I think a lot of the decline -- if it truly is as real as perceived -- is due to the low-hanging P1 fruit having already been picked and made into jam (i.e. objects). Now people are using those objects in projects that may not merit as much foment as the original, more basic work did. If so, it's just a sign of product maturity
-Phil
I agree with Phil. My latest projects (WS2811 LED control for a Christmas project and servo/stepper motor control for my robot-in-progress) have been able to take advantage of existing objects.
That said, I'm also working (almost 5 years now) on my IBM 1130 emulation project. Although I've had to write some of my own objects (for example, disk and display management), I'm not sure if they'd be of any interest to anyone else.
So that's 3 P1 projects that are on my plate. Plenty to keep me busy and out of trouble, but not really newsworthy.
I'm one of those who aren't nearly as active as I used to be on the Propeller forums... So I can only speak for myself...
I've been impatiently waiting for the P2 for the last couple years.
I was really expecting to use the chip in a revision of the Mini Computer Project, but had to make a hard decision to start looking at alternative chips (which I found) to keep things running. While the PMC/MMC is a very minor product in the grand scheme of things, it is part of my livelyhood, and I can't sell products from an empty wagon.
For several years, many of us have contributed projects and objects to the benefit of the Propeller 1, making the product more valuble and exciting. When Parallax released the source code, I think it has distracted many who have been working on the actual product to working on the FPGA version. In the end, I'm sure this will benefit Parallax and all of those involved, but as a small business person, I can't afford to spend time working on simulations, I've got to have actual chips I can place into actual products and sell them to put food on the table.
I'm sad to say that the distraction of the FPGA code release has actually done harm to the Propeller 1 forums and the forward movement of the Propeller 1. It's still got a lot to offer the hobbiest and educator alike.
Again, this is my opinion only, and you all know what they say about opinions.. Add .79 and you'll have enough for a cup of coffee.
People are getting their last of the good weather stuff done outside, soon they will be inside doing project and the post count should go up.
I run a few forums and you can see this in all of them (i.e. my 4wd forum gets slow in the winter because there isn't much activity to post about)
I like this explanation. I'm going to assume this is correct for the moment!
I decided about 4 years ago that the way this forum is used is a mistake. Not a popular opinion I'm sure, but the reason I say it is because Parallax is letting all the customers pro, amature, young, old, good intentioned, or even devious define Parallax. I suppose one can judge Parallax on how it rises to meet the challenges, but in my opinion there has been little rising through the years. The problems with rising to the challenge are that doing so takes an inordinate amount of time, and it's very easy to goof. Parallax has a culture of friendship, which is great, but they get abused often one way or another by accident or by agenda even by close friends.
What's right about the forum?
It is a presence and a news outlet.
It is a place for discussing and resolving issues encountered with their products.
What's wrong with it?
It is a monster that doesn't present Parallax in a manageable light.
Too many forum sections. I've never seen another site with so many. Where do you start?
Parallax points people to the forum for support from their web page, but it is not really a support forum; it is a free-for-all.
The forum editor is horrible LOL.
What to do??? Well, the Parallax forum could become a support only forum, and Parallax can encourage others to create forums that are more loosely associated and focused on other things like that shiny new device @xyzzy is making and all the joy of working with xyzzy-propellers.
The current set of forum discussions could be split by Parallax into various URL's. So that way, all the niches can have a place for only their pet discussions (where I never have to see them). The servers can still be maintained by parallax on one machine, but the addresses can be different. The cost of URL's is tiny compared to the benefits.
If I had a final thought .... it would be: I'd like to thank Chip for encouraging me to exercise. There have been many benefits from following through with that such as not caring as much about little things that used to irritate me horribly. Let it go; life goes on.
It seems to me that user forums are what users make of it. It's why they're called user forums.
The way I understand it, the forum is intended as user-to-user support. Parallax is one of the few companies with active non-forum support channels, including phone. They don't rely on the forums as their only means to provide customer assistance. I'd encourage them to keep it as is.
When things get slow, Parallax can always run another contest. Not just in the forum, but from their main page, too. I don't know if microMedic made them any money, but it generated a goodly amount of interest and threads. The robotics community is full of various "challenges." Maybe Parallax could create some challenges, based on suggested individual product (see where I'm going here?), and invite open participation. Winners get gift certificates for more Parallax goodies. It doesn't have to be just robotics topics.
I liked Ken's post about the new addressable RGB breakout boards. That product would be perfect for a challenge. So as soon as that product is out, create a contest awarding (for example) $50 gift certificates to the top three winners -- a YouTube demonstration video is required.
This is just one thing Parallax can do to keep the forums lively, but really, the bulk of it is up to us.
I think the P2 and the P1V have caused much of it, but discontinuing the Propeller Demo Board and the Propeller Manual book doesn't help in my opinion.
I think the P2 and the P1V have caused much of it, but discontinuing the Propeller Demo Board and the Propeller Manual book doesn't help in my opinion.
Bean
Did the Demo Board have anything that the PropBOE doesn't? I miss the book too.
The original Propeller Manual had a very good introduction to Spin which was based on using the Demo Board. You could always wire things up yourself, but it was easier if you had the board. I did it the hard way.
Parallax points people to the forum for support from their web page, but it is not really a support forum; it is a free-for-all.
Certainly a bit of a free for all. On the other hand, time and time again we have seen newcomers turn up, ask a question and then be amazed at how quickly they got a useful response. A lot of praise has been heaped on the contributors here as a result. The "support system" seems to be working.
The forum editor is horrible LOL.
Yeah. Same like all the others. That's why I compose my replies in Sublime Text and then cut and paste them here.
What to do???
Please don't do anything. Everything is working just fine.
Kicking out the general chit chat will destroy what we have here.
I'd like to thank Chip for encouraging me to exercise.
The original Propeller Manual had a very good introduction to Spin which was based on using the Demo Board. You could always wire things up yourself, but it was easier if you had the board. I did it the hard way.
I see. It isn't so much that you miss the Demo Board itself. It's that the old Propeller Manual + the Demo Board made a good combination for learning Spin/PASM using the tutorial in the manual. Yes, it is too bad that is no longer available. I think Parallax open sourced the Propeller Manual. Maybe someone could update the tutorial to make use of the PropBOE instead of the Demo Board?
I see. It isn't so much that you miss the Demo Board itself. It's that the old Propeller Manual + the Demo Board made a good combination for learning Spin/PASM using the tutorial in the manual. Yes, it is too bad that is no longer available. I think Parallax open sourced the Propeller Manual. Maybe someone could update the tutorial to make use of the PropBOE instead of the Demo Board?
I miss the idea of the demo board but it appears to have been superseded by the Activity board at the low end and the prop-boe at the higher end.
I do miss the idea of the printed and bound prop manual and am glad I bought one while I still could. It's sad that it seems very unlikely that there will ever be another printed and bound book like it for the prop-2.
Well, actually that was just an observation, I've never owned a Demo Board. I did go through most of the tutorial section in the manual though. I liked the instructional parts of the PE Kit also. It had lots of clear and easy to follow examples.
It isn't so much that you miss the Demo Board itself. It's that the old Propeller Manual + the Demo Board made a good combination for learning Spin/PASM using the tutorial in the manual.
Definitely the Activity Board has superseded the Demo Board, with improvements. It also costs $30 less. That said, if they had a small breakout for the PAB with the video connector that would be great.
My go-to boards are the Activity Board and the new Propeller Project Board (the old Proto Board, but with the Prop chip sensibly moved out of the center of the breadboard area).
The Propeller manual is still available for download, isn't it? It's just not in printed form. Perhaps Parallax would be interested in submitting the book to Amazon for print-on-demand. It wouldn't be any less expensive than it was (maybe a few dollars more, depending on the binding), but at least people could get it in print form if they wanted. The quality of POD is excellent these days, even for half-toned black and white pictures. It costs (virtually) nothing to get the book out in POD form, except the time for an editor to prepare the PDF print files.
Definitely the Activity Board has superseded the Demo Board, with improvements. It also costs $30 less. That said, if they had a small breakout for the PAB with the video connector that would be great.
My go-to boards are the Activity Board and the new Propeller Project Board (the old Proto Board, but with the Prop chip sensibly moved out of the center of the breadboard area).
The Propeller manual is still available for download, isn't it? It's just not in printed form. Perhaps Parallax would be interested in submitting the book to Amazon for print-on-demand. It wouldn't be any less expensive than it was (maybe a few dollars more, depending on the binding), but at least people could get it in print form if they wanted. The quality of POD is excellent these days, even for half-toned black and white pictures. It costs (virtually) nothing to get the book out in POD form, except the time for an editor to prepare the PDF print files.
That's sort of what I was thinking about. If someone would rewrite the Spin/PASM tutorial to match the ActivityBoard and then submit the whole book for POD, that would be great! Assuming of course that Parallax is okay with that idea.
They'd probably be okay with it (I forget the copyright terms of these older books), but I think this sort of thing should be "Parallax Official." Otherwise, the availability of the book might fall through the cracks, and it will just be a wasted effort for a third-party.
The same text could be republished on the Learn site, so the additional effort of revising the book, including the illustrations, gets plenty of hits. There are obviously a lot of people still very keen on this thing called Spin.
The funny thing is..... This thread has proved me wrong. It has received a lot of views and posts..... Amazing.
Thanks for providing this great "call to action" post, idbruce. Speaking of which, please get back to your el cheapo 3d printer. I've been waiting patiently. I just know you're gonna crack the code the day AFTER I spring for a commercial unit.
The Propeller manual is still available for download, isn't it? It's just not in printed form.
I would love to have the printed version to pass out to my students as a reference, since I'm teaching Spin. Granted, there were some errors in the first (printed) edition, but it's still nice to have something other than a computer screen to refer to, especially when you have to switch back and forth between a PDF and the Propeller Tool. But technology is dynamic; books, static. So I'm not sure how much sense it would make for Parallax to do an edited, hard-copy reprint. Still, though, my dead-tree copy is my go-to reference instead of the PDF version. (Does that date me? )
I have only skimmed thru this thread. And frankly it p......ed me off to see the title.
A little decorum wouldn't hurt anyone would it?
Scout's honor, on my mother's grave, I think Parallax's forum is the best thing since sliced bread.
It was only after finding the forum that I bought my first Propeller. Andd I probably wouldn't have started with Propeller's except that
I was confident that however stupid my question might sound, there would be a very nice person around here to help me.
I am currently all hung up on the FPGA forum and only come out when I have nothing else to think about over there.
I have wanted to get into FPGA's since around the time I got my first Propeller. If there was an FPGA forum that was as bright, vibrant, and responsive as Parallax's forums are, I would have done it a long time ago. All it takes is one issue in a project that can't be resolved and that project is dead. Our FPGA forum has a couple of really talented people... but no real guru's with time to deal with every little issue... yet, but it is a new forum.
Look at the FPGA forums elsewhere... look at all of the simple questions that simply get ignored. Taking the first step is often the most difficult. If you can't take that step... there is no journey. That doesn't happen here.
Talk about "exciting new releases"... what exactly does it take to get you excited?
(... leaves the room to get an adult beverage .)
What evidence is there... really ... that the forum has slowed down? I wouldn't care about new posts or total number of responses,
I would be more interested in number of views... and particularly the number of new viewers... are these dropping?
Does Parallax have any way to track these kinds of statistics?
I don't know.
I don't care about seeing new posts... if there is nothing on the current page of a particular forum... I can always drift backwards to see what I missed. There are very few days that I have enough time to look for everything that I would like.
For example... there is a new board under development by a 3rd part...to put images on an LCD. I've been following the thread... and have been so busy with the FPGA stuff I lost it. rather than looking for that, I'm here exorcising my grief at seeing the title of this thread.
I am getting old... if you guy's would ask yourself one question before starting these kinds of discussion, I would dearly appreciate
it.... and that is ... ask yourself "will this upset Rich?" and if it will ... do it some other way!
Luv you all. You are absolutely the best... but darned it... you can be a little ... irritating.
As others have said, the book would need a revision to make it relevant. Whether or not the book is open source (it doesn't have to be unless a third party updates it), it should be revised to reflect current product. Otherwise what's the point? The idea would be to provide something that sells some more Parallax product. If someone wants it for older -- especially discontinued -- product they might as well just download the current version.
Phil, technically a POD version would come *from* a revised online version, but technically it works either way. If done properly, the time it takes to format the files for PDF to send to Amazon or other publishing platform is fairly trivial, particularly if using something like Adobe Framemaker. By the nature of the POD process, the book is only printed if and when someone buys it. They must have a reason to buy it, and they would obviously be aware of the static nature of a printed book over downloadable online materials. Only a sufficient number of trees is required for that one book, so it's green-friendly. There is never any unsold merchandise.
I've self-published POD books for over 25 years, and in 1999 was a managing editor of one of the nation's first print-on-demand servicers. It was kind of crude in the beginning, with really awful results for half-toned images, but the output now looks much enhanced compared to traditional offset printing.
I have only skimmed thru this thread. And frankly it p......ed me off to see the title.
Many of us have been here a very long time, some longer than others. Certainly, there are others that have been here longer than me. However, I have been here long enough to see various major changes in the traffic patterns of the forum and I have seen quite a few members come and go.
If the title upset you, then you have not been here long enough
I have been here long enough. (Many people would say I have been here too long:))
As such I did not really buy the premise of this threads title. It's suggesting this place had died. I just don't see that.
Of course if anyone feels that way and if it bothers them for some reason then they have a clear course of action. Do something! Post a project write up. Write some code. Make a schematic. Share it. See what happens. See who wants to discuss it, use it, tweak it.
I am overjoyed if I find that even just one person has made use of some little thing I have managed to put together. Even more overjoyed when they can suggest how to make it work properly: )
I haven't been posting much for a while because I have been extremely busy with side project stuff along with my day job work. I've been checking in regularly to keep up on certain threads here and there.
Anyway, I've been around long enough to know that the forum activity goes up and down in cycles, and one of those cycles is the winter/summer one. It lulls a bit in the summer and bounces back in the fall/winter. Probably because of people taking vacations, and also kids being out of school.
I think another thing that might be contributing to the current lull is that we didn't have an expo in Rocklin this year. Those seem to rally people to do projects and get on the forums talking about them.
Comments
I agree with Phil. My latest projects (WS2811 LED control for a Christmas project and servo/stepper motor control for my robot-in-progress) have been able to take advantage of existing objects.
That said, I'm also working (almost 5 years now) on my IBM 1130 emulation project. Although I've had to write some of my own objects (for example, disk and display management), I'm not sure if they'd be of any interest to anyone else.
So that's 3 P1 projects that are on my plate. Plenty to keep me busy and out of trouble, but not really newsworthy.
Walter
Content removed due to immature subject audience
I've been impatiently waiting for the P2 for the last couple years.
I was really expecting to use the chip in a revision of the Mini Computer Project, but had to make a hard decision to start looking at alternative chips (which I found) to keep things running. While the PMC/MMC is a very minor product in the grand scheme of things, it is part of my livelyhood, and I can't sell products from an empty wagon.
For several years, many of us have contributed projects and objects to the benefit of the Propeller 1, making the product more valuble and exciting. When Parallax released the source code, I think it has distracted many who have been working on the actual product to working on the FPGA version. In the end, I'm sure this will benefit Parallax and all of those involved, but as a small business person, I can't afford to spend time working on simulations, I've got to have actual chips I can place into actual products and sell them to put food on the table.
I'm sad to say that the distraction of the FPGA code release has actually done harm to the Propeller 1 forums and the forward movement of the Propeller 1. It's still got a lot to offer the hobbiest and educator alike.
Again, this is my opinion only, and you all know what they say about opinions.. Add .79 and you'll have enough for a cup of coffee.
Jeff
I decided about 4 years ago that the way this forum is used is a mistake. Not a popular opinion I'm sure, but the reason I say it is because Parallax is letting all the customers pro, amature, young, old, good intentioned, or even devious define Parallax. I suppose one can judge Parallax on how it rises to meet the challenges, but in my opinion there has been little rising through the years. The problems with rising to the challenge are that doing so takes an inordinate amount of time, and it's very easy to goof. Parallax has a culture of friendship, which is great, but they get abused often one way or another by accident or by agenda even by close friends.
What's right about the forum?
The current set of forum discussions could be split by Parallax into various URL's. So that way, all the niches can have a place for only their pet discussions (where I never have to see them). The servers can still be maintained by parallax on one machine, but the addresses can be different. The cost of URL's is tiny compared to the benefits.
If I had a final thought .... it would be: I'd like to thank Chip for encouraging me to exercise. There have been many benefits from following through with that such as not caring as much about little things that used to irritate me horribly. Let it go; life goes on.
The way I understand it, the forum is intended as user-to-user support. Parallax is one of the few companies with active non-forum support channels, including phone. They don't rely on the forums as their only means to provide customer assistance. I'd encourage them to keep it as is.
When things get slow, Parallax can always run another contest. Not just in the forum, but from their main page, too. I don't know if microMedic made them any money, but it generated a goodly amount of interest and threads. The robotics community is full of various "challenges." Maybe Parallax could create some challenges, based on suggested individual product (see where I'm going here?), and invite open participation. Winners get gift certificates for more Parallax goodies. It doesn't have to be just robotics topics.
I liked Ken's post about the new addressable RGB breakout boards. That product would be perfect for a challenge. So as soon as that product is out, create a contest awarding (for example) $50 gift certificates to the top three winners -- a YouTube demonstration video is required.
This is just one thing Parallax can do to keep the forums lively, but really, the bulk of it is up to us.
I think the P2 and the P1V have caused much of it, but discontinuing the Propeller Demo Board and the Propeller Manual book doesn't help in my opinion.
Bean
Kicking out the general chit chat will destroy what we have here. Perhaps I should try that as well:)
I miss the idea of the demo board but it appears to have been superseded by the Activity board at the low end and the prop-boe at the higher end.
I do miss the idea of the printed and bound prop manual and am glad I bought one while I still could. It's sad that it seems very unlikely that there will ever be another printed and bound book like it for the prop-2.
It has received a lot of views and posts..... Amazing.
My go-to boards are the Activity Board and the new Propeller Project Board (the old Proto Board, but with the Prop chip sensibly moved out of the center of the breadboard area).
The Propeller manual is still available for download, isn't it? It's just not in printed form. Perhaps Parallax would be interested in submitting the book to Amazon for print-on-demand. It wouldn't be any less expensive than it was (maybe a few dollars more, depending on the binding), but at least people could get it in print form if they wanted. The quality of POD is excellent these days, even for half-toned black and white pictures. It costs (virtually) nothing to get the book out in POD form, except the time for an editor to prepare the PDF print files.
The same text could be republished on the Learn site, so the additional effort of revising the book, including the illustrations, gets plenty of hits. There are obviously a lot of people still very keen on this thing called Spin.
Thanks for providing this great "call to action" post, idbruce. Speaking of which, please get back to your el cheapo 3d printer. I've been waiting patiently. I just know you're gonna crack the code the day AFTER I spring for a commercial unit.
-Phil
A little decorum wouldn't hurt anyone would it?
Scout's honor, on my mother's grave, I think Parallax's forum is the best thing since sliced bread.
It was only after finding the forum that I bought my first Propeller. Andd I probably wouldn't have started with Propeller's except that
I was confident that however stupid my question might sound, there would be a very nice person around here to help me.
I am currently all hung up on the FPGA forum and only come out when I have nothing else to think about over there.
I have wanted to get into FPGA's since around the time I got my first Propeller. If there was an FPGA forum that was as bright, vibrant, and responsive as Parallax's forums are, I would have done it a long time ago. All it takes is one issue in a project that can't be resolved and that project is dead. Our FPGA forum has a couple of really talented people... but no real guru's with time to deal with every little issue... yet, but it is a new forum.
Look at the FPGA forums elsewhere... look at all of the simple questions that simply get ignored. Taking the first step is often the most difficult. If you can't take that step... there is no journey. That doesn't happen here.
Talk about "exciting new releases"... what exactly does it take to get you excited?
(... leaves the room to get an adult beverage .)
What evidence is there... really ... that the forum has slowed down? I wouldn't care about new posts or total number of responses,
I would be more interested in number of views... and particularly the number of new viewers... are these dropping?
Does Parallax have any way to track these kinds of statistics?
I don't know.
I don't care about seeing new posts... if there is nothing on the current page of a particular forum... I can always drift backwards to see what I missed. There are very few days that I have enough time to look for everything that I would like.
For example... there is a new board under development by a 3rd part...to put images on an LCD. I've been following the thread... and have been so busy with the FPGA stuff I lost it. rather than looking for that, I'm here exorcising my grief at seeing the title of this thread.
I am getting old... if you guy's would ask yourself one question before starting these kinds of discussion, I would dearly appreciate
it.... and that is ... ask yourself "will this upset Rich?" and if it will ... do it some other way!
Luv you all. You are absolutely the best... but darned it... you can be a little ... irritating.
Thanks,
Rich
Phil, technically a POD version would come *from* a revised online version, but technically it works either way. If done properly, the time it takes to format the files for PDF to send to Amazon or other publishing platform is fairly trivial, particularly if using something like Adobe Framemaker. By the nature of the POD process, the book is only printed if and when someone buys it. They must have a reason to buy it, and they would obviously be aware of the static nature of a printed book over downloadable online materials. Only a sufficient number of trees is required for that one book, so it's green-friendly. There is never any unsold merchandise.
I've self-published POD books for over 25 years, and in 1999 was a managing editor of one of the nation's first print-on-demand servicers. It was kind of crude in the beginning, with really awful results for half-toned images, but the output now looks much enhanced compared to traditional offset printing.
Many of us have been here a very long time, some longer than others. Certainly, there are others that have been here longer than me. However, I have been here long enough to see various major changes in the traffic patterns of the forum and I have seen quite a few members come and go.
If the title upset you, then you have not been here long enough
As such I did not really buy the premise of this threads title. It's suggesting this place had died. I just don't see that.
Of course if anyone feels that way and if it bothers them for some reason then they have a clear course of action. Do something! Post a project write up. Write some code. Make a schematic. Share it. See what happens. See who wants to discuss it, use it, tweak it.
I am overjoyed if I find that even just one person has made use of some little thing I have managed to put together. Even more overjoyed when they can suggest how to make it work properly: )
Those numbers sound terrible.
I don't think we should worry about it. All this gloom and doom talk is not going to help the problem. If indeed there is a problem.
No, we should let Ken worry about it. And get on with whatever it is we want to do.
There, I feel better already.
Anyway, I've been around long enough to know that the forum activity goes up and down in cycles, and one of those cycles is the winter/summer one. It lulls a bit in the summer and bounces back in the fall/winter. Probably because of people taking vacations, and also kids being out of school.
I think another thing that might be contributing to the current lull is that we didn't have an expo in Rocklin this year. Those seem to rally people to do projects and get on the forums talking about them.
Roy
That would be this thing:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1070983896/the-stupendous-splendiferous-butterup
But this forum is the next best thing... ;-)