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What Happened To The Forum? — Parallax Forums

What Happened To The Forum?

idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
edited 2014-10-16 06:43 in General Discussion
This place was once alive and happening, with regular post and projects, but lately, this place seems more like a funeral parlor. From my perspective, I would have to say that the spotlight was taken away from the BASIC Stamp and the Propeller much too quickly. I believe all the P2 hype, FPGAs, and verilog have stolen the life blood :)

Prop me up beside the jukebox
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Comments

  • Dave HeinDave Hein Posts: 6,347
    edited 2014-10-06 12:33
    Bruce, for once we are in violent agreement. I've noticed that there seem to be fewer posts about new and exciting projects using the Prop. However, I don't think P1V and P2 have stolen the life blood, but rather other solutions such as the Raspberry Pi and the Arduino have had an impact. I noticed that we no longer see posts from some individuals that used to be very active on the forum. I wonder if they have moved on to something else.

    If it wasn't for the post about P1V there would be little activity on the forums. Unfortunately, I don't find the P1V that interesting unless it would lead to a chip. If we see progress on the P2 by Christmas then things might perk up again on the forum. If not, then maybe there should be some serious discussion about turning P1V into a chip. Parallax needs something new to keep people from jumping ship and using other solutions.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-10-06 12:44
    I've been wondering the same thing but why do you say making P1V into a chip will help? I guess that depends on which of the features people have been experimenting with make it into the silicon. In any case, it would help if we could determine why key contributors have been silent. Maybe they haven't left. Maybe they're just busy with other things and will eventually return. I suppose forum activity is cyclical to some extent. On the other hand, if they've left for good it would be helpful to know why. Did they outgrow P1 and go looking for something faster, with more memory, etc? That might factor into what would be added to a P1V chip to attempt to bring some of these people back and attract new ones.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2014-10-06 13:26
    We're having fun and keeping busy over in the Robotics forum. If you guys are bored, bounce over there and start building. Plenty of servos to go around!
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-10-06 13:41
    erco wrote: »
    We're having fun and keeping busy over in the Robotics forum. If you guys are bored, bounce over there and start building. Plenty of servos to go around!
    I tend to hit the "New Posts" link when I enter the forums so I see messages no matter which forum they are posted in and I don't even see that many posts in the robotics forum.
  • Matt GillilandMatt Gilliland Posts: 1,406
    edited 2014-10-06 13:41
    Dang it erco!
    There goes the neighborhood! - inviting the likes of these guys to where the real fun is? :tongue:
    -MattG
  • Dave HeinDave Hein Posts: 6,347
    edited 2014-10-06 14:02
    I always use the "What's New?" button also. So I do see the cool stuff happening in the robotics forum. The hex crawlers fascinate me with their multitude of servos and moving parts.

    As far as making a chip from P1V -- I'd love to see a P1+ that ran at 200 MHz with 512K of hub RAM, Port B, 4K of cog RAM, and hardware multipliers. Hopefully, we'll see a P2 FPGA image by Christmas and we can start playing around with that with the hopes that a P2 chip will be coming out before the end of 2015. If not, then maybe a P1+ would help to satisfy us.
  • User NameUser Name Posts: 1,451
    edited 2014-10-06 15:01
    Forum activity may be slow, but that doesn't necessarily signal lack of activity with the P1. I'd venture to say that some of us are as busy as ever. Some projects don't translate well to a public forum and may not be of general interest, anyway. But I for one remain very enthusiastic about the Prop.
  • ColeyColey Posts: 1,110
    edited 2014-10-06 15:21
    User Name wrote: »
    Forum activity may be slow, but that doesn't necessarily signal lack of activity with the P1. I'd venture that some of us are as busy as ever. Some projects don't translate well to a public forum and perhaps are not of general interest. But I for one remain very enthusiastic about the Prop.

    I'm the same, a lot of my business driven Propeller projects are not suitable for a public forum but I'm just as active.
    Sadly I just don't get the time for fun projects much these days.

    I don't think the public P2 discussion has been at all healthy for P1, perhaps it would have been if it had been realised a few years ago.....
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
    edited 2014-10-06 15:53
    Forum activity may be slow

    That is an understatement.... A snails pace would be more like it. :)
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2014-10-06 16:00
    This forum is hyperactive compared to some other technical forums I use. So it still seems healthy to me.

    I suspect the what might be happening is that people have more technology options than previously which dilutes the users among different platforms and their respect forums.

    My own output has been reduced due to work pressure, otherwise I have plenty of BS2 and Propeller project ideas in the pipeline.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-10-06 16:13
    Well...we can discuss the lack of activity on the forum.

    I mean, why aren't those people out there doing anything?

    Or...we can get on with stuff and come back and report on it.

    I don't feel as if I got much mind share with my efforts to "program a Propeller from your Raspberry Pi" or "program a Propeller from you browser" or even weirder "program a Propeller from your WIFI router".

    But I will continue tinkering with Props in my own way.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2014-10-06 17:41
    I think a lot of the decline -- if it truly is as real as perceived -- is due to the low-hanging P1 fruit having already been picked and made into jam (i.e. objects). Now people are using those objects in projects that may not merit as much foment as the original, more basic work did. If so, it's just a sign of product maturity.

    But, yes, I do think the P2 and P1V stuff has drawn the interest of our more talented developers away from the P1. I also believe that the ascendency of GCC has caused the Prop community to splinter, siphoning off some of the Spin/PASM talent to areas that don't interest the rest of us. In both cases, less community cohesion entails less critical mass in any one area to sustain lively group activity.

    -Phil
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2014-10-06 17:44
    I would like to see a P1V chip done quickly. It would serve to prove the new process and contractors, and at the same time giving the P2 some breathing space.
    Features that would be nice...
    512KB hub if possible
    12-16 Cogs P1 based
    A few new instructions such as MUL, AUGxx etc
    Two cogs with 8KB and VGA, rest with normal 2KB and no VGA (saves die space)
    160-200MHz
    64 I/O
    Simple Analog if possible
    Small 4-8KB flash on board if process can support this (with simple monitor and security). This would permit booting from whatever SPI/I2C/SD.

    This would solve the current P2 (minimum) user requirements (speed, hub ram, security, etc) AND it could be done quickly with little chance of failure. Call it the P2.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2014-10-06 18:17
    Forum activity on the main P1 forum has declined significantly. Even the P1V forum is only seeing a small number of active persons.

    Some reasons could be that a lot of the early development has been done. However, I fear a lot of activity has gone to other micros, most likely the Arduino and the Raspberry-Pi.

    I have a number of new board designs but I just don't see enough activity to warrant getting them done.
  • msrobotsmsrobots Posts: 3,709
    edited 2014-10-06 18:47
    I am somehow with @Cluso99 here.

    Building and shipping a P1+ could help existing P1 user to keep their existing product line running with Propeller Chips instead of going to another controller.

    Feature creep does not just did exist in the P2 forum. It also applies to the 'normal' product cycle of almost all products out there.

    Every year more bling needs to be added and the constrains of the P1 will hit more and more projects.

    I do not do Verilog but I still follow them threads with excitement. There are a lot of different ideas pondered - as in those P2 threads - but its IMPLEMENTED not just talked about.

    The most positive thing about that is that @Chip does not get distracted and is able to do his wonders. But I am pretty sure he reads the Verilog threads and follows them, once in a while.

    A slightly modified P1 may be a good step between now and when the P2 will be finalized. Keep it simple. Just ROM as preloaded RAM so existing tools can use it and existing software will run without modification. Port B. Maybe more cogs? Keep the existing Instruction set and encoding so SW/OBEX can just be used without concern.

    Add the security part of the P2 and things are golden.

    Adding as less as possible of the new features is the goal here to make sure the first shuffle is a success and customers can use it without new tools or reprogramming the applications to fit 2 different chips.

    So basically the P8X32B as announced some decade ago...

    To go back to the topic, I think that all the excitement over the P2 FPGA has stopped a lot of people - believing there is a P2 soon - to just use the P1. Then the P2 was too power hungry and now everybody is either waiting for news or just proceeding with the P1 as before.

    Another point is that thanks to the tanking economy's of US and EU all people I know have to work harder, faster and longer hours without getting paid more in fear of loosing their income if they do not.

    So less Play Time and less Money to play with basically results in less forum activity.

    Which hurts me bad as I am addicted to the Parallax Forums since some years. I somehow need to read threads about stuff I do not own or use but MAY use in the future with another project or so.

    And while working those 10-16 hour days I peek into the forums once in a while to get myself distracted from the current problem, relax a moment and attack the problem again.

    my 2 cents

    Enjoy!

    Mike
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2014-10-06 19:19
    msrobots wrote: »
    Building and shipping a P1+ could help existing P1 user to keep their existing product line running with Propeller Chips instead of going to another controller.
    ?? Any P1+ is not going to allow "existing P1 user to keep their existing product line running", as it is not pin / supply compatible.

    Any P1+ would significantly delay a P2 release, as it will suck testing and verify time, right when P2 needs them.
    The MASK and NRE costs in this are very large, it is not like running up a PCB.

    Using P1V to verify branch ideas for P2 makes more sense, and it also gets more seats "P2 ready" with FPGA systems.
  • MrBi11MrBi11 Posts: 117
    edited 2014-10-06 20:35
    People are getting their last of the good weather stuff done outside, soon they will be inside doing project and the post count should go up.
    I run a few forums and you can see this in all of them (i.e. my 4wd forum gets slow in the winter because there isn't much activity to post about)
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2014-10-06 20:50
    MrBi11 wrote:
    People are getting their last of the good weather stuff done outside, soon they will be inside doing project and the post count should go up.
    You know, that could well be the main cause. Who wants to be inside doing Prop stuff when you could be out enjoying the Fall sunshine?

    -Phil
  • Martin HodgeMartin Hodge Posts: 1,246
    edited 2014-10-06 22:04
    What is this sunshine thing you speak of? Is it modern?
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2014-10-06 22:23
    Parallax needs to release some new cool items to make things interesting!!!!
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2014-10-06 23:35
    NWCCTV wrote:
    Parallax needs to release some new cool items to make things interesting!!!!
    I really don't believe that things Parallax are any less interesting than they've ever been. The P1 still has plenty of juice to fuel the realization of the most jaded hobbyist's electronic fantasies. OTOH, it will never compete with kayaking on Port Townsend Bay at sundown after a warm October day, with a fog bank in the distance highlighted by a nearly full moon, as the local ferry glides by on its way to Whidbey Island.

    This is why I think MrBi11 is on to something. Once the cellar door of winter clangs shut, and darkness emvelopes us at 4:30 p.m., things will be different: the forum will, once again, buzz with the creative ferment that our more indoor forumistas are jonesing for.

    -Phil
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
    edited 2014-10-06 23:52
    Okay... I want to change my opinion, based upon something Phil said, because I believe he is correct. I think forum participation started to decline with the creation of GCC, and then declined even further with the creation of the other forums. Before GCC, the forum was alive and kicking.
  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,716
    edited 2014-10-07 00:46
    idbruce wrote: »
    Okay... I want to change my opinion, based upon something Phil said, because I believe he is correct. I think forum participation started to decline with the creation of GCC, and then declined even further with the creation of the other forums. Before GCC, the forum was alive and kicking.

    Philosophy might be the talk on a cereal box, or it might what is killing the forum, maybe both.

    It seems that GCC is a heretical tongue not to be spoken in the presence of the priests of PASM and Spin.

    From my point of view if the existence of GCC is seen as a problem then the forum has much larger issues than GCC.

    C.W.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2014-10-07 01:12
    Just to be clear, I did NOT say or imply that GCC was some kind of poison responsible for any perceived decline in the forum. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I have posited only that GCC has created a schism that's divided the Propeller community, possibly to the point that any one faction lacks the critical mass that the whole once enjoyed to engender and sustain forum-worthy projects and discussions. Had GCC come along first, with an ascendant Spin/PASM community drawing away its talent and user base, i would have said the same thing about Spin//PASM.

    -Phil
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
    edited 2014-10-07 01:31
    Phil
    Just to be clear, I did NOT say or imply that GCC was some kind of poison responsible for any perceived decline in the forum. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I have posited only that GCC has created a schism that's divided the Propeller community, possibly to the point that any one faction lacks the critical mass that the whole once enjoyed to engender and sustain forum-worthy projects and discussions. Had GCC come along first, with an ascendant Spin/PASM community drawing away its talent and user base, i would have said the same thing about Spin//PASM.

    You were crystal clear, only my statement was misleading. My apologies for the misleading statement. I believe everything you said, as you stated it, but it is "my" belief that participation has declined since the creation of GCC. However please do not misunderstand me, because I believe GCC is a good course of action, although not my cup of tea. And even though I agree with GCC, I miss the old forum.
  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,716
    edited 2014-10-07 01:38
    The question is why did GCC create a schism? It should have been welcomed with open arms as another tool in the toolbox. Yes it's another split in the pie, but the pie should have become larger with new users that had previously dismissed the propeller due to the lack of an open source C/C++ compiler. I think the petty language wars prevent a lot of people from taking a serious look at the prop. I do think that Parallax holds some responsibility for this with embracing GCC for education and suggesting that non-educational users stick with Spin/PASM. There should be a clearly suggested learning path if you are new to the propeller and don't already have a strong language preference based on other experience. There are multiple threads where a new user shows up only to be thrown into a language war of 'helpful' suggestions that if they chose the 'perfect' language they will have arrived a microcontroller nirvana. It is natural for a person to throw their support behind their preferred language, but I think it would be better if Parallax would suggest a clear path for 'getting your feet wet' instead of having people bombarded with suggestions pulling them in different directions.

    C.W.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
    edited 2014-10-07 01:44
    That is a very good point C.W.

    Too many options with too many opinions.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-10-07 06:39
    I can't exactly say why other's might be posting less, but in my own case I am just trying to provide better quality content rather than a high volume.

    At some point, we do learn enough to not have to seek on-line mentoring for every detail. There are a lot of support materials and there are a lot of other web sites that focus on paticular interests.

    I still do quite a bit of reading and it helps to read replies to new users -- they often revisit topics that I haven't completely mastered.

    I do suspect that the world of on-line positngs has matured and many have just grown weary of spending long hours at a keyboard when there are other modes of study that are equally or more productive.

    I suspect that when Parallax finally releases the Propeller Two, there will be a surge of activity as the new interest will bring the informationally greedy begging for someone to explain all and everything to them.

    I'll just re-emphasize --- Quality seems to be important to everyone. So try to contribute accordingly. Users are more sophisticated than ten years ago. They don't care to repeat challenges that are easy. They want new interesting ones. That's why I am interested in Inertial Management Units now. For me, it is new and fun.

    I still like Forth, waffle between Catalina C and GCC, and want to learn more of PASM. I am just very finished with the blinky LED and "Hello World". There are tons of stuff here that is well-documented. Not so much reason to chat or debate.
  • Dave HeinDave Hein Posts: 6,347
    edited 2014-10-07 06:53
    I don't believe that anything that Parallax has done has caused a lack of interest on the forum. Every new offering from Parallax has tended to increase interest and activity on the forum, including PropGCC and the educational programs. It's what Parallax hasn't done that's causing the interest and activity on the forum to wane. Primarily, they haven't introduced the P2 in a timely manner. If the P2 were introduced 3 years ago we would be talking about sooo many new and exciting things that could be done with it. Without P2 we have all been looking at alternative solutions.

    Once we see the P2 FPGA image there will be a resurgence of activity on the forum. I'm looking forward to some exciting times when that happens.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
    edited 2014-10-07 07:16
    Once we see the P2 FPGA image there will be a resurgence of activity on the forum. I'm looking forward to some exciting times when that happens.

    Dave... Please wake me up when it gets here :)
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