re:here are advantages to being on the chip design team"
He didn't say that in the video either (unless I missed it) . However, it's good to know and explains a few things. At least now we know the whole story
Heater - I've heard Eben say that as well. It's an interesting thing to publicly admit because making such a choice adds to the cost and risk of the chip. Which is why it really caught my ear when he said it. You have the ARM royalties (per chip), the die area (per chip), the increased test time (per chip), the potential impact to yield (per chip), and the increase in developer/verification hours (one time.) So I'm guessing that there must have been some sort of buy-in from management. Regardless it all paid off. Broadcom loves the Raspberry Pi. Otherwise they wouldn't have done the quad core spin. And Eben likely would have been laid-off when they finally dumped most of the cellular baseband group.
I'm always wondering how much those ARM royalties are. I imagine there are kind of complicated deals negotiated depending on which core and how many units and so. So much so that it is pushing these guys to support the RISC V concept.
So I'm guessing that there must have been some sort of buy-in from management.
Of course, regardless of the nice folk-lore yarn, there must have been other business cases for the ARM.
Clearly, ir was not placed in there on a RaspPi whim.
It's a pretty logical addition, if the die really is skewed so much to the GPU, as to make any GPU sing, you need a tightly couple processor - external bus lines are not really modern design practice.
So it would be an easy 'sell' in any company.
I'm always wondering how much those ARM royalties are. I imagine there are kind of complicated deals negotiated depending on which core and how many units and so. So much so that it is pushing these guys to support the RISC V concept.
You can get a hint from looking at the ARM revenues. They make no silicon, so income is royalties/licenses.
Some companies negotiate broader license terms, so their royalties are less.
I used to work at BRCM, but am probably covered by an NDA ;-)
My group liked non-ARM processors which were flat fee for our smallest chips - either unlimited reuse or per design licenses. Using something non-ARM also keeps people from trying to share your processor for other tasks when they integrate your design as IP ;-)
You can get a hint from looking at the ARM revenues. They make no silicon, so income is royalties/licenses.
Some companies negotiate broader license terms, so their royalties are less.
Any idea about how large their revenues are? Because when I looked at the production numbers some years ago there were 3 billion ARM chips sold that year (vs. around 1 billion Intel chips). So if we knew the revenue maybe we would have a rough idea of the licensing royalties per chip.
I would not call this story a "folk-lore yarn", it is told to us by one of the significant participants.
I concur with what you say about tight coupling and external bus lines.
There is a little more to the story though. Eben - "In about 2008 we had in our hands, based on a mobile phone graphics processor that we'd developed in Cambridge, we had a device which we thought was almost good enough. This was a device which didn't have an open processor - it had a closed, proprietary RISC core in it. And we ported C Python to it."
So there we have it. The chip was a self-contained SoC already but it was proprietary. It may well have remained so if Eben had not suggested the ARM. Which was itself an idea prompted by Eben's long running Pi project.
1) The "big company" in the Arduino scene is ATMEL. I doubt that sales of their chips in Arduinos is anymore than a fraction of a percent of their production.
2) Similarly the "big company" in the Raspberry Pi scene is Broadcom. Again, I don't think the Pi is more than a blip on their radar. Plus, it turns out that the device we see in the Raspberry Pi is not any kind of "backlog" in their inventory. It did not exist before Eben Upton twisted it around to his desires.
I suppose that ATMEL and Broadcom consider the Arduino and Raspberry Pi as 'charity work' or a chance to promote their productly earlier in the careers of budding engineers and to grab some attention for brand identity from the naive and curious in the consumer market. I've yet to see how either is teaching as much as it claims. Recently, Lego laid claim to being the most recognized brand in the world and mentioned its educational advantage in the same article. To me, it is just yet another abuse of the term 'educational'.
I feel that Lego, Arduino, and Raspbery Pi are image driven entities and people involved tend to reject that other options are valid.. just because it is the image that drives the popularity and growth, not so much educational substance. It seems more promotional, than educational.
The idea that Parallax should just pack up and go away because it isn't a big company offends me. So does the idea that some sort of media blitz and over night creation of a brand identity is sound education. And so does the idea that Arduino or the Raspberry Pi Foundation can do microcontroller education any better than a small concern with a different product.
The unique architecture of the Propeller has provided diverse opportunities to educate on how much can be done differently in microcontrollers.
The BS2 did the same before it. And all the recent open-source FPGA code has allowed people to get started with understanding how a microcontroller architecture is created without paying hefty tuitions from institutions of higher learning.
There is nothing wrong with learning bit-banging, learning to code your own SPI in assembler, learning to write your own Forth engineer, and so on. If fact, there is a lot more learning to doing these things that just expecting a large language such as Python or C++ to be easy entry for begineers.
Regardless of the size of ATMEL or Broadcome, Parallax products do continue to appear in unique and creative solutions by some really intelligent and hard-working people.
In many many ways, Parallax has been on the leading edge of offering an educational experience for next to nothing. It has been able to crete devices that inspire greater creativity. And other's have followed by flooding the market with a vast array of boards while promising the education will follow. Now we get nay-sayers that say Parallax is passe and not relevant.
Personally, I think it is just the opposite. The Propeller 1 is more relevant than ever... just because it is so different, so small, and does so much with so little. While it may never be used in a smart phone or clock as fast as one, it will teach and keep teach again and again. It's small size and limited resources are actually educational strengths. Those that ignore it, will just learn less or take longer to realize many of the fundaments of microcontrollers.
The Propeller 2 certainly will be a welcome addition for bigger DIY projects and larger scale learning experiences. Also, it will have features that Propeller 1 users want and likely some pleasant suprises. For people that really want to learn, it will open new doors with new horizons.
I.... And so does the idea that Arduino or the Raspberry Pi Foundation can do microcontroller education any better than a small concern with a different product......
........If fact, there is a lot more learning to doing these things that just expecting a large language such as Python or C++ to be easy entry for begineers.
........And other's have followed by flooding the market with a vast array of boards while promising the education will follow........
....... many of the fundaments of microcontrollers.
.....For people that really want to learn, it will open new doors with new horizons.
Loopy,
You continue to rip on the Raspberry Pi Foundation (RPF) as some empty, evil empire that is looking to prey on children by selling their parents a $35 computer and then stealing away their candy.
None of this is said to take anything away from Parallax, their educational programs and their *FREE* materials are top notch and they are a fantastic gateway to learning the fundamentals of microcontrollers.
Have you actually looked at the empty educational promises of the RPF?
Have you gone through the materials in their Teach/Learn/Make sections on their website from the perspective of a teacher or pre-university student?
Have you read through the 137 page educational guide for getting started with Sketch with the eyes of someone that has never programmed before?
Worked through their Python guides? Investigated how they are teaching programming with Minecraft?
Have you watched the videos of the results of their various Pi camps, Raspberry Jams and other educational outreach events (I know, outreach to me is corporate propaganda to drum up sales of their $35 board and probably all internally generated disinformation materials much like the moon landing hoax)?
Have you sat down at a Raspberry Pi, tried it and found it lacking as a potential educational tool? (Yes, I know, the CubbieBoard is a superior tool for a developer and learning Linux and everything else.)
I sincerely believe the heart of the RPF is into education as much as I believe the heart of Parallax is into education. They are taking different approaches to the same goal. I don't attribute any cynical or dishonest corporate motives to either.
I also believe that because of the unique position of both, they can compliment each other. I just finished setting up a complete Propeller (C/C++/Spin/Pasm) development environment on my $35 Raspberry Pi. It works! I don't have to worry about anything happening to my expensive desktop or laptop if I install something bad or mess up or just want to start over. For probably around $150 (depending on the deal you can get on monitors), you can put this at a kid's desk a bit more if you want to replace the Quickstart with an Activity Board. How cool is that!! How many windows does that open up?
The challenge goes back to the Propeller community. Outside of the focused Learn efforts, the Prop software is fragmented, disorganized, incomplete and lacking some basic interface capabilities and examples that make people go to Arduino and other microcontrollers.
So everybody, take a call to action. The P2 will happen or it won't, Parallax will grow and thrive or it won't. Nothing you can write here or argue here will change the outcome. Don't fret and worry and complain and argue about the P2 or the future of Parallax or how it would be a better company if they only did this and this like the companies 1000 times as big are doing. Contribute something, make a project, organize a library, write a guide that would make someone want to try a Propeller, write a kid oriented Spin curriculum. Those kinds of actions and that kind of time spent CAN help!!
I'm taking this to heart, I can easily wander around from project to project and shiny thing to shiny thing without any focus (I do this daily) or I can try and set goals that will contribute back to this community I enjoy, this company I admire and this microcontroller I really have fun with. The aimless wandering is very frustrating and obviously unrewarding, hopefully, an effort directed toward something will be more satisfying.
You continue to rip on the Raspberry Pi Foundation (RPF) as some empty, evil empire that is looking to prey on children by selling their parents a $35 computer and then stealing away their candy.
None of this is said to take anything away from Parallax, their educational programs and their *FREE* materials are top notch and they are a fantastic gateway to learning the fundamentals of microcontrollers.
This may NOT be the proper thread to thrash out my adversity to the Raspberry Pi in detail. So I guess I should send you a PM explaining how I feel based on what was and how the Raspberry Pi was introduced in the Parallax Forums and relentlessly touted itself.
I just feel that this is Parallax's Forum for its products and both the Arduino and Raspberry Pi overstepped the bounds of decency. They simply were present here to shamelessly promote themselves.
Additonally, Raspberry Pi quite early on asserted it was the perfect device for children 10 years old and younger. Frankly, having to learn all of Linux, a GCC tool chain, and more seems like asking a child to start out with Calculus.
The whole computer industry has long abused the term 'educational' as much as a travelling encyclopedia salesman. Introductory material to young children takes knowlegible and experienced educators. I do admit there is the occassional child whose brilliant dad or mother jump starts the process -- but that is not what was claimed. These devices are suppose to educate each and every kid and for pennies.
The reality is the quite different. The Pi needs a keyboard and an HDMI monitor, so there is an immediate need to spend more $$$$. I just feel that any parent could do better by buying a 2nd hand computer in good order and load Linux.... but that wasn't a credit card sized computer. (Why is that important to child ducation?)
BTW, originally Heater was claiming the Raspberry Pi would be the accessory of the Propeller. Now the Propeller is the accessory of the Raspberry Pi. Something that was obvious to me from the beginning.
Maybe this is related to Heater's comment above, but here's a potential I/O device Propeller tie-in to the Raspberry Pi and Minecraft world. (e.g. see the book Adventures in Minecraft.) Rather than using an Arduino Pro Micro use a Propeller board such as the QuickStart for an interface device like this:
Someone could probably whip this up quickly, and then expand it in interesting ways. If the users tire of using something like a Quickstart to interface with a Minecraft server on a Mac/PC then all of Parallax's other educational resources are there. A gentle introduction might be using the QuickStart touch sensors as virtual GPIs to control things on the server. Others might have better ideas - e.g. interface a Wii nunchuck. I think this would demo well for Parallax.
For the record, I have no problem with having the Raspberry Pi 1 or 2 provide the IDE to program the Propeller and to then use the Propeller as a deterministic i/o accessory. It is an excellent fit and very compact.
I just was and still am deeping offended by the whole crowd funding blitz that jumped from one impossible promise to the next and pounded me with shame over denying the noble educational cause of the Raspberry Pi Foundation whenever I called attention to such. It was all a simple propaganda blitz that refused to allow anyone voice an opposition.
And that is why I have doubts about the noble educational value of their product. As for the Arduino, it is an entirely different story, one of artists and sketches. Very playful, but not directly teaching computer programing skills.
It like the way Parallax supports learning and it fits into my idea of what teachers really need.
I am quite pleased that I can get a 30 some odd dollar thing, hook it to my Propeller thing, and other things, using open source software.
Bill Henning is making spiffy Raspi Propeller setups. Parallax is now open and more relevant adopting GitHub, and open code in general.
Others are investing time in relevant, practical, open tools too.
Our users here share a lot and run all manner of things, are considerate, informed, skills and often wise.
Frankly, it is very hard to cite a better deal than isn't retro.
For years, I carried Prop stuff around with a laptop, learning on the go, hotel rooms, etc...
I can still do that, and will do that too. Having the Pi in the mix changes nothing, only adds.
Now, I can use a Pi and make things that use Propellers, and whatever else I want, and do so without an expensive PC and OS being part of the mix, and if I really want to, I can strip it all down to the nubs, and run it for years, completely out of the ongoing bubble of updates, etc...
Having the Pi exist very considerably reduces my costs and increases my choices.
Promoting this is no different from any other disruptive and enabling thing. People see value and share it.
To be perfectly frank, framing it in any other way reeks of sour grapes associated with some other competing agenda that really should be discussed on its merits rather than 8n negative terms associated with the people behind the Pi.
Frankly, having to learn all of Linux, a GCC tool chain, and more seems like asking a child to start out with Calculus.
I just feel that any parent could do better by buying a 2nd hand computer in good order and load Linux.... but that wasn't a credit card sized computer. (Why is that important to child ducation?)
OK, so it's HARDER to learn all of Linux on a Raspberry Pi that has all the supporting information, tutorials and examples gathered in one place than it is to have any parent "do better by buying a 2nd hand computer in good order and load Linux"? At least with the RasPi in an educational environment, you have a teacher who is gaining familiarity with the RasPi and has more standard resources...as opposed to dad having found a good deal on a laptop that happens to have a Wifi chip that isn't commonly supported by Linux (I have one of those!). Most "any parent" doesn't have a clue about installing Linux. Most teachers won;t be able to help as well, but they can help with something they have seen and worked with....like a Raspberry Pi.
I'm not sure WHY anyone needs to learn all of Linux and a GCC tool chain to use PropellerIDE to program a Propeller in Spin on a Linux system any more than they need to learn a GCC toolchain and all of Windows to use Propeller Tool on a Windows system - they don't for either. Currently , installing PropellerIDE requires a few steps at a Linux terminal to install. I think with a little more work, it can be packaged to be a much better install for most common Linux distributions. Wait, with a Raspberry Pi, the school/teacher could have standard SD cards made up that have the environment pre-installed......something they can't do with the 2nd hand laptop.
I just feel that this is Parallax's Forum for its products and both the Arduino and Raspberry Pi overstepped the bounds of decency. They simply were present here to shamelessly promote themselves.
I don't understand this. I don't think anyone from the Raspberry Pi Foundation has been on the forums overstepping any lines. I think many of the forum members have found the RasPi an interesting and exciting development tool (toy) with a lot of potential to compliment the Propeller. I can's account for any bounds of decency being overstepped by others. I've always seen them complimenting either with the RasPi being a development workstation or the Propeller being an I/O assistant to the RasPi.
I think from what I've read, seen and heard, that the RPF has worked a lot with educators to come up with materials that are proper for the respective target brains of mush being addressed.
I've not brought up Arduino and won't because they are competition and do not have a complimentary role to the Propeller.
You have no Python references in your posts here so I have to assume you are being serious.
As such I have to say your comments are shameful.
The good folks who dreamed up the Pi to address an obvious, to them, educational need have been pursuing their goal for nearly ten years. Before there was a Raspberry Pi Foundation. Before any Broadcom chip was selected. They did the work, they built prototypes, they put their own money into the idea. They only expected it to be a small project with ten thousand units ever made in it's life time.
I am very sure the same is true of the folks behind the Arduino although I do not know so much about that.
You conflate this with the profit motives of Broadcom and Atmel. I don't know why. They are in the business of building chips for money. Lucky for us that they do.
Your statements about educational materials and so on show that you have no idea what these guys are doing.
Your statements about "crowd funding blitz" are totally out of whack. You are "deeply offended" by something that did not happen and does not exist here. What "crowd funding" is involved here? Like I said the guys who did this put their own cash into it.
Yes you should be "pounded ...with shame" for denying the noble educational cause of the Raspberry Pi Foundation. Just check out what they are up to and realize the error of this denial.
As for Raspberry Pi supporters infiltrating these forums. Well, that would be me, and Bill Henning, and Potatohead, others who see an opportunity to use these devices together. Thus promoting Propeller usage.
Why do you have such a downer on all this good stuff?
Who cares what the RPF's intentions are? In a week I'll be using Raspberry Pis to teach kids electronics/programming by programming the Prop with it. This could have been secretly designed by Pinky and the Brain with the intent of taking over the world, and I still consider it to be a great educational tool.
Overhyped? Maybe.
Worth $35? You bet! And I have no doubt the P2 will be worth what they ask for it. They each have their uses, and use them I shall.
In my opinion we need to discuss the uses of various educational tools, rather than our perception of the motives of the developers and sellers of those tools.
For example, we could increase Parallax exposure by making and documenting projects using the Prop and Pi in tandem. Wouldn't that benefit the kids, us, and Parallax? Wouldn't it serve more purpose than speculating motives?
In my opinion we need to discuss the uses of various educational tools, rather than our perception of the motives of the developers and sellers of those tools.
For example, we could increase Parallax exposure by making and documenting projects using the Prop and Pi in tandem. Wouldn't that benefit the kids, us, and Parallax? Wouldn't it serve more purpose than speculating motives?
Of course, but some also like " speculating motives".
Focusing on the Pi-Prop connect for example, I've found the Pi can run to 4MBd (maybe more, but no examples yet ?)
The Prop can also get serial into the MBd area, with some care, & there is real benefit in pushing this as high as both ends can practically manage. (especially if the alternatives cannot match that speed)
Of course, but some also like " speculating motives".
Focusing on the Pi-Prop connect for example, I've found the Pi can run to 4MBd (maybe more, but no examples yet ?)
The Prop can also get serial into the MBd area, with some care, & there is real benefit in pushing this as high as both ends can practically manage. (especially if the alternatives cannot match that speed)
Banana PI is an alternative. Benchmarks I am seeing seem to favor it over the raspberry PI
Banana PI is an alternative. Benchmarks I am seeing seem to favor it over the raspberry PI
Bill Henning has done good reviews including benchmarks for many single board computers including the Pis. Check them out at mikronauts.com and see how Bananas stack up against Raspberries and Raspberry 2s.
I still fail to see why Parallax hasn't taken a golden opportunity as I see it, and actually put some small amount of focus on trying to marry the P1 with the Pi. The Pi/Pi2 has a known deficiency in IO, and the Prop really is sort of a no brainer. Bill has his board out, which seems to be doing pretty well for the exposure he's had. Would seem to be a classic case study for niching into the Pi ecosystem, and increasing Prop's exposure.
Every school usually has numerous monitors and keyboards/mice available, or can get them through the local school district (old CRT's, etc).
So the complaints about needing that equipment is specious. The Pi in retrospect is disruptive.
From a computing perspective and the IoT/hobbiest. I don't see it going away, and the TCO is no different than the BS kit or a potential PropStamp kit. Having a kit that would add ADC, DAC, and all the Obex peripherals to 1M educational Pi's seems like a nice market niche to explore.
Not sure if there is some sort of Not Invented Here thing going on or what.
I still fail to see why Parallax hasn't taken a golden opportunity as I see it, and actually put some small amount of focus on trying to marry the P1 with the Pi.
Yes to all that.
The moment the Pi came out a few folks here started debating the idea of building "Propeller Plates". Boards carrying a Propeller in a Pi compatible form factor. I started getting the Propeller dev tools running on the Pi. SimpleIDE, openspin, the loader. Bill Henning is the one who has made the most inroads with this idea.
It was suggested back then that Parallax should have such a board and support in it's line up.
Parallax has been distracted by the whims of people who want to program Props from their iPads and such. So they have missed the opportunity here.
I'll admit that I don't particularly pay close attention to RasPi usages, but when there's mention of projects utilizing it on the sites I frequent, IO interfacing consists of only a small fraction of them, and even those projects don't tend to do much heavy duty IO. The majority of uses seem to be desktop "lites" and something along the lines of HTPCs. If this is indeed true, then I don't think there's much in it for Parallax to go after such a tiny niche, especially since it could likely be served sufficiently by others such as Bill with his RoboPi, etc.
Comments
He didn't say that in the video either (unless I missed it) . However, it's good to know and explains a few things. At least now we know the whole story
Eben does indeed say all the things I have quoted in his keynote talk at PyCon in 2013. http://www.raspberrypi.org/ebens-keynote-at-pycon/ that is where the transcript I linked to above comes from.
Of course, regardless of the nice folk-lore yarn, there must have been other business cases for the ARM.
Clearly, ir was not placed in there on a RaspPi whim.
It's a pretty logical addition, if the die really is skewed so much to the GPU, as to make any GPU sing, you need a tightly couple processor - external bus lines are not really modern design practice.
So it would be an easy 'sell' in any company.
You can get a hint from looking at the ARM revenues. They make no silicon, so income is royalties/licenses.
Some companies negotiate broader license terms, so their royalties are less.
My group liked non-ARM processors which were flat fee for our smallest chips - either unlimited reuse or per design licenses. Using something non-ARM also keeps people from trying to share your processor for other tasks when they integrate your design as IP ;-)
http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/stocks/summary/company-summary.html?fourWayKey=GB0000595859GBGBXSET1
Revenue for 2014: £795.20 million.
I would not call this story a "folk-lore yarn", it is told to us by one of the significant participants.
I concur with what you say about tight coupling and external bus lines.
There is a little more to the story though. Eben - "In about 2008 we had in our hands, based on a mobile phone graphics processor that we'd developed in Cambridge, we had a device which we thought was almost good enough. This was a device which didn't have an open processor - it had a closed, proprietary RISC core in it. And we ported C Python to it."
So there we have it. The chip was a self-contained SoC already but it was proprietary. It may well have remained so if Eben had not suggested the ARM. Which was itself an idea prompted by Eben's long running Pi project.
I suppose that ATMEL and Broadcom consider the Arduino and Raspberry Pi as 'charity work' or a chance to promote their productly earlier in the careers of budding engineers and to grab some attention for brand identity from the naive and curious in the consumer market. I've yet to see how either is teaching as much as it claims. Recently, Lego laid claim to being the most recognized brand in the world and mentioned its educational advantage in the same article. To me, it is just yet another abuse of the term 'educational'.
I feel that Lego, Arduino, and Raspbery Pi are image driven entities and people involved tend to reject that other options are valid.. just because it is the image that drives the popularity and growth, not so much educational substance. It seems more promotional, than educational.
The idea that Parallax should just pack up and go away because it isn't a big company offends me. So does the idea that some sort of media blitz and over night creation of a brand identity is sound education. And so does the idea that Arduino or the Raspberry Pi Foundation can do microcontroller education any better than a small concern with a different product.
The unique architecture of the Propeller has provided diverse opportunities to educate on how much can be done differently in microcontrollers.
The BS2 did the same before it. And all the recent open-source FPGA code has allowed people to get started with understanding how a microcontroller architecture is created without paying hefty tuitions from institutions of higher learning.
There is nothing wrong with learning bit-banging, learning to code your own SPI in assembler, learning to write your own Forth engineer, and so on. If fact, there is a lot more learning to doing these things that just expecting a large language such as Python or C++ to be easy entry for begineers.
Regardless of the size of ATMEL or Broadcome, Parallax products do continue to appear in unique and creative solutions by some really intelligent and hard-working people.
In many many ways, Parallax has been on the leading edge of offering an educational experience for next to nothing. It has been able to crete devices that inspire greater creativity. And other's have followed by flooding the market with a vast array of boards while promising the education will follow. Now we get nay-sayers that say Parallax is passe and not relevant.
Personally, I think it is just the opposite. The Propeller 1 is more relevant than ever... just because it is so different, so small, and does so much with so little. While it may never be used in a smart phone or clock as fast as one, it will teach and keep teach again and again. It's small size and limited resources are actually educational strengths. Those that ignore it, will just learn less or take longer to realize many of the fundaments of microcontrollers.
The Propeller 2 certainly will be a welcome addition for bigger DIY projects and larger scale learning experiences. Also, it will have features that Propeller 1 users want and likely some pleasant suprises. For people that really want to learn, it will open new doors with new horizons.
Loopy,
You continue to rip on the Raspberry Pi Foundation (RPF) as some empty, evil empire that is looking to prey on children by selling their parents a $35 computer and then stealing away their candy.
None of this is said to take anything away from Parallax, their educational programs and their *FREE* materials are top notch and they are a fantastic gateway to learning the fundamentals of microcontrollers.
Have you actually looked at the empty educational promises of the RPF?
Have you gone through the materials in their Teach/Learn/Make sections on their website from the perspective of a teacher or pre-university student?
Have you read through the 137 page educational guide for getting started with Sketch with the eyes of someone that has never programmed before?
Worked through their Python guides? Investigated how they are teaching programming with Minecraft?
Have you watched the videos of the results of their various Pi camps, Raspberry Jams and other educational outreach events (I know, outreach to me is corporate propaganda to drum up sales of their $35 board and probably all internally generated disinformation materials much like the moon landing hoax)?
Have you sat down at a Raspberry Pi, tried it and found it lacking as a potential educational tool? (Yes, I know, the CubbieBoard is a superior tool for a developer and learning Linux and everything else.)
I sincerely believe the heart of the RPF is into education as much as I believe the heart of Parallax is into education. They are taking different approaches to the same goal. I don't attribute any cynical or dishonest corporate motives to either.
I also believe that because of the unique position of both, they can compliment each other. I just finished setting up a complete Propeller (C/C++/Spin/Pasm) development environment on my $35 Raspberry Pi. It works! I don't have to worry about anything happening to my expensive desktop or laptop if I install something bad or mess up or just want to start over. For probably around $150 (depending on the deal you can get on monitors), you can put this at a kid's desk a bit more if you want to replace the Quickstart with an Activity Board. How cool is that!! How many windows does that open up?
The challenge goes back to the Propeller community. Outside of the focused Learn efforts, the Prop software is fragmented, disorganized, incomplete and lacking some basic interface capabilities and examples that make people go to Arduino and other microcontrollers.
So everybody, take a call to action. The P2 will happen or it won't, Parallax will grow and thrive or it won't. Nothing you can write here or argue here will change the outcome. Don't fret and worry and complain and argue about the P2 or the future of Parallax or how it would be a better company if they only did this and this like the companies 1000 times as big are doing. Contribute something, make a project, organize a library, write a guide that would make someone want to try a Propeller, write a kid oriented Spin curriculum. Those kinds of actions and that kind of time spent CAN help!!
I'm taking this to heart, I can easily wander around from project to project and shiny thing to shiny thing without any focus (I do this daily) or I can try and set goals that will contribute back to this community I enjoy, this company I admire and this microcontroller I really have fun with. The aimless wandering is very frustrating and obviously unrewarding, hopefully, an effort directed toward something will be more satisfying.
Ooops, was this thing on????
to do vision processing for the Propeller.
I see things the other way around. Whatever app is running on the Pi, using vision processing or not, the Propeller is just a smart I/O device for it.
This may NOT be the proper thread to thrash out my adversity to the Raspberry Pi in detail. So I guess I should send you a PM explaining how I feel based on what was and how the Raspberry Pi was introduced in the Parallax Forums and relentlessly touted itself.
I just feel that this is Parallax's Forum for its products and both the Arduino and Raspberry Pi overstepped the bounds of decency. They simply were present here to shamelessly promote themselves.
Additonally, Raspberry Pi quite early on asserted it was the perfect device for children 10 years old and younger. Frankly, having to learn all of Linux, a GCC tool chain, and more seems like asking a child to start out with Calculus.
The whole computer industry has long abused the term 'educational' as much as a travelling encyclopedia salesman. Introductory material to young children takes knowlegible and experienced educators. I do admit there is the occassional child whose brilliant dad or mother jump starts the process -- but that is not what was claimed. These devices are suppose to educate each and every kid and for pennies.
The reality is the quite different. The Pi needs a keyboard and an HDMI monitor, so there is an immediate need to spend more $$$$. I just feel that any parent could do better by buying a 2nd hand computer in good order and load Linux.... but that wasn't a credit card sized computer. (Why is that important to child ducation?)
BTW, originally Heater was claiming the Raspberry Pi would be the accessory of the Propeller. Now the Propeller is the accessory of the Raspberry Pi. Something that was obvious to me from the beginning.
only to send data back to the Prop. I think the Propeller 2 being faster that things will get even better. By the way my Pi 2
is set back to 900mhz. I had it act up twice @ 1Ghz.
https://github.com/whaleygeek/anyio
Someone could probably whip this up quickly, and then expand it in interesting ways. If the users tire of using something like a Quickstart to interface with a Minecraft server on a Mac/PC then all of Parallax's other educational resources are there. A gentle introduction might be using the QuickStart touch sensors as virtual GPIs to control things on the server. Others might have better ideas - e.g. interface a Wii nunchuck. I think this would demo well for Parallax.
I just was and still am deeping offended by the whole crowd funding blitz that jumped from one impossible promise to the next and pounded me with shame over denying the noble educational cause of the Raspberry Pi Foundation whenever I called attention to such. It was all a simple propaganda blitz that refused to allow anyone voice an opposition.
And that is why I have doubts about the noble educational value of their product. As for the Arduino, it is an entirely different story, one of artists and sketches. Very playful, but not directly teaching computer programing skills.
It like the way Parallax supports learning and it fits into my idea of what teachers really need.
Bill Henning is making spiffy Raspi Propeller setups. Parallax is now open and more relevant adopting GitHub, and open code in general.
Others are investing time in relevant, practical, open tools too.
Our users here share a lot and run all manner of things, are considerate, informed, skills and often wise.
Frankly, it is very hard to cite a better deal than isn't retro.
For years, I carried Prop stuff around with a laptop, learning on the go, hotel rooms, etc...
I can still do that, and will do that too. Having the Pi in the mix changes nothing, only adds.
Now, I can use a Pi and make things that use Propellers, and whatever else I want, and do so without an expensive PC and OS being part of the mix, and if I really want to, I can strip it all down to the nubs, and run it for years, completely out of the ongoing bubble of updates, etc...
Having the Pi exist very considerably reduces my costs and increases my choices.
Promoting this is no different from any other disruptive and enabling thing. People see value and share it.
To be perfectly frank, framing it in any other way reeks of sour grapes associated with some other competing agenda that really should be discussed on its merits rather than 8n negative terms associated with the people behind the Pi.
OK, so it's HARDER to learn all of Linux on a Raspberry Pi that has all the supporting information, tutorials and examples gathered in one place than it is to have any parent "do better by buying a 2nd hand computer in good order and load Linux"? At least with the RasPi in an educational environment, you have a teacher who is gaining familiarity with the RasPi and has more standard resources...as opposed to dad having found a good deal on a laptop that happens to have a Wifi chip that isn't commonly supported by Linux (I have one of those!). Most "any parent" doesn't have a clue about installing Linux. Most teachers won;t be able to help as well, but they can help with something they have seen and worked with....like a Raspberry Pi.
I'm not sure WHY anyone needs to learn all of Linux and a GCC tool chain to use PropellerIDE to program a Propeller in Spin on a Linux system any more than they need to learn a GCC toolchain and all of Windows to use Propeller Tool on a Windows system - they don't for either. Currently , installing PropellerIDE requires a few steps at a Linux terminal to install. I think with a little more work, it can be packaged to be a much better install for most common Linux distributions. Wait, with a Raspberry Pi, the school/teacher could have standard SD cards made up that have the environment pre-installed......something they can't do with the 2nd hand laptop.
I don't understand this. I don't think anyone from the Raspberry Pi Foundation has been on the forums overstepping any lines. I think many of the forum members have found the RasPi an interesting and exciting development tool (toy) with a lot of potential to compliment the Propeller. I can's account for any bounds of decency being overstepped by others. I've always seen them complimenting either with the RasPi being a development workstation or the Propeller being an I/O assistant to the RasPi.
I think from what I've read, seen and heard, that the RPF has worked a lot with educators to come up with materials that are proper for the respective target brains of mush being addressed.
I've not brought up Arduino and won't because they are competition and do not have a complimentary role to the Propeller.
You have no Python references in your posts here so I have to assume you are being serious.
As such I have to say your comments are shameful.
The good folks who dreamed up the Pi to address an obvious, to them, educational need have been pursuing their goal for nearly ten years. Before there was a Raspberry Pi Foundation. Before any Broadcom chip was selected. They did the work, they built prototypes, they put their own money into the idea. They only expected it to be a small project with ten thousand units ever made in it's life time.
I am very sure the same is true of the folks behind the Arduino although I do not know so much about that.
You conflate this with the profit motives of Broadcom and Atmel. I don't know why. They are in the business of building chips for money. Lucky for us that they do.
Your statements about educational materials and so on show that you have no idea what these guys are doing.
Your statements about "crowd funding blitz" are totally out of whack. You are "deeply offended" by something that did not happen and does not exist here. What "crowd funding" is involved here? Like I said the guys who did this put their own cash into it.
Yes you should be "pounded ...with shame" for denying the noble educational cause of the Raspberry Pi Foundation. Just check out what they are up to and realize the error of this denial.
As for Raspberry Pi supporters infiltrating these forums. Well, that would be me, and Bill Henning, and Potatohead, others who see an opportunity to use these devices together. Thus promoting Propeller usage.
Why do you have such a downer on all this good stuff?
Overhyped? Maybe.
Worth $35? You bet! And I have no doubt the P2 will be worth what they ask for it. They each have their uses, and use them I shall.
In my opinion we need to discuss the uses of various educational tools, rather than our perception of the motives of the developers and sellers of those tools.
For example, we could increase Parallax exposure by making and documenting projects using the Prop and Pi in tandem. Wouldn't that benefit the kids, us, and Parallax? Wouldn't it serve more purpose than speculating motives?
Of course, but some also like " speculating motives".
Focusing on the Pi-Prop connect for example, I've found the Pi can run to 4MBd (maybe more, but no examples yet ?)
The Prop can also get serial into the MBd area, with some care, & there is real benefit in pushing this as high as both ends can practically manage. (especially if the alternatives cannot match that speed)
Banana PI is an alternative. Benchmarks I am seeing seem to favor it over the raspberry PI
Any links to what serial speeds the Banana PI can support ? - those numbers are the most Prop relevant.
Bill Henning has done good reviews including benchmarks for many single board computers including the Pis. Check them out at mikronauts.com and see how Bananas stack up against Raspberries and Raspberry 2s.
http://www.htpcguides.com/raspberry-pi-vs-pi-2-vs-banana-pi-pro-benchmarks/
Every school usually has numerous monitors and keyboards/mice available, or can get them through the local school district (old CRT's, etc).
So the complaints about needing that equipment is specious. The Pi in retrospect is disruptive.
From a computing perspective and the IoT/hobbiest. I don't see it going away, and the TCO is no different than the BS kit or a potential PropStamp kit. Having a kit that would add ADC, DAC, and all the Obex peripherals to 1M educational Pi's seems like a nice market niche to explore.
Not sure if there is some sort of Not Invented Here thing going on or what.
The moment the Pi came out a few folks here started debating the idea of building "Propeller Plates". Boards carrying a Propeller in a Pi compatible form factor. I started getting the Propeller dev tools running on the Pi. SimpleIDE, openspin, the loader. Bill Henning is the one who has made the most inroads with this idea.
It was suggested back then that Parallax should have such a board and support in it's line up.
Parallax has been distracted by the whims of people who want to program Props from their iPads and such. So they have missed the opportunity here.