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New BS1 Starter KIt? — Parallax Forums

New BS1 Starter KIt?

Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
edited 2013-06-18 23:41 in General Discussion
Ken Gracey brought up the idea of a retro BS1 starter kit in another thread. This would be open source, including the interpreter and IDE. I thought this idea deserved its own thread and discussion and raises some questions for discussion:

1) What sort of experiments (and parts) might be included? Think retro too.

2) How would the programming interface be arranged? Would there be a built-in USB-BS1 interface? Would it be plug-in rather than on-board?
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Comments

  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2013-06-14 09:09
    For starters - we have to blink an LED. ;-) Some counting and timing experiments.

    In terms of retro, how about a young Chip Gracey on the box!

    I am with erco, being a robot lover - I would love components for a very simple bot.
  • doggiedocdoggiedoc Posts: 2,243
    edited 2013-06-14 09:19
    I think it is an excellent idea. Tin kit robot motivated by BS1 would be too cool. I think the BS1 is still a very capable microcontroller.
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2013-06-14 09:41
    I think the parts list should be created first. Then people can submit projects that can be made with the available parts.

    Otherwise you just end up with bunch of projects that all require different parts and the cost can get out of hand if you try to include them all.

    This is just my opinion...

    Bean
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-06-14 09:50
    Good call, Mike. As I said in the other thread, IMO a direct USB connection would be critical to the success of a new BS1 board. While we're adding parts, a real ADC or two would be nice. I can dream about IR control, but the BS1 isn't fast enough to read Sony IR codes. But it could count different pulses from a simple 555 IR pulser, as I used with the BS2 on my balancebot.
  • RobotWorkshopRobotWorkshop Posts: 2,307
    edited 2013-06-14 10:33
    It looks like some of the original BS1 Stamp was already decoded a while back:

    http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/robotics/stamp-decode.html

    This does sound like an excellent project/product. If the new project is going to be open source so people can load both the interpreter and the tokenized BS1 code then there should probably be a way to load code into the main chip for the interpreter and also for loading code the normal way into the EEPROM chip on the board.

    Robert
  • icepuckicepuck Posts: 466
    edited 2013-06-14 10:51
    Why not have the option of a chip with just a boot loader, no interpreter?
    -dan
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-06-14 10:58
    Don't kill me, but making a simple BS1 (and BS2) board that was shield-compatible might not be a bad idea.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2013-06-14 10:59
    The BS1 interpreter provides a lot of convenience. The interpretive code is very compact and has a lot of power (specialized statements) for this sort of use (simple control applications, teaching, basic robotics, etc.) The interpreter also provides for debugging. If you want to use the bare chip, you can already find an IDE and boards from a variety of sources. If you use the bare chip, you wouldn't have the benefit of existing documentation and teaching materials.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2013-06-14 11:06
    erco wrote: »
    Don't kill me, but making a simple BS1 (and BS2) board that was shield-compatible might not be a bad idea.

    What kind of shield? QuickStart? Propeller Platform? Arduino? Beagle Bone Cape? Raspberry Pie Plates? PS2 PCI-E? Is there a BS1 or BS2 shield system I don't know about?

    Seriously, the USB connection is a must.

    A parts kit that maps with a set of projects is a must.

    A relay is needed for the true retro feel.

    It sounds like fun! I've never done anything with a BS1, so I'm looking forward to it!
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2013-06-14 11:09
    @erco ... sort of the reverse of the BoeBot adapter board for Arduino? I wouldn't bother with a BS1 version though. It's too limited for the cost. For that sort of application, I'd go for a Propeller shield, conceptually like the Propeller Servo Controller and/or Propeller Backpack. It would have pre-programmed functions that supplement and extend the underlying Arduino board, maybe from a menu on a PC-based loader or jumper selectable. Obviously, it could provide servo or DC-motor control, text / graphics display, a keyboard, and PC-compatible SD-card storage. It would be reprogrammable using C or Spin if the user wanted, but they could just use the built-in functions if they wanted.
  • WhitWhit Posts: 4,191
    edited 2013-06-14 11:45
    I think a simple set of components like Bean is suggesting is a good idea. Other projects could be created, but would not add to the basic kit cost.

    The Stamp 1, USB cable (yes to the idea of USB to BS!, software/IDE (download) breadboard, jumper wires and a few components - like a Basic Stamp activity kit would be enough to teach with or get folks hooked. All backed up with simple courses on the Learn tab.

    I kind of like the plug-in format, but there may be some good reason for a board or even a hybrid like the prop-stick (with less pins of course).

    Edit - just looking - if it stayed compatible with the carrier board - that might be pretty cool
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-06-14 12:17
    And don't kill me again, but if as long as we're dreaming, add some new features to the BS1 (and BS2 eventually). Firmware automatic servo support, PWM, SIRC decoding, I2C, etc. The Athena and PicAxe chips have long had these and more, and sell for just a few dollars.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2013-06-14 12:40
    @erco,
    It's not about "kill me again". It's about cost and other practicality issues. It sounds like Ken is proposing a repackaging of the BS1 as a retro fun kind of thing and taking advantage of the situation to open up both the Stamp Editor and the BS1 interpreter to open-source. His proposal doesn't require any changes to existing software nor any significant software development / support time. We're talking about minor PCB changes along with packaging and product documentation based on existing documentation. In addition to major software work, it's not at all clear that there's the ability to fit any BS1 changes into the existing interpretive code format or the available code space in the PIC.

    Once the internals are made open-source, I'm sure some enterprising energetic person will eventually recast the whole thing using a Prop-1-based interpreter / IDE and all the extra features (and more) will become available. I suspect that the same thing will eventually happen to the BS2.

    Remember that the BS1 uses a PIC16C56 with 1K of (12-bit) instruction memory and 25 bytes of RAM. The BS2 uses a PIC16F57 with 2K flash and 75 bytes of RAM.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-06-14 13:00
    @Mike Green: Well, I dream big. No extra charge. And while we're talking about robots...

    Ken was talking about a 1950's robot-themed cardboard package. Now that's pretty cool. What would be even better is a robot that looked like... a 1950's robot. Scribblers are cool, but they don't grab the imagination like the simple humanoid-ish (Arduino) robot below. The turning head wins big points with kids. That's low hanging fruit! Some kind of modular plastic cubic body/head with room for LEDs and sensors would be cool.
  • TinkersALotTinkersALot Posts: 535
    edited 2013-06-14 13:26
    In the future some adults will recall fondly. I remember my bot in a box. The box was the bot. ;)
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-06-14 15:09
    Anybody remember the Scott Allen Electronics Counterfeit Stamp?

    http://old.seetron.com/pdf/cft_mnl.pdf

    I always wondered what exactly the deal was with that guy and Parallax.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2013-06-14 16:05
    As the Scott Allen documentation says, the PIC16C56 is a genuine Parallax Stamp chip ... with Parallax's proprietary interpreter. He just modified the surrounding support circuitry a little and built his own PCB, much like the OEM kit.
  • TinkersALotTinkersALot Posts: 535
    edited 2013-06-14 16:09
    As long as it blinks buzzes and moves...and maybe has sensors or switches to tickle it with
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-06-14 16:11
    Scott Edwards, I reckon. He was refreshingly bold & brazen to call it the Counterfeit! Truth in advertising.

    He had several nice products that complemented the Parallax line nicely, like his LCD backpack. IIRC he actually sold it thru Parallax.
  • Tim-MTim-M Posts: 522
    edited 2013-06-14 18:17
    Looks like Scott Edwards Electronics is still in business... www.seetron.com

    Tim
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-06-15 05:21
    My greatest appreciation of the BS1 is that it is an extreme low power device that couldn't be beat in some situations.

    On the flip side.
    A. I have never actually bought one in spite of my admiration.
    B. TI has some really good low power alternatives that Parallax could deploy with more programing space.
    C. Retro nostalgia is something that I fear. It does create a big buzz, but often not so many buyers.
    D. The handling and programing is different than the BS2.. which I have, I love, and I understand.

    Maybe a TI MSP430 as an extreme low power BS2 language device might be more useful going forward.

    Of course, if this is just a limited edition nostalgia for old-time's sake, go for it.
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2013-06-15 08:04
    If I understood properly, all this movement will allow me to buy empty PIC, flash in BS1 interpreter, connect eeprom and have fun?

    This looks very interesting, but what profit parallax will gain from that?
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2013-06-15 08:52
    Actually, you won't get an empty PIC. It'll be flashed with the BS1 interpreter already. I can't tell from Ken's suggestion whether he's proposing to just repackage the BS1 OEM Kit, maybe with a new board layout and maybe with a different package of experiments with supporting parts ... along with open-sourcing the whole thing or whether he's going to do the same thing, but with a BS1 Activity Board-like layout ... preassembled board. The latter is probably cheaper because the boards can be assembled automatically and tested while the kit requires more manual parts picking and higher support costs due to problems with purchaser assembly. Parallax will price it to break even and will gain by increasing the perception that Basic Stamps and electronics are fun. As others have mentioned before, the BS1 is still useful as a microcontroller. It's easy to use, reliable, supported by a great deal of documentation, and it's a good fit in terms of speed and program size for a lot of simple projects.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2013-06-15 09:19
    Loopy Byteloose brings up a good issue, but I look at it from a different angle ...

    Once the BS1 interpreter and IDE are made open-source, that makes it much easier for others (not Parallax!) to re-implement the BS1 as open-source on other platforms like the TI MSP430 or the Prop-I. Admittedly, that's been done before as simulators, but not on another microcontroller. Assuming that this works out for Parallax and once the Prop-II is out and doing reasonably well, I suspect Parallax will do the same sort of thing with the BS2.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2013-06-15 11:26
    For the kit, go REALLY retro with the components.

    Small DC-motors instead of servos, for one.
    Add a few microswitches, a couple of lightbulbs and holders, and possibly a couple of transistors to drive them.

    DC-Motors are easier to control than servos or steppers, so require less code.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-06-15 12:27
    Mike Green wrote: »
    Loopy Byteloose brings up a good issue, but I look at it from a different angle ...

    Once the BS1 interpreter and IDE are made open-source, that makes it much easier for others (not Parallax!) to re-implement the BS1 as open-source on other platforms like the TI MSP430 or the Prop-I. Admittedly, that's been done before as simulators, but not on another microcontroller. Assuming that this works out for Parallax and once the Prop-II is out and doing reasonably well, I suspect Parallax will do the same sort of thing with the BS2.

    I wasn't clear on the fact that Parallax intended to actually release all the code for us to see how the BasicStamp interpreter works. That is fascinating. And it may revive some enthusiasm in the BS2 products,... as there are still extremely useful and have excellent documentation and tutorials.

    In other words, there is always a place for Basic and there will always be a new crop of beginners. If this will put a spotlight on the BasicStamps... wonderful.

    I was beginning to ponder a BS3 and what that might be.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-06-15 15:11
    Loopy Byteloose wrote: »
    I was beginning to ponder a BS3 and what that might be.

    I actually get a pretty clear impression from back in the day that it was supposed to feature a Propeller chip, the SX line having got axed. But then the Propeller ran off and got way more capable than anybody realized when Chip was designing it and using it to power a BS3 started to look kind of like bolting a Porsche engine onto a Classic VW Beetle.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2013-06-15 15:31
    Gadgetman,
    Great image. Small DC motors, real lightbulbs (grain of wheat bulbs maybe!), microswitches, transistors and diodes ... maybe transistors in metal cases? Batteries made up of AA cells, maybe even bigger.

    How about 1/2W resistors, maybe vacuum tubes ... there were low voltage ones out that ran nicely off 12V while transistors were just getting started [ ... calm down ... take a deep breath ... that's ancient history ... too old to be retro ]
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2013-06-15 17:09
    Wow, that's ancient. I remember playing with the BS1 a few years after it came out, but it was limited and happily moved to the BS2 when it was released.

    But outside of nostalgia I don't see much interest for a open source BS1, this isn't the same market. There are many other lower cost, more capable and open sourced options available if Parallax decides to sell it at the same price as it's current BS1 offering($29.00).
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-06-15 21:52
    I wouldn't bother going with retro parts for retro's sake. Not enough market IMO, and take advantage of all the cheap modern tech that we can. A cheaper BS1 in a simple special robot could be a great thing for student's or scout's "my first robot". Recall the S2 'Learn to solder' kit... a giveaway. Laser cut a chassis (or better yet a humanoid robot body) foam, plastic, acrylic, into which press fit some servos, a photocell, an ultrasonic sensor (sorry PING, SRF-04s are under $2), a couple LEDs and a piezo speaker and you're golden.

    Or kill two birds with one stone. Make the lightweight upright robot body out of Gordon's foam PVC, and have it shaped & printed like Ken's retro 1950's robot. Everybody wins. Time for a simple BS1 robot design contest, Matt!
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