Found several new recharging locations at my local Carl's Jr (fast food burgers). Free for patron use! Too bad ordinary gas guzzlers were parked in all those spaces, blocking use. That wouldn't happen twice in Washington!
PS: Drove a Nissan Leaf. Nice car, plenty zippy, knowledgeable sales guy claims the actual range is well over 100 miles, despite the official 73 claimed. $28K, supposedly $19K after tax savings. Versus a 54 MPG Prius C for $19K outright.
Edit: Turns out my " knowledgeable sales guy" is Nissan's #1 EV salesman very well known in EV circles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLoHZf0kTOM. And this ain't his first rodeo, he was even in "Who Killed the Electric Car":
The other day a young guy in an exhibition was trying to sell me an electric motorcycle. Made in the USA by the way. It looked really good. About the power of a 200cc bike and a range of 150Km or so. Rechargeable from a normal mains plug. Great, just what I might like for my commute to work in the summer months.
The Canadian Zenn car looks about right for short-haul zipping around town. Range is 35 miles. If it was under $10K, I think they'd sell a bunch. http://www.flixxy.com/zenn-electric-car.htm
When I was a kid we had fresh milk delivered to our door every morning. Those delivery trucks were electric. Good old lead acid batteries. Those machines were brilliant, they could get the job done without making so much noise as to wake everybody up in the mornihg.
That is the machine I want now to get me to work every day. In new money, about 5000 Euros tops.
Nothing wrong with old school lead acid battery technology, especially in the flatlands. Twenty years ago, I remember that numerous guys were converting their regular gas cars to electric. We're talking DOZENS of Diehard 12V car batteries connected with big fat wire to a giant copper contactor (the accelerator pedal) which switched them into different series/parallel arrangements. They would use 24-48 volt starter motors out of WWII bombers, mounted in place of the gas engine, running through a manual transmission that was rarely shifted. They worked, but as you can imagine, you lived with whatever speed was achieved by changing the battery voltage by twelve volts at a time.
I really like the Etuktuk, but being an American product means it is actually serving the wrong market. Outside of Florida, Hawaii, and California, the climate is working against it. In fact, I think the extremes in climate generally work against the electric car's lesser motor power (for air conditioning) and lack of heat as a by-product (for very cold).
The eTuktuk would be perfect in Southern Taiwan and much of S.E. Asia. It is hot, very sunny, and often there are tropical afternoon rains.
I really like the Etuktuk, but being an American product means it is actually serving the wrong market. Outside of Florida, Hawaii, and California, the climate is working against it. In fact, I think the extremes in climate generally work against the electric car's lesser motor power (for air conditioning) and lack of heat as a by-product (for very cold).
The eTuktuk would be perfect in Southern Taiwan and much of S.E. Asia. It is hot, very sunny, and often there are tropical afternoon rains.
It would just never sell in Norway or the U.K.
Or Canada, northern US, etc.. On the other hand an electric car with a plastic shell and polyurethane or similar insulation could be used in cold climates. The driver's body heat would keep the interior reasonably comfortable.
The entire car could be made of molded plastic except for the windows and motor/axle mounts.
I really like the Etuktuk, but being an American product means it is actually serving the wrong market. Outside of Florida, Hawaii, and California, the climate is working against it. In fact, I think the extremes in climate generally work against the electric car's lesser motor power (for air conditioning) and lack of heat as a by-product (for very cold).
The eTuktuk would be perfect in Southern Taiwan and much of S.E. Asia. It is hot, very sunny, and often there are tropical afternoon rains.
It would just never sell in Norway or the U.K.
Or Canada, northern US, etc.. On the other hand an electric car with a plastic shell and polyurethane or similar insulation could be used in cold climates. The driver's body heat would keep the interior reasonably comfortable.
The entire car could be made of molded plastic except for the windows and motor/axle mounts.
I would be much more impressed if sales of electric pickup trucks suddenly took off.
Face it, luxury cars are for people that can afford toys. While all this hype about electric cars has gone on and on, the USA has been developing a significant shift to compressed natural gas for long-haul trucks and inner city fleets --- including the fill up stations and distribution of the fuel over national pipelines.
And I really wonder why people that can afford luxury would want to wait hours for their car to charge, carry around wet and dirty electrical cords, and possibly have to forego heating or a/c just to get to the next charge site.
Meanwhile, a few cites and businesses have provided some electrical outlets for e-cars -- but nothing compared to the commitments of capital that have gone into developing a transportation infrastructure for natural gas vehicles.
Ecar and lithium battery producers are filling bankruptcy with increasing frequency.
Not ready for prime time. Maybe in another century or half-century. Remember the DeLorean.
Tesla demoed a robotic battery swap last night, right in my backyard, a half mile from my Cessna, and I had a personal invitation to the exclusive event plus a backstage pass! Too bad I had to miss it to build two flamethrowers for my buddy's wedding today. I sent a friend in my place, who had a ball.
First, car manufacturers must agree on a battery standard and on placement of the batteries.
(One brand isn't enough to keep such a scheme working)
Then you need to set up a lease-plan for batteries. That is, ALL the batteries in the system, that is, in the cars and in the station would have to be the property of the company that maintain the stations. And they have to be diligent in replacing old, worn out battery packs. While someone who drives a short distance to and from work will be happy to keep using that battery until the capacity drops below 50%, someone who drives long distance really won't.
Doesn't matter if you only pay for the actual charge on the battery, if it's 90% or less, the driver will feel cheated.
Tesla's "Get your old battery back on the return" is a bl**dy stupid idea. It increases the number of battery packs needed at each station significantly.
(Maybe it's an alternative for those who very rarely drive long distance, and therefore doesn't want to have a lease contract)
Can anyone imagine the storage and charging equipment needed on a station along an interstate?
(For short hops around home and to-from work, overnight recharges in the garage should still be adequate)
As you want the very, very expensive batteries to last for a long as possible, you need to charge them the gentlest way possible. The fastest charging probably isn't the best?
Besides Fast charging produces heat. With whole stacks of large battery packs recharging at any time, that's a lot of heat to get rid of.
Electricity is cheaper at 'off peak' hours. Most stations will prefer to recharge batteries then if possible. This can cause shortage of fully charged batteries at odd times of the day depending on how well they can predict traffic, and how much extra capacity they have.
You won't be able to pick and choose freely for fast swap. If there's more than one chain you'll have to stick with one as they'll be the actual owners of the battery packs, and they won't accept each others batteries.
Oh, and as I understand it, at least one company tried that before, and went bankrupt...
Incidentally, how much does it cost to recharge an 85KWH battery pack in the USA?
(Here in Norway, assuming 100KWH used for the recharge, from NOK50 to 150 depending on time of year and on/off peak. That is about $8 - $24 for a FULL recharge)
There's about 12000 electrics and plug-in hybrids in Norway. In april, about 550 Nissan Leaf were registered. That's actually the second best-selling car for Norway for that month, no matter which tech.
(It's expected that around 500 - 700 Tesla Model S will show up this year.)
Sales numbers indicate that a grand total of 6000 electrics and plug-in hybrids will hit the roads here this year.
I don't get the idea. It says I can swap my battery for a fully charged one but I have to swap back on the return trip.
So, I travel from A to B and when I get there I don't have the juice to get back. So I swap my battery for a full one and get back to A.
Now I have to return the battery I'm using and get my original back.
So, I have to drive from A to B again to make the swap.
I was kind of assuming A was home and B was somewhere else. Once back home I guess I have a charger.
Thing is as far as I understand there is a battery which is mine and will cost me thousands to replace at some point.
Then there is this other battery that I can borrow for a while having paid for just the charge.
So they want that second battery back instead of keeping my, possibly half warn out battery.
That means I have to run back to B again to get my battery back.
It is quite obvious that Telsa wants you to own your first battery and they will lease others, but they know that your battery is likely to be the most abused by constant yo-yo charging of daily use.
So they don't want you to just swap and drive away with one of the long-distance 'goodies'.
~~~~~~~~
That might make the banker's happy with the capital management, but it sure puts a dent in the income stream that is going to pay interest on loans.
Tesla really is going to have to create a completely separate entity that just leases all batteries to owners and provides infinite swaps. Otherwise, they are just creating another barrier to really establishing a market for all this.
~~~~~~~~
And of course it is stupid that they are willing consider hanging onto particular batteries and wait for a customer to return to pick up their 'one and only'. The return trip could be a month or two in the future.... storage may fill up to overflowing as they have shot themselves in the foot about quick turn over.
Think "propane tank swap" for your BBQ grill. You buy a propane tank when you buy a grill. When it runs out, you go to the store and swap it for a full tank for $20. If you lose your tank or want a second one on hand as a spare you can buy anther for $40. But any time you you bring in a tank, they check it for leaks and damage, fill it and send it out to somebody else. That way, all the tanks are always inspected and sufficient for at least one more cycle.
In this model, a battery could record all its own use data, charge/discharge, temp, current, idle time, and calculate remanding miles and flag itself when it about to go bad. Batteries could automatically be taken out of service BEFORE somebody has an issue. Sounds like a pretty brilliant way to go.
Exactly. The Tesla battery deal is nothing like the propane tank deal.
Firstly they want that exact battery the gave you at the swap station back again.
What you do with your own battery is your concern. When it comes to the end of it's life you will need to buy another for many thousands of dollars.
The batteries, unlike propane tanks, are not standard and only work in Tesla cars.
I think that if I ever get a rechargeable vehicle and am willing to deal with the constant 'care and feeding', it will have to be a horse.
You ride higher, refueling is likely less difficult on cross country trips, and it may keep you warmer in the winter.
~~~~~~~~~~
LNG is high pressure gas.. maybe 2000 psi or so. But they seem to have avoided tank swaps as they have been creating a distribution network for fleet vehicles and long-distance haulers.
Propane is handy for camper stoves and such, but not enough fuel for a long run or a big vehicle. Taiwan had a huge propane gas market and delivery men on motorcycles still ply the roads. But people have switched to electric hot water heaters as they have become aware of the explosion hazard. So the market is now mostly outdoor curbside restaurants.
~~~~~~~~~~~
If you go to a Telsa swap and refill station and give them your battery, use the other one and return it will a nearly full charge... will you pay less for providing them less of a refill.
Or are they going to do something fancy and rent the battery by the hour or day and prorate the charge status of the returned battery?
It gets complex... like trying to buy a cell phone service. They could offer six plans with all sorts of different 'gotchas' and make nobody happy except Tesla.
Comments
http://autos.yahoo.com/news/park-a-regular-car-in-electric-car-space--in-wa--it-ll-cost--124-001306535.html
PS: Drove a Nissan Leaf. Nice car, plenty zippy, knowledgeable sales guy claims the actual range is well over 100 miles, despite the official 73 claimed. $28K, supposedly $19K after tax savings. Versus a 54 MPG Prius C for $19K outright.
Edit: Turns out my " knowledgeable sales guy" is Nissan's #1 EV salesman very well known in EV circles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLoHZf0kTOM. And this ain't his first rodeo, he was even in "Who Killed the Electric Car":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nADup5XjkEA#t=215s
Buy one. If it doesn't work out, you can always salvage the batteries for other projects.
The other day a young guy in an exhibition was trying to sell me an electric motorcycle. Made in the USA by the way. It looked really good. About the power of a 200cc bike and a range of 150Km or so. Rechargeable from a normal mains plug. Great, just what I might like for my commute to work in the summer months.
The price: 13000 Euros !!
What planet are these people living on?
LOL, obviously not the same one we are.
Taiwan has recently set up several showrooms of electric motor scooters for about the same as gasoline ones .. $2000 USD.
So the absurdly expensive ones are likely to continue to disappear.
Right you are. There's a bigger choice of EVs in China than the US. The Coda is also sold there as the Hafei Saibao Electric Motor Car: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coda_(electric_car) and there are some other tiny electrics there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coda_Automotive
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_Electric_Vehicles
Amazingly that wikipedia link alreaddy says the Coda is out of business. Like as of today.
However I still place my bets on the electric Tuktuk:http://www.etuktuk.com/
The Canadian Zenn car looks about right for short-haul zipping around town. Range is 35 miles. If it was under $10K, I think they'd sell a bunch. http://www.flixxy.com/zenn-electric-car.htm
That is the machine I want now to get me to work every day. In new money, about 5000 Euros tops.
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showpost.php?p=35721&postcount=4
http://evconvert.com/eve/electric-car-motors
I really like the Etuktuk, but being an American product means it is actually serving the wrong market. Outside of Florida, Hawaii, and California, the climate is working against it. In fact, I think the extremes in climate generally work against the electric car's lesser motor power (for air conditioning) and lack of heat as a by-product (for very cold).
The eTuktuk would be perfect in Southern Taiwan and much of S.E. Asia. It is hot, very sunny, and often there are tropical afternoon rains.
It would just never sell in Norway or the U.K.
Or Canada, northern US, etc.. On the other hand an electric car with a plastic shell and polyurethane or similar insulation could be used in cold climates. The driver's body heat would keep the interior reasonably comfortable.
The entire car could be made of molded plastic except for the windows and motor/axle mounts.
Or Canada, northern US, etc.. On the other hand an electric car with a plastic shell and polyurethane or similar insulation could be used in cold climates. The driver's body heat would keep the interior reasonably comfortable.
The entire car could be made of molded plastic except for the windows and motor/axle mounts.
For $90K, it better win a few awards and hearts. Nonetheless, it failed to charm a certain NY Times writer, last I heard: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/automobiles/stalled-on-the-ev-highway.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
and Chebby cuts $5K off their Volt: http://www.cnbc.com/id/100802841
Face it, luxury cars are for people that can afford toys. While all this hype about electric cars has gone on and on, the USA has been developing a significant shift to compressed natural gas for long-haul trucks and inner city fleets --- including the fill up stations and distribution of the fuel over national pipelines.
And I really wonder why people that can afford luxury would want to wait hours for their car to charge, carry around wet and dirty electrical cords, and possibly have to forego heating or a/c just to get to the next charge site.
Meanwhile, a few cites and businesses have provided some electrical outlets for e-cars -- but nothing compared to the commitments of capital that have gone into developing a transportation infrastructure for natural gas vehicles.
Ecar and lithium battery producers are filling bankruptcy with increasing frequency.
Not ready for prime time. Maybe in another century or half-century. Remember the DeLorean.
NOT!
http://news.yahoo.com/doldrums-u-electric-car-sales-could-linger-indefinitely-212752692.html
http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/tesla-launches-battery-swapping-two-minute-recharging-115343291.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugpSjcYfiuA
It seem that they want you to retrieve your battery and return the loaner. Where is the sense in that?
Yup.
First, car manufacturers must agree on a battery standard and on placement of the batteries.
(One brand isn't enough to keep such a scheme working)
Then you need to set up a lease-plan for batteries. That is, ALL the batteries in the system, that is, in the cars and in the station would have to be the property of the company that maintain the stations. And they have to be diligent in replacing old, worn out battery packs. While someone who drives a short distance to and from work will be happy to keep using that battery until the capacity drops below 50%, someone who drives long distance really won't.
Doesn't matter if you only pay for the actual charge on the battery, if it's 90% or less, the driver will feel cheated.
Tesla's "Get your old battery back on the return" is a bl**dy stupid idea. It increases the number of battery packs needed at each station significantly.
(Maybe it's an alternative for those who very rarely drive long distance, and therefore doesn't want to have a lease contract)
Can anyone imagine the storage and charging equipment needed on a station along an interstate?
(For short hops around home and to-from work, overnight recharges in the garage should still be adequate)
As you want the very, very expensive batteries to last for a long as possible, you need to charge them the gentlest way possible. The fastest charging probably isn't the best?
Besides Fast charging produces heat. With whole stacks of large battery packs recharging at any time, that's a lot of heat to get rid of.
Electricity is cheaper at 'off peak' hours. Most stations will prefer to recharge batteries then if possible. This can cause shortage of fully charged batteries at odd times of the day depending on how well they can predict traffic, and how much extra capacity they have.
You won't be able to pick and choose freely for fast swap. If there's more than one chain you'll have to stick with one as they'll be the actual owners of the battery packs, and they won't accept each others batteries.
Oh, and as I understand it, at least one company tried that before, and went bankrupt...
Incidentally, how much does it cost to recharge an 85KWH battery pack in the USA?
(Here in Norway, assuming 100KWH used for the recharge, from NOK50 to 150 depending on time of year and on/off peak. That is about $8 - $24 for a FULL recharge)
There's about 12000 electrics and plug-in hybrids in Norway. In april, about 550 Nissan Leaf were registered. That's actually the second best-selling car for Norway for that month, no matter which tech.
(It's expected that around 500 - 700 Tesla Model S will show up this year.)
Sales numbers indicate that a grand total of 6000 electrics and plug-in hybrids will hit the roads here this year.
So, I travel from A to B and when I get there I don't have the juice to get back. So I swap my battery for a full one and get back to A.
Now I have to return the battery I'm using and get my original back.
So, I have to drive from A to B again to make the swap.
Am I missing a point here?
Thing is as far as I understand there is a battery which is mine and will cost me thousands to replace at some point.
Then there is this other battery that I can borrow for a while having paid for just the charge.
So they want that second battery back instead of keeping my, possibly half warn out battery.
That means I have to run back to B again to get my battery back.
So they don't want you to just swap and drive away with one of the long-distance 'goodies'.
~~~~~~~~
That might make the banker's happy with the capital management, but it sure puts a dent in the income stream that is going to pay interest on loans.
Tesla really is going to have to create a completely separate entity that just leases all batteries to owners and provides infinite swaps. Otherwise, they are just creating another barrier to really establishing a market for all this.
~~~~~~~~
And of course it is stupid that they are willing consider hanging onto particular batteries and wait for a customer to return to pick up their 'one and only'. The return trip could be a month or two in the future.... storage may fill up to overflowing as they have shot themselves in the foot about quick turn over.
In this model, a battery could record all its own use data, charge/discharge, temp, current, idle time, and calculate remanding miles and flag itself when it about to go bad. Batteries could automatically be taken out of service BEFORE somebody has an issue. Sounds like a pretty brilliant way to go.
Firstly they want that exact battery the gave you at the swap station back again.
What you do with your own battery is your concern. When it comes to the end of it's life you will need to buy another for many thousands of dollars.
The batteries, unlike propane tanks, are not standard and only work in Tesla cars.
You ride higher, refueling is likely less difficult on cross country trips, and it may keep you warmer in the winter.
~~~~~~~~~~
LNG is high pressure gas.. maybe 2000 psi or so. But they seem to have avoided tank swaps as they have been creating a distribution network for fleet vehicles and long-distance haulers.
Propane is handy for camper stoves and such, but not enough fuel for a long run or a big vehicle. Taiwan had a huge propane gas market and delivery men on motorcycles still ply the roads. But people have switched to electric hot water heaters as they have become aware of the explosion hazard. So the market is now mostly outdoor curbside restaurants.
~~~~~~~~~~~
If you go to a Telsa swap and refill station and give them your battery, use the other one and return it will a nearly full charge... will you pay less for providing them less of a refill.
Or are they going to do something fancy and rent the battery by the hour or day and prorate the charge status of the returned battery?
It gets complex... like trying to buy a cell phone service. They could offer six plans with all sorts of different 'gotchas' and make nobody happy except Tesla.