Yes, I do have an update. One of the things we've been trying to do for Wendy is get her up to Lake Tahoe to see the lake and visit her son whom we have not seen in over a year. Thanks to the generosity of everyone here she was able to do that and has posted some information on it on her page here: http://www.savagecircuits.com/content.php?231-A-Surprise-A-Trip-A-Respite
Also, one of the things we knew was going to happen was that with a whole new round of chemo and the related testing we knew the big medical bills were coming and they have arrived. Wendy's biggest fear was that with us having to pay out so much in taxes this year that the part of her medical bills not covered by insurance would be overwhelming. You wouldn't believe (unless you've been through it) how much "cancer" medical bills are. It seems any time the word cancer is mentioned the cost triples. Of course the insurance only pays a portion so we're left with the rest. Again, thanks to the generosity of many this burden has been lightened.
Next week starts a new round of chemo, so she'll update her page with how things are going then, but I did want to take a moment to stop in and update everyone on how your donations have helped and say thanks once again. I've taken some time off work to spend some time with Wendy and get her to a few more places as soon as can be arranged. I know that some of her family are coming out to visit soon and I think next month my family will fly out. Difficult since they're all on the opposite coast from us, but we're working to make it happen. Peace to you all and our sincerest thanks!
Thanks for the update. Sounds like the spring is going to be pretty busy with family coming, but then that is a good thing if the family drama level remains at a reasonable level. Hopefully the chemo is not too bad, or at least they break out the "reel good drugs" to get through it.......
Saw the Tahoe blog and pictures. The Sierras, one of the few things I miss about Ca. Could not even consider going back there given the current political climate. They even brought the man from Med Fly back again. Wow..... While we don't quite have the trees that Tahoe has, we do have a nice route (when not washed out) between Prescott and here that runs north and west before heading southwest AZ69 to Az89 to home. The terrain runs from pines to scrub pines and through lots of switchbacks as it transitions gradually to full on desert. Really nice ride and not a lot of guard rails to break up the views (or drops). But I digress a bit. Still amazing how nice the lake still looks. Between the burger and the ribs in your pictures, kinda felt like a junkyard dog pullin' on my chain to stick with the plan in spite of all that cardiac goodness on display there.........
Thanks for asking. Sorry I haven't replied sooner but I took a vacation so Wendy and I could spend some time with family from NY and get her out to see some places while she is still capable of travelling. She's been a bit sick lately. She posted an update on her site page.
Hey there - just wanted to touch base and thank our forum members for the occasional refresh of this thread, and the ongoing support the community has been able to provide Chris and Wendy.
I can tell you it has a very positive impact on them and they are very thankful. Chris and Wendy are a humble, easy-going couple and ideal recipients for this kind of support.
I haven't seen Chris in a month, just a couple of messages here and there. It turns out that his ten-year anniversary at Parallax arrived just in time to use his paid month-long sabbatical with Wendy. Perfect timing!
Hey there - just wanted to touch base and thank our forum members for the occasional refresh of this thread, and the ongoing support the community has been able to provide Chris and Wendy.
I can tell you it has a very positive impact on them and they are very thankful. Chris and Wendy are a humble, easy-going couple and ideal recipients for this kind of support.
I haven't seen Chris in a month, just a couple of messages here and there. It turns out that his ten-year anniversary at Parallax arrived just in time to use his paid month-long sabbatical with Wendy. Perfect timing!
Ken Gracey
One of the many great benefits of working at Parallax! Great support from the company as well!
We both really appreciate it. The cancer is bad enough, but the medical bills add insult to injury with what they charge. I posted an article showing what I mean and giving a good example of why we appreciate everything that everyone has done for us.
You don't have to take this nonsense (I'd use another word but can't here) lying down. A few years back, I ran into a similar situation when I had a kidney stone. It was a Saturday, and the urologist made arrangements for me at the local hospital for a CAT scan. I went right to radiology without coming close to the ER. Long story short: the hospital billed me $2500 for the five minutes I was being scanned. (My insurance deductible was $5000.) I knew from experience (other kidney stones) that a different radiology center would have done it for $800. So I complained to the billing department, who countered that the amount was fair, since it was a Saturday and that "emergency services" don't come cheap. I tried getting my insurance provider involved, but they claimed that the charges were in line with their reimbursement contract with the hospital. So I rebelled. I wrote the billing office and the hospital commissioners (it's a public hospital) that I would not pay the $2500, period, citing the other radiology center's rates. I also threatened a letter to the editor of the local newspaper about their predatory billing. But I offered them an out. I would be happy to settle for half the billed amount. I didn't plea poverty, only principle, and they accepted my offer.
It's a shame that healthcare expenses have to be negotiated like buying a used car. But it's an unfortunate fact of life in this country. The lesson I learned was to squeak like a greasy wheel, stand firm in my convictions of fairness, and give the billing agent an out that they're likely to accept.
Good luck with your struggles. The emotional toll that illness and end-of-life issues take is bad enough, without so-called "providers" having to gouge you.
Chris,
Try not to feel hostage to the situation. You have the right to negotiate these prices down and push back. But I can also sympathize with the fact that you feel being attacked when you are most exposed.
Sadly, the insurance industry in the USA has grown to something like 7.5% of the national GDP. And along with it has the habit of the medical community to bill high and then accept something less via negotiation or the patient going bankrupt.
Doctors now have their office paperwork dominated by filling insurance payments and bargaining full-time for somewhere between 50 and 75 cents on the dollar. Hospitals are doing the same.
And the same insurance industry is adding insult to injury by malpractise insurance premiums that are dominant item in a medical practice's overhead.
How do I know all this? Well, my dad was chairman of the Californa AMA for 5 years and a member of Blue Cross of California's board of directors among several other lead roles in medicine. I spent most of my life watching the insurance industry take over the cash flow of medicine in the USA and am dismayed.
Try and find some support group or legal council that will push back for you. I don't see any reason one should be forced to bankrupt their family because of a medical crisis. It just isn't right.
+++++++++
BTW, the Homestead Act of 1862 might apply to any real estate that you call home. If so, declaring the property a homestead may allow a once in a lifetime exemption from any future bankruptcy for all or part of its value.
And, you are entitled to tax-free gifts for medical care in unlimited amounts. Tax-free gifts for use other than education or medical care may be limited currently to less than $14,000USA per year per source.
Thanks for all the useful information. One of the things I think they count on is that people dealing with things like cancer rarely have the time/resources to try and fight the system, much less have any knowledge of their options. One thing that I posted about in the article linked below (toward the end) was that Sutter Medical out here has been absorbing all the smaller practices so that they have all but monopolized everything available. While doing this they have increased their pricing every year to the point that we almost lost Wendy's doctors because our insurance (Blue Shield) had threatened to drop Sutter because of the price gouging. This would have meant we would have to have found new doctors in the middle of this thing.
Up to now we've been so busy just dealing with things and trying to get Wendy through her bucket list that we haven't really thought about any options we might have for the medical bills. I still have my family coming out soon to visit, so I won't be able to look into things at least until they've gone back to NY. But I do appreciate the information and if I can put it to use, I certainly will. Thanks again.
If you are interested in further details, try searching "Homestead Exclusion" with your state's name added to the search. Wikipedia does not provide a complete list of state laws and apparently this exclusion is different for each and every state.
+++++++
Are you willing to PM a mailing address for a private donation? PayPal doesn't work well for me due to international boundaries. I don't need a receipt or any returned paperwork as this isn't taxible or a tax deduction.
As Phil says, for those un/under-insured, or those who want to reduce out of pocket in a co-pay, contact the chargemaster office of the hospital and try to work out a negotiation. Paying $1250 for a $2500 procedure is likely the same or more than an insurer would pay, so the hospital is still ahead of the game. Remember that the amount you pay -- not necessarily billed -- counts for your deductible.
Just contacting the billing office may not be enough. You need to speak to the chargemaster.
Chris, if the co-pays are a problem, there are a number of ombudsman or public advocate organizations that you can turn to for help. They tend to be local, so ask around in your county for a start. They might be able to help you negotiate a lower overall fee. You may have this already, but the Sacramento area ombudsman is at:
If you feel there is unwarranted gouging you can file a complaint.
And (I hate to bring this up) if your wife has life insurance, there's a good possibility it will pay out all or at least half early, given this is a terminal situation.
If you are interested in further details, try searching "Homestead Exclusion" with your state's name added to the search. Wikipedia does not provide a complete list of state laws and apparently this exclusion is different for each and every state.
No, don't try researching bankruptcy options on your own. California has an extraordinarily confusing double-table list of exemptions that are exclusive to one another. Too many variables to consider whether or not it's wise to take a homeowner's exemption.
Most BK attorneys will give a half-hour or hour free consultation. Might as well use their good will.
It has been an interesting view of evolution from inside the medical rabbit hole for the last 25 years.
What you are seeing with all the buyouts are not really willing buyouts mostly. This is part of the affordable care act, and these ever expanding groups are all what are known as ACOs or Accountable Care Organizations. This has some very deep ramifications for healthcare as a whole and providers especially. Among them will be requirements affecting reimbursements. If the Organization gets to many complaints regarding crappy patient satisfaction scores, they will loose a percentage of the total. If they have to many readmits, they will not be paid for these. If..... If..... and on it goes. And of course the paperwork is voluminous and at times rather invasive. Yep, the paperless office will be here.... once we have de-forested the world achieving it.
Somehow, even in his wildest imaginings, Lewis Carroll would have been hard pressed indeed to come up with a more twisted tail than the current system of care than we have now. Sadly, I know from direct experience and comparison that we still have the best medical care and expertise in the world. Just f'ed up by all the rules, providers, payers, and all the bureaucracy that has inserted itself into the mix. As to the truth, I doubt we will ever be able to get a straight answer as to the actual cost of care less the cost of all the layers of Smile encapsulating it.
As to financial protection, use a reputable attorney. Since I really D.K.S. about that stuff, all I should do is keep you guys in our thoughts and prayers............
Hi Chris,
That $62k for two nights room is shocking rip-off! The rest of the bill, although also seemingly punitive in the number of entries, actually looked more reasonable prices.
Although I don't live in USA, I was forced to use a private hospital for my one surgery episode. The whole package cost about NZ$4500, including one night in a single room - It had it's own bathroom with shower/toilet. If I remember rightly, the surgeon was the smallest part, only $500 or so, with the room/facilities being the biggest part of the price and the anaesthetist in the middle. I came out pleasantly surprised with the value for money and totally grateful of the results.
PS: I'm impressed that that Paypal service actually doesn't require scripting. It didn't work initially for me but after unblocking a couple of third party references to paypal on savagecircuits it came right.
I know this may sound petty in the circumstances but it did make the difference for me. I've pulled out of many websites, and their related financial activities, because they originally had usable scriptless functionality but changed to become unusable.
Frankly, I can't understand how your system could have ended up like that without people getting up on the barricades and all that...
Socialized healthcare meant that my brother, who was blue when he was born in 1969, survived thanks to largely experimental surgery we couldn't have afforded, even if we had been rich back then.
It also meant that my father got the double-bypass he needed a few years ago.(Any 'insurance' would have been destroyed years earlier stopping the nerve degeneration he was suffering)
Those days from I heard that he needed surgery, till he was back home were... not good...
I know that I can't fix your system, or help everyone that needs it, but...
I pick one or two every year and try to do something to help.
I'd personally prefer that we all try to keep this thread about compassion for the Savage family than wander off into the pros and cons of socialized medicine. I certainly have strong views of my own, but I am not going to express them here. I just presume that is yet another political topic that is not within the Forum's guidelines.
Please do not go off-topic in this thread, or off on tangents about the US medical system. Let's keep this a place for well-wishes and news about Wendy.
Once again I want to thank everyone for their support. I also want to say that I hope I am not misleading anyone with the EOB pages I scanned and posted on our website.
The $62,000+ for the room and the $8,000+ from the recent ER visit are before the insurance. These are the amounts that were billed to the insurance and then there is some discount to the insurance company of which I don't know the details, but I believe is a percentage of which some percentage of the remaining balance gets paid by us. The thing is that with these really ridiculously high charges, the out of pocket expenses are relatively high as well. The insurance doesn't pay as much as one would hope considering what you pay into it.
Now I will stop on that as it will likely lead into more discussion about the current state of things and that is not my intention. I merely wanted to say that we're not responsible for the full amounts in the EOB, even though the ridiculous charges affect what we do pay.
I invite anyone who wants to discuss the medical stuff to comment on the articles I linked on Wendy's page on my website. That would certainly be acceptable since those are my posts on the financials and not her normal updates.
Getting back on topic, Wendy will be posting a new article today with where she's at. I just asked her as she's been thinking hard about what she wants to do lately. So check her page later if you're interested and she will have an update. Thanks again everyone!
Chris, do not feel bad about posting any of that info. I know exactly where you are coming from. My brother was lying in the hospital with stage 4 lung cancer. The bills for the chemo and radiation came in while he was still there. $162K. No Insurance, no Obamacare.
Comments
Never mind, missed the link......
Yes, I do have an update. One of the things we've been trying to do for Wendy is get her up to Lake Tahoe to see the lake and visit her son whom we have not seen in over a year. Thanks to the generosity of everyone here she was able to do that and has posted some information on it on her page here: http://www.savagecircuits.com/content.php?231-A-Surprise-A-Trip-A-Respite
Also, one of the things we knew was going to happen was that with a whole new round of chemo and the related testing we knew the big medical bills were coming and they have arrived. Wendy's biggest fear was that with us having to pay out so much in taxes this year that the part of her medical bills not covered by insurance would be overwhelming. You wouldn't believe (unless you've been through it) how much "cancer" medical bills are. It seems any time the word cancer is mentioned the cost triples. Of course the insurance only pays a portion so we're left with the rest. Again, thanks to the generosity of many this burden has been lightened.
Next week starts a new round of chemo, so she'll update her page with how things are going then, but I did want to take a moment to stop in and update everyone on how your donations have helped and say thanks once again. I've taken some time off work to spend some time with Wendy and get her to a few more places as soon as can be arranged. I know that some of her family are coming out to visit soon and I think next month my family will fly out. Difficult since they're all on the opposite coast from us, but we're working to make it happen. Peace to you all and our sincerest thanks!
Thanks for the update. Sounds like the spring is going to be pretty busy with family coming, but then that is a good thing if the family drama level remains at a reasonable level. Hopefully the chemo is not too bad, or at least they break out the "reel good drugs" to get through it.......
Good luck and best wishes to you both.
F
God bless you and Wendy and all of your families & friends at this very difficult time, Chris.
Saw the Tahoe blog and pictures. The Sierras, one of the few things I miss about Ca. Could not even consider going back there given the current political climate. They even brought the man from Med Fly back again. Wow..... While we don't quite have the trees that Tahoe has, we do have a nice route (when not washed out) between Prescott and here that runs north and west before heading southwest AZ69 to Az89 to home. The terrain runs from pines to scrub pines and through lots of switchbacks as it transitions gradually to full on desert. Really nice ride and not a lot of guard rails to break up the views (or drops). But I digress a bit. Still amazing how nice the lake still looks. Between the burger and the ribs in your pictures, kinda felt like a junkyard dog pullin' on my chain to stick with the plan in spite of all that cardiac goodness on display there.........
'til the next trip.....
Thinking about Wendy, you and your family... anything you would like to share as an update?
Tim
Here's a link: http://www.savagecircuits.com/content.php?12-Wendy-s-Breast-Cancer-Benefit
Thanks to everyone for your overwhelming support! We really appreciate it.
I can tell you it has a very positive impact on them and they are very thankful. Chris and Wendy are a humble, easy-going couple and ideal recipients for this kind of support.
I haven't seen Chris in a month, just a couple of messages here and there. It turns out that his ten-year anniversary at Parallax arrived just in time to use his paid month-long sabbatical with Wendy. Perfect timing!
Ken Gracey
One of the many great benefits of working at Parallax! Great support from the company as well!
We both really appreciate it. The cancer is bad enough, but the medical bills add insult to injury with what they charge. I posted an article showing what I mean and giving a good example of why we appreciate everything that everyone has done for us.
http://www.savagecircuits.com/content.php?238-Medical-Treatment-Is-Expensive!!!
You don't have to take this nonsense (I'd use another word but can't here) lying down. A few years back, I ran into a similar situation when I had a kidney stone. It was a Saturday, and the urologist made arrangements for me at the local hospital for a CAT scan. I went right to radiology without coming close to the ER. Long story short: the hospital billed me $2500 for the five minutes I was being scanned. (My insurance deductible was $5000.) I knew from experience (other kidney stones) that a different radiology center would have done it for $800. So I complained to the billing department, who countered that the amount was fair, since it was a Saturday and that "emergency services" don't come cheap. I tried getting my insurance provider involved, but they claimed that the charges were in line with their reimbursement contract with the hospital. So I rebelled. I wrote the billing office and the hospital commissioners (it's a public hospital) that I would not pay the $2500, period, citing the other radiology center's rates. I also threatened a letter to the editor of the local newspaper about their predatory billing. But I offered them an out. I would be happy to settle for half the billed amount. I didn't plea poverty, only principle, and they accepted my offer.
It's a shame that healthcare expenses have to be negotiated like buying a used car. But it's an unfortunate fact of life in this country. The lesson I learned was to squeak like a greasy wheel, stand firm in my convictions of fairness, and give the billing agent an out that they're likely to accept.
Good luck with your struggles. The emotional toll that illness and end-of-life issues take is bad enough, without so-called "providers" having to gouge you.
Respectfully,
-Phil
Try not to feel hostage to the situation. You have the right to negotiate these prices down and push back. But I can also sympathize with the fact that you feel being attacked when you are most exposed.
Sadly, the insurance industry in the USA has grown to something like 7.5% of the national GDP. And along with it has the habit of the medical community to bill high and then accept something less via negotiation or the patient going bankrupt.
Doctors now have their office paperwork dominated by filling insurance payments and bargaining full-time for somewhere between 50 and 75 cents on the dollar. Hospitals are doing the same.
And the same insurance industry is adding insult to injury by malpractise insurance premiums that are dominant item in a medical practice's overhead.
How do I know all this? Well, my dad was chairman of the Californa AMA for 5 years and a member of Blue Cross of California's board of directors among several other lead roles in medicine. I spent most of my life watching the insurance industry take over the cash flow of medicine in the USA and am dismayed.
Try and find some support group or legal council that will push back for you. I don't see any reason one should be forced to bankrupt their family because of a medical crisis. It just isn't right.
+++++++++
BTW, the Homestead Act of 1862 might apply to any real estate that you call home. If so, declaring the property a homestead may allow a once in a lifetime exemption from any future bankruptcy for all or part of its value.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_exemption
And, you are entitled to tax-free gifts for medical care in unlimited amounts. Tax-free gifts for use other than education or medical care may be limited currently to less than $14,000USA per year per source.
Thanks for all the useful information. One of the things I think they count on is that people dealing with things like cancer rarely have the time/resources to try and fight the system, much less have any knowledge of their options. One thing that I posted about in the article linked below (toward the end) was that Sutter Medical out here has been absorbing all the smaller practices so that they have all but monopolized everything available. While doing this they have increased their pricing every year to the point that we almost lost Wendy's doctors because our insurance (Blue Shield) had threatened to drop Sutter because of the price gouging. This would have meant we would have to have found new doctors in the middle of this thing.
Up to now we've been so busy just dealing with things and trying to get Wendy through her bucket list that we haven't really thought about any options we might have for the medical bills. I still have my family coming out soon to visit, so I won't be able to look into things at least until they've gone back to NY. But I do appreciate the information and if I can put it to use, I certainly will. Thanks again.
http://www.savagecircuits.com/content.php?222-Fun-times-in-the-ER-(and-other-ways-to-waste-your-entire-day)
+++++++
Are you willing to PM a mailing address for a private donation? PayPal doesn't work well for me due to international boundaries. I don't need a receipt or any returned paperwork as this isn't taxible or a tax deduction.
Just contacting the billing office may not be enough. You need to speak to the chargemaster.
Chris, if the co-pays are a problem, there are a number of ombudsman or public advocate organizations that you can turn to for help. They tend to be local, so ask around in your county for a start. They might be able to help you negotiate a lower overall fee. You may have this already, but the Sacramento area ombudsman is at:
http://www.dhhs.saccounty.net/Pages/Ombudsman.aspx
If you feel there is unwarranted gouging you can file a complaint.
And (I hate to bring this up) if your wife has life insurance, there's a good possibility it will pay out all or at least half early, given this is a terminal situation.
No, don't try researching bankruptcy options on your own. California has an extraordinarily confusing double-table list of exemptions that are exclusive to one another. Too many variables to consider whether or not it's wise to take a homeowner's exemption.
Most BK attorneys will give a half-hour or hour free consultation. Might as well use their good will.
It has been an interesting view of evolution from inside the medical rabbit hole for the last 25 years.
What you are seeing with all the buyouts are not really willing buyouts mostly. This is part of the affordable care act, and these ever expanding groups are all what are known as ACOs or Accountable Care Organizations. This has some very deep ramifications for healthcare as a whole and providers especially. Among them will be requirements affecting reimbursements. If the Organization gets to many complaints regarding crappy patient satisfaction scores, they will loose a percentage of the total. If they have to many readmits, they will not be paid for these. If..... If..... and on it goes. And of course the paperwork is voluminous and at times rather invasive. Yep, the paperless office will be here.... once we have de-forested the world achieving it.
Somehow, even in his wildest imaginings, Lewis Carroll would have been hard pressed indeed to come up with a more twisted tail than the current system of care than we have now. Sadly, I know from direct experience and comparison that we still have the best medical care and expertise in the world. Just f'ed up by all the rules, providers, payers, and all the bureaucracy that has inserted itself into the mix. As to the truth, I doubt we will ever be able to get a straight answer as to the actual cost of care less the cost of all the layers of Smile encapsulating it.
As to financial protection, use a reputable attorney. Since I really D.K.S. about that stuff, all I should do is keep you guys in our thoughts and prayers............
G'night
FF
That $62k for two nights room is shocking rip-off! The rest of the bill, although also seemingly punitive in the number of entries, actually looked more reasonable prices.
Although I don't live in USA, I was forced to use a private hospital for my one surgery episode. The whole package cost about NZ$4500, including one night in a single room - It had it's own bathroom with shower/toilet. If I remember rightly, the surgeon was the smallest part, only $500 or so, with the room/facilities being the biggest part of the price and the anaesthetist in the middle. I came out pleasantly surprised with the value for money and totally grateful of the results.
I know this may sound petty in the circumstances but it did make the difference for me. I've pulled out of many websites, and their related financial activities, because they originally had usable scriptless functionality but changed to become unusable.
Socialized healthcare meant that my brother, who was blue when he was born in 1969, survived thanks to largely experimental surgery we couldn't have afforded, even if we had been rich back then.
It also meant that my father got the double-bypass he needed a few years ago.(Any 'insurance' would have been destroyed years earlier stopping the nerve degeneration he was suffering)
Those days from I heard that he needed surgery, till he was back home were... not good...
I know that I can't fix your system, or help everyone that needs it, but...
I pick one or two every year and try to do something to help.
If you haven't already, watch the Michael Moore doco-film "Sicko". It precisely documents the moment that system was initiated.
Please do not go off-topic in this thread, or off on tangents about the US medical system. Let's keep this a place for well-wishes and news about Wendy.
The $62,000+ for the room and the $8,000+ from the recent ER visit are before the insurance. These are the amounts that were billed to the insurance and then there is some discount to the insurance company of which I don't know the details, but I believe is a percentage of which some percentage of the remaining balance gets paid by us. The thing is that with these really ridiculously high charges, the out of pocket expenses are relatively high as well. The insurance doesn't pay as much as one would hope considering what you pay into it.
Now I will stop on that as it will likely lead into more discussion about the current state of things and that is not my intention. I merely wanted to say that we're not responsible for the full amounts in the EOB, even though the ridiculous charges affect what we do pay.
I invite anyone who wants to discuss the medical stuff to comment on the articles I linked on Wendy's page on my website. That would certainly be acceptable since those are my posts on the financials and not her normal updates.
Getting back on topic, Wendy will be posting a new article today with where she's at. I just asked her as she's been thinking hard about what she wants to do lately. So check her page later if you're interested and she will have an update. Thanks again everyone!