was expect that they might sell a few
thousands or perhaps tens of thousands, ever. Nobody expected the exponential growth in demand that followed.
It is a consumer product first and an educational product second.
Wrong in so many ways.
If it were the other way around, it would be taking purchase orders of Pi Zeros in unlimited quantities from school districts rather than selling the first on for $5
Anyone would be stupid to manufacture unlimited quantities of devices at launch. What if it turns out nobody wants one? If the demand is there they will get made, as they have demonstrated spectacularly well over the years since the Pi came out.
Think about it. Where is the discount channel for bulk school orders in their distribution network?
Think about it. How can you offer discount on a device you are already providing at the lowest
possible price you can manage?
I have yet to hear of schools complaining they cannot get what they want. Have you?
Aside: I was just today accused of being "off my rocker" on the Pi forum after I replying to a young chap who wanted to learn some assembler. I suggested he might have fun and an easier time learning assembler for the Propeller. Why "off my rocker"? Because Parallax boards are so ridiculously expensive. Luckily there is the Pimoroni Propeller board for the Pi that is only £10
Luckily there is the Pimoroni Propeller board for the Pi that is only £10
To my surprise, when I added (2) propeller HATs to my cart, they were only £8.33 each; (2) boards shipped to the U.S. for less than $32 !
This is now the cheapest prop board available, and soon we'll be able to add a $20 remote prop plug to the order ($5 Pi Zero + $7 WiFi dongle + $2 USB adapter + $6 SD card) that happens to be a very capable embedded Linux computer.
I have high hopes for the C.H.I.P., but I doubt it will have a propeller HAT available for it anytime soon, especially at these giveaway prices.
Nope, I meant 'good capitalism' versus 'good education'. Sales do not equal the transfer of knowledge, at least not directly.
I am not going to draw out a long debate. But I will assert that having an opposing opinion about the Raspberry Pi is not necessarily a bad thing. There are and were things they did poorly - like inadequate power to the USB ports on the first board. 600ma may drive the CPU but the keyboard and mouse need another 500ma each.
My 'problems' began when I found that an opposing opinion wasn't tolerated and rather than rebut with query and fact, I just consitently getting barraged with 'it is for the kids' and a lot of 'shame on you'. (I am still getting that and yet I strongly supect more sales have gone to enthusiast than children in an educational setting.)
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I guess you don't comprehend what a purchase order is.
It is like crowd sourcing. You collect a big pile of purchase orders, then go to the bank for funding and run your production to fill the orders. School districts can issue purchase orders. So can any company.
So it seems to me.. $5 is the defacto discount price (at one per customer), $9.99 seems to be somewhere closer to the retail price. I still think unlimited $5 unit price for schools would be more in line with their mission and the rest of us just pay $9.99. Schools could pass through the savings to students, and huge shipping costs per unit would be abated by bulk orders. This used to be the way businesses normally did things, before internet promotions.
In the original crowd sourcing, we had a choice to buy two and the Raspberry Pi Foundation promised it would deliver one to a worthy child. It could have just as easily offered 2 for the price of one to all volume purchases by schools to acomplish this in a more direct fashion. How did they fill their commitment to deliver those? I've never been able to verify what was done.
+++++++++++++
Actually, after thinking a bit... I do have to concede that in one way the Raspberry Pi is a very good thing for education. It has taken away schools being pushed into Microsoft or Apple platform, which are quite expensive to the educational instituition.
I just have never seen how to cheaply resolve the HDMI monitor interface without Raspberry Pi producing a simple VGA adapter that connects to GPIO (and they haven't to my knowledge). My HDMI to VGA adapter cost roughly $25, as much as the first Raspberry Pi. So it seemed the hidden costs to schools would be multiples of the cost of the Raspberry Pi.
Second, Linux does indeed open up the educational courses to more computer fundamentals just because everything is open source. Teachers are free to expand curriculum in many directions without having to plead funding for more software licenses.
In the long run, those facts are extremely redeeming when weighed against the heavy promotional hype. I'm a believer in Linux being more educationally empowering because it is open-sourced.
I still reserve the right to not use or like Raspberry Pi products, and I think that if Eben Upton was really the educational visionary that all the promotion claims, he would not be working in the for-profit Raspberry Pi Trading side and for Broadcom. He'd be directly developing the educational infrastructure of the Raspberry Pi Foundation. The fact that he quit the foundation board and went to Broadcomm seemed to be a legal defensive moved to put all the early promotion decisions far in the remote past.
The other side of this has been that this is a Parallax Forum and you and others that pushed the Raspberry Pi have taken advantage of a very generous host to establish a competative brand. So I simply pushed back. Arduino and the TI430 have taken similar liberties.
I suppose I am simply jaded by the fact that so many have previously claimed the educational value of their computer platform or application to parents and failed to deliver.
So much depends on Raspberry Pi Foundation having an enduring follow through. The hardware simply could have been a bit less rushed and better. Education rarely gets good results from being overrun by promotional hype.
Ok, finally we get to the root of it. Loopy sez: "What puts me off is the brand creation."
He sees a minor league type of self-serving behavior and or hypocrisy in the branding and overall attention the Pi is getting coupled with some profit.
First, the foundation is operating to get Pi computers into peoples hands cheap. That, right there, is an educational goal. They are reinvesting regularly to improve the computers too. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. If they didn't make some to reinvest, they wouldn't continue on their mission.
Others, selling into education, are making a profit, and some of that might be seen as excessive and counter to the "into peoples hands for cheap"
Yeah, maybe. I've seen lots of kitters selling things out there for a fair amount of money. A blinker LED kit could be $15, and people who don't know much, will pay it. But, they will have had a fun time and learned some stuff too. No real harm there. And if they did learn, they can build a few blinkies for that same $15 later on their own too. Net gain.
Sadly loopy, the world runs on money and the majority of the world is capitalist, or very seriously underdeveloped. Branding linked to education is one way to be very successful in the cause of education.
The purists are going to be lost in the noise, and that sucks for them, but one must then evaluate what is worth what?
Stay pure and be ignored by all but a few like minded people? Griping about the ugly nature of it all the whole time?
Or, get after it, and be successful in educating and empowering the masses?
The Pi people have made that evaluation with stellar results. "Cubie what?" maybe could learn a few things, or maybe it's worth it to respect how they have evaluated what is worth what?
So now we know. Thanks Loopy. You really won't benefit much from the ongoing complaints and attempts to marginalize this stuff. It's great you've chosen a more purist type path. Just give others the same respect you are getting and realize they will have chosen a different path to their goals.
The sum of your objections is really down to, "doing it that way is icky" and great!
So noted.
Now, we can move on to tech and what people do with it, what we can learn about all of that, and what we do with it.
That is, in fact, what we are all here for. I'm quite sure Parallax would agree entirely.
And, remember, what is worth what? Ask our friends here what success means to their families and ability to bring new things to their fans / followers / customers.
Way of the world buddy. There are many days I wish it were a bit different, but it's just not. Being a realist and a pragmatist, I'm gonna roll with it and maximize my time and opportunity here. You are free to do it differently, of course.
Yes! Learning assembler on it is one of the high value adds that warrant the price Parallax needs to charge.
This again, is what is worth what?
Most people have some entertainment dollars and they spend them every month. Entertainment is a constant need for nearly all peeps. Movies, games, hobbies, etc...
If learning assembler is "fun", then the cost of a Prop isn't all that high relative to say, a new video game that runs you $60, with additional downloadable bits taking the whole experience to say, $100 over time.
A new game can deliver 20-100 hours of entertainment.
I would argue that learning assembler can deliver 20-100 hours of entertainment.
It is this kind of thing that allows the Propeller and Parallax to exist.
Rather than harp on things, it's better to realize why people do what they do and a big part of that is how they evaluate what is worth what?
I consider the Propeller cheap. It's very high bang for the buck. The only thing even close is getting old computers off e-bay to learn and tinker / hack on. A good setup on one of those is a couple hundred dollars, and a lot of time, if you were not there in the 80's. I was, so retro makes great sense for me.
But, it won't make great sense for somebody who doesn't understand the old stuff. Enter the Propeller! For under $100, you are in, programming, doing retro class stuff, learning a ton, making your gadgets go, and you buy into a great group of people, who are very interested in seeing what you do and helping you do it.
Heck of a deal.
You can take "retro" and "simple" out of it, move one layer up in the computing world, and plug the Pi into the same statements. Hell of a deal compared to just about anything else you can find that can run Linux and do stuff people might want to do.
Re: Consumer and educational product.
Here is what the Pi people didn't know. It blindsided them along with many others. The Pi is both an educational thing AND a consumer thing.
Turns out many consumers will drop $100 on some vision they have or thing they want to do. Movie player, robot mover, portable computer thing, etc... Ordinary consumers kind of like a little toy they can play with that is low risk, sort of disposable and reasonably simple.
Who would have thought?
Nobody, until we saw the masses buying the Pi and doing all sorts of stuff with it.
Now we know that's true. Others can learn from the Pi Foundation and do well. As they should, and if they do heed those market lessons, we will be better off with more toys to choose from and more friends to meet and do stuff with.
No more complicated than that. Really.
There is no conspiracy, there is no corruption, no secret agenda, or anything like that. Just an accidental home run. The market, which is people with money to spend, told is loudly that things like the Pi are very welcome and in high demand.
Even that market didn't know, until they did. And they did when the right thing comes along.
Woz found that out with the Apple 2, as did Tandy, Atari, Commodore, Sinclair, Acorn, et al.
When stuff like the Pi happens, it's a good thing. We all learn something good, and that makes opportunity for some of us, fun for a lot of us, options for those of us who need it. Beautiful when it happens.
Long ago, a young Spud was living in poverty.* The visions for cheap computers came along at just the right time. And that young Spud jumped on the train and rode it for all it's worth. Today, that same kind of thing can happen with the stuff you find in the dumpster and local thrifty store, or brand new with a Pi, cheap enough that nearly anyone who wants one can get one.
*I write that with pride actually. I had a freaking great time growing up. Was a little hungry once in a while, but I was otherwise free to learn, play, do, build, etc... Looking back, I was a lucky kid. My family didn't have much, but I was born in a wealthy place willing to throw away enough for people to build a life on.
These Pi type things are close to my heart for that reason. Cheap, ubiquitous, powerful. Hope they make millions and millions. An entire world will benefit, one Spud at a time attending the school of hard knocks.
Want to talk about education. Well, there you go. That's how I see it, up front and personal. No joke.
Here's the other lesson I got out of that at a very early age. Purity is a luxury. Wealthy people can choose purity and do so with relative impunity. They have means and that typically means they have time and money, but it could just be a lot of time too. Time is the mark of wealth. When you have it, you are wealthy.
I had time as a kid. Lots of it. I was wealthy. And that is why I often write "poverty", because we didn't have much money, but it also really didn't matter, so long as there was time and some spark to go do stuff with that time.
When people write about education, they very often forget the "has time, but no money" use case. But that's exactly the kind of use case things like the Pi, and early 8 bit computers, have in common. Ordinary people can get one, and go on to do amazing things. It's enabling tech, and enabling is as much of a part of education as any lofty, pure, citadel of academia is.
Again, no joke. I'm dead serious.
I don't like this world much for the ugly artifacts of capitalism and corruption. But, I do like this world a lot for some other nice artifacts of the same.
What is worth what?
That is the life question. Some of us got forced to think about that at age 10. Others may never actually have to consider it.
Loopy, take some of this and think hard about it. A lot of your comments make very little sense, and I've put some of why that is and how it matters as much as anything matters. Perspective man. Get some. Hopefully, I've put a little here, food for your thoughts.
Well, I have just been presenting facts and doubts, calling them unfounded insinualtions is a defensive tactic.
To those that are above reproach, there should be no worry. But I have gotten very strong rhetorical shaming from the Raspberry Pi side of this since the beginning rather than objective discussion or disclosure. Sales success is just simply the wrong measure of educational value. And there approach to education on the Raspberry Pi from the beginning has been to expect teachers and schools to fall into line just because it is the cheapest and smallest. But the device initally requires HDMI or conversion to VGA, and another computer for cross-compling. It may actually cost more to deploy because it is the smallest and cheapest.
1. There have always been alternatives to the Raspberry Pi in the SoC boards with Linux that offered a more sensible design and possibly a better value even though they were not the smallest nor the cheapest.
Orange Pi seems to currently be very attractive as an alternative, Cubieboard is just my personal alternative that came out a few months after the Raspberry Pi.
2. Using an educational non-profit approach to brand creation is dubious at best. The US is chock full of non-profit foundations that mostly benefit the salaries staff while claiming a noble mission.... all prefectly legal. But this is a sophisticated effort to create a brand in direct competition with Parallax. So why should I welcome their promotional buzz here without lampooning it. Ardiuno founders did the same and even started out their campaign expressing hopes to put Parallax out of business.
3. Selling 7,000,000 million units has really very little to do with children or education. It has to do with marketing and promotion. And Raspberry Pi seems to have use the Parallax Forums to drive those sales numbers.
4. While I really like Linux, it seems to add a lot of extra burden to new users of any age that want to learn to electronics and microcontrollers. Also, Linux has LInux User Groups that already provide educational support in many places.
5. There is nothing wrong with Broadcomm ARM SoCs or Linux.
What puts me off is the brand creation.
Many would love to be part of the upper management of an organization such as Raspberry Pi (the non-profit foundation and/or the for-profit trading company), the benefits must be better than being a member of unversity faculty.
But educators that work in university settings generally accept less material rewards because they feel that are really contributing to society.
Yes it is all perfect legal, and it is good capitalism. But is this really the direction that education should go? I personally don't thing so.
Wow! Just wow!
I'll not waste any more time on you.
I'll just be safe in the knowledge that my 12 year old son is currently being taught computer programming in school, and on a Raspberry Pi.
Whereas my 18 year old daughter, who missed the Pi was taught ICT Skills, which basically means she can do a mean Excel, Word or Power Point.
I know which I'd rather have and which will benefit the kids and ultimately the country more.
Not bad from an organisation who are carrying out, as you say, "a sophisticated effort to create a brand in direct competition with Parallax."
Parallax is a much smaller business than the Raspberry Pi in terms of sales volume. It too has an educational mission.
Please see my previous post. I do admit that learning Linux on a Raspberry Pi is an advancement in early computer education. But this is a Parallax hosted forum and Raspberry Pi promotions are invassive.
Parallax currently has a sale of 35% off everything through 11/30/15 Please consider supporting them as well.
Yes! Learning assembler on it is one of the high value adds that warrant the price Parallax needs to charge.
This again, is what is worth what?
Most people have some entertainment dollars and they spend them every month. Entertainment is a constant need for nearly all peeps. Movies, games, hobbies, etc...
If learning assembler is "fun", then the cost of a Prop isn't all that high relative to say, a new video game that runs you $60, with additional downloadable bits taking the whole experience to say, $100 over time.
A new game can deliver 20-100 hours of entertainment.
I would argue that learning assembler can deliver 20-100 hours of entertainment.
It is this kind of thing that allows the Propeller and Parallax to exist.
Rather than harp on things, it's better to realize why people do what they do and a big part of that is how they evaluate what is worth what?
I consider the Propeller cheap. It's very high bang for the buck. The only thing even close is getting old computers off e-bay to learn and tinker / hack on. A good setup on one of those is a couple hundred dollars, and a lot of time, if you were not there in the 80's. I was, so retro makes great sense for me.
But, it won't make great sense for somebody who doesn't understand the old stuff. Enter the Propeller! For under $100, you are in, programming, doing retro class stuff, learning a ton, making your gadgets go, and you buy into a great group of people, who are very interested in seeing what you do and helping you do it.
Heck of a deal.
You can take "retro" and "simple" out of it, move one layer up in the computing world, and plug the Pi into the same statements. Hell of a deal compared to just about anything else you can find that can run Linux and do stuff people might want to do.
Re: Consumer and educational product.
Here is what the Pi people didn't know. It blindsided them along with many others. The Pi is both an educational thing AND a consumer thing.
Turns out many consumers will drop $100 on some vision they have or thing they want to do. Movie player, robot mover, portable computer thing, etc... Ordinary consumers kind of like a little toy they can play with that is low risk, sort of disposable and reasonably simple.
Who would have thought?
Nobody, until we saw the masses buying the Pi and doing all sorts of stuff with it.
Now we know that's true. Others can learn from the Pi Foundation and do well. As they should, and if they do heed those market lessons, we will be better off with more toys to choose from and more friends to meet and do stuff with.
No more complicated than that. Really.
There is no conspiracy, there is no corruption, no secret agenda, or anything like that. Just an accidental home run. The market, which is people with money to spend, told is loudly that things like the Pi are very welcome and in high demand.
Even that market didn't know, until they did. And they did when the right thing comes along.
Woz found that out with the Apple 2, as did Tandy, Atari, Commodore, Sinclair, Acorn, et al.
When stuff like the Pi happens, it's a good thing. We all learn something good, and that makes opportunity for some of us, fun for a lot of us, options for those of us who need it. Beautiful when it happens.
Long ago, a young Spud was living in poverty.* The visions for cheap computers came along at just the right time. And that young Spud jumped on the train and rode it for all it's worth. Today, that same kind of thing can happen with the stuff you find in the dumpster and local thrifty store, or brand new with a Pi, cheap enough that nearly anyone who wants one can get one.
*I write that with pride actually. I had a freaking great time growing up. Was a little hungry once in a while, but I was otherwise free to learn, play, do, build, etc... Looking back, I was a lucky kid. My family didn't have much, but I was born in a wealthy place willing to throw away enough for people to build a life on.
These Pi type things are close to my heart for that reason. Cheap, ubiquitous, powerful. Hope they make millions and millions. An entire world will benefit, one Spud at a time attending the school of hard knocks.
Want to talk about education. Well, there you go. That's how I see it, up front and personal. No joke.
Here's the other lesson I got out of that at a very early age. Purity is a luxury. Wealthy people can choose purity and do so with relative impunity. They have means and that typically means they have time and money, but it could just be a lot of time too. Time is the mark of wealth. When you have it, you are wealthy.
I had time as a kid. Lots of it. I was wealthy. And that is why I often write "poverty", because we didn't have much money, but it also really didn't matter, so long as there was time and some spark to go do stuff with that time.
When people write about education, they very often forget the "has time, but no money" use case. But that's exactly the kind of use case things like the Pi, and early 8 bit computers, have in common. Ordinary people can get one, and go on to do amazing things. It's enabling tech, and enabling is as much of a part of education as any lofty, pure, citadel of academia is.
Again, no joke. I'm dead serious.
I don't like this world much for the ugly artifacts of capitalism and corruption. But, I do like this world a lot for some other nice artifacts of the same.
What is worth what?
That is the life question. Some of us got forced to think about that at age 10. Others may never actually have to consider it.
Loopy, take some of this and think hard about it. A lot of your comments make very little sense, and I've put some of why that is and how it matters as much as anything matters. Perspective man. Get some. Hopefully, I've put a little here, food for your thoughts.
Well, I've had my say... I am giving yours a thoughtful read. I really don't desire to put everyone in an uproar.
A. I too think the Propeller is an excellent value. One of the best around.
B. But I had doubts from the beginning about quality of engineering of Raspberry Pis, so I went to something different. They seem to win on price point and smallness.
Which is better for education? Nobody knows for sure. It's the teachers that really prove that.
But this is a Parallax hosted forum and Raspberry Pi promotions are invassive.
While I am now using a Pi2 as my primary computer, my foremost interest in the Pi is as an extension for my prop projects. I will buy, use, and sell *more* propeller chips/boards because of the way the Pi extends the prop's capabilities in a way that is much easier and more powerful than trying to implement all of that functionality directly on the prop. Without the Pi, many of my prop projects would never get done; I may never even attempt some of them.
To my knowledge, I have never used a Pi in place of a prop; they are simply not interchangeable, except perhaps for blinking an LED. Having said that, I can see that they could be competitive for education and entertainment, but in my case, they have increased both of these by being used together.
Price and small, and don't forget a nice, appealing, "just enough" feature set.
As far as engineering quality, again, evaluate what is worth what? Given the low failure rates, I would say the Pi engineering is solid. Goals were set, engineers met them at the price points also set, done, next.
Over engineering is as big of a sin as incompetent engineering is.
The Pi people did not over engineer much at all. Given their stated goals, I'm not sure anything negative can really be said about the engineering. It's competent and the product is successful.
Anything else is actually questioning the goals, not the engineering.
You've made your questions about the goals quite clear. They can point to a lot of success and ask, "so what?"
@altosack
You might like the VoCore even better... very tiny headless Linux device has wifi, LAN, and more. The serial port will connect to and program a Propeller.
Well, I have just been presenting facts and doubts, calling them unfounded insinualtions is a defensive tactic.
To those that are above reproach, there should be no worry. But I have gotten very strong rhetorical shaming from the Raspberry Pi side of this since the beginning rather than objective discussion or disclosure. Sales success is just simply the wrong measure of educational value. And there approach to education on the Raspberry Pi from the beginning has been to expect teachers and schools to fall into line just because it is the cheapest and smallest. But the device initally requires HDMI or conversion to VGA, and another computer for cross-compling. It may actually cost more to deploy because it is the smallest and cheapest.
1. There have always been alternatives to the Raspberry Pi in the SoC boards with Linux that offered a more sensible design and possibly a better value even though they were not the smallest nor the cheapest.
Orange Pi seems to currently be very attractive as an alternative, Cubieboard is just my personal alternative that came out a few months after the Raspberry Pi.
2. Using an educational non-profit approach to brand creation is dubious at best. The US is chock full of non-profit foundations that mostly benefit the salaries staff while claiming a noble mission.... all prefectly legal. But this is a sophisticated effort to create a brand in direct competition with Parallax. So why should I welcome their promotional buzz here without lampooning it. Ardiuno founders did the same and even started out their campaign expressing hopes to put Parallax out of business.
3. Selling 7,000,000 million units has really very little to do with children or education. It has to do with marketing and promotion. And Raspberry Pi seems to have use the Parallax Forums to drive those sales numbers.
4. While I really like Linux, it seems to add a lot of extra burden to new users of any age that want to learn to electronics and microcontrollers. Also, Linux has LInux User Groups that already provide educational support in many places.
5. There is nothing wrong with Broadcomm ARM SoCs or Linux.
What puts me off is the brand creation.
Many would love to be part of the upper management of an organization such as Raspberry Pi (the non-profit foundation and/or the for-profit trading company), the benefits must be better than being a member of unversity faculty.
But educators that work in university settings generally accept less material rewards because they feel that are really contributing to society.
Yes it is all perfect legal, and it is good capitalism. But is this really the direction that education should go? I personally don't thing so.
Wow! Just wow!
I'll not waste any more time on you.
I'll just be safe in the knowledge that my 12 year old son is currently being taught computer programming in school, and on a Raspberry Pi.
Whereas my 18 year old daughter, who missed the Pi was taught ICT Skills, which basically means she can do a mean Excel, Word or Power Point.
I know which I'd rather have and which will benefit the kids and ultimately the country more.
Not bad from an organisation who are carrying out, as you say, "a sophisticated effort to create a brand in direct competition with Parallax."
Parallax is a much smaller business than the Raspberry Pi in terms of sales volume. It too has an educational mission.
Please see my previous post. I do admit that learning Linux on a Raspberry Pi is an advancement in early computer education. But this is a Parallax hosted forum and Raspberry Pi promotions are invassive.
Parallax currently has a sale of 35% off everything through 11/30/15 Please consider supporting them as well.
I do support Parallax and have done for more than 8 years.
I have sold many hundreds of Propeller based products around the world and have several product lines in production that are sold every week.
I do not publicise/sell them on here because they are for a very specialist market, the nature of my business is in security.
Whilst I will never do high volume sales I do my bit to contribute to the Parallax coffers, never mind all the protoboards and such like I have also purchased over the years.
I don't think anyone is promoting the Pi ahead of Propeller, you've got that wrong.
If anything the Pi is a compliment to a Propeller and vice versa, should we not be free to explore those possibilities at least!
This is the General Discussions forum and as far as I am aware nothing in this thread is in violation of the forum guidelines so we are free to carry on in this vein, if you don't like it then don't read it.
@Coley
Actually, I am listening and good points are being made in defense of the Pi.
I simply found the original crowd funding offensive on the Parallax Forums and people making claims that were quite speculative about how it might be educational.
I have taught English in Taiwan for 20 years and have seen a tremendous amount of hype in English language education come and go. My impression of the Raspberry Pi is that it was likely to be something similar in computer education. The realities of loading the Raspberry Pi with Linux in the intial product seemed to me to be expecting too much from teachers, young students or parents.
Assertions were made that just made little sense about what kids might do, like developing sophisticated video games.
There is one thing I can say with almost certainty.
Had Eben Upton not pushed and pushed to get the original Pi out, my Son would be most likely being 'educated' on Excel, Word and PowerPoint by now.
Instead he is excited by the likes of Scratch and the API programming of Minecraft, all without any influence from me.
Slowly he is beginning to understand about logic and programming, the same goes for his peers.
Know what Loopy? I think I just might shoot every single one of your exceptions down. Let's get it done. I'm game. Maybe this is a good thing.
Heck, long ago, tons of us were reading program listings out of magazines in the grocery store, typing in programs, and making 8 bit computers do stuff. I, along with a few friends, got my first assembler that way. Typed it in from COMPUTE! magazine, and proceeded to write 6502 assembly, having learned some of it from the ROM listings and mini-assembler in the Apple 2. We were told we were crazy, until we were not. That happened about the time we started making those machines really do stuff. One educator back then got it. He saw what was happening, took us aside, and basically said, "let's go for it!" No formal curriculum. Just books, group work, mentoring, projects, access to stuff. We made games, wrote programs for the school, sounds, learned assembly language, etc... I ended up teaching LOGO and PASCAL for my Senior project. Wrote the whole course over the summer. That guy asked me to. Why? Because he thought I might actually get it done.
I make a good living doing adult education today. Funny how that kind of empowerment and education can work, isn't it? And I'm not so special. Rather ordinary actually. I just love this stuff. This kind of thing is happening all over the place and it's happening on Propeller, Pi, Linux, and all sorts of things.
Honestly, I think you vastly underestimate what people can / will do. See the second video? That's Dad, who seems to be jazzed up on the Pi, doing computer stuff with kids.
I've brought some people into programming with Propeller too. SPIN is stupid easy, as is PASM. Worth every penny. Once people start to write code, you never know what they can / will do. It's a lot like watching people with Legos actually. Ever see somebody get it, and then just build this monster thing?
Yeah, code works the same way. A little kid, who gets it, might just pour a month into some project and that's enough time to do something significant.
Here's another one: Some time back, Android tablets were delivered to a village in Ethiopia. They just dropped 'em off, and they put monitoring software on them to observe what functionally illiterate people would do with advanced technology. This village had near zero exposure to much of anything.
Right now, if you were to ask me, there is a very serious disconnect between the formal, structured tenets of education, and the realities inherent in people and technology. How people learn, why people learn, and what they learn is something we need to devote a lot more attention to than we currently do. **And I have more than a passing interest in this, due to my own life experiences, as well as my professional work educating and mentoring people who are interested in, or who need to use advanced tech. I know a lot about how people learn. Have been doing it for 20+ years.
The single most important factor contributing to the success of those efforts boils down to whether the educator can / will take time to understand the student. If that happens, the learning happens and it's potent, high value. If that does not happen, the learning might still happen, but far more falls onto the student and their will to get through it and succeed.
That basic human work is high value, and it's expensive. We cannot afford to do it for everyone. These kinds of efforts enable people to do it for themselves, working together, alone, in groups, whatever. Where we make that a possibility, we empower people to grow, do, build, play, and that's all good.
And, for some perspective, let's take English. There is the recognized, structured approach, and we know it works for a lot of people. But, given people can learn to read, how does mere exposure to well written English and interaction with the same compare? A lot of great writers will tell you the path is to do a lot of reading and writing and interacting with others doing the same. Having a reader attempt to understand what is written is extremely high value. Stephen King actually tells this story in his book, "On Writing" where his first day with an editor taught him more than he learned in all his school time prior. King, in that same book, also talks about the few thousand story submissions he got rejected, until he finally wrote a hit with, "Carrie" His wife read it, and said he must continue... Notably, King loves writing. There is a common thread here.
Some people work better that way. They need options.
And we should empower them too. Many in education fear this sort of thing. Largely, it's worries over diluting the funds devoted to education, leaving people to educate themselves. And that's a valid concern too. I share it.
However, being one of those "self educated people" for most of my life, it's obvious to me that enabling tech and education access in general, is not mutually exclusive. There isn't "one true way" to get that job done. For the people who love stuff, the single most important thing we can do is make whatever they love accessible to them. Nature plays out from there.
And where we prioritize the "one true way" over anything else, we also insure that job does not get done for fairly large numbers of people too. Net loss.
Secondly, where we do that, we also may well drown out the spark of creativity and will that brings us high value, unique things too.
Now, back to the Pi. Turns out, every single one of those assertions ended up being true! Given access to reasonably accessible technology, people can and will do lots of stuff! Heck, one could say a very significant fraction of the tech industry itself owes a lot to people doing exactly that!
The rational answer to hype is observation, analysis and action.
Mere naysaying as presented here is actually just a different kind of hype, and it's just as useless.
No joke.
Ask Chip about this. He's attended that school of hard knocks and graduated with honors. Doing exactly the sorts of things the Pi people are, that Parallax does today, and that others all over the place are doing.
Many schools are picking up on this dynamic, realizing it's in their best interests to enable people as well as educate them, and have opened up access to all, come all who may. Anyone who actually wants to do something has all they need with some cheap tech and a net connection. Beautiful.
That's what all this stuff is about. Put tools into the hands of people and they do stuff. What they do is up to them. No worries. Just make sure they can do stuff when they are inclined to do it and good things will happen far more than bad things will.
Comments
@Heater
You should have been a lawyer as right or wrong you are willing to defend the innocence of others regardless of the facts presented. I tend to disagree with what you term as fair.
Isn't obvious that this is all a campaign to create demand for the Pi Zero? Also, it is drawing people to visit certain retail outlets, which may result in customers buying something else and more expensive.
Actually there are consumer protections laws against advertising merchandise that is not available at a low price in order to attract shoppers to your store. The illegal practise is termed 'bait and switch'. Still it is very difficult to police and enforce, so the practise still reoccurs. Taiwan's consumer electronics always seem to attempt bait and switch to the extent of displaying an array of lowest priced devices that will never be in stock except samples or empty boxes. Upsizing is a related practise.
++++++++++
And yes, without Wifi or Ethernet there are indeed more attractive devices if you desire to work with available on-line repositories.
Becareful about wifi in Linux -- not all devices are easy to support.
I just had to go shopping for another wifi dongle for my Cubieboard as not all are supported in Linux. And it seems none of the brands will actually tell you which chip is in their product, so you have verify in the internet that your purchase is compatible.
I just purchased D-Link DWA-121 which is supported in Linux and works with the Raspberry Pi and the Cubieboard. The chip is a Realtek 8188CUS (nowhere on the unopened box could I determine that importnant fact.)
http://www.linux-hardware-guide.com/it/2014-06-06-d-link-dwa-121-usb-wifi-802-11n
Back to my Cubieboard, which actually came with a set of cables, a basic safe enclosure, and some versions even comes with a wall wart.
Ray
Before you rush out an buy a Pi Zero or a Raspberry Pi 2 or a Cubieboard...
(BTW, my Cubieboard1 has 1Gbyte of DDR3, a SATA interface, and CIR == yes about $70 USD, not $5 USD. )
NOW...There is the Banana Pi
http://www.bananapi.org/
Or the Orange Pi. (like the Cubieboard, but has a camera interface and wifi onboard - drool But no SATA)
http://www.orangepi.org/
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Orange-pi-2-Beyond-cubieboard-and-pcduino-Compatible-with-banana-pi-pro-and-Raspberry-Pi-2/32303641825.html?af=85386&dp=6378_1448808557_bb5cca735b0a97087b89e3499b38a6ea
Ah yes, a bit of competition is a wonderful thing.
Meanwhile, it seems that Farnell no longer stocks the Pi Zero!!!!!!!!!!
http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&gs=true&st=Pi Zero
Try a database for all that seems available.
http://www.board-db.org/
or Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_single-board_computers
@Loopy, respectfully I have to say that I think you are talking absolute nonsense.
It's long been known your aversion to all things Pi, why I don't know, but please do us a favour and give it a rest.
I wonder what excuse you will come up with when production meets capacity and they are generally available for £4/$5?
I've got no reason to disbelieve what that the Raspberry Pi foundation are telling us because they have a PROVEN TRACK RECORD.
There are many millions of Pi's out there with a lot of them being used to assist in computer education, something the UK in particular has struggled with over the last few years.
This isn't some nefarious organisation as you keep alluding to but a registered charitable organisation whose primary goal is in improving computer education.
I ended up with 3 Pi Zeros and with little effort, I bought one for myself, one for a colleague and one for a friend.
I got two off the magazine cover and the third I bought from Pimoroni for £4, yes, that's right, four British Pounds.
Admittedly the postage was £2.50 but that is the same for all items, even Cubieboard has shipping costs.
So that's three SBC's for less than £20, a bargain in anybody's book.
Now I also have a Pimoroni Propeller Hat, the two in combination will make a great standalone development system, just plug in a HDMI monitor and wireless Keyboard and Mouse Combo.
(I already have the necessary power supply and interface cables so no there is no additional cost for me)
If you are buying a Zero to add WiFi and everything else then you are missing the point, you'd be better off buying a Pi 2 or Cubieboard instead.
This will have more success in standalone applications, it could be used to replace a microcontroller for example, it won't be suitable for all applications but then what is?
The more successful efforts will do exactly that sort of thing. High demand means brisk sales, which means a rapidly growing and active ecosystem, consistent supply commits and all sorts of other good things.
Retailers LOVE IT WHEN PEOPLE BUY MORE.
A hot, cheap item like the Zero is going to get the max attention, and it's due to the fact that the Zero is a hot, cheap item, and people interested in it are extremely likely to be interested in other things related to or associated to it.
The more the merrier too.
You can bet most of those people were happy parting with their money ...money which included some for a Zero as well as some other goodies. Nothing like a sweet deal to put one in the mood to spend a little.
And it's the holiday time! That's just a bonus for the Pi team, who really does know how to knock this stuff out of the park solid. Good on them.
None of this is anything like a bait and switch. That happens when they have no real intention of selling the deep discount item, or they do some nefarious thing to make it difficult for people in the hopes of selling them other stuff.
This?
Nah, it's just a rush on a cheap, hot thing that has been well positioned, marketed, released, promoted, and distributed for maximum retail / online sales impact. You are looking at the work of a team who knows what they are doing, not some evil group hell bent on ripping people off.
Your comments seem a bit like sour grapes to me. "How come people aren't as excited about this other thing??"
Want a hint?
That other thing, whatever it is, doesn't hit a price sweet spot, may not have the feature set that is most compelling for the dollars and the masses, is extremely likely not to have been released by a team who is savvy enough to compete with the Pi people, etc...
I can see all that from a mile away. "Cubie what?"
Seriously.
The difference seen here is a very nice, potent demonstration of just how much value marketing, positioning, planning, distribution, and all that other "business" and "sales" stuff actually can have on the overall impact and value perception of a product.
Had a totally non-technical friend bring the Zero up today. "A COMPUTER FOR $5!" They know what a Zero is, and they wanted to know if they can hook it up to their TV and do stuff. (yes, with a few odd and ends, some of which you might have laying around...)
I can't even begin to explain what a Propeller or even Cubie board is to them.
That's what the Pi people understand that most of the others out there really don't. This isn't about us, or people like us. It's all about kids, and other people, who might want to take a little step toward being like us, or just doing stuff, making things, playing games, etc...
The Pi has a killer ecosystem around it. People of all kinds doing stuff on a Pi. Perfect. That's why the Zero is hot. It's a cheaper entry into that same ecosystem. Heck, buy a 5 pack of the things and treat them exactly like those CPU chips in the plastic tube. No Joke.
As has been said, and is easily google-able, RPi foundation does pretty much meet their targets as far as pricing is concerned.
If anything, I expect the initial run was rushed a bit to capitalize on the holiday market and get some free buzz/PR to carry into the new year.
Over 5 Million RPi's sold to enthusiast and kids across the world for $25-35.
Significant effortexpense to bundle their own distro along with various others.
They've now introduced something similar to the RPi I, that costs 20% of the original.
Next year I wouldn't be surprised if they are able to do something similar for the RPI 2, maybe at $10 ?
RPi isn't making any extra money on this, however some of their marketers and regular Joe's recognize there is a supple-demand potential here and are acting upon it. A lot of Black Friday and Cyber Monday stuff ends up on CL/eBay too.
How/why is RPi being sneaky or taking advantage of anyone here?
No one's arm is being twisted to buy one of these. Well, aside from now making something cheap enough to make one think before going with a uC in some instances.
I'm not sure if you are really getting what is happening here.
The holy grail for everyone and their brother for the past 2 decades has been ultra-small, ultra-cheap computers, preferably Linux.
Now its here, though a few warts still remain.
Potatohead,
Exactly.
Also, the RPi and RPi 2 successes are what allowed them to go ahead with the Zero don't forget.
And while I'm not thrilled that RPi didn't add SATA to the RPi 2 a la Bannana and Orange Pi's, it apparently isn't yet much of a killer considering how poorly the copy-cats have done even though they've added it.
In general, the people I've seen dismiss the RPi ( as I did initially) have done so because it wasn't an actual desktop replacement. No SATA, no WiFi, no GB enet, etc.
Or they had a Beaglebone or other system dev/SOC-type board and couldn't just live and let live...
I've got a spare junker USB2 hub and wifi laying around. I can set this up with TinyCore 50-75MB OS all in RAM, and finally make my internet radio kit to install in a nice retro-radio for $5 real cost.
LOL, man, talk about a portable computer....
No it is not "...obvious that this is all a campaign to create demand for the Pi Zero?".
A couple of guys at the Pi Foundation put together this Pi variant. With an impossibly low target price in mind. Got 10,000 of them made. And then announced it. There was no campaign, not even a single word that anything new was coming.
With 7 million Pi owners in the world there was no need for any campaign to spark demand.
I'm starting to think that some Americans are so brain washed by the capitalist agenda they are immersed in since birth that they become highly suspicious of anyone doing anything that is not self centred and driven by the profit motive. They just can't understand that there may be motives other than money. Like doing things for the common good. Or heck, just having fun with a community of like minded people.
Fun is profit in my book.
I was thinking that the Pi Zero would be a good match for the Hackable Badge, but I think maybe the $9 CHIP would be a better match, depending on the size of the board. The built in WiFi would be the difference that I am looking at.
Ray
To those that are above reproach, there should be no worry. But I have gotten very strong rhetorical shaming from the Raspberry Pi side of this since the beginning rather than objective discussion or disclosure. Sales success is just simply the wrong measure of educational value. And there approach to education on the Raspberry Pi from the beginning has been to expect teachers and schools to fall into line just because it is the cheapest and smallest. But the device initally requires HDMI or conversion to VGA, and another computer for cross-compling. It may actually cost more to deploy because it is the smallest and cheapest.
1. There have always been alternatives to the Raspberry Pi in the SoC boards with Linux that offered a more sensible design and possibly a better value even though they were not the smallest nor the cheapest.
Orange Pi seems to currently be very attractive as an alternative, Cubieboard is just my personal alternative that came out a few months after the Raspberry Pi.
2. Using an educational non-profit approach to brand creation is dubious at best. The US is chock full of non-profit foundations that mostly benefit the salaries staff while claiming a noble mission.... all prefectly legal. But this is a sophisticated effort to create a brand in direct competition with Parallax. So why should I welcome their promotional buzz here without lampooning it. Ardiuno founders did the same and even started out their campaign expressing hopes to put Parallax out of business.
3. Selling 7,000,000 million units has really very little to do with children or education. It has to do with marketing and promotion. And Raspberry Pi seems to have use the Parallax Forums to drive those sales numbers.
4. While I really like Linux, it seems to add a lot of extra burden to new users of any age that want to learn to electronics and microcontrollers. Also, Linux has LInux User Groups that already provide educational support in many places.
5. There is nothing wrong with Broadcomm ARM SoCs or Linux.
What puts me off is the brand creation.
Many would love to be part of the upper management of an organization such as Raspberry Pi (the non-profit foundation and/or the for-profit trading company), the benefits must be better than being a member of unversity faculty.
But educators that work in university settings generally accept less material rewards because they feel that are really contributing to society.
Yes it is all perfect legal, and it is good capitalism. But is this really the direction that education should go? I personally don't thing so.
Wow! Just wow!
I'll not waste any more time on you.
I'll just be safe in the knowledge that my 12 year old son is currently being taught computer programming in school, and on a Raspberry Pi.
Whereas my 18 year old daughter, who missed the Pi was taught ICT Skills, which basically means she can do a mean Excel, Word or Power Point.
I know which I'd rather have and which will benefit the kids and ultimately the country more.
Not bad from an organisation who are carrying out, as you say, "a sophisticated effort to create a brand in direct competition with Parallax."
What's up? You are clearly trying to wind us up. Or you have no clue about what you speak.
We have been through all this before here I'm not about to start again.
But please stop slandering the Raspberry Pi Foundation as if it's members and volunteers
were profiteering out of it. "Good capitalism" indeed, good grief.
I agree. I'm still just plain miffed regarding the missed chance from Micro Center. I've since told Adafruit to remind me when they get more.
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Erco? I see your wandering robot landed where he lives and is now throwing snowballs at the passing cars.
I have never been to the U.K. and haven't been back to the USA since about 2002 - so I've no idea what the Raspberry Pi Foundation has been doing in those places. Nonetheless, the Raspberry Pi Foundation seems to have its major educational focus in the U.K.
There are other approaches to computer education. Ken Gracey spent years personally visiting schools in the U.S to support education via the BasicStamp. And Parallax has offered quantity discounts to schools as long as I recall. And the same has evolved for the Propeller. Andy Lindsay, who wrote the BasicStamp2 manual has an education background.
Teaching LInux rather than Unix is a good thing. But any old Excel machine is capable of being re-purposed for Linux.
Raspberry Pi depends on extremely high volumes of sales, so it works with retailers and distributor channels that create the environment you are experiencing. It is a consumer product first and an educational product second. If it were the other way around, it would be taking purchase orders of Pi Zeros in unlimited quantities from school districts rather than selling the first on for $5 and any more for $9.99.
Think about it. Where is the discount channel for bulk school orders in their distribution network? I doesnt' seem to exist as of yet.
OK, I'll take the bait:
I may have said something about "good capitalism" as opposed to the "bad capitalism" you keep hinting at. Perhaps true. So what? How do you expect a hand full of people in the UK to cover the world? None the less, the materials they produce are no doubt available to anyone as is the Pi itself. No doubt. But be sure the Pi people get around schools, and have backgrounds in education. True but irrelevant. The Pi was designed to be small and cheap so that every kid could have one, hack it at home, break it, do what they like. Like we did with Sinclair Spectrums and C64's as kids. Platforms that inspired a lot of that generation to pursue engineering careers.
Giant, busted old PC's, with a Linux install disk do not fit the bill. No, it does not. When the Pi was created and launched it was expect that they might sell a few
thousands or perhaps tens of thousands, ever. Nobody expected the exponential growth in demand that followed. Wrong in so many ways. Anyone would be stupid to manufacture unlimited quantities of devices at launch. What if it turns out nobody wants one? If the demand is there they will get made, as they have demonstrated spectacularly well over the years since the Pi came out. Think about it. How can you offer discount on a device you are already providing at the lowest
possible price you can manage?
I have yet to hear of schools complaining they cannot get what they want. Have you?
Aside: I was just today accused of being "off my rocker" on the Pi forum after I replying to a young chap who wanted to learn some assembler. I suggested he might have fun and an easier time learning assembler for the Propeller. Why "off my rocker"? Because Parallax boards are so ridiculously expensive. Luckily there is the Pimoroni Propeller board for the Pi that is only £10
To my surprise, when I added (2) propeller HATs to my cart, they were only £8.33 each; (2) boards shipped to the U.S. for less than $32 !
This is now the cheapest prop board available, and soon we'll be able to add a $20 remote prop plug to the order ($5 Pi Zero + $7 WiFi dongle + $2 USB adapter + $6 SD card) that happens to be a very capable embedded Linux computer.
I have high hopes for the C.H.I.P., but I doubt it will have a propeller HAT available for it anytime soon, especially at these giveaway prices.
I am not going to draw out a long debate. But I will assert that having an opposing opinion about the Raspberry Pi is not necessarily a bad thing. There are and were things they did poorly - like inadequate power to the USB ports on the first board. 600ma may drive the CPU but the keyboard and mouse need another 500ma each.
My 'problems' began when I found that an opposing opinion wasn't tolerated and rather than rebut with query and fact, I just consitently getting barraged with 'it is for the kids' and a lot of 'shame on you'. (I am still getting that and yet I strongly supect more sales have gone to enthusiast than children in an educational setting.)
+++++++++++++++
I guess you don't comprehend what a purchase order is.
It is like crowd sourcing. You collect a big pile of purchase orders, then go to the bank for funding and run your production to fill the orders. School districts can issue purchase orders. So can any company.
So it seems to me.. $5 is the defacto discount price (at one per customer), $9.99 seems to be somewhere closer to the retail price. I still think unlimited $5 unit price for schools would be more in line with their mission and the rest of us just pay $9.99. Schools could pass through the savings to students, and huge shipping costs per unit would be abated by bulk orders. This used to be the way businesses normally did things, before internet promotions.
In the original crowd sourcing, we had a choice to buy two and the Raspberry Pi Foundation promised it would deliver one to a worthy child. It could have just as easily offered 2 for the price of one to all volume purchases by schools to acomplish this in a more direct fashion. How did they fill their commitment to deliver those? I've never been able to verify what was done.
+++++++++++++
Actually, after thinking a bit... I do have to concede that in one way the Raspberry Pi is a very good thing for education. It has taken away schools being pushed into Microsoft or Apple platform, which are quite expensive to the educational instituition.
I just have never seen how to cheaply resolve the HDMI monitor interface without Raspberry Pi producing a simple VGA adapter that connects to GPIO (and they haven't to my knowledge). My HDMI to VGA adapter cost roughly $25, as much as the first Raspberry Pi. So it seemed the hidden costs to schools would be multiples of the cost of the Raspberry Pi.
Second, Linux does indeed open up the educational courses to more computer fundamentals just because everything is open source. Teachers are free to expand curriculum in many directions without having to plead funding for more software licenses.
In the long run, those facts are extremely redeeming when weighed against the heavy promotional hype. I'm a believer in Linux being more educationally empowering because it is open-sourced.
I still reserve the right to not use or like Raspberry Pi products, and I think that if Eben Upton was really the educational visionary that all the promotion claims, he would not be working in the for-profit Raspberry Pi Trading side and for Broadcom. He'd be directly developing the educational infrastructure of the Raspberry Pi Foundation. The fact that he quit the foundation board and went to Broadcomm seemed to be a legal defensive moved to put all the early promotion decisions far in the remote past.
The other side of this has been that this is a Parallax Forum and you and others that pushed the Raspberry Pi have taken advantage of a very generous host to establish a competative brand. So I simply pushed back. Arduino and the TI430 have taken similar liberties.
I suppose I am simply jaded by the fact that so many have previously claimed the educational value of their computer platform or application to parents and failed to deliver.
So much depends on Raspberry Pi Foundation having an enduring follow through. The hardware simply could have been a bit less rushed and better. Education rarely gets good results from being overrun by promotional hype.
He sees a minor league type of self-serving behavior and or hypocrisy in the branding and overall attention the Pi is getting coupled with some profit.
First, the foundation is operating to get Pi computers into peoples hands cheap. That, right there, is an educational goal. They are reinvesting regularly to improve the computers too. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. If they didn't make some to reinvest, they wouldn't continue on their mission.
Others, selling into education, are making a profit, and some of that might be seen as excessive and counter to the "into peoples hands for cheap"
Yeah, maybe. I've seen lots of kitters selling things out there for a fair amount of money. A blinker LED kit could be $15, and people who don't know much, will pay it. But, they will have had a fun time and learned some stuff too. No real harm there. And if they did learn, they can build a few blinkies for that same $15 later on their own too. Net gain.
Sadly loopy, the world runs on money and the majority of the world is capitalist, or very seriously underdeveloped. Branding linked to education is one way to be very successful in the cause of education.
The purists are going to be lost in the noise, and that sucks for them, but one must then evaluate what is worth what?
Stay pure and be ignored by all but a few like minded people? Griping about the ugly nature of it all the whole time?
Or, get after it, and be successful in educating and empowering the masses?
The Pi people have made that evaluation with stellar results. "Cubie what?" maybe could learn a few things, or maybe it's worth it to respect how they have evaluated what is worth what?
So now we know. Thanks Loopy. You really won't benefit much from the ongoing complaints and attempts to marginalize this stuff. It's great you've chosen a more purist type path. Just give others the same respect you are getting and realize they will have chosen a different path to their goals.
The sum of your objections is really down to, "doing it that way is icky" and great!
So noted.
Now, we can move on to tech and what people do with it, what we can learn about all of that, and what we do with it.
That is, in fact, what we are all here for. I'm quite sure Parallax would agree entirely.
And, remember, what is worth what? Ask our friends here what success means to their families and ability to bring new things to their fans / followers / customers.
Way of the world buddy. There are many days I wish it were a bit different, but it's just not. Being a realist and a pragmatist, I'm gonna roll with it and maximize my time and opportunity here. You are free to do it differently, of course.
Yes! Learning assembler on it is one of the high value adds that warrant the price Parallax needs to charge.
This again, is what is worth what?
Most people have some entertainment dollars and they spend them every month. Entertainment is a constant need for nearly all peeps. Movies, games, hobbies, etc...
If learning assembler is "fun", then the cost of a Prop isn't all that high relative to say, a new video game that runs you $60, with additional downloadable bits taking the whole experience to say, $100 over time.
A new game can deliver 20-100 hours of entertainment.
I would argue that learning assembler can deliver 20-100 hours of entertainment.
It is this kind of thing that allows the Propeller and Parallax to exist.
Rather than harp on things, it's better to realize why people do what they do and a big part of that is how they evaluate what is worth what?
I consider the Propeller cheap. It's very high bang for the buck. The only thing even close is getting old computers off e-bay to learn and tinker / hack on. A good setup on one of those is a couple hundred dollars, and a lot of time, if you were not there in the 80's. I was, so retro makes great sense for me.
But, it won't make great sense for somebody who doesn't understand the old stuff. Enter the Propeller! For under $100, you are in, programming, doing retro class stuff, learning a ton, making your gadgets go, and you buy into a great group of people, who are very interested in seeing what you do and helping you do it.
Heck of a deal.
You can take "retro" and "simple" out of it, move one layer up in the computing world, and plug the Pi into the same statements. Hell of a deal compared to just about anything else you can find that can run Linux and do stuff people might want to do.
Re: Consumer and educational product.
Here is what the Pi people didn't know. It blindsided them along with many others. The Pi is both an educational thing AND a consumer thing.
Turns out many consumers will drop $100 on some vision they have or thing they want to do. Movie player, robot mover, portable computer thing, etc... Ordinary consumers kind of like a little toy they can play with that is low risk, sort of disposable and reasonably simple.
Who would have thought?
Nobody, until we saw the masses buying the Pi and doing all sorts of stuff with it.
Now we know that's true. Others can learn from the Pi Foundation and do well. As they should, and if they do heed those market lessons, we will be better off with more toys to choose from and more friends to meet and do stuff with.
No more complicated than that. Really.
There is no conspiracy, there is no corruption, no secret agenda, or anything like that. Just an accidental home run. The market, which is people with money to spend, told is loudly that things like the Pi are very welcome and in high demand.
Even that market didn't know, until they did. And they did when the right thing comes along.
Woz found that out with the Apple 2, as did Tandy, Atari, Commodore, Sinclair, Acorn, et al.
When stuff like the Pi happens, it's a good thing. We all learn something good, and that makes opportunity for some of us, fun for a lot of us, options for those of us who need it. Beautiful when it happens.
Long ago, a young Spud was living in poverty.* The visions for cheap computers came along at just the right time. And that young Spud jumped on the train and rode it for all it's worth. Today, that same kind of thing can happen with the stuff you find in the dumpster and local thrifty store, or brand new with a Pi, cheap enough that nearly anyone who wants one can get one.
*I write that with pride actually. I had a freaking great time growing up. Was a little hungry once in a while, but I was otherwise free to learn, play, do, build, etc... Looking back, I was a lucky kid. My family didn't have much, but I was born in a wealthy place willing to throw away enough for people to build a life on.
These Pi type things are close to my heart for that reason. Cheap, ubiquitous, powerful. Hope they make millions and millions. An entire world will benefit, one Spud at a time attending the school of hard knocks.
Want to talk about education. Well, there you go. That's how I see it, up front and personal. No joke.
Here's the other lesson I got out of that at a very early age. Purity is a luxury. Wealthy people can choose purity and do so with relative impunity. They have means and that typically means they have time and money, but it could just be a lot of time too. Time is the mark of wealth. When you have it, you are wealthy.
I had time as a kid. Lots of it. I was wealthy. And that is why I often write "poverty", because we didn't have much money, but it also really didn't matter, so long as there was time and some spark to go do stuff with that time.
When people write about education, they very often forget the "has time, but no money" use case. But that's exactly the kind of use case things like the Pi, and early 8 bit computers, have in common. Ordinary people can get one, and go on to do amazing things. It's enabling tech, and enabling is as much of a part of education as any lofty, pure, citadel of academia is.
Again, no joke. I'm dead serious.
I don't like this world much for the ugly artifacts of capitalism and corruption. But, I do like this world a lot for some other nice artifacts of the same.
What is worth what?
That is the life question. Some of us got forced to think about that at age 10. Others may never actually have to consider it.
Loopy, take some of this and think hard about it. A lot of your comments make very little sense, and I've put some of why that is and how it matters as much as anything matters. Perspective man. Get some. Hopefully, I've put a little here, food for your thoughts.
Parallax is a much smaller business than the Raspberry Pi in terms of sales volume. It too has an educational mission.
Please see my previous post. I do admit that learning Linux on a Raspberry Pi is an advancement in early computer education. But this is a Parallax hosted forum and Raspberry Pi promotions are invassive.
Parallax currently has a sale of 35% off everything through 11/30/15 Please consider supporting them as well.
Well, I've had my say... I am giving yours a thoughtful read. I really don't desire to put everyone in an uproar.
A. I too think the Propeller is an excellent value. One of the best around.
B. But I had doubts from the beginning about quality of engineering of Raspberry Pis, so I went to something different. They seem to win on price point and smallness.
Which is better for education? Nobody knows for sure. It's the teachers that really prove that.
While I am now using a Pi2 as my primary computer, my foremost interest in the Pi is as an extension for my prop projects. I will buy, use, and sell *more* propeller chips/boards because of the way the Pi extends the prop's capabilities in a way that is much easier and more powerful than trying to implement all of that functionality directly on the prop. Without the Pi, many of my prop projects would never get done; I may never even attempt some of them.
To my knowledge, I have never used a Pi in place of a prop; they are simply not interchangeable, except perhaps for blinking an LED. Having said that, I can see that they could be competitive for education and entertainment, but in my case, they have increased both of these by being used together.
As far as engineering quality, again, evaluate what is worth what? Given the low failure rates, I would say the Pi engineering is solid. Goals were set, engineers met them at the price points also set, done, next.
Over engineering is as big of a sin as incompetent engineering is.
The Pi people did not over engineer much at all. Given their stated goals, I'm not sure anything negative can really be said about the engineering. It's competent and the product is successful.
Anything else is actually questioning the goals, not the engineering.
You've made your questions about the goals quite clear. They can point to a lot of success and ask, "so what?"
Indeed. As have many of us.
See how that works Loopy?
You might like the VoCore even better... very tiny headless Linux device has wifi, LAN, and more. The serial port will connect to and program a Propeller.
Uses OpenWrt Linux and opkg repositories.
http://vocore.io/
http://vocore.io/store/index
I do support Parallax and have done for more than 8 years.
I have sold many hundreds of Propeller based products around the world and have several product lines in production that are sold every week.
I do not publicise/sell them on here because they are for a very specialist market, the nature of my business is in security.
Whilst I will never do high volume sales I do my bit to contribute to the Parallax coffers, never mind all the protoboards and such like I have also purchased over the years.
I don't think anyone is promoting the Pi ahead of Propeller, you've got that wrong.
If anything the Pi is a compliment to a Propeller and vice versa, should we not be free to explore those possibilities at least!
This is the General Discussions forum and as far as I am aware nothing in this thread is in violation of the forum guidelines so we are free to carry on in this vein, if you don't like it then don't read it.
Actually, I am listening and good points are being made in defense of the Pi.
I simply found the original crowd funding offensive on the Parallax Forums and people making claims that were quite speculative about how it might be educational.
I have taught English in Taiwan for 20 years and have seen a tremendous amount of hype in English language education come and go. My impression of the Raspberry Pi is that it was likely to be something similar in computer education. The realities of loading the Raspberry Pi with Linux in the intial product seemed to me to be expecting too much from teachers, young students or parents.
Assertions were made that just made little sense about what kids might do, like developing sophisticated video games.
Had Eben Upton not pushed and pushed to get the original Pi out, my Son would be most likely being 'educated' on Excel, Word and PowerPoint by now.
Instead he is excited by the likes of Scratch and the API programming of Minecraft, all without any influence from me.
Slowly he is beginning to understand about logic and programming, the same goes for his peers.
Surely that is a positive result?
There are a lot more.
Know what Loopy? I think I just might shoot every single one of your exceptions down. Let's get it done. I'm game. Maybe this is a good thing.
Heck, long ago, tons of us were reading program listings out of magazines in the grocery store, typing in programs, and making 8 bit computers do stuff. I, along with a few friends, got my first assembler that way. Typed it in from COMPUTE! magazine, and proceeded to write 6502 assembly, having learned some of it from the ROM listings and mini-assembler in the Apple 2. We were told we were crazy, until we were not. That happened about the time we started making those machines really do stuff. One educator back then got it. He saw what was happening, took us aside, and basically said, "let's go for it!" No formal curriculum. Just books, group work, mentoring, projects, access to stuff. We made games, wrote programs for the school, sounds, learned assembly language, etc... I ended up teaching LOGO and PASCAL for my Senior project. Wrote the whole course over the summer. That guy asked me to. Why? Because he thought I might actually get it done.
I make a good living doing adult education today. Funny how that kind of empowerment and education can work, isn't it? And I'm not so special. Rather ordinary actually. I just love this stuff. This kind of thing is happening all over the place and it's happening on Propeller, Pi, Linux, and all sorts of things.
Honestly, I think you vastly underestimate what people can / will do. See the second video? That's Dad, who seems to be jazzed up on the Pi, doing computer stuff with kids.
I've brought some people into programming with Propeller too. SPIN is stupid easy, as is PASM. Worth every penny. Once people start to write code, you never know what they can / will do. It's a lot like watching people with Legos actually. Ever see somebody get it, and then just build this monster thing?
Yeah, code works the same way. A little kid, who gets it, might just pour a month into some project and that's enough time to do something significant.
Here's another one: Some time back, Android tablets were delivered to a village in Ethiopia. They just dropped 'em off, and they put monitoring software on them to observe what functionally illiterate people would do with advanced technology. This village had near zero exposure to much of anything.
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/506466/given-tablets-but-no-teachers-ethiopian-children-teach-themselves/
Pretty amazing, isn't it?
Right now, if you were to ask me, there is a very serious disconnect between the formal, structured tenets of education, and the realities inherent in people and technology. How people learn, why people learn, and what they learn is something we need to devote a lot more attention to than we currently do. **And I have more than a passing interest in this, due to my own life experiences, as well as my professional work educating and mentoring people who are interested in, or who need to use advanced tech. I know a lot about how people learn. Have been doing it for 20+ years.
The single most important factor contributing to the success of those efforts boils down to whether the educator can / will take time to understand the student. If that happens, the learning happens and it's potent, high value. If that does not happen, the learning might still happen, but far more falls onto the student and their will to get through it and succeed.
That basic human work is high value, and it's expensive. We cannot afford to do it for everyone. These kinds of efforts enable people to do it for themselves, working together, alone, in groups, whatever. Where we make that a possibility, we empower people to grow, do, build, play, and that's all good.
And, for some perspective, let's take English. There is the recognized, structured approach, and we know it works for a lot of people. But, given people can learn to read, how does mere exposure to well written English and interaction with the same compare? A lot of great writers will tell you the path is to do a lot of reading and writing and interacting with others doing the same. Having a reader attempt to understand what is written is extremely high value. Stephen King actually tells this story in his book, "On Writing" where his first day with an editor taught him more than he learned in all his school time prior. King, in that same book, also talks about the few thousand story submissions he got rejected, until he finally wrote a hit with, "Carrie" His wife read it, and said he must continue... Notably, King loves writing. There is a common thread here.
Some people work better that way. They need options.
And we should empower them too. Many in education fear this sort of thing. Largely, it's worries over diluting the funds devoted to education, leaving people to educate themselves. And that's a valid concern too. I share it.
However, being one of those "self educated people" for most of my life, it's obvious to me that enabling tech and education access in general, is not mutually exclusive. There isn't "one true way" to get that job done. For the people who love stuff, the single most important thing we can do is make whatever they love accessible to them. Nature plays out from there.
And where we prioritize the "one true way" over anything else, we also insure that job does not get done for fairly large numbers of people too. Net loss.
Secondly, where we do that, we also may well drown out the spark of creativity and will that brings us high value, unique things too.
Now, back to the Pi. Turns out, every single one of those assertions ended up being true! Given access to reasonably accessible technology, people can and will do lots of stuff! Heck, one could say a very significant fraction of the tech industry itself owes a lot to people doing exactly that!
The rational answer to hype is observation, analysis and action.
Mere naysaying as presented here is actually just a different kind of hype, and it's just as useless.
No joke.
Ask Chip about this. He's attended that school of hard knocks and graduated with honors. Doing exactly the sorts of things the Pi people are, that Parallax does today, and that others all over the place are doing.
Many schools are picking up on this dynamic, realizing it's in their best interests to enable people as well as educate them, and have opened up access to all, come all who may. Anyone who actually wants to do something has all they need with some cheap tech and a net connection. Beautiful.
That's what all this stuff is about. Put tools into the hands of people and they do stuff. What they do is up to them. No worries. Just make sure they can do stuff when they are inclined to do it and good things will happen far more than bad things will.