I love these stories from Cuba. Just shows how resourceful, imaginative and creative humans can be when they have to. Like the stories from East Germany and places in the 1980's when they had to smuggle in an build their own 8 bit computers. Not like the lazy, entitlement generation we see in the western world today.
However, whether its Windows or Linux, having a default install in the GB's just seems crazy for what the 'average' person wants to do.
On the plus side, I figured out my TinyCore problem, and have to say this Linux thing is... interesting.
I've got the 78MB full Core option running in memory, and it is stupid fast.
Can't recall which DE I've got, FluxBox maybe, however this may just shut me up for a while...
Tons and tons of code for services, libraries I don't need, missing.
Potential security holes from the above, missing
Able to load the -entire- OS into RAM, priceless!
Not sure how small LFS gets... oh 10MB, or 8?
Sigh... I guess I may have to look into learning Linux after all.
Unless I can get the Embedded OpenBSD working....
Hei, they closed down the other interesting thread on this topic. It's odd to pose a yay/nay question on a topic and then close the thread down when any nay comments come in. You would think there had been some insult to peoples preferred prophet or God or their mothers. Nothing bad happened, only an exchange of views regarding a corporation and it's products. Why that provokes such a violent reaction I don't begin to understand. Ah well, it happens on other forums regarding the same topic as well.
Is it my imagination or is there an increasing intolerance to debate on this forum? I don't recall such a lot of thread sinking/closing going on in years past. Even when things did ramble on forever and go way off topic.
Anyway, on to more pleasant things...
I don't worry about the Gigabytes installed by default, as long as it does not take all day to download. Most basic installations can still be done from half a CD's worth, not bad. Those tons of code for libraries and service are not a worry, they just sit there on disk unless I make use of them.
Tinycore sounds interesting. If I could get Chrome, Atom and node.js running on it that would be most of what I need from day to day. Then add SimpleIDE, PropellerIDE, BST, and a few other tools. Might make a useful boot from USB stick system to use wherever you go. I wonder it can be built for ARM, the Raspi say?
I don't recall how big a minimal LFS system was, it was many years ago that I was into that. I recall it was a bit of a giggle to run GUI apps with no window manager. There they are on screen with no boarder, no menu, no close, minimize or maximize buttons. Sweet.
I closed that thread in a very calm happy manner! The OP had twice stated he'd had enough of the discussion, and sought assistance. The OP felt the discussion had gone on long enough I guess, and I must admit I agree.
This is a Parallax Forum, and whilst it might be interesting to share some brief anecdotes on general and/or topical subjects, - life starts to become less productive when a 45 page thread appears, seems to keep growing, rolling over and over the same gripes and opinions and getting no-where, just burning valuable creative time!
Topics which are clearly not anything to do with Parallax or fun electronics projects are always going to reach an endpoint (or a borepoint) at some stage- and as you rightly note, on most any forum too!
I'd hope we could all agree- we'd rather read about fun projects and interesting electronics ideas and acheivements! Something engaging; something positive to boost and inspire the future Heaters in this world
Let's talk about what we can do, what we'd like to do- and not about what someone else can't do or hasn't done.
Thanks for you explanation. Of course I agree and disagree, it's all a matter of degree. If I can put it that way.
Applying your same reasoning and value judgement to this thread clearly it should also be closed and erco issued a warning about starting multiple, inflammatory threads on the same subject that is not Parallax related.
No, I don't think that should actually happen.
It's not clear to me that the initiator of a thread "owns" it. In the sense of dictating when it has gone on long enough, should be closed or sunk or whatever. Surely all the contributors own it just as much if not more so? Perhaps this should be spelled out in the forum guidelines.
Clearly there is an infinity of topics that are way out of scope for a Parallax forum, politics, religion, sexual orientation, Arduino, favourite ice cream flavour, etc etc
On the other hand there is an ocean of marginally related topics, operating systems, programming languages, software licensing, etc etc that have nothing to do with Parallax or it's products directly but deserve a voice. Pushing the boundaries can have positive results. Like the emergence of cross platform Open Source tools for the Propeller, prop-gcc, openspin, SimpleIDE, PropellerIDE...none of that was Parallax specific back in the day.
I like debates here to be conducted with a sense of fun and curiosity. For example we have the "Official JavaScript War Thread". Lot's of scope for bitching and mud throwing there, all in good humour. I hope. And with a lot of interesting ideas on all sides of the debate.
I should have been more explicit. It is the criticism of exactly MS, it's business practices, and/or it's products that somehow causes people to lose their sense of humour, start taking it personally, charging the speaker with saying things he did not and getting very agitated and aggressive. This is very sad I and I have no idea why it happens.
My apologies to anyone who may have been offended by my inept phrasing of my arguments. No offence intended.
Not to be sucked into a long running (nor any running) debate on this, I might just say that the MS thing is not such a conspiracy from my perspective at least. Simply I'd say there were probably too many threads about similar topics, and they kinda swamped the overall look and feel of this non-MS forum a bit!
That JWT you mention does click along, and perhaps a single "MS place in electronics" type thread might also find longevity. But to have threads titled for "bashing" and complaining is not, I'd hope, really what the general public wants to see. Amusing sure for a few people and for a few days, but not a long term positive thing here.
Not speaking for Parallax, but a thread on members favourite ice-cream flavours needn't be such a bad thing either. I'd vote! But I'd think these fun topics should be in the minority? Or at least short lived? We break for tea, have some fun, then get back to work?
Just my Sunday afternoon thoughts. I'll sign off this thread here and leave you to ponder your favourite flavour and carry otherwise on where you left off before by interruptions!
I think it is perfectly valid to close a thread that wanders too far off topic.
And I am trying to stay on topic, but failing badly herein -=- nothing about Window 10
If I find myself participating in too many threads that are closed for this reason, I take a look at what I have contributed to getting them closed versus what informative and useful content was desired. Some threads are all wrong from their beginning -- maybe this one.
Others have destructive contributors.
Maybe we should have a Hall of Shame listing the top 5 participants in in Closed Threads. There are simply some that think the forum is all about their opinions, not adding useful facts to the threads designated purpose.
+++++++++
Obvious having said that, it is all off the topic of this thread... Bashing Windows 10. So it seems I am contradicting myself.
But I certainly wasn't the one that initially complained about Closing the related thread. That is really where getting off the topic began. Another thread should have been opened about Closing Thread Policy.
I am just begging people to try to improve the quality of their contributions to the Parallax Forums and not impulsively editorialize on every thread. Find a project and collaborate rather than rant about the state of the world.
All good fun for a rest break from hacking code or wielding the soldering iron.
So, following the advice of the famous Bob Pease who said: “My favorite programming language is solder”, I will now get back to my soldering iron. Perhaps the result will show up here as a thread at some point soon.
[quote="Heater.;1341116"
Tinycore sounds interesting. If I could get Chrome, Atom and node.js running on it that would be most of what I need from day to day. Then add SimpleIDE, PropellerIDE, BST, and a few other tools. Might make a useful boot from USB stick system to use wherever you go. I wonder it can be built for ARM, the Raspi say?
[/quote]
TinyCore has a RPi forum, quite a few posts in it too.
Thats one of the reasons I want a slimmed down OS as well.
And to keep it on-topic, this is way smaller than W10.
I think there is a fair bit of whining and complaining on all sides.
On the one hand 2 threads were opened with the express purpose of bashing W10 or polling for fanboys.
Then, when one thread gets heated and 'divergent', somehow one person can ask that it be shut down.
Even if I started a thread that somehow ended up growing a life of its own, I'd consider myself a party-pooper if I ran to Mom and Dad and asked them to send everyone home.
I understand Erco's frustration, however once you open a public thread, you shouldn't be able take your ball and go home. Other people have invested time and effort into the thread as well.
Considering the real invasion of Privacy that was uncovered, even I as a MS-friendly sort can see where Linux almost had to rear its ugly head in the discussion. Thats why I'm not installing W10.
In this instance, I have to say Heater was not the first person to reference Linux, and as I re-read the thread, simply responded to it. I've complained a bit to Heater when he's brought up Linux out of thin air, and I believe he's not really doing that much anymore, which I am sure is hard
However maybe Parallax should institute more draconian punishments for everyone going off-topic in the slightest way.
What say, 1-day Ban for first offence, 1-week for second, 1-month for third?
Then maybe we can spice things up give virtual awards to those who are able to notify Mods of offenders first?
/sarcasm
The forums are generally civil, limited cursing, and on-point wrt threads and discussions.
I salute VonSzarvas for locking the other thread instead of sinking it.
Though again, every other forum out there seems to have realized sometimes you CAN just leave one thread open for general batching and complaining, and it helps those who need to vent be directed easily.
It does? Where? I managed to find some old posts about on the Pi forums, that's all.
...once you open a public thread, you shouldn't be able take your ball and go home
Ha, yes. "Mommy, the boys in the play ground are saying bad things. Make them stop."
I raised this point with VonSzarvas above, not sure what the policy on thread "ownership" is yet.
Mostly this is the most well behaved, orderly, instructive, educational and inspiring forums on the internet. At least as far as I have found so far. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
Maybe we should have a Hall of Shame listing the top 5 participants in in Closed Threads.
Great idea.
Can we also put miscreants in the stocks in the village square and throw rotten vegetables at them? Also that business about drowning witches was fun. Edgar Hoovers persecution of suspected communists was very popular. The modern day political correctness persecutions are a gas too (Google Brendan Eich)
In general let's just hang, decapitate, burn, poison (Socrates) anyone speaking out of place.
Yeah, OK, I'm being a little bit over dramatic. Maybe I should just say "No, that is a terrible idea"
Gawk.... what have I done?
Though I mainly use 'that other OS', I retain the copies of Windows that came with the machines by a dual boot set up.
Having spent 24 hours on running my netbook in updates for its Windows7, I went ballistic at all the waiting -- but I finally got a clean bill of health.
That allowed me to load Lattice Diamond IDE. I was simply wary that a nice proprietary FPGA company wasn't going to give me full support in that 'other OS'. (Altera Quartus II seems to want me to buy Fedora. These guys in chip development conspire to sell you a proprietary OS.)
++++++++++
Now I had turned to cleaning up my mainstay - and Intel Quad 64bit machine and need to resize the partitions in that 'other OS'. But having Windows Vista on the machine means that all partition changes have to go through Windows or it will shut me out ... maybe forever.
Happily I located FREE Acronis Partition software that will do the job. One must start with good housekeeping, right? But of course! The Vista is complaining about security and updates. So I download a free anti-virus, updated Windows Defender, and let Windows Updates back in. And got a clean computer security report, and restarted the computer.
Crash, bam, boom.....
I am back into everything that annoys me about Windows and the reason it is rather pointless to upgrade to Windows 10. The machine says an update date is in progress file 1 of 67 is running.
Maybe tomorrow it will let me have my computer back.
I just never know. It might turn off and then when I turn on it might give me a Stage 3 of 3 update message and tell me to wait. And that might fail the Stage 3 multiple times before finally taking hold. So it is wait, turn on wait, turn off, turn on wait, turn off again maybe, hope that this turn on will work but wait some more.
Windows is just not my idea of an office machine or a good work tool. So while I am waiting an extra day for a project I wanted to finished tomorrow -- I visit this thread.
My mistake, it is Red Hat Linux that is not free. 'Downstream' implies lesser functionality.
Meanwhile, I have had to let my Windows Vista run for 14 hours before three reboots and finally getting back into my computer. But I don't have a clean install yet.
What am I trying to do?
Since I am trying to resolve reallocation of partitions, I am trying to download Free version of disk partitioning softare. MS insists I do this within Windows or be shut out. Otherwise I would just turn to Gparted in Linux at no cost and good reliablity. Microsoft policy is hostile to dual boots with non-Microsoft products -- so one has to let Windows think it controls all the hard disks install on a computer (They claim this is better security.)
Gparted claims I can just use it and then use my Windows Recovery Disk to get back to good -- but the Vista is all Chinese and I never received a Windows Recovery Disk. (Yes, all the instructions on the internet tend to have false assumptions or demand you buy something.)
What am I seeing?
A. Previously removed software is back -- Chrome won't stay removed. Other applications were only partially uninstalled.
B. Free Advast AV is working with lots of pop-ups and adware -- I dislike pop-ups. They get in the way of real work.
C. My Palm PDA Desktop was only partially removed. -- Palm apparently never bothered with a complete clean uninstall application. A common Windows problem.
D. Claims of FREE complete Acronis Disk Director appear to be from darker forces that are trying to load Malware or from Acronis ads that are bait and switch. -- next to nothing is free in Windows. The system you buy is incomplete and the bait-and-switch tactic is there to bully you into buying utilities that are both FREE and originally developed in Unix and Linux.
What am I going to do?
Play along for the learning experience for another day or so.
The main point here is that the Windows Update process takes far longer and is far less pleasant than in Unix/Linux. And Microsoft has always considered an opportunity to sell you something that you neither want or need. Or to sell you something you need that is FREE in other OSes.
And what is the endgame?
If I can't get my hard disks redistributed without buying a Windows supported application, I will clear out the Windows Vista, use Gparted in Linux, and risk loosing the Windows Vista. It is only there as a backup for legacy software.
Well, it seems quite obvious that if I want to do anything in Windows, MS wants me to turn to other vendors and buy useful software. Acronis Disk Director Free version won't resize my Linux partions.
I have an old version of Partition Magic, but that will only work on XP -- not Vista.
Rather than pay $49 USD, I am going to do this all in Linux Gparted on a LIve CD and risk the loss of Windows Vista. I may or may not be able to get to a Windows Recovery screen that will fix the problem after I reallocated.
This approach does risk complete loss of the access to the Windows Vista. I have been through this previously with Windows XP reboots. But the simple fact is my Linux /home partition is 96% full and I resizing partitions is more attractive than removing data from the /home partion.
++++++
Before doing all this, I will see if there is a way for me to make my own Windows Vista Recovery Disk.
Ugggh....... I am going to take a break and use the Linux side of my computer for a Quartus II project. I can't spend days in System Admin efforts.
So far...
A. It seems that Microsoft permitted OEM vendors to withhold a Windows Vista Recovery Disk and sell it in the aftermarket for a fee. I suspect Lemel will no longer sell me one
B. I have an alternative Recovery scheme in BIOS if I hit F9 on boot. I have explored this as it is all in Chinese.
C. MS provided partition management software will only Delete Linux partitions. I have it, but it won't resize an Ext3 partiton or do any sophisticated analysis
These are all old dodges in the proprietary software world. So I am going to the slow lane on repartitioning my computer. I want to think about what I am risking and what I can afford to loose.
There is a real possibilty the Windows Vista will be rendered forever useless, so I am thinking I should migrate any files I want over to my Windows7 notebook or into an a second existing NTFS partition that I can at least manipulate in Linux.
I am tending to think that removing all Windows from my 64bit Quad may not be any real loss. As it is, I have to try to read screen with a Chinese dictionary in hand. And there doesn't appear to be any FREE migration path to English Windows 7.
I loved Vista. Nary a problem, my 2005 Compaq tower came with XP and included the upgrade . Still have that HD with lots of older software that I swap in periodically. Still works great.
I loved Vista. Nary a problem, my 2005 Compaq tower came with XP and included the upgrade . Still have that HD with lots of older software that I swap in periodically. Still works great.
I never had problems with Vista either. I hear people talking about how terrible Vista was and I wonder what I wasn't doing with my PC that all these Vista haters were doing. I assume Vista angered the though since both of our Vista PCs died at the hands of a lightning strike.
(Our doorbell was killed by the same lightning strike, so we no longer accept visitors at the house. Omens are omens, after all!!)
My mistake, it is Red Hat Linux that is not free. 'Downstream' implies lesser functionality.
It is my understanding that RedHat is entirely made out of Free and Open Source software. What you are paying for with RedHat is maintenance and support. Centos is basically a clone of RedHat with all the trademarked stuff removed, branding, logos and such like. I am not aware of any "lesser functionality".
To be clear "downstream" does not imply lesser functionality. It only means the place you are getting the code from is not the original author or project team. Indeed "downstream" may include additional functionality or bug fixes as the distributor adds their own patches. As happens frequently with kernels in various distributions.
We could say that RedHat is downstream of all the projects from which it is comprised. Apart from any components for which RedHat itself is the project maintainer. I can't think of any off the top of my head.
Windows Vista is a very pretty graphic display.
Users struggle with the added security features in the changeover from XP, and many were disappointed that the 3D graphics made the machine run far too slow to be useful.
But in my own case, being forced to use Chinese help screens and getting merely a 32bit version of a 64bit computer are sore points. Any upgrade to 64bit English would cost far more than the price of the original hardward.k Any change to 64bit English Windows 7 or Windows 10 is going to cost me top dollar (because I am in Taiwan and Asian English Windows licenses are never discounted.)
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I loaded my Puppy Linux and reallocated my ext3 partions to get 30Gbytes more in /home. What was my 50Gbyte / partition only has 4.6Gbytes of programs it in. So I cut it down to 20Gbytes (I could have cut even more, but I got my big boost in /home space).
I had forgotten what I learned in XP dual boots.
MS Windows monitors how many partitions there are, not their size. So using Gparted to shift sizes doesn't cause a lock out. But removing or adding partitios outside of Windows will be a disaster... even Linux partitions.
You only require the Windows Recovery Disk if you don't understand this. One can go back and forth with the Windows partition management and gParted in Linux to cleverly avoid a lock out.
All partition adds and deletes have to happen inside Windows and be verified by rebooting before reallocations in Linux. To make space for addtitions one can start in Linux with gParted to create free space, and then go to Windows to add a partition, and back again to Linux to change it to ext3.
Yes, tedious but feasible.
+++++ End Result, I am good to ignore my Vista boot for a few more years. And if I ever need the space, I am sure I can dump the 75Gbyte partition it occupies.
For now, it sits there just in case I am desparate for a Windows OS and my netbook happens to no longer be available.
Final conclusion -- Microsoft products waste my time and demand money that I don't have to pay out elsewhere. It is still that way. So I won't be upgrading to Windows 10 ever. Been abused too much.
Loopy, as Heater stated downstream doesn't mean less features. You are aware of this is your P1V dealings - Jac's P1V repository is downstream from Parallax but he has CV-A9 and 1-2-3 FGPA support among other enhancements. So, while downstream, his repo is more up to date (enhanced) that the upstream repo. Until Jac merged in my 1-2-3 FPGA changes, I was downstream from him but had enhancements. Sometimes you see a delay in features making their way downstream if they were created upstream but often, the enhancements flow the other way.
CentOS should be a near identical but community supported version of Red Hat Enterprise. In fact from what I read, some of the CentOS contributors are RH employees (not uncommon)
Fedora is intended as the leading (bleeding) edge distribution of the RedHat line - it often is where enhancements and technologies destined for RHEL often show up first. Once proven, they are pushed upstream to RHEL (and then down to CentOS, I imagine). I went to Fedora because I was playing with Docker containers and it reportedly had the best/most up to date container support integrated into the distribution. As with most things, the playing field is always changing and different distributions have different goals and objectives in their sights.
I'm currently revisiting Wine to see if there is anything I need that I really have to have a Windows system around for anymore. The jury is still out but they are productively deliberating!
I did NOT say 'downstream means less functionality'.
I did say 'downstream implies less functionality'
My impression was that Red Hat actually held back the release of fixes and improvements on their 'downstream' cousins. The paying customers get the best and much needed first.
But lets face it, being a little bit proprietary is absurd. Red Hat is doing what it can to keep money coming in. Paying customers just have to come first. Providing Fedora and Centros with the same may be delayed until slack periods.
My reasons for going to the Debian side of Linux are primarily because Red Hat is based in the USA where Microsoft can and does bully it with threats of unwarranted ligation. There are components available in Debian that Red Hat will tell people they have to purchase from proprietary sources ... mostly about music and video items, codex and such.
The USA allows civil suits without proving merit until they come to trail. And that might be only after 15 years of expensive pretrial nonsense. So the guys with deep pockets can afford to push around anyone that has less resources.
++++++++
Yes folks, Windows Vista and Windows 7 are useful and relatively stable OSes. I can use them if I want to pay for good software that can be gotten elsewhere for free. And if I want to be distracted my their whole effort to get me to pay perpetually for what only seems to succeed intermittently.
The adware and hype, the comparitive slowness of the OS, and the wastes of both time and money for administrative tasks just plainly have put me off.
I do admit that I mess up my Linux installations and have to struggle with cleaning them up. But when I do, I don't have a bunch of vendors of dubious fixes distracting me with buy this or that. And I don't have an updates process that is so notorious that everyone tells me to never ever turn on Automatic Updates in Windows.
Not another dime to Microsoft... that is my policy.
I have presented my reasons and demonstrated how daunting it can be to keep up with MS products.
"downstream means less functionality" vs "downstream implies less functionality"
That is so subtle you really have to explain the difference. Or, who is implying such a thing?
I did actually use "imply" in my comment.
Thinking about it, if what you say were so then I would rather not be a paying customer and getting new cutting edge features and fixes. I'd rather have the free version where those features and fixes have been aged and battle hardened a bit
I used both "implies" and "means" in my comments. I was sloppy with Loopy's words but did provide teh P1V example to dispel his implied concerns.
In the case of Fedora/Red Hat, I think you get different things depending on which you chose. Fedora is more on the edge as far as new features and stability and it is community supported while RHEL may have more enterprise targeted items in the release roadmap and has paid support/consulting/etc. REHL probably dip down into their downstream Fedora release and pick up those features when something useful comes along. RHEL probably has more OpenStack and cloud work going into it. As I mentioned, it seemed at the time, Fedora had more container oriented things going into it.
You can grab a trial copy of RHEL - not sure of the terms or what happens when the trial is over. The upgrade sources may be locked without a subscription or some such. I'm guessing this is going to be more battle hardened and tested since RH has a vested interest in support costs. Let the non-paying users vet the new features that go into Fedora for the most part.
If I can, I will stay with Debian for now -- but Quartus II may force me to do something about installing a copy of Fedora in 64bit. i am curious about getting a clean Quartus II install in Linux.
Who knows, I might even dump the Windows Vista 32 and change the dual boot on my Intel Quad 64 bit to one side Fedora and one side Debian. Quartus II might run with no complaints (It has two minor ones in Debian) with Fedora.
Dual or multiple boots certainly work for me. I'd rather do that then Virtual Machine installs.
=================
While doing the clean up of Vista over the past few days, I noticed I hadn't really used it at all since 2012. Originally, it was a way back to Windows if Linux was no good. And at the time, I actually thought I might be able to handle an all-Chinese version.
I doubt if I will ever pay the $200USD or more for a 64bit Windows 7 in English.
I'm not sure where the Fedora/Quartus requirement is coming from. I've seen/read replies from a number of people on the forum that are successfully running the latest Quartus under Debian. I maybe the only Fedora users and my choice of Fedoras was not related to Quartus at all.
I must confess, my startup of Quartus on Fedora is a bit boring:
EDIT: The Red Hat (Fedora/CentOS) vs Debian (and derivatives) is just one more technology schism to debate the merits of. As with most, I straddle the schisms and choose tools from both camps depending my needs.....mostly frustrated by when to apt-get versus yum (I mean dnf)....wait, if you type in yum, now, the system assumes dnf was your implied meaning)
Comments
Heater, yes, you are probably right in the main.
However, whether its Windows or Linux, having a default install in the GB's just seems crazy for what the 'average' person wants to do.
On the plus side, I figured out my TinyCore problem, and have to say this Linux thing is... interesting.
I've got the 78MB full Core option running in memory, and it is stupid fast.
Can't recall which DE I've got, FluxBox maybe, however this may just shut me up for a while...
Tons and tons of code for services, libraries I don't need, missing.
Potential security holes from the above, missing
Able to load the -entire- OS into RAM, priceless!
Not sure how small LFS gets... oh 10MB, or 8?
Sigh... I guess I may have to look into learning Linux after all.
Unless I can get the Embedded OpenBSD working....
Is it my imagination or is there an increasing intolerance to debate on this forum? I don't recall such a lot of thread sinking/closing going on in years past. Even when things did ramble on forever and go way off topic.
Anyway, on to more pleasant things...
I don't worry about the Gigabytes installed by default, as long as it does not take all day to download. Most basic installations can still be done from half a CD's worth, not bad. Those tons of code for libraries and service are not a worry, they just sit there on disk unless I make use of them.
Tinycore sounds interesting. If I could get Chrome, Atom and node.js running on it that would be most of what I need from day to day. Then add SimpleIDE, PropellerIDE, BST, and a few other tools. Might make a useful boot from USB stick system to use wherever you go. I wonder it can be built for ARM, the Raspi say?
I don't recall how big a minimal LFS system was, it was many years ago that I was into that. I recall it was a bit of a giggle to run GUI apps with no window manager. There they are on screen with no boarder, no menu, no close, minimize or maximize buttons. Sweet.
I closed that thread in a very calm happy manner! The OP had twice stated he'd had enough of the discussion, and sought assistance. The OP felt the discussion had gone on long enough I guess, and I must admit I agree.
This is a Parallax Forum, and whilst it might be interesting to share some brief anecdotes on general and/or topical subjects, - life starts to become less productive when a 45 page thread appears, seems to keep growing, rolling over and over the same gripes and opinions and getting no-where, just burning valuable creative time!
Topics which are clearly not anything to do with Parallax or fun electronics projects are always going to reach an endpoint (or a borepoint) at some stage- and as you rightly note, on most any forum too!
I'd hope we could all agree- we'd rather read about fun projects and interesting electronics ideas and acheivements! Something engaging; something positive to boost and inspire the future Heaters in this world
Let's talk about what we can do, what we'd like to do- and not about what someone else can't do or hasn't done.
All the best!
Thanks for you explanation. Of course I agree and disagree, it's all a matter of degree. If I can put it that way.
Applying your same reasoning and value judgement to this thread clearly it should also be closed and erco issued a warning about starting multiple, inflammatory threads on the same subject that is not Parallax related.
No, I don't think that should actually happen.
It's not clear to me that the initiator of a thread "owns" it. In the sense of dictating when it has gone on long enough, should be closed or sunk or whatever. Surely all the contributors own it just as much if not more so? Perhaps this should be spelled out in the forum guidelines.
Clearly there is an infinity of topics that are way out of scope for a Parallax forum, politics, religion, sexual orientation, Arduino, favourite ice cream flavour, etc etc
On the other hand there is an ocean of marginally related topics, operating systems, programming languages, software licensing, etc etc that have nothing to do with Parallax or it's products directly but deserve a voice. Pushing the boundaries can have positive results. Like the emergence of cross platform Open Source tools for the Propeller, prop-gcc, openspin, SimpleIDE, PropellerIDE...none of that was Parallax specific back in the day.
I like debates here to be conducted with a sense of fun and curiosity. For example we have the "Official JavaScript War Thread". Lot's of scope for bitching and mud throwing there, all in good humour. I hope. And with a lot of interesting ideas on all sides of the debate.
I should have been more explicit. It is the criticism of exactly MS, it's business practices, and/or it's products that somehow causes people to lose their sense of humour, start taking it personally, charging the speaker with saying things he did not and getting very agitated and aggressive. This is very sad I and I have no idea why it happens.
My apologies to anyone who may have been offended by my inept phrasing of my arguments. No offence intended.
Not to be sucked into a long running (nor any running) debate on this, I might just say that the MS thing is not such a conspiracy from my perspective at least. Simply I'd say there were probably too many threads about similar topics, and they kinda swamped the overall look and feel of this non-MS forum a bit!
That JWT you mention does click along, and perhaps a single "MS place in electronics" type thread might also find longevity. But to have threads titled for "bashing" and complaining is not, I'd hope, really what the general public wants to see. Amusing sure for a few people and for a few days, but not a long term positive thing here.
Not speaking for Parallax, but a thread on members favourite ice-cream flavours needn't be such a bad thing either. I'd vote! But I'd think these fun topics should be in the minority? Or at least short lived? We break for tea, have some fun, then get back to work?
Just my Sunday afternoon thoughts. I'll sign off this thread here and leave you to ponder your favourite flavour and carry otherwise on where you left off before by interruptions!
enjoy!
And I am trying to stay on topic, but failing badly herein -=- nothing about Window 10
If I find myself participating in too many threads that are closed for this reason, I take a look at what I have contributed to getting them closed versus what informative and useful content was desired. Some threads are all wrong from their beginning -- maybe this one.
Others have destructive contributors.
Maybe we should have a Hall of Shame listing the top 5 participants in in Closed Threads. There are simply some that think the forum is all about their opinions, not adding useful facts to the threads designated purpose.
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Obvious having said that, it is all off the topic of this thread... Bashing Windows 10. So it seems I am contradicting myself.
But I certainly wasn't the one that initially complained about Closing the related thread. That is really where getting off the topic began. Another thread should have been opened about Closing Thread Policy.
I am just begging people to try to improve the quality of their contributions to the Parallax Forums and not impulsively editorialize on every thread. Find a project and collaborate rather than rant about the state of the world.
OK I'm with you.
We have even had threads about some ghastly fruit pies here
(No not the Raspberry Pi
All good fun for a rest break from hacking code or wielding the soldering iron.
So, following the advice of the famous Bob Pease who said: “My favorite programming language is solder”, I will now get back to my soldering iron. Perhaps the result will show up here as a thread at some point soon.
Tinycore sounds interesting. If I could get Chrome, Atom and node.js running on it that would be most of what I need from day to day. Then add SimpleIDE, PropellerIDE, BST, and a few other tools. Might make a useful boot from USB stick system to use wherever you go. I wonder it can be built for ARM, the Raspi say?
[/quote]
TinyCore has a RPi forum, quite a few posts in it too.
Thats one of the reasons I want a slimmed down OS as well.
And to keep it on-topic, this is way smaller than W10.
I think there is a fair bit of whining and complaining on all sides.
On the one hand 2 threads were opened with the express purpose of bashing W10 or polling for fanboys.
Then, when one thread gets heated and 'divergent', somehow one person can ask that it be shut down.
Even if I started a thread that somehow ended up growing a life of its own, I'd consider myself a party-pooper if I ran to Mom and Dad and asked them to send everyone home.
I understand Erco's frustration, however once you open a public thread, you shouldn't be able take your ball and go home. Other people have invested time and effort into the thread as well.
Considering the real invasion of Privacy that was uncovered, even I as a MS-friendly sort can see where Linux almost had to rear its ugly head in the discussion. Thats why I'm not installing W10.
In this instance, I have to say Heater was not the first person to reference Linux, and as I re-read the thread, simply responded to it. I've complained a bit to Heater when he's brought up Linux out of thin air, and I believe he's not really doing that much anymore, which I am sure is hard
However maybe Parallax should institute more draconian punishments for everyone going off-topic in the slightest way.
What say, 1-day Ban for first offence, 1-week for second, 1-month for third?
Then maybe we can spice things up give virtual awards to those who are able to notify Mods of offenders first?
/sarcasm
The forums are generally civil, limited cursing, and on-point wrt threads and discussions.
I salute VonSzarvas for locking the other thread instead of sinking it.
Though again, every other forum out there seems to have realized sometimes you CAN just leave one thread open for general batching and complaining, and it helps those who need to vent be directed easily.
I raised this point with VonSzarvas above, not sure what the policy on thread "ownership" is yet.
Mostly this is the most well behaved, orderly, instructive, educational and inspiring forums on the internet. At least as far as I have found so far. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.
Can we also put miscreants in the stocks in the village square and throw rotten vegetables at them? Also that business about drowning witches was fun. Edgar Hoovers persecution of suspected communists was very popular. The modern day political correctness persecutions are a gas too (Google Brendan Eich)
In general let's just hang, decapitate, burn, poison (Socrates) anyone speaking out of place.
Yeah, OK, I'm being a little bit over dramatic. Maybe I should just say "No, that is a terrible idea"
Though I mainly use 'that other OS', I retain the copies of Windows that came with the machines by a dual boot set up.
Having spent 24 hours on running my netbook in updates for its Windows7, I went ballistic at all the waiting -- but I finally got a clean bill of health.
That allowed me to load Lattice Diamond IDE. I was simply wary that a nice proprietary FPGA company wasn't going to give me full support in that 'other OS'. (Altera Quartus II seems to want me to buy Fedora. These guys in chip development conspire to sell you a proprietary OS.)
++++++++++
Now I had turned to cleaning up my mainstay - and Intel Quad 64bit machine and need to resize the partitions in that 'other OS'. But having Windows Vista on the machine means that all partition changes have to go through Windows or it will shut me out ... maybe forever.
Happily I located FREE Acronis Partition software that will do the job. One must start with good housekeeping, right? But of course! The Vista is complaining about security and updates. So I download a free anti-virus, updated Windows Defender, and let Windows Updates back in. And got a clean computer security report, and restarted the computer.
Crash, bam, boom.....
I am back into everything that annoys me about Windows and the reason it is rather pointless to upgrade to Windows 10. The machine says an update date is in progress file 1 of 67 is running.
Maybe tomorrow it will let me have my computer back.
I just never know. It might turn off and then when I turn on it might give me a Stage 3 of 3 update message and tell me to wait. And that might fail the Stage 3 multiple times before finally taking hold. So it is wait, turn on wait, turn off, turn on wait, turn off again maybe, hope that this turn on will work but wait some more.
Windows is just not my idea of an office machine or a good work tool. So while I am waiting an extra day for a project I wanted to finished tomorrow -- I visit this thread.
Centos is free.
Both are downstream community supported versions of Red Hat - not free.
When one reaps the same dividends from different venues, one might ask, "Could it be me, and not them?"
Meanwhile, I have had to let my Windows Vista run for 14 hours before three reboots and finally getting back into my computer. But I don't have a clean install yet.
What am I trying to do?
Since I am trying to resolve reallocation of partitions, I am trying to download Free version of disk partitioning softare. MS insists I do this within Windows or be shut out. Otherwise I would just turn to Gparted in Linux at no cost and good reliablity. Microsoft policy is hostile to dual boots with non-Microsoft products -- so one has to let Windows think it controls all the hard disks install on a computer (They claim this is better security.)
Gparted claims I can just use it and then use my Windows Recovery Disk to get back to good -- but the Vista is all Chinese and I never received a Windows Recovery Disk. (Yes, all the instructions on the internet tend to have false assumptions or demand you buy something.)
What am I seeing?
A. Previously removed software is back -- Chrome won't stay removed. Other applications were only partially uninstalled.
B. Free Advast AV is working with lots of pop-ups and adware -- I dislike pop-ups. They get in the way of real work.
C. My Palm PDA Desktop was only partially removed. -- Palm apparently never bothered with a complete clean uninstall application. A common Windows problem.
D. Claims of FREE complete Acronis Disk Director appear to be from darker forces that are trying to load Malware or from Acronis ads that are bait and switch. -- next to nothing is free in Windows. The system you buy is incomplete and the bait-and-switch tactic is there to bully you into buying utilities that are both FREE and originally developed in Unix and Linux.
What am I going to do?
Play along for the learning experience for another day or so.
The main point here is that the Windows Update process takes far longer and is far less pleasant than in Unix/Linux. And Microsoft has always considered an opportunity to sell you something that you neither want or need. Or to sell you something you need that is FREE in other OSes.
And what is the endgame?
If I can't get my hard disks redistributed without buying a Windows supported application, I will clear out the Windows Vista, use Gparted in Linux, and risk loosing the Windows Vista. It is only there as a backup for legacy software.
I have an old version of Partition Magic, but that will only work on XP -- not Vista.
Rather than pay $49 USD, I am going to do this all in Linux Gparted on a LIve CD and risk the loss of Windows Vista. I may or may not be able to get to a Windows Recovery screen that will fix the problem after I reallocated.
This approach does risk complete loss of the access to the Windows Vista. I have been through this previously with Windows XP reboots. But the simple fact is my Linux /home partition is 96% full and I resizing partitions is more attractive than removing data from the /home partion.
++++++
Before doing all this, I will see if there is a way for me to make my own Windows Vista Recovery Disk.
So far...
A. It seems that Microsoft permitted OEM vendors to withhold a Windows Vista Recovery Disk and sell it in the aftermarket for a fee. I suspect Lemel will no longer sell me one
B. I have an alternative Recovery scheme in BIOS if I hit F9 on boot. I have explored this as it is all in Chinese.
C. MS provided partition management software will only Delete Linux partitions. I have it, but it won't resize an Ext3 partiton or do any sophisticated analysis
These are all old dodges in the proprietary software world. So I am going to the slow lane on repartitioning my computer. I want to think about what I am risking and what I can afford to loose.
There is a real possibilty the Windows Vista will be rendered forever useless, so I am thinking I should migrate any files I want over to my Windows7 notebook or into an a second existing NTFS partition that I can at least manipulate in Linux.
I am tending to think that removing all Windows from my 64bit Quad may not be any real loss. As it is, I have to try to read screen with a Chinese dictionary in hand. And there doesn't appear to be any FREE migration path to English Windows 7.
I never had problems with Vista either. I hear people talking about how terrible Vista was and I wonder what I wasn't doing with my PC that all these Vista haters were doing. I assume Vista angered the though since both of our Vista PCs died at the hands of a lightning strike.
(Our doorbell was killed by the same lightning strike, so we no longer accept visitors at the house. Omens are omens, after all!!)
To be clear "downstream" does not imply lesser functionality. It only means the place you are getting the code from is not the original author or project team. Indeed "downstream" may include additional functionality or bug fixes as the distributor adds their own patches. As happens frequently with kernels in various distributions.
We could say that RedHat is downstream of all the projects from which it is comprised. Apart from any components for which RedHat itself is the project maintainer. I can't think of any off the top of my head.
Users struggle with the added security features in the changeover from XP, and many were disappointed that the 3D graphics made the machine run far too slow to be useful.
But in my own case, being forced to use Chinese help screens and getting merely a 32bit version of a 64bit computer are sore points. Any upgrade to 64bit English would cost far more than the price of the original hardward.k Any change to 64bit English Windows 7 or Windows 10 is going to cost me top dollar (because I am in Taiwan and Asian English Windows licenses are never discounted.)
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I loaded my Puppy Linux and reallocated my ext3 partions to get 30Gbytes more in /home. What was my 50Gbyte / partition only has 4.6Gbytes of programs it in. So I cut it down to 20Gbytes (I could have cut even more, but I got my big boost in /home space).
I had forgotten what I learned in XP dual boots.
MS Windows monitors how many partitions there are, not their size. So using Gparted to shift sizes doesn't cause a lock out. But removing or adding partitios outside of Windows will be a disaster... even Linux partitions.
You only require the Windows Recovery Disk if you don't understand this. One can go back and forth with the Windows partition management and gParted in Linux to cleverly avoid a lock out.
All partition adds and deletes have to happen inside Windows and be verified by rebooting before reallocations in Linux. To make space for addtitions one can start in Linux with gParted to create free space, and then go to Windows to add a partition, and back again to Linux to change it to ext3.
Yes, tedious but feasible.
+++++
End Result, I am good to ignore my Vista boot for a few more years. And if I ever need the space, I am sure I can dump the 75Gbyte partition it occupies.
For now, it sits there just in case I am desparate for a Windows OS and my netbook happens to no longer be available.
Final conclusion -- Microsoft products waste my time and demand money that I don't have to pay out elsewhere. It is still that way. So I won't be upgrading to Windows 10 ever. Been abused too much.
Loopy, as Heater stated downstream doesn't mean less features. You are aware of this is your P1V dealings - Jac's P1V repository is downstream from Parallax but he has CV-A9 and 1-2-3 FGPA support among other enhancements. So, while downstream, his repo is more up to date (enhanced) that the upstream repo. Until Jac merged in my 1-2-3 FPGA changes, I was downstream from him but had enhancements. Sometimes you see a delay in features making their way downstream if they were created upstream but often, the enhancements flow the other way.
CentOS should be a near identical but community supported version of Red Hat Enterprise. In fact from what I read, some of the CentOS contributors are RH employees (not uncommon)
Fedora is intended as the leading (bleeding) edge distribution of the RedHat line - it often is where enhancements and technologies destined for RHEL often show up first. Once proven, they are pushed upstream to RHEL (and then down to CentOS, I imagine). I went to Fedora because I was playing with Docker containers and it reportedly had the best/most up to date container support integrated into the distribution. As with most things, the playing field is always changing and different distributions have different goals and objectives in their sights.
I'm currently revisiting Wine to see if there is anything I need that I really have to have a Windows system around for anymore. The jury is still out but they are productively deliberating!
I did say 'downstream implies less functionality'
My impression was that Red Hat actually held back the release of fixes and improvements on their 'downstream' cousins. The paying customers get the best and much needed first.
But lets face it, being a little bit proprietary is absurd. Red Hat is doing what it can to keep money coming in. Paying customers just have to come first. Providing Fedora and Centros with the same may be delayed until slack periods.
My reasons for going to the Debian side of Linux are primarily because Red Hat is based in the USA where Microsoft can and does bully it with threats of unwarranted ligation. There are components available in Debian that Red Hat will tell people they have to purchase from proprietary sources ... mostly about music and video items, codex and such.
The USA allows civil suits without proving merit until they come to trail. And that might be only after 15 years of expensive pretrial nonsense. So the guys with deep pockets can afford to push around anyone that has less resources.
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Yes folks, Windows Vista and Windows 7 are useful and relatively stable OSes. I can use them if I want to pay for good software that can be gotten elsewhere for free. And if I want to be distracted my their whole effort to get me to pay perpetually for what only seems to succeed intermittently.
The adware and hype, the comparitive slowness of the OS, and the wastes of both time and money for administrative tasks just plainly have put me off.
I do admit that I mess up my Linux installations and have to struggle with cleaning them up. But when I do, I don't have a bunch of vendors of dubious fixes distracting me with buy this or that. And I don't have an updates process that is so notorious that everyone tells me to never ever turn on Automatic Updates in Windows.
Not another dime to Microsoft... that is my policy.
I have presented my reasons and demonstrated how daunting it can be to keep up with MS products.
"downstream means less functionality" vs "downstream implies less functionality"
That is so subtle you really have to explain the difference. Or, who is implying such a thing?
I did actually use "imply" in my comment.
Thinking about it, if what you say were so then I would rather not be a paying customer and getting new cutting edge features and fixes. I'd rather have the free version where those features and fixes have been aged and battle hardened a bit
In the case of Fedora/Red Hat, I think you get different things depending on which you chose. Fedora is more on the edge as far as new features and stability and it is community supported while RHEL may have more enterprise targeted items in the release roadmap and has paid support/consulting/etc. REHL probably dip down into their downstream Fedora release and pick up those features when something useful comes along. RHEL probably has more OpenStack and cloud work going into it. As I mentioned, it seemed at the time, Fedora had more container oriented things going into it.
You can grab a trial copy of RHEL - not sure of the terms or what happens when the trial is over. The upgrade sources may be locked without a subscription or some such. I'm guessing this is going to be more battle hardened and tested since RH has a vested interest in support costs. Let the non-paying users vet the new features that go into Fedora for the most part.
Who knows, I might even dump the Windows Vista 32 and change the dual boot on my Intel Quad 64 bit to one side Fedora and one side Debian. Quartus II might run with no complaints (It has two minor ones in Debian) with Fedora.
Dual or multiple boots certainly work for me. I'd rather do that then Virtual Machine installs.
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While doing the clean up of Vista over the past few days, I noticed I hadn't really used it at all since 2012. Originally, it was a way back to Windows if Linux was no good. And at the time, I actually thought I might be able to handle an all-Chinese version.
I doubt if I will ever pay the $200USD or more for a 64bit Windows 7 in English.
I must confess, my startup of Quartus on Fedora is a bit boring:
*OR*
EDIT: The Red Hat (Fedora/CentOS) vs Debian (and derivatives) is just one more technology schism to debate the merits of. As with most, I straddle the schisms and choose tools from both camps depending my needs.....mostly frustrated by when to apt-get versus yum (I mean dnf)....wait, if you type in yum, now, the system assumes dnf was your implied meaning)