My point was that if it ever happened that, say, Ubuntu was used by some huge percentage of the worlds computer users then those users would probably not know or care about those angry developers. They would just use, say, Ubuntu in the same way people use Windows now.
An example is blittled here who is only unnerved a little. (Not getting at you blittled but the "little" part amazes me)
Android is a case in point here. It's OK, might as well be tracked and monitored by an Android phone as an iPhone or Windows phone. I have nothing to hide. It's all OK.
That user licence basically says that Microsoft is watching absolutely everything you do - every web page, every keystroke, heck, even the words I type on this very post! Well, I happen to believe Microsoft is the most wonderful organisation...
No, seriously, ever since computers were connected to the internet this has been possible. You just never really knew if it was happening, and at least Microsoft are up front about it. The positive side - a couple of times I tried to search for the control panel about three times, and up pops a one line survey about how easy was it to find the control panel. On the negative side, when I do internet banking, they will in theory be able to view this. But then again, any browser could be reporting back what you are doing as it is already on the internet. And my bank has already thought of this and there is another security layer where every transaction change results in an SMS to my phone and a number I have to type back in.
If you want total security (eg designing a circuit which your competitor might steal), perhaps use a machine that is never connected to the internet. No wifi, no ethernet cable, and to install programs, copy them across on a USB disk. To export data, do it as plain text or a pdf or even an old fashioned printout on a piece of paper.
Another idea - having played around with the ESP8266 wifi modules I have a new appreciation for how simple the internet is behind the scenes. It is just text going back and forth - open a connection, send or receive text (the exact number of bytes has to be specified) and close the connection. So it could be possible to design a filter.
Or just give up on the idea of privacy. Many of my friends post their entire lives on facebook. Google takes a picture of my property regularly, both from the outside, and from above with satellites and planes. Maybe personal privacy doesn't matter any more? Corporate privacy, on the other hand, is extremely important. This Microsoft agreement is very useful as it could help focus those responsible for security in an organisation to really ask if their systems are secure.
I REALLY want to use Windows 10 after hearing that they can spy on you! We now have the privilege of allowing Microsoft to watch our every action for only a "small" yearly consideration! But does anyone doubt that they weren't already spying on you?
Is Microsoft trying to commit suicide? I hope so!
EDIT: According to one source, this will only be in place for the Technical Preview, but it still sounds scary.
But to be fair, it sounds more like WinCE, which may make you wince:
A note of caution -- the version of Windows 10 that the Pi 2 ends up running could be quite different to the normal, consumer-centric version of Windows 10 that most computers will be running. The Pi-compatible edition will be part of Microsoft's Windows Developer Program for IoT (Internet of Things), which is concerned with bringing Windows development tools to small devices. "This is Windows 10 for IT applications," Upton said.
As such, Windows 10 on Raspberry Pi is unlikely to appeal to ordinary consumers looking for the familiar Windows OS, but could appeal to geeky types who love the thought of delving into Microsoft's developer tools. Microsoft says it will be divulging more information in the next few months, so stay tuned.
Is the WEI (experience index) still available in Win10? It was a handy benchmark in Vista & Win7, but they made it harder to get to in Win 8 and 8.1, as though it was being phased out. Just curious if it still lives, and if so, did your system score change when you went from Win8 to Win10?
A good bit of advice on that forum: If your PC (ex: laptop) s running only on battery power, then you will need to connect it's AC adapter first or WEI will not run.
I am unnerved a little. Like ElectroDude mentioned this license probably will only be in the Technical review. That actually makes sense since Microsoft will want to know how Windows 10 behaves in any situation and that requires invasive snooping. Besides if Microsoft isn't looking the NSA is. I treat anything that is hooked up to the internet as something that is completely open to the public so I'm careful about what I post and use every safeguard I can think of when doing a transaction. This is true whether I use Windows or Linux.
Heater, if the license does not change then I will be unnerved enough to not use Windows 10 and go to Linux.
Heater, if the license does not change then I will be unnerved enough to not use Windows 10 and go to Linux.
I'm not sure why you are directing that statement at me and I'm under a lot of pressure not to talk about such things here on the forum. Some people find my views on the matter annoying for some reason. But here we go...
To my mind the license does not matter. If the code you are running is not open source it's very hard to tell what it may do and when.
That is not to say that you personally should be reading and checking over all the source code in your system, that is clearly impossible. But the world is big enough that somebody somewhere will be looking at it from time to time.
All in all I'd stay away from it in the same way the Trojan's should have rejected that horse thing from the Greeks.
Hope it isn't too stiff. I share most of Heaters concerns, maybe a shade less vocal about them, and more pragmatic regarding OS use.
Similar advocacy impacted me in the 90's which led first to IRIX, which I have no regrets other than I'm not running it today, then Linux on an old Pentium 90.
Best move I ever made.
The subtle bit in play here is it is not so important that everyone do OSS, nor build code, etc...
It is very important that they can.
My current professional role favors win64. I'm good at it, and it pays me, and others buy licenses. No worries.
At home, I run Mac OS and now more Linux because I got a Pi.
The number of times Linux has been there to save my Smile, or help me do something expensive cheap is high. Totally worth it, and I still run a lot of win64.
If anything, give OSS a go no matter what you run. It runs everywhere and the money you save, skills you gain will just keep paying off.
Privacy in an interconnected time is a growing issue. I personally don't care much, so long as I get good value in return. Google generally does this. An open book OS with ADS likely will not.
But I have a good shot at avoiding most of it, should I care more, and I don't think anyone really cares enough about me to be a problem.
The advocacy is good. If it gets people developing those high value skills, bring it on.
But also don't feel bad about what you run either. I sure don't and would expect others to do the same.
If you do somehow get that nagging feeling... jump in. You can be awesome in 6 months or less. And never, ever pay again...
Gotta say I warmed up greatly to Win 8.1 thanks to the HP tablet that is the subject of another thread here (and which was undoubtedly MS's hope and intent when they gave away the OS for free). If I knew for certain that all my Win7 apps and drivers would work in Win10, I'd probably upgrade my laptops today.
I liked Doug's post (#72). RPi is a great way to jump into Linux. It wasn't my first Linux experience, but it was definitely the best. Even without another reason to purchase a RPi, one ought to do it for the free Mathematica.
I've been enjoying Win8.1 on my HP tablet and on my ASUS 2-in-1. It works fine on both of those for what I need/want them to do. I may even try a Win X (sorry, can't resist) somewhere!
I have Win7 running on a well endowed laptop and it does what I need it to do hosting a lot of Windows only software (most of the FPGA suites).
I have a Mac Mini running OS X as my main desktop. It also has Parallels with a Win7 VM and a Linux VM. I have an older Mac Mini that is currently looking for a job around the house.
Various Linux flavors running on a laptop, a desktop and several SBC's - they all do what they need to do.
Since I'm using all the popular OS flavors, I'm not sure if that allows me to complain about any/all of them or forces me to support them all.
Use the tools you need and the tools you feel comfortable with. Unless you do something REALLY stupid, the sun will still come up in the morning and nobody should think any less of you! If you get reall upset because someone has an opinion that differs from yours then you really need a new hobby or just shouldn't interact with people!
Yeah win8.1 really works well on the HP Stream 7, where the small form factor and touch screen make the modern UI actually useful. I'm not so hot about it on the work laptop that I have to use to run a few newish hoggy applications; there it's just a nuisance and only usable because I have ClassicShell installed. Several of the Stream 7 users at my place of employment (who are users because I grokked everyone to its existence) have done the hovering finger thing over the ClassicShell install button, but nobody including myself has felt the need to actually pull that trigger and install it yet.
Yeah win8.1 really works well on the HP Stream 7, where the small form factor and touch screen make the modern UI actually useful. I'm not so hot about it on the work laptop...
Interesting comments! One thing that seems to be constantly glazed over in these "Windows 10 discussions" is the fact that when the second year hits, you will then be held hostage by MS "Windows as a Service" fees. Same thing you see these recent Pirates doing - locking your data/system then demanding $$ to "unlock" it - only MS now makes it "official".
"I want my Windows 7 system back." - Sorry Sir, that's not possible. You need to make your PAYMENT to get your system back under YOUR control so you can use it.....
Quite so. Whenever I say such things I get severely reprimanded around here though.
In general I agree with what you post more often than not, and Paul Sr. has a very good point. The last thing I want is another monthly or yearly service fee. As for being "severely reprimanded", I guess you could call it that, but to be fair it only seems to be when you get a little um...over enthusiastic with your post. You're not alone though. When I posted my opinion of having Apple force me to have certain apps on my iPhone it was deleted. Not that I'm complaining about it, Parallax has the right to control what goes on their forum.
If they use it to target ads, then its not just for the technical review version.
MS will save the NSA heaps - they just need to monitor (or infiltrate) MS to get all the info they desire.
They are also monitoring SMS and phone calls, so now the banks and other providers who send SMS passwords are no longer secure from MS at least.
With all that info held by MS, they will become the hackers target of choice - hackers include corrupt goverments and we have heard what some of them have been accused of lately.
And now we will be asked to pay yearly to keep that data about us - oh sorry, use our software.
Next Intel will be charging us annually for using the '86 processor chip
Didn't MS promise free upgrades back in the days of DOS? And include "multitasking operating system" in the description?
If I recall, they eventually changed the release number, and no longer honored the "free upgrades" thing, even thought the original functionality sold was never delievered. The original design would not allow the proper implementeation, (which gave rise to PC software "hacking") and required a redesign, which was sold as a new product. Do I remember this correctly?
I don't trust "free" when it costs money, and I don't trust "upgrades" that don't actually fix a problem, particularly ones that cause more issues.
I'm sure a futher employer will have windws 10 infrastructure, and I will hapily use it. But I would be very cautious about using it with anything of value of mine.
... offering free upgrades to Windows 10 to all Windows users, regardless of whether they are running genuine copies of the software.
...
Terry Myerson, who runs Microsoft's operating systems unit, announced the plan at the WinHEC technology conference in Shenzhen, China.
"We are upgrading all qualified PCs, genuine and non-genuine, to Windows 10," he said in a telephone interview with Reuters. The plan is to "re-engage" with the hundreds of millions of users of Windows in China, he said, without elaboration.
No details about exactly what this means outside of China, but still interesting none-the-less.
In other news, Chinese phone maker Xiaomi and Microsoft are working to release Windows 10 as an alternative to Android on phones already in production.
I don't seriously believe they will go to a subscription model in the US.
Most likely outcome is free to upgrade, because they really need to shake off the WIn 7 and XP users. Personally, it will take a lot to get me off 7. 8 didn't cut it.
Over time, they will charge for it maybe, but just to get users on, or with computer purchases, etc...
If anything, they won't move to a subscription, until they've got a very serious majority on Win10, which I'll bet has the foundations for subscription done, and tested.
No worries yet. And none at all, if you are fluent in other OSes.
"As for Windows 10 for PCs, the OS requires a lowly 800x600 resolution 7 display. The same UEFI and Secure Boot requirements as its mobile version, 1GB of RAM and 16GB of storage for 32-bit installs, 2GB of RAM and 20GB of storage for 64-bit, DirectX 9 graphics, and a minimum of a power and volume control for buttons, with Start and rotation lock buttons being optional."
I, among many, told "those other people, because I don't know who said what" so!
First, they will do this. Then there will be "incentives" for locked down, exclusive hardware, and a spiff for some extra feature, or bit of tech included. Then we will see, essentially disposable machines.
People like us will still be running what we want, but for those, "hey, I want to try it!" people, life will get a lot harder not being able to boot into an OS, or a live distribution. Not to mention utilities I use all the time. I'm sure you do too.
From there, the OS can leverage the locked down machine to enforce drivers, then applications, and finally, it's the store or nothing.
Sometime in the 00's, I wrote a few essays about this, and how a very likely and plausible end game is cell phone like computing.
This is step one.
And since companies expect growth... you can bet something like this roadmap is on the board in quite a few places. Nice way to build an enduring business, from their perspective.
Comments
Yes, quite so.
My point was that if it ever happened that, say, Ubuntu was used by some huge percentage of the worlds computer users then those users would probably not know or care about those angry developers. They would just use, say, Ubuntu in the same way people use Windows now.
An example is blittled here who is only unnerved a little. (Not getting at you blittled but the "little" part amazes me)
Android is a case in point here. It's OK, might as well be tracked and monitored by an Android phone as an iPhone or Windows phone. I have nothing to hide. It's all OK.
No, seriously, ever since computers were connected to the internet this has been possible. You just never really knew if it was happening, and at least Microsoft are up front about it. The positive side - a couple of times I tried to search for the control panel about three times, and up pops a one line survey about how easy was it to find the control panel. On the negative side, when I do internet banking, they will in theory be able to view this. But then again, any browser could be reporting back what you are doing as it is already on the internet. And my bank has already thought of this and there is another security layer where every transaction change results in an SMS to my phone and a number I have to type back in.
If you want total security (eg designing a circuit which your competitor might steal), perhaps use a machine that is never connected to the internet. No wifi, no ethernet cable, and to install programs, copy them across on a USB disk. To export data, do it as plain text or a pdf or even an old fashioned printout on a piece of paper.
Another idea - having played around with the ESP8266 wifi modules I have a new appreciation for how simple the internet is behind the scenes. It is just text going back and forth - open a connection, send or receive text (the exact number of bytes has to be specified) and close the connection. So it could be possible to design a filter.
Or just give up on the idea of privacy. Many of my friends post their entire lives on facebook. Google takes a picture of my property regularly, both from the outside, and from above with satellites and planes. Maybe personal privacy doesn't matter any more? Corporate privacy, on the other hand, is extremely important. This Microsoft agreement is very useful as it could help focus those responsible for security in an organisation to really ask if their systems are secure.
Is Microsoft trying to commit suicide? I hope so!
EDIT: According to one source, this will only be in place for the Technical Preview, but it still sounds scary.
Win 10 Tech preview can be installed as an automatic update to Win7/8. Don't worry, be happy!
http://www.cnet.com/news/raspberry-pi-2-model-b-is-a-quad-core-upgrade-on-sale-today/
But to be fair, it sounds more like WinCE, which may make you wince:
A note of caution -- the version of Windows 10 that the Pi 2 ends up running could be quite different to the normal, consumer-centric version of Windows 10 that most computers will be running. The Pi-compatible edition will be part of Microsoft's Windows Developer Program for IoT (Internet of Things), which is concerned with bringing Windows development tools to small devices. "This is Windows 10 for IT applications," Upton said.
As such, Windows 10 on Raspberry Pi is unlikely to appeal to ordinary consumers looking for the familiar Windows OS, but could appeal to geeky types who love the thought of delving into Microsoft's developer tools. Microsoft says it will be divulging more information in the next few months, so stay tuned.
Is the WEI (experience index) still available in Win10? It was a handy benchmark in Vista & Win7, but they made it harder to get to in Win 8 and 8.1, as though it was being phased out. Just curious if it still lives, and if so, did your system score change when you went from Win8 to Win10?
http://www.eightforums.com/tutorials/4513-windows-experience-index-update-refresh-wei-score-windows-8-a.html
A good bit of advice on that forum: If your PC (ex: laptop) s running only on battery power, then you will need to connect it's AC adapter first or WEI will not run.
Heater, if the license does not change then I will be unnerved enough to not use Windows 10 and go to Linux.
To my mind the license does not matter. If the code you are running is not open source it's very hard to tell what it may do and when.
That is not to say that you personally should be reading and checking over all the source code in your system, that is clearly impossible. But the world is big enough that somebody somewhere will be looking at it from time to time.
All in all I'd stay away from it in the same way the Trojan's should have rejected that horse thing from the Greeks.
Hope it isn't too stiff. I share most of Heaters concerns, maybe a shade less vocal about them, and more pragmatic regarding OS use.
Similar advocacy impacted me in the 90's which led first to IRIX, which I have no regrets other than I'm not running it today, then Linux on an old Pentium 90.
Best move I ever made.
The subtle bit in play here is it is not so important that everyone do OSS, nor build code, etc...
It is very important that they can.
My current professional role favors win64. I'm good at it, and it pays me, and others buy licenses. No worries.
At home, I run Mac OS and now more Linux because I got a Pi.
The number of times Linux has been there to save my Smile, or help me do something expensive cheap is high. Totally worth it, and I still run a lot of win64.
If anything, give OSS a go no matter what you run. It runs everywhere and the money you save, skills you gain will just keep paying off.
Privacy in an interconnected time is a growing issue. I personally don't care much, so long as I get good value in return. Google generally does this. An open book OS with ADS likely will not.
But I have a good shot at avoiding most of it, should I care more, and I don't think anyone really cares enough about me to be a problem.
The advocacy is good. If it gets people developing those high value skills, bring it on.
But also don't feel bad about what you run either. I sure don't and would expect others to do the same.
If you do somehow get that nagging feeling... jump in. You can be awesome in 6 months or less. And never, ever pay again...
With a closed OS, you are in a forced position of trust. Either you care, or do not.
They will do what they want either way.
No, don't bother, it's the usual response. Seems that pointing out the downsides of proprietary software solutions is annoying to many.
Readers always assume it's a Windows vs Linux "fanboy" thing. Of course it is not. Maybe I'm presenting my argument badly.
I liked Doug's post (#72). RPi is a great way to jump into Linux. It wasn't my first Linux experience, but it was definitely the best. Even without another reason to purchase a RPi, one ought to do it for the free Mathematica.
I have Win7 running on a well endowed laptop and it does what I need it to do hosting a lot of Windows only software (most of the FPGA suites).
I have a Mac Mini running OS X as my main desktop. It also has Parallels with a Win7 VM and a Linux VM. I have an older Mac Mini that is currently looking for a job around the house.
Various Linux flavors running on a laptop, a desktop and several SBC's - they all do what they need to do.
Since I'm using all the popular OS flavors, I'm not sure if that allows me to complain about any/all of them or forces me to support them all.
Use the tools you need and the tools you feel comfortable with. Unless you do something REALLY stupid, the sun will still come up in the morning and nobody should think any less of you! If you get reall upset because someone has an opinion that differs from yours then you really need a new hobby or just shouldn't interact with people!
Very good information. Thanks!
"I want my Windows 7 system back." - Sorry Sir, that's not possible. You need to make your PAYMENT to get your system back under YOUR control so you can use it.....
I'm sorry, folks, that's NOT very inviting to me!
Quite so. Whenever I say such things I get severely reprimanded around here though.
In general I agree with what you post more often than not, and Paul Sr. has a very good point. The last thing I want is another monthly or yearly service fee. As for being "severely reprimanded", I guess you could call it that, but to be fair it only seems to be when you get a little um...over enthusiastic with your post. You're not alone though. When I posted my opinion of having Apple force me to have certain apps on my iPhone it was deleted. Not that I'm complaining about it, Parallax has the right to control what goes on their forum.
If they use it to target ads, then its not just for the technical review version.
MS will save the NSA heaps - they just need to monitor (or infiltrate) MS to get all the info they desire.
They are also monitoring SMS and phone calls, so now the banks and other providers who send SMS passwords are no longer secure from MS at least.
With all that info held by MS, they will become the hackers target of choice - hackers include corrupt goverments and we have heard what some of them have been accused of lately.
And now we will be asked to pay yearly to keep that data about us - oh sorry, use our software.
Next Intel will be charging us annually for using the '86 processor chip
If I recall, they eventually changed the release number, and no longer honored the "free upgrades" thing, even thought the original functionality sold was never delievered. The original design would not allow the proper implementeation, (which gave rise to PC software "hacking") and required a redesign, which was sold as a new product. Do I remember this correctly?
I don't trust "free" when it costs money, and I don't trust "upgrades" that don't actually fix a problem, particularly ones that cause more issues.
I'm sure a futher employer will have windws 10 infrastructure, and I will hapily use it. But I would be very cautious about using it with anything of value of mine.
The downside of being honest and straightforward - something us "old" people were taught and now get ripped for being "confrontational".
So true. We have to learn the art of diplomacy, which is defined as "being able to say the nastiest things in the nicest way".
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/18/us-microsoft-china-idUSKBN0ME06A20150318
Microsoft is
No details about exactly what this means outside of China, but still interesting none-the-less.
In other news, Chinese phone maker Xiaomi and Microsoft are working to release Windows 10 as an alternative to Android on phones already in production.
Most likely outcome is free to upgrade, because they really need to shake off the WIn 7 and XP users. Personally, it will take a lot to get me off 7. 8 didn't cut it.
Over time, they will charge for it maybe, but just to get users on, or with computer purchases, etc...
If anything, they won't move to a subscription, until they've got a very serious majority on Win10, which I'll bet has the foundations for subscription done, and tested.
No worries yet. And none at all, if you are fluent in other OSes.
http://www.winbeta.org/news/microsoft-outlines-minimum-system-requirements-windows-10-desktops-and-phones
"As for Windows 10 for PCs, the OS requires a lowly 800x600 resolution 7 display. The same UEFI and Secure Boot requirements as its mobile version, 1GB of RAM and 16GB of storage for 32-bit installs, 2GB of RAM and 20GB of storage for 64-bit, DirectX 9 graphics, and a minimum of a power and volume control for buttons, with Start and rotation lock buttons being optional."
https://www.yahoo.com/tech/s/pirates-beware-free-windows-10-upgrade-105058412.html
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2015/03/windows-10-to-make-the-secure-boot-alt-os-lock-out-a-reality/
I, among many, told "those other people, because I don't know who said what" so!
First, they will do this. Then there will be "incentives" for locked down, exclusive hardware, and a spiff for some extra feature, or bit of tech included. Then we will see, essentially disposable machines.
People like us will still be running what we want, but for those, "hey, I want to try it!" people, life will get a lot harder not being able to boot into an OS, or a live distribution. Not to mention utilities I use all the time. I'm sure you do too.
From there, the OS can leverage the locked down machine to enforce drivers, then applications, and finally, it's the store or nothing.
Sometime in the 00's, I wrote a few essays about this, and how a very likely and plausible end game is cell phone like computing.
This is step one.
And since companies expect growth... you can bet something like this roadmap is on the board in quite a few places. Nice way to build an enduring business, from their perspective.