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Re: Discontinuing USPS First–Class Mail Shipping Options - Page 2 — Parallax Forums

Re: Discontinuing USPS First–Class Mail Shipping Options

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Comments

  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2015-03-05 21:13
    I have seen by myself, USPS tracking says "delivered" but there was no mailman with the package at all.
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2015-03-06 06:18
    The Domestic USPS mail is very reliable. I still don't understand why it's being discussed as if it was the same thing as International.

    I am by no means a huge multi-million dollar company, but over the last 6 years I've averaged well over 100 shipments per year via USPS Domestic First Class. I have had exactly 2 claims of failure to arrive. There is also the fact that the actual differences between Priority Mail and (Domestic) First Class Parcel are minimal. The very low cost for packages under 14 oz. is a selling point and a big reason why intelligent customers prefer it.

    If I was losing money by shipping via Domestic USPS First Class, I would have to conclude that I was pricing my products incorrectly. Apparently I was wrong and the days of making profit on "shipping and handling" are not yet over.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2015-03-06 07:32
    Just a bit of an anectdote...

    I'm on Kickstarter, ande of the projects I backed was the TinyScreen for the TinyDuino...
    Rewards was shipped out as "USPS First Class PAckage Internationall Service" recently, and today I found it in my postbox...
    USPS tracking still has it as 'Arrived on Jamaica on March 2'
    Frankly, I have no clue why it needed to pass through Jamaica on its way to Norway, or why tracking decided to take a groovy day off there...
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2015-03-06 07:38
    Hehe, that was probably Jamaica, New York, and not Jamaica, the island country. I've seen the same on items shipped to me from certain areas of the US. It just illustrates what I described earlier, that tracking stops at the border anyway and is basically useless for international customers (to the degree that even the US domestic tracking is accurate - and I've seen many indications of the opposite)

    -Tor
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-03-06 08:28
    Sadly, the Logistic Companies, DHL, Fed-Ex, and UPS have taken over where the Postal Services were okay at one time.

    The end result is that most of what I order from abroad is double the cost due to added shipping. Europeans have the VAT as well.

    In addition to added cost, I have found that the Logistic Companies really don't desire home deliveries. They constantly are asking me to open a 'business account' and treat me as if I am a business office that is staffed from 8am to 8pm (without lunch break).

    Net result, I buy less and less that is shipped from abroad.

    DHL delivers to the nearest 7-11 for Taiwan commerce and I can pay COD, and shipping is often FREE to the purchaser. All that replicates the kind of service the post offices previously provided. About the only difference is I get my arrival notices via e-main and not in the mail box.

    But Fed-Ex and UPS seem to have not wised up to was the average consumer finds so rude. One friend in the USA, refers to the two as FED-UP. I strongly feel that the whole privatization of parcel delivery has degraded the ability to sell across borders.

    My last big project, a balancing bot has been left unfinished just because half the components ordered abroad never arrived. I tried to save money by ordering cheaply from www.dx.com. It is six months later and Only 2 out of 4 items showed up. (Buyer beware of Deal Extreme.. to good to be true.)

    In sum, Parallax would do well to develop more regional or country distributors. I know this is a problem of inventory to the distributor and pricing wholesale discounts. But not much else will work well. I AM DELIGHTED to see Parallax distributors in Taiwan.

    At one time, I suggested 'campus representatives'. For university students and friends in other countries, these can group buy at a big saving of shipping costs.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2015-03-06 09:01
    The problem is the at least here in Norway, DHL is deliberately pricing themselves out of the private market with grossly inflated customs handling fees.
    That probably also happens in other countries, but here they've got an extra tool...
    The TOLL/VAT limit is not at 350NOK(a bit over $45) INCLUDING shipping charges, so if shipping cost isn't explicitly written on the pacakage documentation, they're left free to estimate it. Even for packages that has been handled by them from the start...
    And it REALLY sucks when they smack a $50 handling fee onto a $35 package... in addition to the VAT of course...
  • Kenny GardnerKenny Gardner Posts: 169
    edited 2015-03-06 12:15
    Gordon,

    That is interesting to know.

    I wonder why, then, UPS requires that the shipper file the claims and put tracers on packages? I've tried to do this with lost packages and they tell me the shipper has to do it.

    And with the Post Office, its a lost cause. Trying to work with them is a nightmare.

    Kenny
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2015-03-06 13:48
    I imagine it has to do with who paid for the insurance, which is usually the shipper. My understanding is that either shipper or receiver can report a lost package, but the claim is only paid to the shipper. That makes sense because the claim is for the insurance, not the actual contents of the package. UPS insures everything for $100, unless you buy more. So there's never an issue of squabbling over the loss of an uninsured package, like there used to be with the post office. At a minimum you know you get $100 back.

    Buyers have additional recourse to mitigate loss if the shipper is not responsive. All credit cards, and most debit cards, will return funds to your account -- and charge back the shipper -- if you can show a package you paid for was never delivered.

    UPS has their own shipping contact, so when you use them, you agree to their terms. These aren't laws, but contractual terms between parties. The insurance/claim process is part of the terms they have you agree to, in order to streamline their business.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-03-07 02:05
    Gadgetman wrote: »
    The problem is the at least here in Norway, DHL is deliberately pricing themselves out of the private market with grossly inflated customs handling fees.
    That probably also happens in other countries, but here they've got an extra tool...
    The TOLL/VAT limit is not at 350NOK(a bit over $45) INCLUDING shipping charges, so if shipping cost isn't explicitly written on the pacakage documentation, they're left free to estimate it. Even for packages that has been handled by them from the start...
    And it REALLY sucks when they smack a $50 handling fee onto a $35 package... in addition to the VAT of course...

    With international postal deliveries, we had government to government supervision of policies and charges. While it wasn't perfect, at least one knew where they stood and how to appeal.

    With the logistics companies, a new tyranny of having nobody willing to listen to the small individual recipient. The logistics companies seem to desire 'big accounts' and 'big fees'. Both pretty much impose a take it or leave it basis. This trend is not going to turn around soon, if ever.

    Group purchases by students or others might be the only way to go. People can organize to work around the situation.

    I am not a student, but I have Taiwanese friends that network with family members that are flight attendants to actually do purchases in the USA and then bring back to Kaohsiung, Taiwan. I could order Parallax items this way, but I generally don't. The point is this is an indication of how far the problem with logistics companies have gone.
  • LA6WNALA6WNA Posts: 138
    edited 2015-03-07 02:21
    Gadgetman wrote: »
    The problem is the at least here in Norway, DHL is deliberately pricing themselves out of the private market with grossly inflated customs handling fees.
    That probably also happens in other countries, but here they've got an extra tool...
    The TOLL/VAT limit is not at 350NOK(a bit over $45) INCLUDING shipping charges, so if shipping cost isn't explicitly written on the pacakage documentation, they're left free to estimate it. Even for packages that has been handled by them from the start...
    And it REALLY sucks when they smack a $50 handling fee onto a $35 package... in addition to the VAT of course...

    Aggreed. All items bought from USA gets many times expensive when they reach the Norwegian border. The strange thing is that packages from China etc, newer get stucked in the toll/vat system. I`ve bought items on e-bay from China, Taiwan, ..., so on, and even with a cost of say $100, they go right to my mailbox without toll/vat. This never happens with packages from USA or UK. They always gets toll charges.
    So, YES it`s hard (expencive) to be a Propeller hobbyist here in Norway. But all kind of fun costs... Propeller is too fun to quit, so I`ll hang on anyway.
    That said, if Parallax can find a cheaper way to ship international, I would be more than glad..
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2015-03-07 07:09
    LA6WNA wrote:
    I`ve bought items on e-bay from China, Taiwan, ..., so on, and even with a cost of say $100, they go right to my mailbox without toll/vat. This never happens with packages from USA or UK. They always gets toll charges.
    That's because the Chinese suppliers routinely lie on the customs declaration form -- ether undervaluing the merchandise or calling it a "gift."

    -Phil
  • Ron CzapalaRon Czapala Posts: 2,418
    edited 2015-03-07 07:26
    That's because the Chinese suppliers routinely lie on the customs declaration form -- ether undervaluing the merchandise or calling it a "gift."

    -Phil

    I wondered if China somehow subsidized package mailing costs to the U.S. - found this interesting letter:

    USPS gives eBay China Sellers Competitive Advantage

    http://www.ecommercebytes.com/C/letters/blog.pl?/pl/2012/4/1334191984.html
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2015-03-07 07:56
    LA6WNA wrote: »
    Aggreed. All items bought from USA gets many times expensive when they reach the Norwegian border. The strange thing is that packages from China etc, newer get stucked in the toll/vat system. I`ve bought items on e-bay from China, Taiwan, ..., so on, and even with a cost of say $100, they go right to my mailbox without toll/vat. This never happens with packages from USA or UK. They always gets toll charges.
    So, YES it`s hard (expencive) to be a Propeller hobbyist here in Norway. But all kind of fun costs... Propeller is too fun to quit, so I`ll hang on anyway.
    That said, if Parallax can find a cheaper way to ship international, I would be more than glad..

    Working on it. When completed this will be the world's lowest cost and fastest direct to home small package delivery system. The system's goals are to deliver a package up to 10Kg anywhere in the world in 24 hours or less for no more than $10.00USD.

    An added cost saving benefit would be the total avoidance of any tolls or taxes.

    The project code name is “Ballistic Launch Automated Mail”, or Blam for brevity.

    We are currently looking for a more isolated location to move the rail gun to. Our current neighbours are constantly complaining about the sonic boom every time we launch a test package ;- (
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2015-03-07 11:07
    I wondered if China somehow subsidized package mailing costs to the U.S.

    This has been the claim.
  • msrobotsmsrobots Posts: 3,709
    edited 2015-03-07 17:38
    Well - actually it is not China subsidizing the mailing cost to the USA. It is the USPS by offering bulk rates for shipping, way below cost. Same with all the advertising you get in the mail. USPS charges way below cost.

    But it's not the taxpayer, paying for this? Sure it is. But not through congress. Just through higher domestic rates.

    If somebody is able to sell something from China and deliver it via USPS to any place in the US of A for less then a dollar, no one in the US of A is able to compete.

    And that is wrong. Simple as that. Wrong.

    Blaming China for doing it? I do not think so. If Parallax (or any other American company) would set up a distribution center in China, they could use them cheap shipping option too. Sadly they must then move production over there also.

    And that is what basically happened already with a lot of production. Heck, San Francisco was PROUD to announce that they saved 2 million out of a 2 billion project by producing the new Bridge in China and ship the parts to the US. Brilliant, isn't it? And American steel workers are unemployed.

    Who to blame? Well - this might go to far into politics for this forum so I try to be very careful. As usual there are multiple reasons for any development. And hindsight is always easier as detecting things before they happen.

    I am born and raised in Germany. By now I lived there the most time of my life. If I get old enough this may change on my 92's birthday. I visited America the first time in 1984. What a vibrant and positive experience! Somehow I had the feeling of being in a movie, leaving the SF airport. I had seen all of it hundreds of times in TV and all of it looked familiar but strange at the same time. But the most inspiring thing where the people I met. Full of energy. Working on the American dream and succeeding.

    Over the next decades I visited the US of A every time my stepfather got a new job somewhere and he and my mum needed to move. I took 3 weeks vacation, came over and moved them and their belongings. So I sampled my impressions over 20 years in different towns and states. It was a constant declining slope. Slow. But visiting every couple of years it became more accentuated. The people still work hard, but the American dream part is failing. At some time something went badly wrong here in the US of A.

    USPS delivering parcels out of China into any place in the US for a lower rate as out of Rocklin, California is just one example of things that went badly wrong. There are way more.

    Do not get me wrong here. I still think America is a better place to be as Germany. That is why I moved here.

    Enjoy!

    Mike
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2015-03-07 21:00
    That's because the Chinese suppliers routinely lie on the customs declaration form -- ether undervaluing the merchandise or calling it a "gift."

    -Phil
    The "gift" thing doesn't work for Norway, customs only accept "gift" if it's shipped from a private address. Just having a printed label is enough to call it off. The real reason is the other thing you mention - they routinely under-declare the value. But on the other hand, most of the goods I buy from China are below the customs limit anyway so it's all pointless on their side. Under-declaring a bag of resistors costing $4.. oh well.

    -Tor
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2015-03-08 04:01
    Actually, if you shop at DX.com they'll not lie on the declaration unless you ask them to.
    Possibly because the Norwegian Post office returned a whole shipping container from them without bothering to check the declarations. And they did it in late november/early december that year, I think.
    A lot of nerds suddenly had to brave the outdoors to buy christmas presents. Nerds capable of throwing up a real stink-storm on the DX forums...

    On the other hand...
    I bought a spot-welder for batteries on eBay(about $150), and that one got through without being molested with Toll or VAT, even with the correct declaration... ;-)
  • banjobanjo Posts: 447
    edited 2015-03-23 09:59
    Thanks Ken. Repeating from my modified post above, I know Parallax values it's customers and goes out of it's way to give good customer service.
    I completely agree with Ron and others that the customer service from Parallax is excellent!
    Paradoxically it seems that because of this excellent service (that has been misused by some customers), the honest international customers are suffering and cannot receive same service as before. While I'm still regularly visiting the forums, I'm not anymore interested in new Parallax products or discounted products due to the $39 shipping charge on which I'm paying 25% VAT even if only air is shipped. This is still just a hobby for me.

    I do hope that Parallax finds a solution that is safe enough for them and affordable for us international customers!
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-03-24 06:20
    Postal shipping seems to just be in a slow motion collapse.

    It is not just Parallax, the whole hobby is being hurt by the domination of expensive shipping logistic companies. I have always been willing to wait six weeks for arrivals if I could get shiping costs that were reasonable and reliable. I used to do so with surface shipping book rate from the USA, but even that has disappeared and everything must go air at a higher rate.

    Regarding unbeatable low price, and free shipping...
    I have an order from Deal Extreme that was supposed to have been shipped from Singapore to me many months ago, but half of it never arrived. Deal Extreme has recently re-shipped and I am limbo once again with know idea if these items will arrive. The USPS is not involved as all, but these small item parcels are just not getting through. It looks like closure might happen soon ( about 7-8 months), but it coulld also never happen and I just get my money back.

    VAT certainly creates a barrier to importing of small quatities, and maybe any quantity. I don't completely understand if it applied to all and everything one buys, or just select items. I don't see how VAT works in lieu of Import duties.... seems that it doesn't.

    There used to be ways to warehouse products abroad in duty-free zones, and only pay duty and taxes as items were delivered to the end user. Is it possible this is what Mouser, Digikey, and others can do to suppy Parallax parts in Europe?

    +++++++++++
    In any event, aside from the VAT this is a global dilemma. I can't order anything outside Taiwan without a huge shipping cost often doubling the price of the desired item.

    Pretty much, I loose the desire to attempt projects because procurement is a big hassle. About all I can think is that creating of complete project kits might take some of the sting out of import.
    +++++++++++

    I do know that the Taiwanese network with family and friends that are travelling abroad and the traveller often departs with a long list of items to bring home. I suppose hobby groups could do the same, and so could clubs at universities. But it seems like we are going back to the Stone Age of buying internationally.
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2015-03-24 07:35
    VAT certainly creates a barrier to importing of small quatities, and maybe any quantity. I don't completely understand if it applied to all and everything one buys, or just select items. I don't see how VAT works in lieu of Import duties.... seems that it doesn't.
    VAT is simply a sales tax, it applies to everything (with a few exceptions - in Norway physical books are exempt, so my Amazon or Lulu orders may be as large as I wish). Duty is different, it varies by the type of goods and in Europe there's mostly no duty on any of the hobbyist items we discuss here. Brazil and some other countries do have high duty rates I believe. I would have to pay 10% duty if I were to import clothes from the US to Norway though - so the Parallax hat could be an issue.. but both VAT (25% in Norway) and duty only hits when the value goes above a certain limit. But mostly we can forget about duty, for Europeans (and Japanese) at least.
    There used to be ways to warehouse products abroad in duty-free zones, and only pay duty and taxes as items were delivered to the end user. Is it possible this is what Mouser, Digikey, and others can do to suppy Parallax parts in Europe?
    Apparently Mouser works ok in the UK, at least I see people from the UK ordering parts from Mouser.. but to Norway, there's always an astronomical shipping fee, same with Digikey (they only ship by FedEx or UPS), and even if you order so much that you get "free shipping" you still have to pay VAT on the "free shipping", i.e. the courier rate. So I've never been able to buy anything from Mouser for example. It's just throwing money to the wind. I have bought a few costly items via DigiKey in the past.

    And then there's of course the "local" distributors, they even sell Parallax.. I'm talking Elfa here. They consider every customer a company, and only ship (even locally!) with courier rates, and they increase the price so much that taken together it's as costly, or even more, than if I were to order a single component directly from the US, with high shipping, plus VAT on the item and the shipping. In short, it's pointless to buy from the "local" distributor unless you're a company and don't care about the price, only about getting it tomorrow.

    It is indeed getting more difficult to be a hobbyist, unfortunately.
    I do know that the Taiwanese network with family and friends that are travelling abroad and the traveller often departs with a long list of items to bring home. I suppose hobby groups could do the same, and so could clubs at universities. But it seems like we are going back to the Stone Age of buying internationally.
    Ha! Well said. Yes, it's a bit like that. The only good thing I experienced recently was when I took a train to a city in Japan and walked around. I stumbled on a shop where you could buy integrated circuits (74xxx of various kinds, and CMOS, and lots of others), capacitors, resistors, transistors.. and all those small mechanical buttons and whatnot you would use for your hobby project. Just pick component-by-component. Very low price too. I bought a couple of transistors to fix a kitchen timer with.
    I didn't expect to find that kind of shop anywhere anymore. We certainly don't have them in Norway.

    -Tor
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-03-24 10:20
    Well, if I ever go to Norway I will expect to survive on local pickeled herring and 2nd hand books, no microcontroller hobby. It sounds like I can enjoy reindeer meatballs, but the VAT on Italian pasta would contribute to me loosing a few kilos.

    Simply put, ten years ago everyone was optimistic about globalization allowing them to buy and sell anything from and to anywhere, now we have drifted back towards regionalization.

    Sadly, I can buy English language books on Amazon and double the price with shipping, or I can buy the same books in Taiwan at double the American price with free shipping. Something similar occurs in the Arduino, Propeller, Raspberry Pi marketplace. Nobody is buying in large lots to save shipping costs and passing any savings through to the retail buyers.

    And what I was trying to clarify is that while Deal Extreme tries to break through all this with free shipping and low price to Taiwan, the stuff never arrives, or arrives a half year later. I would be angry with them, but I pity them for trying so hard.

    ++++++++++
    It still seems like a friend can go to the USA, buy what you want and ship it to you as a gift. They just have to put a non-business return address on package. That is important because many willing shoppers don't want the hassle when returning through customs with lots of purchases.

    ++++++++
    I have visited the consumer electronics district in Toyko. That was fun and very very odd. I didn't buy much. I also visited a 2nd hand computer electronics market in GuangZhou, China and they have bits and pieces of every ancient device one could imagine -- just nothing quite ready to work. Good prices, useless junk. Does anyone really buy salvaged SMD capacitors and resistors!!! I did get a very nice terracotta status of Guanyin in GuangZhou, and enjoyed the struggle of carrying it all the way home in one piece.

    If one ever gets to Hong Kong, you can buy anything there. But they really are good at selling you something that isn't working or isn't quite what you wanted... which you only discover after you get to your hotel room or get home. Just because the box is right, doesn't mean you will find the right thing inside the box. They are masters at recycling packaging and redoing shrinkwrap with all the right stickers. Open the box before you pay.
  • LA6WNALA6WNA Posts: 138
    edited 2015-03-24 13:48
    kwinn wrote: »
    The project code name is “Ballistic Launch Automated Mail”, or Blam for brevity.

    We are currently looking for a more isolated location to move the rail gun to. Our current neighbours are constantly complaining about the sonic boom every time we launch a test package ;- (

    I like your "BLAM" cocept... Hope you`ll find a safe location for the system soon. Got a nice landing space for the packets right outside my door....:-) Is it BS2 or Propeller controlled?
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2015-03-25 02:20
    LA6WNA wrote: »
    I like your "BLAM" cocept... Hope you`ll find a safe location for the system soon. Got a nice landing space for the packets right outside my door....:-) Is it BS2 or Propeller controlled?

    It seems like an immediate civillian use for scram jet technology. Launch a scram jet delivery vehicle from Hong Kong and have your goodies falling from the sky toward your home at Mach 5 within 4 hours.

    I just wonder how to deal with the landing.

    ++++++++++++
    In my humble opinion, someone is going to finally embrace some sort of regional wholesale network that is realistic and allows small business to retail items easily gotten and with a bit of profit. We can't keep turning everything we buy over to Amazon, EBay, Digikey, Mouser and so on.

    Just maybe EBay or Amazon will diversify into regional distribution centers with the bless of local governments.... just maybe....

    We are just feeding a huge corporate logistics beast that is inflating the price of everything we want to buy. The net result is to quit buying from afar, or to buy much less and less frequently. It is simply easier to explore hobby projects on a hacked wifi router than to buy the parts separately to build something similar in an SoC setup. I even get cables, a power supply, and an enclosure included AND can avoid all the shipping by buying over the counter.
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