I have now been in business and an employer since 1971, some 43 years. We never had thoughts or issues with this whole drug testing thing. But as of the last 10 or 15 years, our large corporate clients are requiring it of our staff. I think it is driven by their insurance suppliers, as there might be need for our staff to be on the clients' premises.
So, now as part of our hiring process we require consent to drug tests. And to round things out, we also contract out background checks on all new staff, again because they need to be able to go to our customers' sites.
I don't like it, but business is changing, and that's just how it is.
I can fix a 'stoned' carpenter, for a few days I just "grind him into the slab and send him home mad". they learn fast enough,
it's the "damned powder freaks" as i call them, You can't train them, they have a one track mind, and they are spastic, unreliable, and just about any other bad thing you can say about an employee.
The costs of employing anyone to do anything are astronomical now a days. So many things to consider. Taxes, health care, rent, insurance, safety regulations. God knows what. That's before you think about what few cents are left to put in the workers pocket.
This is not always the case. I know of a company that was making tons of money yet they still outsourced to China. The justification for dumping their US supplier in favor of the China one was that the company only exists to make the owners as much money as possible. The dollars they save means that the owners get a few dollars more. Raises for employees? No. Pass the savings to the customer? No. Gripe about the government making it hard for them to get richer? You bet.
>Lots of college kids come to the job site at 7:00am and are pretty much done by 9:00am,
Are they done from sore muscles?, if so you're giving up to soon.
Start out giving them Gatorade/chocolate-milk at 8am to combat fatigue.
Unless you tell them a week before work starts how to work-out, they would have to build strength at jobsite for those repetitive work motions.
I never saw a manufacturing job that required 12th grade math - I assume pre-calc.
Most manufacturing work is so simplified that a HS drop out can do the work with a minimum of training. I've seen it done with the most high tech military aircraft production lines. GM in it's factories in Mexico have found out that Mexican drop outs work just as well as HS grads in their factories. or the fact that a lot of factories prefer to train the workers in their methods.
In short the story is bull. It doesn't account for older workers who can do the work but aren't hired because of their age or the fact that a lot manufacturers prefer illegals for a lot of work. It doesn't account for off-shoring of manufacturing jobs in order to save on wages. BTW the savings ARE NEVER passed on to the consumer. Sneakers, Apple products, name brand blue jeans still cost as much as if they were done with union labor, even though they were made in a sweat shop with people making $2 hour.
Sure some groups are whining they can't find any workers. But I bet there are reasons why. Wages and expectations seem to be really out of whack; lack of honesty by the employer about what the job entails; or the companies has some nightmarish management/workplace issues that drive people out. Some bosses are real sadists and deliberately set up the new hire to fail. They know there are a dozen others waiting to take his place. So why not have some fun. I've seen all of that and experienced it in a few cases.
>Lots of college kids come to the job site at 7:00am and are pretty much done by 9:00am,
Are they done from sore muscles?, if so you're giving up to soon.
Start out giving them Gatorade/chocolate-milk at 8am to combat fatigue. Unless you tell them a week before work starts how to work-out, they would have to build strength at jobsite for those repetitive work motions.
Don't forget Bananas, and Raisins (natures candy!), just about any fruit will help physically, it is the mental attitude that needs adjustment.
I will make sure you don't get in over your head physically, it is in my best interest that you are not physically injured, in any way.
I supply everything you will need to stay safe from harm. including any safety gear, water, gatorade, juice, and very often a healthy breakfast and lunch.
Trust me, it is important to me that you don't get hurt.
It is the work ethic that I can't supply, I can be an example, but if it's not your bag,(you don't want to be here) then there is not much I can do for them..
Carpentry is not for everyone, it can be tough work, but after 40 years of it, most days are easy to me,
One needs to think more about "Cool!, I'm building something" and not "We have to carry boards tomorrow too?"
It's not me giving up, it's the kid who was not taught the self discipline to learn a new task, and won't, because it looks harder then baseball practice.
The justification for dumping their US supplier in favor of the China one was that the company only exists to make the owners as much money as possible.
And the problem with that is what exactly?
I thought the USA was the prime model of capitalism, the free market economy and enterprise.
Are you now suggesting that is not such a clever idea?
.... 50% of potential candidates for "good manufacturing jobs" can't qualify for two reasons:
1) Can't pass a drug test
2) Can't do 12th grade math & English
The other 50% can't qualify for good manufacturing jobs because of either:
Been there done that. It's mind numbing and soul destroying. Like all those hapless Chinese guys working in the Foxcon factories churning out iPhones for us. Who are now famous for committing suicide.
Do we really aspire to occupying everybody with "busy work" that way?
In this case, the problem is that local jobs are lost, overseas jobs are gained. The quality plummeted, customers complained and in the end, not so much savings. Two Americans benefited and a bunch of people in China did too. The customers get an inferior product. Other Americans have less work to do, I have no idea how many.
The U.S. workforce has never been older. The share of workers ages 55 and over hit 22.2 percent in July, according to data released last week by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Thats the highest since record-keeping began in 1948.
Most of these older employed are putting in long days, too. Only 21 percent of older workers are in part-time jobs, vs. 27 percent two decades ago.
As my old friend said many times "You get what you ordered"
Right, the "you" in this case is the voters. Most of whom are not free thinking logical individuals - the kindest way I can think of at the moment to describe the mean intelligence of this country. Give us another 100 years, we'll get it.
Never mind America, same is true in Europe and Japan and other "first world" countries.
Well, you don't say. Somewhere in the 1960's or there abouts came the idea that we should stop breeding like rabbits. To ease the obviously insane exponential growth of the population. With the help of contraceptives and the desire for women's independence it came to be so.
So here we are. A generation of old folks, outnumbering the young, that nobody wants to take care of.
At least in Japan they are busy working on robots to take care of the old folks.
On the other hand, it seems the young are totally incompetent so the old guys just have to keep on working.
Yes indeed "you" is the voters. That is what democracy is supposed to be about.
I dispute the idea that any of us are "free thinking logical individuals".
We are all the creation of the society, the environment we were born into. Everything we think, say or do is conditioned by that. The mere fact that we speak English and not Hindi is evidence of that. Did we choose that? No, I don't think so.
As for "logical", yeah right. Granted, if you have an aim in mind logic may help you get there. But what is it that put that aim in your mind? Logic in itself has no motivation to do anything. A purely logical being would never move. There has to be some emotive driving force, a desire, which itself is not logical.
All in all you have a very dim view of your fellow country men. Perhaps they have been deceived, misled and confused by recent history. But is it really so they have no intelligence?
As for the other 100 years to get used to democracy. I don't think so. Times up.
All in all you have a very dim view of your fellow country men.
I don't think so. I have a dim view of their ideas, the ones that have been accepted without question. I have found that when questioning someone about specific ideas, they often cannot explain/don't know why they believe them, yet they make up their "core" beliefs. Those beliefs then influence how they vote. I think that is a big problem.
That's all for me, I don't want to be responsible for getting the thread locked.
Yes, sorry, I forgot about you. But I suspect it was there before you were. So what actually is that freaky all seeing eye over a pyramid on the one dollar bill all about?
It probably has something to do with the Founding Fathers and their connections to Freemasonry. (I have no idea, really. That's just a guess.) Anyway, it predates the NSA.
Yes, sorry, I forgot about you. But I suspect it was there before you were. So what actually is that freaky all seeing eye over a pyramid on the one dollar bill all about?
In 1782, the Eye of Providence was adopted as part of the symbolism on the reverse side of the Great Seal of the United States. It was first suggested as an element of the Great Seal by the first of three design committees in 1776 and is thought to be the suggestion of the artistic consultant, Pierre Eugene du Simitiere.[5]
Original design for the Great Seal of the United States by Simitiere.
In his original proposal to the committee, Du Similtere placed the Eye over shields symbolizing each of the original thirteen states of the Union. On the version of the seal that was eventually approved, the Eye is positioned above an unfinished pyramid of thirteen steps (again symbolizing the original States, but incorporating the nation's potential for future growth). The symbolism is explained by the motto that appears above the Eye: Annuit Coeptis, meaning "He approves (or has approved) [our] undertakings". This reflects the founding fathers belief that God favors the creation the United States and will bless its future prosperity.[citation needed]
Perhaps due to its use in the design of the Great Seal, the Eye has made its way into other American seals and logos, notably the Seal of Colorado and DARPA's Information Awareness Office. It is also part of the City Seal of Kenosha, Wisconsin.
And then there are the 'conspiracy' websites who have their own spin on it ...
It's not me giving up, it's the kid who was not taught the self discipline to learn a new task, and won't, because it looks harder then baseball practice.
Yes, to actually do work is something one has to be taught. I remember when I started my first summer holiday job at the age of 13 (the youngest age I could start there back then - in agriculture). At 7:30 in the morning we all showed up and were told what to do that day. Everything from mowing lawns to weed removal or removing rocks from a field. Anything that a young person could safely do in a farm environment. I remember how difficult it was in the beginning to actually work a full 8-hour day, without wanting a break every 15 minutes. We could have 5 minutes pause every hour and I really looked forward to that. It was still difficult. Got used to it though, and continued having summer jobs there every year until I passed 20. By that time working hard for 8 hours straight was not a problem. But it's something that you need to learn, and it's more difficult now - in Norway you're basically not allowed to have that kind of work until you're 16 at least, or even 18. Not good at all in my opinion. In Japan they have the opposite problem - there doesn't seem to be any regulations at all, and students are pushed very hard indeed in their part time jobs. Not good either. In any case, those summer jobs I had from I was 13 were extremely important because I learned to _work_.
On the one hand we have "In God we trust", on the dollar bills, and I'm led to believe the USA is a Christian country.
I don't get it. We have several religions that believe in one God, and at least one that pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years.
The world would be better of if everyone just agreed that one God is implicit that humanity should pull together rather than sub-groups claiming a superior relationship to that 'one God'.
America does not have an official religion. And it doesn't have an official language either. I am more worried about capitalists than pagans.
++++++++++++++++++
How does a parent teach a kid self-discipline.
1. Make the kid work for their allowance with clearly defined duties and tasks.
2. Pay them only once a month and refuse to advance or lend them money when they fail to budget.
3. Encourage them to seek a better source of income outside the home and family.
Nothing new about that at all, Professor..
We had an excuse for drug abuse in the 70's and 80's, We didn't know it was bad for us. How could big pharmaceutical companies tell us it's ok if it wasn't?.
They made the Smile...Trust us, We want to cure you, of everything...
edit: (to early in the morning, sorry about that)
Of course, I mean to say this in the nicest way possible..
I don't get it. We have several religions that believe in one God, and at least one that pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years.
The world would be better of if everyone just agreed that one God is implicit that humanity should pull together rather than sub-groups claiming a superior relationship to that 'one God'.
America does not have an official religion. And it doesn't have an official language either. I am more worried about capitalists than pagans.
++++++++++++++++++
How does a parent teach a kid self-discipline.
1. Make the kid work for their allowance with clearly defined duties and tasks.
2. Pay them only once a month and refuse to advance or lend them money when they fail to budget.
3. Encourage them to seek a better source of income outside the home and family.
LOL..I caught that too...someone might want to check out that freedom of religion thing they brag about in the United States.
Never mind America, same is true in Europe and Japan and other "first world" countries.
Well, you don't say. Somewhere in the 1960's or there abouts came the idea that we should stop breeding like rabbits. To ease the obviously insane exponential growth of the population. With the help of contraceptives and the desire for women's independence it came to be so.
So here we are. A generation of old folks, outnumbering the young, that nobody wants to take care of.
At least in Japan they are busy working on robots to take care of the old folks.
On the other hand, it seems the young are totally incompetent so the old guys just have to keep on working.
Age discrimination is rampant in the United States...when I started in engineering I soon noticed that there were very few older engineers...then I was introduced to the ""lay them off when they make too much money" concept as I watched companiesrepeatedily layoff qualified workers because of their race to the bottom for profit over quality.
Another interesting trait was when a massive layoff happened, the CEO got a major pay raise.
Comments
I have now been in business and an employer since 1971, some 43 years. We never had thoughts or issues with this whole drug testing thing. But as of the last 10 or 15 years, our large corporate clients are requiring it of our staff. I think it is driven by their insurance suppliers, as there might be need for our staff to be on the clients' premises.
So, now as part of our hiring process we require consent to drug tests. And to round things out, we also contract out background checks on all new staff, again because they need to be able to go to our customers' sites.
I don't like it, but business is changing, and that's just how it is.
Cheers,
Peter (pjv)
it's the "damned powder freaks" as i call them, You can't train them, they have a one track mind, and they are spastic, unreliable, and just about any other bad thing you can say about an employee.
This is not always the case. I know of a company that was making tons of money yet they still outsourced to China. The justification for dumping their US supplier in favor of the China one was that the company only exists to make the owners as much money as possible. The dollars they save means that the owners get a few dollars more. Raises for employees? No. Pass the savings to the customer? No. Gripe about the government making it hard for them to get richer? You bet.
Are they done from sore muscles?, if so you're giving up to soon.
Start out giving them Gatorade/chocolate-milk at 8am to combat fatigue.
Unless you tell them a week before work starts how to work-out, they would have to build strength at jobsite for those repetitive work motions.
Most manufacturing work is so simplified that a HS drop out can do the work with a minimum of training. I've seen it done with the most high tech military aircraft production lines. GM in it's factories in Mexico have found out that Mexican drop outs work just as well as HS grads in their factories. or the fact that a lot of factories prefer to train the workers in their methods.
In short the story is bull. It doesn't account for older workers who can do the work but aren't hired because of their age or the fact that a lot manufacturers prefer illegals for a lot of work. It doesn't account for off-shoring of manufacturing jobs in order to save on wages. BTW the savings ARE NEVER passed on to the consumer. Sneakers, Apple products, name brand blue jeans still cost as much as if they were done with union labor, even though they were made in a sweat shop with people making $2 hour.
Sure some groups are whining they can't find any workers. But I bet there are reasons why. Wages and expectations seem to be really out of whack; lack of honesty by the employer about what the job entails; or the companies has some nightmarish management/workplace issues that drive people out. Some bosses are real sadists and deliberately set up the new hire to fail. They know there are a dozen others waiting to take his place. So why not have some fun. I've seen all of that and experienced it in a few cases.
I will make sure you don't get in over your head physically, it is in my best interest that you are not physically injured, in any way.
I supply everything you will need to stay safe from harm. including any safety gear, water, gatorade, juice, and very often a healthy breakfast and lunch.
Trust me, it is important to me that you don't get hurt.
It is the work ethic that I can't supply, I can be an example, but if it's not your bag,(you don't want to be here) then there is not much I can do for them..
Carpentry is not for everyone, it can be tough work, but after 40 years of it, most days are easy to me,
One needs to think more about "Cool!, I'm building something" and not "We have to carry boards tomorrow too?"
It's not me giving up, it's the kid who was not taught the self discipline to learn a new task, and won't, because it looks harder then baseball practice.
-Tommy
I thought the USA was the prime model of capitalism, the free market economy and enterprise.
Are you now suggesting that is not such a clever idea?
The other 50% can't qualify for good manufacturing jobs because of either:
1) too old
2) don't currently have a job
Been there done that. It's mind numbing and soul destroying. Like all those hapless Chinese guys working in the Foxcon factories churning out iPhones for us. Who are now famous for committing suicide.
Do we really aspire to occupying everybody with "busy work" that way?
In this case, the problem is that local jobs are lost, overseas jobs are gained. The quality plummeted, customers complained and in the end, not so much savings. Two Americans benefited and a bunch of people in China did too. The customers get an inferior product. Other Americans have less work to do, I have no idea how many.
American workers are older than ever
Yes, yes, I know how it goes.
But in the land of the free, with an emphasis on the free market economy, I don't see how anybody can complain.
As my old friend said many times "You get what you ordered" also "In God we Trust. One Dollar"
By the way, whilst we are talking about money, what is that freaky "all seeing eye" thing on the top of a pyramid on one dollar bills?
I'm older than every and am truly grateful for that fact every day!!
Right, the "you" in this case is the voters. Most of whom are not free thinking logical individuals - the kindest way I can think of at the moment to describe the mean intelligence of this country. Give us another 100 years, we'll get it.
Never mind America, same is true in Europe and Japan and other "first world" countries.
Well, you don't say. Somewhere in the 1960's or there abouts came the idea that we should stop breeding like rabbits. To ease the obviously insane exponential growth of the population. With the help of contraceptives and the desire for women's independence it came to be so.
So here we are. A generation of old folks, outnumbering the young, that nobody wants to take care of.
At least in Japan they are busy working on robots to take care of the old folks.
On the other hand, it seems the young are totally incompetent so the old guys just have to keep on working.
Yes indeed "you" is the voters. That is what democracy is supposed to be about.
I dispute the idea that any of us are "free thinking logical individuals".
We are all the creation of the society, the environment we were born into. Everything we think, say or do is conditioned by that. The mere fact that we speak English and not Hindi is evidence of that. Did we choose that? No, I don't think so.
As for "logical", yeah right. Granted, if you have an aim in mind logic may help you get there. But what is it that put that aim in your mind? Logic in itself has no motivation to do anything. A purely logical being would never move. There has to be some emotive driving force, a desire, which itself is not logical.
All in all you have a very dim view of your fellow country men. Perhaps they have been deceived, misled and confused by recent history. But is it really so they have no intelligence?
As for the other 100 years to get used to democracy. I don't think so. Times up.
That's me!
I don't think so. I have a dim view of their ideas, the ones that have been accepted without question. I have found that when questioning someone about specific ideas, they often cannot explain/don't know why they believe them, yet they make up their "core" beliefs. Those beliefs then influence how they vote. I think that is a big problem.
That's all for me, I don't want to be responsible for getting the thread locked.
Yes, sorry, I forgot about you. But I suspect it was there before you were. So what actually is that freaky all seeing eye over a pyramid on the one dollar bill all about?
-Phil
Addendum: Here is more authoratative info.
According to Wikipedia:
And then there are the 'conspiracy' websites who have their own spin on it ...
It is really freaky.
On the one hand we have "In God we trust", on the dollar bills, and I'm led to believe the USA is a Christian country.
But then there is that pyramid, a powerful symbol from a non-christian civilization eons ago.
And then there is the freaky eye thing. It all starts to look really pagan.
"It doesn't matter who you vote for, it only matters who counts the votes."
-Tommy
I don't get it. We have several religions that believe in one God, and at least one that pre-dates Christianity by thousands of years.
The world would be better of if everyone just agreed that one God is implicit that humanity should pull together rather than sub-groups claiming a superior relationship to that 'one God'.
America does not have an official religion. And it doesn't have an official language either. I am more worried about capitalists than pagans.
++++++++++++++++++
How does a parent teach a kid self-discipline.
1. Make the kid work for their allowance with clearly defined duties and tasks.
2. Pay them only once a month and refuse to advance or lend them money when they fail to budget.
3. Encourage them to seek a better source of income outside the home and family.
http://developers.slashdot.org/story/14/07/28/0441210/suddenly-visible-illicit-drugs-as-part-of-silicon-valley-culture
We had an excuse for drug abuse in the 70's and 80's, We didn't know it was bad for us. How could big pharmaceutical companies tell us it's ok if it wasn't?.
They made the Smile...Trust us, We want to cure you, of everything...
edit: (to early in the morning, sorry about that)
Of course, I mean to say this in the nicest way possible..
You should be far more worried about politicians than capitalists and/or pagans.
Capitalism is not the problem, crony capitalism on the other hand is, and you can only get that by mixing a capitalist with a politician.
Religion is not the problem, political religion is, again only achieved by combining religion with politics.
Fear the politician.
C.W.
LOL..I caught that too...someone might want to check out that freedom of religion thing they brag about in the United States.
Age discrimination is rampant in the United States...when I started in engineering I soon noticed that there were very few older engineers...then I was introduced to the ""lay them off when they make too much money" concept as I watched companiesrepeatedily layoff qualified workers because of their race to the bottom for profit over quality.
Another interesting trait was when a massive layoff happened, the CEO got a major pay raise.