When do you expect Parallax to produce Forth course materials?
Parallax wouldn't do that, the FORTH users would do it. I'm not promising that it would great, or quick, or understandable by folks that don't want to use it.
This is the way it always get done, with or without backing.
Thread is long, I'm only up to page 4, but here's what I got:
a) The iPad issue is Apple's choice to specifically exclude us from using the iPad without generating profit for Apple. Fair enough.
b) The cheap bluetooth modules don't work with iPad because of the Apple limits on the BT stack, event though they work on everything else. Bummer for iPad users.
c) Even with the bluetooth connection, we still need a workstation of some sort to program the prop.
d) The prop will need some extra hardware, maybe a dongle
e) the RPi can be that dongle, it works great and is cheap and flexible
f) the RPi can aslo serve as the workstation for programming the prop
g) a web interface to the prop (via the RPi) is the only peice thats missing.
Prop Web interface + RPi should work on everything. This is the direction my project is going, RPi + prop works great. Only two things are needed. (1) Prop tools on RPi, I'm think SimpleIDE will provide this. (2) the Web interface to the prop. I think somebody is working on this.
So at least this one solution appears to be happening.
Other solutions seem less likely and or more trouble, such as persuading Apple to play nice, or turning to more expensive dedicated hardware.
Ok, how about this. Since our audience is the classroom, we don't have to worry about supporting complex configurations like different memory models like simpleide does. It can be fairly basic and should be based on C. If someone wants to do spin, basic, Fortran or forth, they can do it from a real computer.
I'm starting to lean towards a graphical web based language over a text one. The drag and drop approach might be pretty good on a tablet browser.
Do we know what Prop boards the typical audience for this application use, or plan to use? Did Ken mention ActivityBots in his initial posts? But, why limit to just one board type? The QuickStart was created to get folks into the Prop at a low cost. The app should support more than a single board type (but, doesn't need to support all the boards that SimpleIDE does).
Why limit the language to just C? Since OpenSpin works well within the same parameters as propgcc, it's basically ready to go (well, as much as C is ready for this ).
A graphical language sounds really simple and easy to use, but are the educators asking for that? And, do those languages scale well as the student gains more knowledge and needs to develop more complex programs? Do graphic, drag & drop solutions provide the students with the programming skills they'll needs as they progress? Will this app be used by just grammar & middle school students? Or should it support high school and university level students, as well? All questions for a 'requirements study' of sorts, I guess...
National Instruments have some software that could serve as inspiration for a solution. The software (NI cDAQ-9191 Data Display) is available from the App Store.
On the National Instruments site I found this. TouchOSC is a universal iPhone / iPod Touch / iPad application that lets you send and receive Open Sound Control messages over a Wi-Fi network using the UDP protocol.
NI seem to have solved the problem of how to connect their stuff to iPads and keep Apple happy enough to allow the software in the App Store.
I used a VNC viewer on my android to connect to the Raspberry Pi, do an apt-get install x11vnc on the RaspPi, then run it from inside Xwindows on the Raspberry Pi.
Naturally, you can used Midori at that point to access the same WebIDE from 127.0.0.1.
Edit: the objective with this configuration is to use the tablet as a screen, while maintaining the use of USB connected keyboard and mouse on the Pi.
I'm still trying to get the SimpleIDE and OpenSpin working. (Would love it if you could elaborate on this)
Jeff
Oh yeah, that route Yes, I've used VNC from iPad to Raspberry Pi, but I see that you want to use the tablet as just a screen, basically. I get it now (duh, on my part). So, not using the RPi as a server for multi tablets. Should work in that case.
Building SimpleIDE and OpenSpin on Raspberry Pi was covered in several forum threads, but I'm at a bit of a loss which ones. (I'll search and post some links). What problems are you seeing?
Thread is long, I'm only up to page 4, but here's what I got:
a) The iPad issue is Apple's choice to specifically exclude us from using the iPad without generating profit for Apple. Fair enough.
b) The cheap bluetooth modules don't work with iPad because of the Apple limits on the BT stack, event though they work on everything else. Bummer for iPad users.
g) a web interface to the prop (via the RPi) is the only peice thats missing.
a) I think Ken mentioned that Parallax has some Apple contacts that they are pursuing to ask what solutions might work with iPads. So, it's not out of the question, completely.
b) Actually, the latest iPhones (and probably iPads) use Bluetooth BLE (low power, to conserve batteries) and there is an API for BLE. I don't think there is available similar APIs for Android at this time. There are currently apps for the iPhone, as an example that do work with BT BLE to communicate with OBDII adapters (The ELM 327) on automobiles. So, Apple is not excluding this use.
c) a web-based compiler interface to an RPi that will work with a wireless or USB/serial connection to one or more Prop boards is what has been discussed.
On the one hand, students have an iPad. That is a computer perfectly capable of running the Open Source Spin compiler or propgcc. The iPad has enough processing power and memory to handle these kind of jobs with ease along with graphics capabilities well in excess of what is required to run SimpleIDE or many other IDEs.
Is it practical to think that we can and should run the whole thing on the iPad? I'd like to think so as it would be ideal if we could run the IDE, compiling, fileIO, downloading, etc. all from the iPad (Android and also Chrome OS with a single source code effort) without the need for remote servers, Internet connections, and unusual extra equipment to connect the Propeller... but PropGCC is sitting about about 377 MB and SimpleIDE (including PropGCC) at about 448 MB of required storage space. If that's not too much to ask, then great!
Thank you very much for participating in this thread and helping to solve this problem. As you know, there have been a lot of ideas shared here and various tangents.
To try to summarize it, I put together a Google Doc with two tables containing suggestions, notes, advantages, disadvantages, and suggestees for Propeller Connections and Propeller Development solutions. It contains the highlights (not every detail) of what was suggested by you, in no particular order, along with links and a little extra information I discerned from the discussion and my own research so far along the way.
You are welcome to edit it as well (so will we) to add additional notes, and correct anything you know is wrong or missing. Please keep it concise though.
What's next?
We are still meeting with our Apple contacts to clarify and narrow down this list of possibilities.
We are deciding what the most practical solutions are based on all of this.
We will probably start a new thread inviting you to help in the implementation of a solution or solutions.
We are currently leaning towards a hosted solution with likely RPi involved.
We will probably start a new thread inviting you to help in the implementation of a solution or solutions.
Regarding this point, we would like to parse off the RasPi efforts put out a prize bounty on some RasPi/Prop solutions. We would start another thread specific to RasPi and Propeller, and indicate our goals. For example: (a) Pi to Propeller programming over cable; (b) Pi to Propeller Programming over XBee WiFi or Bluetooth; (c) Internet browser to Pi to Propeller programming, wired or wireless. Heater and others have already achieved some of these goals.
We could provide incentives, but apply them in a way that encourages people to work together rather than as competitive teams. Anything from money to Parallax hardware. The results would need to be documented for permanent placement on our website, with the pieces of software being freely available.
Might this be of interest? Should we proceed, we would define our goals a bit more and start a new thread specifically for this purpose. The iPad effort could dovetail if technology is shareable, but I expect the iPad issue to proceed as well maybe on its own if that's the way it works out.
Something seems wrong to me about this idea of using a Raspberry Pi with a room full of iPads and ActivityBots...
I'm a fan of Raspberry Pi (I've got one in a big pile of other cool stuff I buy and then don't have time for...), but I think they're most useful for people with not a lot of money...
If these kids have iPads and ActivityBots, I don't think that cost is their primary motivation. I'd think they were looking for the best they can buy...
Seems a distortion in The Force....
Anything the Raspberry Pi can do as a micro-computer (NOT, I repeat Not as a micro-controller) can be done on just about any old PC desktop with more flexiblity, better speed, and more server infrastructure. Ubuntu or Debian Linux was developed first and foremost for these machines.
So why does a credit card size computer with a limited USB port have to service a whole classroom of iPads? Or more to the point, should it?
If you want to service the iPads, do it in a direct manner with adequate resources on a Linux based PC. I suppose about the only argument against doing so is that you want to take the device with you when the class in not in session. That just means a laptop might be the true platform of choice.
And, I cannot emphasize strongly enough that Cubieboard is a more completely integrated board for OpenAVR than the Raspberry Pi will ever be.. more USB, more Ram, a Sata interface, and a more stable power bus design.
Just because Raspberry Pi makes the most compelling appeal for public recognition, doesn't make the the best solution for Parallax and the Propeller to support the iPad.
Look here....
Sure it is a bit larger board, but only because there are good reasons to need a bit larger board.
Anything the Raspberry Pi can do as a micro-computer (NOT, I repeat Not as a micro-controller) can be done on just about any old PC desktop with more flexiblity, better speed, and more server infrastructure.
So why does a credit card size computer with a limited USB port have to service a whole classroom of iPads? Or more to the point, should it?
It's intriguing because of low cost and potential extra attention it may bring to the Propeller. It's not a done deal though... there's still deeper proof-of-concept to do and verifying that it can achieve the goal without unacceptable limitations. Not to mention something no one has asked yet... would school IT departments even allow it to be on their network? There's a lot of government-like red tape with school labs/classrooms that we must be aware of and support to make it acceptable.
The attention may be short lived if the Raspberry Pi delivers more clutter and wasted time in managing a tiny bit of hardware with an overly ambitious project.
The physical server platform is important to any real success. I think the $35 'credit card size' microcomputer is certainly has created a buzz, but has not proven itself as even a small household desktop headless server. Having a Sata harddisk attached might really be useful. Having twice the RAM for the server will certainly be useful. Having a board that does NOT require an outboard USB power source to drive a keyboard and mouse seem a bit saner.
And of course, having a board that doesn't create a nest of wires to cause potential problems in a classroom is a good thing too.
Intriguing is not the best parameter for a successful system in a real classroom.
... would school IT departments even allow it to be on their network? There's a lot of government-like red tape with school labs/classrooms that we must be aware of and support to make it acceptable.
Technically, the RasPi, propellers and tablets don't need to be on the school's network. The RasPi could have a router with WiFi plugged into it and it could host a private "lab" network centered around this router and WiFi cloud. This could make maintenance of the RasPi "server" a bit trickier but not impossible.
Anything the Raspberry Pi can do, the Cubieboard can do with less physical integration problems and with better available resources. It is the same chip genre, but a later generation. The increase in cost is an increase is real value as less adapters and fixes have to be included.
The RasPi offers a $35 entry gateway into a scalable land of Linux based servers. If your RasPi runs out of gas, replace it with a ARM based SBC or an Intel based SBC or a commodity desktop PC to a fire breathing multi-core Enterprise level server. Not a bad growth path for a $35 proof of concept or entry level server.
As for the USB power issues, ok, it has two USB ports...let's see, keyboard and mouse, you're out of ports, keyboard/mouse combo and wifi and you're out of ports. Get a good powered USB hub and plug the RasPi, the keyboard, the mouse and the whatever else you need to plug into USB and it's not really an issue.
Anything the Raspberry Pi can do, the Cubieboard can do with less physical integration problems and with better available resources. It is the same chip genre, but a later generation. The increase in cost is an increase is real value as less adapters and fixes have to be included.
Not to be contentious but....
...and which million boards are the Cubieboard folks working on producing/selling?
...where's that CubieBoard Foundation that is targeting promoting education?
...how many CubieBoards are in school programs?
...how many projects can you find using a CubieBoard versus RasPi?
I often avoid the most popular or most common but in this instance, I think the RasPi has a lot going for it. I think it's one of the "cool kids" for a good reason.
Anything the Raspberry Pi can do, the Cubieboard can do with less physical integration problems and with better available resources. It is the same chip genre, but a later generation. The increase in cost is an increase is real value as less adapters and fixes have to be included.
...or Beagleboard for that matter. I agree with this statement, but still own a Raspberry Pi over one of these for one reason, the large support, and large conversation that surrounds it.
I often avoid the most popular or most common but in this instance, I think the RasPi has a lot going for it. I think it's one of the "cool kids" for a good reason.
And I don't. It all seems like an over-the-top media campaign when there are other OpenAVR devices that are better engineering.
I like the Cubieboard for the reasons similar to liking the Propeller over the Arduino... less hype and more intelligence in the user community. If I wanted to follow fads, I would be buying designer jeans.
The testimonials, the foundation, the personalities, themagazine and so on are NOT a reflection of real educational or engineering value. They just indicate there is a big media machine that puts Raspberry Pi in front of everyone. I find it dubious, at best.
Exactly HOW many of those Raspberry Pi school programs have demonstrated successful outcomes that contribute to long term educations goals? Too soon to tell is what I suspect.
Is it practical to think that we can and should run the whole thing on the iPad? I'd like to think so as it would be ideal if we could run the IDE, compiling, fileIO, downloading, etc. all from the iPad (Android and also Chrome OS with a single source code effort) without the need for remote servers, Internet connections, and unusual extra equipment to connect the Propeller... but PropGCC is sitting about about 377 MB and SimpleIDE (including PropGCC) at about 448 MB of required storage space. If that's not too much to ask, then great!
Practical has wide meaning, I'd call this perhaps optimistic and aspirational.
Keep in mind iPads have many variants, and not all are owned by the school.
Sure, keep an eye on how much can be ported onto newest Apple offerings, but that will be a slow pathway.
We are currently leaning towards a hosted solution with likely RPi involved.
That's a good short term target, ( the Apple hosting can run in parallel ), and it can start from 1 iPad -> 1 rPi -> 1 Prop.
and expand from there.
A good question to ask Apple, would be around Text editors on iPad. That should be an easy step, to improve Browser issues.
(but a Browser path should always be a fall-back, so any Mobile device can rumble forward.)
You could also look at companies like Embarcadero, who claim to offer iOS and Android development tools.
We had server environments on UNIX with resources on par with what a Pi has today. So long as a browser based thing is fairly lean, a Pi will be able to serve a number of students. Maybe it gets slow when a few builds at once take off and or people refresh browsers, but that is minor league.
They will work together to sort that out.
I really like the Wi-Fi router idea. Make it the Parallax-Pi network and let 10 - 20 jump on! I'll bet this works well.
Anything the Raspberry Pi can do, the Cubieboard can do with less physical integration problems and with better available resources.
It is not an OR choice, both can be supported, and likely will in the long term.
- A simple litmus test - there are already rPi examples working here, do you have a Cubieboard example to share ?
The Cubieboard website is vague, but I found Google Image search on Cubieboard3. was more informative.
Seems they added a VGA connector
I found these summaries
Cubieboard 3
1* AllWinnerTech SOC A20,ARM® Cortex™-A7 Dual-Core,ARM® Mali400 MP2 Complies with OpenGL ES 2.0/1.1
2* 1GB/2GB DDR3@480MHz (960MTPS) [8GB Flash mentioned elsewhere]
3* HDMI & VGA 1080P display output on-board
4* 10M/100M/1G Ethernet
5* Wifi+BT wireless connection with antenna on-board
6* SATA 2.0 interface support 2.5’ HDD,(for 3.5’ HDD, only need another 12V power input)
7* Storage solution: NAND+MicroSD or TSD+ MicroSD or 2*MicroSD
8* 2 x USB HOST, 1 x OTG, 1 x Toslink (SPDIF Optical), 1 x IR, 4 x LEDs, 1 Headphone, 3 x Keys
9* Power: DC5V @ 2.5A with HDD,support Li-battery & RTC
10* 54 extended pins including
I2S, I2C, SPI, CVBS, LRADC x2,UART, PS2, PWMx2, TS/CSI, IRDA,
LINEIN & FMIN & MICIN, TVIN x 4 with 2.0 pitch connectors
11* PCB size: 11cm * 8cm * 1.4mm, very suited for installing a 2.5’ HDD
Cubieboard 2
Allwinner A20 ARM Cortex-A7
1GB of RAM
4GB of built-in storage
HDMI port
microSD card slot
SATA connector
10/100 Ethernet
2 USB 2.0 ports
1 IR port
96 pin extended interface
The optical link on Cubieboard 3 is interesting, could open up some nice isolated industrial uses.
Wonder what a Prop needs to talk optical ?
There are a ton of boards better/faster/more powerful/make coffee better/blah blah blah than the RPi. We get it. That's not the point. Its 1.5 million reasons and counting is why the RPi has it over the others. An absolute MASSIVE community of people are using these things, and that can't be stressed enough. They are making all kinds of neat, nifty projects with this guy. Stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEyJBcOdjU4
This huge community is especially important when you're not a super linux genius. What are the best features of the Propeller? Its the forums and OBEX, in my opinion.
Folks that beat the RPi up, are usually the folks that get one and then leave them in a pile on a workbench, because they got one the other day with more memory/bigger processor/whatever. Been there. Done that, it's an easy trap to fall into.
Don't knock the Pi because it isn't the most powerful thing out there, you're missing out on a golden opportunity not jumping on this platform with Propellers tied in.
You want to show off PropForth? Demonstrate a Pi running Python with QT GUI talking to a Prop Board running PropForth Kernel for distributed smart IO.
You want to show off all the cool things that can be done with a Prop? Get it into the RPi communities hands. You'll see an exponential amount of people using Props that may never even have heard of Parallax.
Demonstrate something with a Prop/ Pi that can't be done right now with a Arduino / Pi.
Make the tools available and easily usable on the Pi for the Prop (SimpleIDE is awesome on the Pi btw). Get 12blocks written as an IOS app (imaging dragging blocks over from a toolbox and coding that way), and use the Python script method Heater and Dgately showed to compile and send to the Propeller. It fits right in with the Scratch pre-installed on the Pi.
As to hardware, I really wish I could buy a Prop board made for the Pi and just plug it in. For $25 I can get a Pi (Rev A) - couple that with a ~$25 PropPlate (or whatever) and you would have something with a lot of potential. Throw in some hardware that might be missing onto the board (say accelerometers, gyroscopes, RTC, 12bit A-D, Bluetooth chip), omit everything that the Prop boards normally have to have (SD card, VGA, video, etc), add another Prop for pure IO goodness, and bring all the pins out to a header for use elsewhere. You have SPI, I2C and a UART to tie the Pi to the Prop. Pick one or more. Oh, and make it slightly bigger that a Pi and add through holes on it so that IT could be the base board, that the PI could plug into.
You are right of course. If it can be done on the Pi it can be done on any old junker PC or many other little boards like the Cubieboard you mentioned.
That is the beauty of the WEB based IDE idea, it does not tie you to any particular hardware or manufacturer. If it runs Linux it can do it.
@Jeff,
..would school IT departments even allow it to be on their network?
OK let's make this really hard. You can't use three bits or wire, a serial link, because the Apple can't do that. You can't use the network because that's not allowed! So HTF are you supposed to do anything? These educators need a lesson in reality.
Loopy,
Hubris, pure hubris.
I always have to wonder why you have such a downer on the Raspi. It's been put together by honest, hardworking and good people with good intentions and at zero profit to themselves. It happened to take off wildly not through any "hype" on their part. I don't understand the negativity toward the Pi. It's educational and it's fun. It has a great community following, like Parallax and the Arduino. If it does not do what you need it to do then fine, use something that does.
jmg,
Does this expect a Web-hosted compiler, or a native one on the iPad ?
Ideally compiling, C and Spin and whatever, all happens on the server. Which also serves up the web IDE and gets the code to the Propellers and provides terminal and other interfaces back to the target.
Where "server" here is a Raspi or some other device the size of a cigarette packet and costing 50 dollars.
The iPad is just a host for a web browser and can be replace with an Android device or anything else that can surf the web.
I have yet to see a RasPi (or other small Linux board) set up to edit, load and run programs in a Propeller. But I think I'll be seeing this pretty soon.
One thing that comes to mind about this setup that could be very beneficial is that it doesn't require any school IT staff. Dealing with school IT systems is a real headache. From the internet access, software installation privileges, virus contamination, Facebook access, etc. students and teachers loose a lot of time.
Something like a RasPi has no interest from most school IT programs. It's just a little PCB-thingie...at least until it connects to the internet. A RasPi<=Propeller interface wouldn't require any help from an IT department, and could be a limited system that students couldn't also browse the web (but they DO need access to Learn.parallax.com unless educators print out the pages, or the teacher could put it up on the big screen). There are some benefits to the approach.
The Pi is an obvious first step, and this thread already has working examples, but to say it is the only one is like saying there should be only one Phone, or PC out there.
There may even be a natural split, of Small-Host choice, based on class size and resources needed.
Yeah, I own a copy of that system and have been following and participating in their progress in my personal time. I can say first-hand, it works. The OSx and iOS support has been there for about 2.5 years or so now and Android support was out of beta as of August. I haven't mentioned it because it is still maturing and doesn't yet support the broader picture I'm looking at, but I do like where it's going.
Comments
Parallax wouldn't do that, the FORTH users would do it. I'm not promising that it would great, or quick, or understandable by folks that don't want to use it.
This is the way it always get done, with or without backing.
a) The iPad issue is Apple's choice to specifically exclude us from using the iPad without generating profit for Apple. Fair enough.
b) The cheap bluetooth modules don't work with iPad because of the Apple limits on the BT stack, event though they work on everything else. Bummer for iPad users.
c) Even with the bluetooth connection, we still need a workstation of some sort to program the prop.
d) The prop will need some extra hardware, maybe a dongle
e) the RPi can be that dongle, it works great and is cheap and flexible
f) the RPi can aslo serve as the workstation for programming the prop
g) a web interface to the prop (via the RPi) is the only peice thats missing.
Prop Web interface + RPi should work on everything. This is the direction my project is going, RPi + prop works great. Only two things are needed. (1) Prop tools on RPi, I'm think SimpleIDE will provide this. (2) the Web interface to the prop. I think somebody is working on this.
So at least this one solution appears to be happening.
Other solutions seem less likely and or more trouble, such as persuading Apple to play nice, or turning to more expensive dedicated hardware.
Yeah, him too!
BTW, this isn't a slam on those looking at workarounds for the ipad shortcomings, it's a slam on apple for making us come up with such workarounds.
C.W.
Do we know what Prop boards the typical audience for this application use, or plan to use? Did Ken mention ActivityBots in his initial posts? But, why limit to just one board type? The QuickStart was created to get folks into the Prop at a low cost. The app should support more than a single board type (but, doesn't need to support all the boards that SimpleIDE does).
Why limit the language to just C? Since OpenSpin works well within the same parameters as propgcc, it's basically ready to go (well, as much as C is ready for this
A graphical language sounds really simple and easy to use, but are the educators asking for that? And, do those languages scale well as the student gains more knowledge and needs to develop more complex programs? Do graphic, drag & drop solutions provide the students with the programming skills they'll needs as they progress? Will this app be used by just grammar & middle school students? Or should it support high school and university level students, as well? All questions for a 'requirements study' of sorts, I guess...
Just my $.02
dgately
On the National Instruments site I found this. TouchOSC is a universal iPhone / iPod Touch / iPad application that lets you send and receive Open Sound Control messages over a Wi-Fi network using the UDP protocol.
NI seem to have solved the problem of how to connect their stuff to iPads and keep Apple happy enough to allow the software in the App Store.
Sandy
Oh yeah, that route
Building SimpleIDE and OpenSpin on Raspberry Pi was covered in several forum threads, but I'm at a bit of a loss which ones. (I'll search and post some links). What problems are you seeing?
dgately
a) I think Ken mentioned that Parallax has some Apple contacts that they are pursuing to ask what solutions might work with iPads. So, it's not out of the question, completely.
b) Actually, the latest iPhones (and probably iPads) use Bluetooth BLE (low power, to conserve batteries) and there is an API for BLE. I don't think there is available similar APIs for Android at this time. There are currently apps for the iPhone, as an example that do work with BT BLE to communicate with OBDII adapters (The ELM 327) on automobiles. So, Apple is not excluding this use.
c) a web-based compiler interface to an RPi that will work with a wireless or USB/serial connection to one or more Prop boards is what has been discussed.
dgately
I tend to agree... we have to go through crazy hoops to do something now that used to be easy!
Is it practical to think that we can and should run the whole thing on the iPad? I'd like to think so as it would be ideal if we could run the IDE, compiling, fileIO, downloading, etc. all from the iPad (Android and also Chrome OS with a single source code effort) without the need for remote servers, Internet connections, and unusual extra equipment to connect the Propeller... but PropGCC is sitting about about 377 MB and SimpleIDE (including PropGCC) at about 448 MB of required storage space. If that's not too much to ask, then great!
Thank you very much for participating in this thread and helping to solve this problem. As you know, there have been a lot of ideas shared here and various tangents.
To try to summarize it, I put together a Google Doc with two tables containing suggestions, notes, advantages, disadvantages, and suggestees for Propeller Connections and Propeller Development solutions. It contains the highlights (not every detail) of what was suggested by you, in no particular order, along with links and a little extra information I discerned from the discussion and my own research so far along the way.
You can get to this document here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IRcvp3cCoG6inXR8KtWcIUWoOF3IDMf83roKwOFw_O4/edit?usp=sharing
You are welcome to edit it as well (so will we) to add additional notes, and correct anything you know is wrong or missing. Please keep it concise though.
What's next?
Regarding this point, we would like to parse off the RasPi efforts put out a prize bounty on some RasPi/Prop solutions. We would start another thread specific to RasPi and Propeller, and indicate our goals. For example: (a) Pi to Propeller programming over cable; (b) Pi to Propeller Programming over XBee WiFi or Bluetooth; (c) Internet browser to Pi to Propeller programming, wired or wireless. Heater and others have already achieved some of these goals.
We could provide incentives, but apply them in a way that encourages people to work together rather than as competitive teams. Anything from money to Parallax hardware. The results would need to be documented for permanent placement on our website, with the pieces of software being freely available.
Might this be of interest? Should we proceed, we would define our goals a bit more and start a new thread specifically for this purpose. The iPad effort could dovetail if technology is shareable, but I expect the iPad issue to proceed as well maybe on its own if that's the way it works out.
Seems a distortion in The Force....
Anything the Raspberry Pi can do as a micro-computer (NOT, I repeat Not as a micro-controller) can be done on just about any old PC desktop with more flexiblity, better speed, and more server infrastructure. Ubuntu or Debian Linux was developed first and foremost for these machines.
So why does a credit card size computer with a limited USB port have to service a whole classroom of iPads? Or more to the point, should it?
If you want to service the iPads, do it in a direct manner with adequate resources on a Linux based PC. I suppose about the only argument against doing so is that you want to take the device with you when the class in not in session. That just means a laptop might be the true platform of choice.
And, I cannot emphasize strongly enough that Cubieboard is a more completely integrated board for OpenAVR than the Raspberry Pi will ever be.. more USB, more Ram, a Sata interface, and a more stable power bus design.
Just because Raspberry Pi makes the most compelling appeal for public recognition, doesn't make the the best solution for Parallax and the Propeller to support the iPad.
Look here....
Sure it is a bit larger board, but only because there are good reasons to need a bit larger board.
cubieboard.org
It's intriguing because of low cost and potential extra attention it may bring to the Propeller. It's not a done deal though... there's still deeper proof-of-concept to do and verifying that it can achieve the goal without unacceptable limitations. Not to mention something no one has asked yet... would school IT departments even allow it to be on their network? There's a lot of government-like red tape with school labs/classrooms that we must be aware of and support to make it acceptable.
The physical server platform is important to any real success. I think the $35 'credit card size' microcomputer is certainly has created a buzz, but has not proven itself as even a small household desktop headless server. Having a Sata harddisk attached might really be useful. Having twice the RAM for the server will certainly be useful. Having a board that does NOT require an outboard USB power source to drive a keyboard and mouse seem a bit saner.
And of course, having a board that doesn't create a nest of wires to cause potential problems in a classroom is a good thing too.
Intriguing is not the best parameter for a successful system in a real classroom.
Technically, the RasPi, propellers and tablets don't need to be on the school's network. The RasPi could have a router with WiFi plugged into it and it could host a private "lab" network centered around this router and WiFi cloud. This could make maintenance of the RasPi "server" a bit trickier but not impossible.
As for the USB power issues, ok, it has two USB ports...let's see, keyboard and mouse, you're out of ports, keyboard/mouse combo and wifi and you're out of ports. Get a good powered USB hub and plug the RasPi, the keyboard, the mouse and the whatever else you need to plug into USB and it's not really an issue.
Not to be contentious but....
...and which million boards are the Cubieboard folks working on producing/selling?
...where's that CubieBoard Foundation that is targeting promoting education?
...how many CubieBoards are in school programs?
...how many projects can you find using a CubieBoard versus RasPi?
...where is CubieBoard's online magazine
I often avoid the most popular or most common but in this instance, I think the RasPi has a lot going for it. I think it's one of the "cool kids" for a good reason.
...or Beagleboard for that matter. I agree with this statement, but still own a Raspberry Pi over one of these for one reason, the large support, and large conversation that surrounds it.
Jeff
And I don't. It all seems like an over-the-top media campaign when there are other OpenAVR devices that are better engineering.
I like the Cubieboard for the reasons similar to liking the Propeller over the Arduino... less hype and more intelligence in the user community. If I wanted to follow fads, I would be buying designer jeans.
The testimonials, the foundation, the personalities, themagazine and so on are NOT a reflection of real educational or engineering value. They just indicate there is a big media machine that puts Raspberry Pi in front of everyone. I find it dubious, at best.
Exactly HOW many of those Raspberry Pi school programs have demonstrated successful outcomes that contribute to long term educations goals? Too soon to tell is what I suspect.
Hubris, pure hubris.
I think the simplest and maybe lowest cost method would be to use the "Camera Connection Kit" from Apple to copy your program to uSD card.
You'd just stick the uSD card into your ActivityBot and reboot...
Yes, you'd need the bootloader in eeprom, but I don't see any downside to that.
For driving your bot, I think the audio to IR adapter (mentioned by Bean) would be best.
Practical has wide meaning, I'd call this perhaps optimistic and aspirational.
Keep in mind iPads have many variants, and not all are owned by the school.
Sure, keep an eye on how much can be ported onto newest Apple offerings, but that will be a slow pathway.
That's a good short term target, ( the Apple hosting can run in parallel ), and it can start from 1 iPad -> 1 rPi -> 1 Prop.
and expand from there.
A good question to ask Apple, would be around Text editors on iPad. That should be an easy step, to improve Browser issues.
(but a Browser path should always be a fall-back, so any Mobile device can rumble forward.)
You could also look at companies like Embarcadero, who claim to offer iOS and Android development tools.
http://www.embarcadero.com/products/rad-studio/whats-new
It also sounds like a web FAQ will be needed, as comments made already reveal not all iPads are equal, and browsers have some variances.
They will work together to sort that out.
I really like the Wi-Fi router idea. Make it the Parallax-Pi network and let 10 - 20 jump on! I'll bet this works well.
It is not an OR choice, both can be supported, and likely will in the long term.
- A simple litmus test - there are already rPi examples working here, do you have a Cubieboard example to share ?
The Cubieboard website is vague, but I found Google Image search on Cubieboard3. was more informative.
Seems they added a VGA connector
I found these summaries
Cubieboard 3
1* AllWinnerTech SOC A20,ARM® Cortex™-A7 Dual-Core,ARM® Mali400 MP2 Complies with OpenGL ES 2.0/1.1
2* 1GB/2GB DDR3@480MHz (960MTPS) [8GB Flash mentioned elsewhere]
3* HDMI & VGA 1080P display output on-board
4* 10M/100M/1G Ethernet
5* Wifi+BT wireless connection with antenna on-board
6* SATA 2.0 interface support 2.5’ HDD,(for 3.5’ HDD, only need another 12V power input)
7* Storage solution: NAND+MicroSD or TSD+ MicroSD or 2*MicroSD
8* 2 x USB HOST, 1 x OTG, 1 x Toslink (SPDIF Optical), 1 x IR, 4 x LEDs, 1 Headphone, 3 x Keys
9* Power: DC5V @ 2.5A with HDD,support Li-battery & RTC
10* 54 extended pins including
I2S, I2C, SPI, CVBS, LRADC x2,UART, PS2, PWMx2, TS/CSI, IRDA,
LINEIN & FMIN & MICIN, TVIN x 4 with 2.0 pitch connectors
11* PCB size: 11cm * 8cm * 1.4mm, very suited for installing a 2.5’ HDD
Cubieboard 2
Allwinner A20 ARM Cortex-A7
1GB of RAM
4GB of built-in storage
HDMI port
microSD card slot
SATA connector
10/100 Ethernet
2 USB 2.0 ports
1 IR port
96 pin extended interface
The optical link on Cubieboard 3 is interesting, could open up some nice isolated industrial uses.
Wonder what a Prop needs to talk optical ?
Sounds like the sneaker-net option I mentioned above. Physical carry still has a place
One detail glossed over here, is who has compiled 'your program' ?
Does this expect a Web-hosted compiler, or a native one on the iPad ?
I don't see any obstacles for creating an iPad app that can compile spin code...
There are a ton of boards better/faster/more powerful/make coffee better/blah blah blah than the RPi. We get it. That's not the point. Its 1.5 million reasons and counting is why the RPi has it over the others. An absolute MASSIVE community of people are using these things, and that can't be stressed enough. They are making all kinds of neat, nifty projects with this guy. Stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEyJBcOdjU4
This huge community is especially important when you're not a super linux genius. What are the best features of the Propeller? Its the forums and OBEX, in my opinion.
Folks that beat the RPi up, are usually the folks that get one and then leave them in a pile on a workbench, because they got one the other day with more memory/bigger processor/whatever. Been there. Done that, it's an easy trap to fall into.
Don't knock the Pi because it isn't the most powerful thing out there, you're missing out on a golden opportunity not jumping on this platform with Propellers tied in.
You want to show off PropForth? Demonstrate a Pi running Python with QT GUI talking to a Prop Board running PropForth Kernel for distributed smart IO.
You want to show off all the cool things that can be done with a Prop? Get it into the RPi communities hands. You'll see an exponential amount of people using Props that may never even have heard of Parallax.
Demonstrate something with a Prop/ Pi that can't be done right now with a Arduino / Pi.
Make the tools available and easily usable on the Pi for the Prop (SimpleIDE is awesome on the Pi btw). Get 12blocks written as an IOS app (imaging dragging blocks over from a toolbox and coding that way), and use the Python script method Heater and Dgately showed to compile and send to the Propeller. It fits right in with the Scratch pre-installed on the Pi.
As to hardware, I really wish I could buy a Prop board made for the Pi and just plug it in. For $25 I can get a Pi (Rev A) - couple that with a ~$25 PropPlate (or whatever) and you would have something with a lot of potential. Throw in some hardware that might be missing onto the board (say accelerometers, gyroscopes, RTC, 12bit A-D, Bluetooth chip), omit everything that the Prop boards normally have to have (SD card, VGA, video, etc), add another Prop for pure IO goodness, and bring all the pins out to a header for use elsewhere. You have SPI, I2C and a UART to tie the Pi to the Prop. Pick one or more. Oh, and make it slightly bigger that a Pi and add through holes on it so that IT could be the base board, that the PI could plug into.
I'll get off my soapbox now.
You are right of course. If it can be done on the Pi it can be done on any old junker PC or many other little boards like the Cubieboard you mentioned.
That is the beauty of the WEB based IDE idea, it does not tie you to any particular hardware or manufacturer. If it runs Linux it can do it.
@Jeff, OK let's make this really hard. You can't use three bits or wire, a serial link, because the Apple can't do that. You can't use the network because that's not allowed! So HTF are you supposed to do anything? These educators need a lesson in reality.
Loopy, I always have to wonder why you have such a downer on the Raspi. It's been put together by honest, hardworking and good people with good intentions and at zero profit to themselves. It happened to take off wildly not through any "hype" on their part. I don't understand the negativity toward the Pi. It's educational and it's fun. It has a great community following, like Parallax and the Arduino. If it does not do what you need it to do then fine, use something that does.
jmg, Ideally compiling, C and Spin and whatever, all happens on the server. Which also serves up the web IDE and gets the code to the Propellers and provides terminal and other interfaces back to the target.
Where "server" here is a Raspi or some other device the size of a cigarette packet and costing 50 dollars.
The iPad is just a host for a web browser and can be replace with an Android device or anything else that can surf the web.
One thing that comes to mind about this setup that could be very beneficial is that it doesn't require any school IT staff. Dealing with school IT systems is a real headache. From the internet access, software installation privileges, virus contamination, Facebook access, etc. students and teachers loose a lot of time.
Something like a RasPi has no interest from most school IT programs. It's just a little PCB-thingie...at least until it connects to the internet. A RasPi<=Propeller interface wouldn't require any help from an IT department, and could be a limited system that students couldn't also browse the web (but they DO need access to Learn.parallax.com unless educators print out the pages, or the teacher could put it up on the big screen). There are some benefits to the approach.
You seem to presume this is a single choice.
The Pi is an obvious first step, and this thread already has working examples, but to say it is the only one is like saying there should be only one Phone, or PC out there.
There may even be a natural split, of Small-Host choice, based on class size and resources needed.
Yeah, I own a copy of that system and have been following and participating in their progress in my personal time. I can say first-hand, it works. The OSx and iOS support has been there for about 2.5 years or so now and Android support was out of beta as of August. I haven't mentioned it because it is still maturing and doesn't yet support the broader picture I'm looking at, but I do like where it's going.