Re: Discontinuing USPS FirstClass Mail Shipping Options
Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)
Posts: 23,514
Jen, does this also apply to Priority Mail, or just First Class?
-Phil
-Phil
Comments
Too many more questions and I'll need to get somebody with more knowledge to answer them. What I can tell you, is that throughout our staff, our team universally feels First Class International is a looser for Parallax and our customers. I've seen and felt enough frustration among our customers and sales staff.
Ken Gracey
Surely there are less expensive alternatives to UPS.
Amazon and others use some sort of hybrid approach where UPS hands it off to the postal service and it is cheaper.
It is called "UPS Mail Innovations" and is tracked door to door.
I just got an order from Dell Computer in this fashion. It was actually free shipping from Dell for a $20 item.
I would have had to pay UPS ground rates, I would not have bought it.
I got a small 5"x7" envelop back that weighed 1oz back and had a ridged item inside for postage due and usps said it was [First-Class Mail Parcel] and correct postage cost $2.32
IIRC, when I previously selected First Class shipping previously from Parallax, the website would remind me that there was no insurance for reduced cost shipping. Seems like it should still be an option for "gamblers" like David and me who are willing to take that chance on small items that are just barely worth ordering when postage is included. Maybe just make the warning bolder, in red, and make a customer click on an "I agree" box before selecting that shipping option.
-Phil
That First Class International has been removed as a shipping option simply means that I can no longer buy anything from Parallax. I am no longer a customer. I'm really sorry about this, but I am just a hobbyist. If there's no reasonable shipping option then I cannot continue this.
I wonder if there is any point for me being on the forum anymore, if I can't continue to buy the products. The alternative is of course other microcontrollers and Ebay as source.
Truly disappointed,
-Tor
I don't use UPS from Parallax because my orders are much higher value and mostly come via a US partner.
However, I only have small cost items delivered by UPS standard. Otherwise I don't buy, for the same reason as Tor. So I do hope UPS standard remains available for all the users of this service.
UPS (United Parcel Service, a commercial carrier like FedEx and DHL) and USPS (U.S. Postal Service) are two different things. First Class and Priority are also two different services, both offered by USPS, but not by UPS. That said, which are you referring to?
Also, USPS does offer International Priority service, in addition to International First Class. According to Ken, Priority Mail has not been discontinued, so that may mean the International Priority option is still available.
Anyway, I think there are some legitimate questions that Parallax needs to clarify further, since the various service options can be confusing.
-Phil
Quite a few distis now offer a "Free Delivery if over $XYZ" - I have no idea how they do it - clearly have screwed the freight costs way down.
It is also amazing how much on eBay is free-postage out of China, whatever creative things the Chinese are doing, it clearly is less than sending postage the other way - I suspect some 'reciprocal agreements' are being taken advantage of to do this.
We will all end up working for freight companies
I noticed on a recent PCB quote, the DHL freight was 14~18% (!) of the total price, for 1000+ orders.
If Parallax has bumped their Shipping column to $40, that has to have an impact.
UPS ground $13.20
UPS Next Day $72.35
UPS 2nd Day $31.93
UPS 3 day select $25.62
USPS Priority $7.15
From 476% to 48%. Bound to discourage one item, inexpensive purchases -
It would be less than $3.00 to ship a Quickstart as First Class Parcel (including the cost of a bubble wrap envelope).
Other than being weight limited and the 2 day delivery guarantee on Priority (which isn't actually guaranteed), First Class is all but identical to Priority. Same tracking system. same packaging requirements, etc.
You have benefits like free shipping for Parallax customers with Amazon Prime, free shipping over $35, broad exposure. I think you can have your existing storefront point in the background to Amazon Fulfillment).
It might be a worthwhile cost/benefit exercise for you to try.
http://www.savethepostoffice.com/how-new-service-standards-may-slow-down-much-more-mail-postal-service-saying
So while I do understand the challenges Parallax has, I hope a solution is found also for international orders.
Otherwise I'm afraid I might need to consider the Arduino route if I want to continue this hobby.
Edit: Forgot to mention that I've personally had no problems whatsoever with Parallax USPS International shipments (15-20 during the last few years), all have arrived within 1-2 weeks which is completely acceptable.
Ken, I'm confused as to how you lose money on USPS 1st class orders.
Does the post office somehow collect more from Parallax than what Parallax charges for postage - or does it have to do with overhead/handling costs?
Kenny's and Gordon's replies below explain it I guess. I assumed that you choose USPS 1st class and it got lost, you just lose out.
I know Parallax values it's customers and goes out of it's way to give good customer service. Too bad the post office reliability is slipping..
Can't speak for Parallax, but for many companies, small orders can lead to a loss because there is a minimum cost to fulfill any order, and freight charges don't always compensate. Label creation might be automated these days, but little else is (unless you're Amazon, where you've invested hundreds of millions in warehouse automation).
If it costs a baseline of $3 to fulfill any order, then the average freight needs to be $3 more than actual cost, or, the average ticket value of the order must be high enough that there's enough profit margin to cover the fulfillment costs. All this is easier to do with the higher priced shipping options, like Priority. Everyone knows First Class is supposed to be cheaper, so there isn't as much room to comfortably set a freight service charge into that price.
Some companies always tack a service charge, separate from shipping, onto the order. Others set a much higher minimum freight than it actually costs them. Still others give incentives for "free" shipping, such as requiring higher order minimums. And a few simply don't take orders under a certain dollar amount.
On the notion of Amazon Fulfillment: It's not a bad idea, but there's likely no savings in it. Amazon ALWAYS comes out ahead. They charge for each package, and they charge for your inventory. Of course you want enough inventory to cover sales, but then you're paying them to keep it for you. I think in the end most merchants use FBA to have a footprint on Amazon, rather than actually saving them fulfillment costs.
I've seen this more and more lately. Priority is now taking 4 or 5 days when it used to only take 2 or 3. 1st Class Mail is not being delivered (missing bills). In the last 3 months I've had to put several tracers on packages.
There is a long standing thread about this issue on the Adafruit Forums. Adafruit had to discontinue USPS delivery because they were losing too much money by having to reship packages.
You can't choose to not hold Parallax responsible because they are, legally, responsible for making sure you get your package.
Kenny
This is just about right. We tell the customer "no guarantee on USPS First Class" because the tracking is minimal to none and that the order is their responsibility - especially after it leaves the USA. However, we also want to provide good service. This means we need to resend the same package at our expense, otherwise the customer is not happy.
Also, take the example above with the $14.99 QuickStart. It costs us $14.99 to make a QuickStart. It's likely a returned item, Rev A or something similar (I don't know) for certain. It would be cheaper for us to simply toss it in the recycle bin than to ship it USPS First Class overseas, not to mention replacing it because it may not arrive.
Ken Gracey
Thanks Ken. Repeating from my modified post above, I know Parallax values it's customers and goes out of it's way to give good customer service.
See also: http://about.usps.com/manuals/spp/html/spp4_046.htm
PayPal, Etsy, eBay, and others that provide a selling platform for others use special wording in their TOS where the merchant agrees all responsibility for shipping loss rests with the merchant. That's an agreement between merchant and third-party biller, and is separate from the uniform commercial code. On the other side of the coin, PayPal (for instance) provides a seller guarantee that if certain minimum requirements are met, the merchant is insured against loss. Typically, they cancel the order, refund the buyer, but allow the merchant to keep the funds. There are a lot of fraud controls with this, so a buyer or seller who abuses these guarantees can easily find themselves kicked out of the service.
Interesting, and I wonder if this 3rd party insurance is actually helping drive a lowering of USPS service ?
If they know 'someone else' is covering this, they can employ fewer staff, and get less proactive on 'shrinkage'
Of course the bite in all this comes, when those 3rd parties cross some loss-threshold, and refuse to use USPS.
To be more specific, PayPal (and Etsy, among others), offer seller protection if you've used delivery confirmation, and the package shows delivery but the customer claims he or she never got it - it's not as uncommon as you may think. They don't cover you if the PO lost the package and was never delivered. You are still expected to have the standard carrier insurance for that.
Some buyers have taken this policy to get free stuff, then cry when they've done it once too often, and PayPal drops them -- and holds their funds for 180 days.
I have found that paying extra for the Priority or First Class (whatever it is called) is a waste of money as the standard service always arrives first or at the same time. When I suspected this, I had a supplier post two identical items on the same day, one via standard, and the other priority/first class. The standard arrived 3 days before the priority/first class. So I no longer waste $ thinking priority will be quicker.
Then again I have never lost a package, ever. For many years of shipments, long before I discovered Parallax. They always arrive. The single exception (from a different seller) that didn't arrive was because it was not actually sent - I'm pretty sure about that because the seller, the small shop, and all communication disappeared soon after.
From what Gordon writes (but I could be misunderstanding it), it sounds like some buyers (not necessarily Parallax' customers?) are mis-using Paypal buyer's gurarantee to circumvent the no-insured no-tracked shipments. If so, I for one don't need Paypal as an option for low-cost shipping. Credit card is what I've mostly been using anyway.
Then it's the possible issue if the low-cost shipping actually covers shipping and handling - it always seemed to me that what I paid was less than it "ought" to be according to USPS' pages. Usually some $6.88 or thereabouts.. although IIRC I got a QS once with shipping less than $3! Almost Ebay shipping. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't mind if Parallax adds $4 - $5 for the 'handling' part. It would still be much better than the no-option of $40 for shipping. As long as it's all part of "shipping and handling" that part of the cost will not trigger the tax+charges+more tax nightmare which doubles the price as soon as the declared value is over a certain limit. So I would be able to continue adding parts until I'm just barely below the limit (the labels are scrutinized by the Norwegian postal handlers and compared against a monthly currency exchange rate given out by the national customs department).
-Tor
In short: The more expensive shipping options aren't faster. Tracking is pretty much a waste anyway. Even UPS (or FedEx) won't arrive any faster for me either, because they don't have domestic handling in Norway - it goes by normal post anyway. Only DHL has that, and they're *fast*. But of course - I don't want to order a QuickStart board or a bag of capacitors and have it shipped by courier.
-Tor