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BeMicro CV A9 - 301.000K LE — Parallax Forums

BeMicro CV A9 - 301.000K LE

65816581 Posts: 132
edited 2015-06-26 17:15 in Propeller 1
I see a lot of people (including me) are using the BeMicro CV (A2) for evaluating
of different FPGA projects including the P1V. Now it seems that there will be the
BeMicroCV A9 coming up very soon:

http://parts.arrow.com/item/detail/arrow-development-tools/bemicrocva9

It has 301.000 LE (instead of the 25.000 LE the A2 has) and a lot more multiplier
units etc.

Now, the only issue I see: It seems to be completely unsupported by the Web Edition
of Altera Quartus II. There is a subscription edition, which is around 2000$ a year and
comes with an evaluation time of 30 days.

Then I don't understand what the target market of Arrow is with the A9.. I don't think
somebody would save money on an FPGA board if the software to use it costs so much.

Am I seeing it wrong? Looks like I will be cancelling my 4 x A9 preorders.
«13

Comments

  • AleAle Posts: 2,363
    edited 2014-10-13 07:45
    I'd also gladly have a bigger FPGA than the A2... but I cannot justify € 2k for hobby uses :/
  • pik33pik33 Posts: 2,366
    edited 2014-10-13 08:55
    Maybe they will add a Quartus with the support for this board. There is still DE2-115 or even DE2i-150 supported by the free Quartus edition.
  • 65816581 Posts: 132
    edited 2014-10-13 09:00
    pik33 wrote: »
    Maybe they will add a Quartus with the support for this board. There is still DE2-115 or even DE2i-150 supported by the free Quartus edition.
    I hope so! Would be reasonable. If not, I would expect them to produce a A7 variant.
  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,702
    edited 2014-10-13 12:59
    Is it possible to pre-order them? Any idea of price?
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2014-10-13 13:08
    Ale wrote: »
    I'd also gladly have a bigger FPGA than the A2... but I cannot justify € 2k for hobby uses :/

    $3000 for A9 US$!

    Ouch.
  • 65816581 Posts: 132
    edited 2014-10-13 13:44
    Publison wrote: »
    $3000 for A9 US$!

    Ouch.

    The BEMICRO CV A9 is around $50 as well!
  • jac_goudsmitjac_goudsmit Posts: 418
    edited 2014-10-13 13:52
    Also, keep in mind that the free version of Quartus doesn't support the A9, you have to get the paid version.

    I think for most of us the A9 is out of our league...

    ===Jac
  • 65816581 Posts: 132
    edited 2014-10-13 14:12
    Also, keep in mind that the free version of Quartus doesn't support the A9, you have to get the paid version.

    I think for most of us the A9 is out of our league...

    ===Jac
    Yes, this is what i was trying to explain in the first post. Maybe altera will come with some board-license, which has no limits?
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2014-10-13 14:52
    6581 wrote: »
    Yes, this is what i was trying to explain in the first post. Maybe altera will come with some board-license, which has no limits?

    It does seem a strange idea, to NOT have a Board that has the largest-Web-Edition device.
    After all, they do crow about footprint compatible FPGAs so the effort needed here is quite small.
  • jac_goudsmitjac_goudsmit Posts: 418
    edited 2014-10-13 15:28
    6581 wrote: »
    Yes, this is what i was trying to explain in the first post. Maybe altera will come with some board-license, which has no limits?

    I agree, but I think that's unlikely to happen: The A9 FPGA contains an ARM core, and Altera probably has to pay license fees to ARM to integrate the compiler in their Quartus tool so they can't afford to give that away.

    The DE2-115 has the biggest available Cyclone IV FPGA on it (115K LE's) and it's supported by the free version of Quartus. I think we should be pretty grateful for that :-)

    Also, Cyclone V compilations are so slow (at least for the BeMicro CV), that I'm not so sure if I'd be interested in having a version that has 301K LE's. It'll probably take the better part of a day to fill that thing up :-)

    ===Jac
  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,702
    edited 2014-10-13 16:56
    I agree, but I think that's unlikely to happen: The A9 FPGA contains an ARM core, and Altera probably has to pay license fees to ARM to integrate the compiler in their Quartus tool so they can't afford to give that away.

    The DE2-115 has the biggest available Cyclone IV FPGA on it (115K LE's) and it's supported by the free version of Quartus. I think we should be pretty grateful for that :-)

    Also, Cyclone V compilations are so slow (at least for the BeMicro CV), that I'm not so sure if I'd be interested in having a version that has 301K LE's. It'll probably take the better part of a day to fill that thing up :-)

    ===Jac

    There is also the De2i-150, which has 150K LE's, I assume it works with the free quartus web edition but don't know for sure.
    http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=139&No=529&PartNo=2

    50 for the BeMicro A9 version, wow. We should all get ultra proficient on BeMicro CV's first, so that we can get the maximum from our 30 days of serious experimenting
  • AribaAriba Posts: 2,690
    edited 2014-10-13 17:57
    6581 wrote: »
    The BEMICRO CV A9 is around $50 as well!

    Are you sure? The cheapest A9 chip costs around 300$. How can they make a whole board for 1/6 the price?

    Andy
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2014-10-13 18:31
    The normal retail price of the FPGAs is obviously unrealistic. Many boards from various vendors are way cheaper than this. And the EPSC flash chips are quoted around ~$15 each too whereas a similar flash chip is ~$1.
  • 65816581 Posts: 132
    edited 2014-10-14 11:50
    I agree, but I think that's unlikely to happen: The A9 FPGA contains an ARM core, and Altera probably has to pay license fees to ARM to integrate the compiler in their Quartus tool so they can't afford to give that away.
    ===Jac

    It's actually the SE variant having the ARM-Core. The A9 which is on the BeMicro CV A9 is the E variant which has no ARM-core.
    I got the price confirmation and the board will cost around 50$ (list price). I am currently in contact with the vendor, because they apparently
    didn't think about the license issue. I guess there will be some custom licensing available.

    By the way: I'd personally like to go with the DE2, but $555 is a bit much compared to the BeMicroCV for 38$ and CVA9 for 50$.
    Then it probably would make more sense to go with multiple BeMicro CV boards.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2015-02-03 16:32
    Any updates on the 5CEA9 License issue ?

    I see the price is now
    BEMICROCVA9 Arrow Development Tools $149.0000
    but shows Zero Stock, so maybe they still talk with Altera ?
    If the License issue persists, then a BEMICROCVA7 would be an obvious product. ?
  • pik33pik33 Posts: 2,366
    edited 2015-02-04 13:45
    DE1-Soc has ARM and is compatible with free Quartus
  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,702
    edited 2015-06-23 07:39
    Arrow seems to have stock now of the BeMicro CV A9. And it looks like quartus web edition 15 supports at least that 300k LE Cyclone V A9 variant too.

    What to do with 300k LE's and 12 MBits of RAM?
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2015-06-23 14:39
    Tubular wrote: »
    Arrow seems to have stock now of the BeMicro CV A9. And it looks like quartus web edition 15 supports at least that 300k LE Cyclone V A9 variant too.

    What to do with 300k LE's and 12 MBits of RAM?

    Interesting, I wonder where that places the Parallax FPGA board ?
  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,702
    edited 2015-06-23 15:53
    After overcoming the initial annoyance of the goalposts shifting, it's actually probably a good thing, particularly heading towards P3. It opens up options for using the same 1-2-3 board design but significantly more SRAM that the P3 will surely need.

    If you think of the 1-2-3 board not as a 'hard specced board that needs to compete with the spectrum of other fpga dev boards out there', but more as a Parallax supported way to early-adopt Chip's current and future visions (while Parallax simultaneously reduce risk and flush out bugs), then its all good.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2015-06-23 16:46
    Tubular wrote: »
    If you think of the 1-2-3 board not as a 'hard specced board that needs to compete with the spectrum of other fpga dev boards out there', but more as a Parallax supported way to early-adopt Chip's current and future visions (while Parallax simultaneously reduce risk and flush out bugs), then its all good.

    I think Chip will release builds for a small set of FPGA boards, so this would be a clear candidate.

    I guess the 1-2-3 Board and BeMicro CV A9 can co-exit depending on where Parallax plan to go with HW IO Support, and when that can no long fit on an industry board like BeMicro CV A9

    eg If they want to add P2 support for SDRAM of some type, then a board with that specific chip becomes an important test vehicle,
    Likewise for Hyperbus, or TIs uPP connections.

    The connectors on this looked interesting
    http://www.ti.com/tool/LAUNCHXL-F28377S
    TI seem to have used a thru hole reflow header that has a removable cap ? - gives a nice compact PCB footprint.
  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,702
    edited 2015-06-23 19:16
    Yeah interesting. I was looking at that board yesterday when you (or whoever) linked to it, but I didn't spot that. I think I'm more comfortable with black plastic there keeping everything straight, but perhaps there are some other benefits in manufacture. Mill-max has some interesting products on tapes
  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,702
    edited 2015-06-23 19:34
    Just on the Parallax 1-2-3, there's a separate 48 pin edge connector for plugging in various memory options. Should make it easy to try out as the memory options evolve over the coming years
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2015-06-23 20:05
    Interesting, the BeMicroCVA9 is $149 whereas just the FPGA 5CEFA9F23C8N chip is $228, both from Arrow!!!

    I have to admit, the board is an excellent price, even with $35 shipping to Oz. I am tempted ;)
  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,702
    edited 2015-06-23 23:44
    I'll chase a local price, should save you at least shipping and perhaps a bit more
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2015-06-24 06:35
    jmg wrote: »
    I think Chip will release builds for a small set of FPGA boards, so this would be a clear candidate./QUOTE]
    I wonder what will be in that list? DE0-Nano? DE2-115? The older BeMicro board?
  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,702
    edited 2015-06-24 21:15
    I think for P1V, we can build for any target, easy to do with OzPropDev's generation tool.

    However there's a kind of fragmentation of attention if everyone's using a different target, as well as prioritizing different P1V extensions

    For the new P2, I think it'd be good if we're all (or as many as possible) using the Parallax 1-2-3 board and its unique features.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2015-06-25 03:06
    Tubular wrote: »
    I think for P1V, we can build for any target, easy to do with OzPropDev's generation tool.

    However there's a kind of fragmentation of attention if everyone's using a different target, as well as prioritizing different P1V extensions

    For the new P2, I think it'd be good if we're all (or as many as possible) using the Parallax 1-2-3 board and its unique features.
    The 1-2-3 board is an expensive option. It seems to me that some people who wanted to work with the older P2 images found it difficult to justify buying even a DE0-Nano. Requiring the 1-2-3 board will probably limit the number of testers.
  • SeairthSeairth Posts: 2,474
    edited 2015-06-25 11:57
    David Betz wrote: »
    The 1-2-3 board is an expensive option. It seems to me that some people who wanted to work with the older P2 images found it difficult to justify buying even a DE0-Nano. Requiring the 1-2-3 board will probably limit the number of testers.

    Agreed. As much as I'd like to help test the upcoming P2 image with the 1-2-3 board, it is just too cost prohibitive (as a casual hobbyist). And, of course, I already have the DE0-Nano and the original BEMicro CV, so would prefer to leverage that investment. The CV A9 is very enticing, but I'm afraid it would end up like the other two: mostly collecting dust. And that is the same issue with the 1-2-3 board, only more so. Beyond the immediate use case of beta testing the P2, I just don't have another use case that makes it worth buying.
  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,702
    edited 2015-06-25 16:04
    I guess if the hub based math block (20k LE's?) was cut perhaps a few cogs might fit in the DE0-Nano or BeMicro CV. There doesn't seem to be much to compare with the value of the BeMicro CV

    Better start working out a good use case Seairth, that'd solve it
  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,702
    edited 2015-06-25 16:04
    I guess if the hub based math block (20k LE's?) was cut perhaps a few cogs might fit in the DE0-Nano or BeMicro CV. There doesn't seem to be much to compare with the value of the BeMicro CV

    Better start working out a good use case Seairth, that'd solve it
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