I went through the Linux thing back in the late 90's when ppl used 38k modems for the internet, and found out the hard way that you get to a point where your on your own, with hardly any support or old books, information to fall back on; leaving you in a void of software... Then I realized that Travis Linux didn't intend Linux as a full blown OS, he just wanted a replacement for the DOS OS or something he can work with, because the floppy disks were always getting corrupt or mechanically failing, loosing all your data: ( is before CD's, DVD's, or the Cloud.. for those who new to the game).... I agree with your #4 point, ppl tend to hack; some for sport, or mischief, or because they can't loose in their favorite online video game... Let see what happens, I think this way of programming can have some drawbacks; easily hackable systems, lazy programmers that can't problem solve.... Yet it can also be beneficial were the community respects a code of honor and won't hack critical systems like the space shuttle.... I just know someone wants to get paid for their hard work in this world....
If you were a programmer or a developer, none of this would be an issue. It seems like you are an apple fanboi, which is fine but I am sorry apple isnt the bees knees to Operating Systems. When was the last time you wrote your own device driver for apple ??
Not to mention the fact that I can develop anything I want on Linux for free and how I want. I am not Pigoned into some Visual Basic or Visual C++ Smile, and spending upwards of $5k in compiler licensing fees just to get off the ground.. ;x
Hi, Zetsu...
most of the chat I was talking was just for entertainment, knowing April 1st was around the corner
I don't exactly know what to say, it IS a major milestone that Nasa has turned to Linux for some of their development, but it does come with some inherited flaws because nothing is perfect....
One of the them I see with Linux is Accountibility; it's a subject that I almost never hear about in Linux.... and its something that can't be ignored. Who is going to be blamed when things go wrong in code and/or in hardware; people/the general public, doesn't care for the cause of why a machine or system breaks, all they see as of this writing is a Windows logo/blue screen being displayed; nothing is perfect, that's why we get warranties, garanties, contracts, lawyers, and etc... As people, corporations, and governments start using Linux machines and code, who is going to be held responsible/accountable.... is Linux going to hide behind the Windows umbrella? I think Linux, Apple, and other technologies are great in their own right, and their all have short comings....
thanks for the chat, and dark star was Awesome!!! I love how the bomb blew itself in the end... Hilarious...
The Darkstar OS was windows 25.25..service pack 777 higher reliability ...
As to the liability, to many developers across the world to go after I think, but the integrator of the failed system my be within reach as he could have been negligent in determining suitability to the use and intended purpose. For example, lets say the latest GE CT software fails and a mis-diagnosis is made. Who to go after? The underlying OS is a variant of RHEL (I think anyway) but with their own mods and whole applications suites for everything from DICOM to System control and monitoring. Who chose the base flavor? Did their mods cause a problem? So GE gets hammered here. What if they chose Windows, like two of the other major OEMs I am familiar with? Probably just as bad off as GE. Read the Micro$oft license agreement. Looks pretty loaded with hold harmless and other such clauses written into the agreement to totally insulate Windows/M$ from as much potential liability as possible. So the accountable / responsible argument faults out very quickly indeed.
BTW, I think when Mike said "Travis Linux" he meant "Linus Torvalds".
Or there really is a great pretender out there that calls himself Travis Linux. I actually once met Spike Africa, Emperor of the Pacific Ocean, and another time I met the King of the Hobos. People like this do exist. Have you ever heard of the modern Czeck poet, Zenda Paycheck? Or the penultimate personal assistant, Roger Careless?
Perhaps a Microkernel based operating system similar to QNX would be a better alternative to the monolithic systems currently in use. I used QNX in the CPM era (prior to MPM) to run four terminal windows (four CPM programs) on a 2MHz Z80 in the mid to late 70's. Booting was much faster than windows and task switching appeared to be instantaneous to human reaction times.
In many ways Propeller Objects look like the perfect building blocks for a microkernel OS.; I can envision a system where we could simply list the objects in the OBJ section to create a custom kernel for whatever hardware is connected to the Propeller.
Hi, Zetsu...
most of the chat I was talking was just for entertainment, knowing April 1st was around the corner
I don't exactly know what to say, it IS a major milestone that Nasa has turned to Linux for some of their development, but it does come with some inherited flaws because nothing is perfect....
One of the them I see with Linux is Accountibility; it's a subject that I almost never hear about in Linux.... and its something that can't be ignored. Who is going to be blamed when things go wrong in code and/or in hardware; people/the general public, doesn't care for the cause of why a machine or system breaks, all they see as of this writing is a Windows logo/blue screen being displayed; nothing is perfect, that's why we get warranties, garanties, contracts, lawyers, and etc... As people, corporations, and governments start using Linux machines and code, who is going to be held responsible/accountable.... is Linux going to hide behind the Windows umbrella? I think Linux, Apple, and other technologies are great in their own right, and their all have short comings....
thanks for the chat, and dark star was Awesome!!! I love how the bomb blew itself in the end... Hilarious...
Um, you know you can buy the enterprise versions of linux such as SLES and get full support, and software they fully test ? I feel you are a little uninformed in how the Linux world works now days.
@Heater
Of course, there are some things about MS that are very appealing.
If you are called in for an income tax audit and have no records to show, you can easily claim your Windows system got a virus and all was lost. Now that is what I call a really excellent accountability feature!
Um, you know you can buy the versions of linux such as SLES and get full support, and software they fully test ? I feel you are a little uninformed in how the Linux world works now days.
Very true .. does not Google Run it . I mean a fortune 500 company is not looseing sleep over it ..
NASA has a ton oc people whom are more then smart enough to work with Linux
I have used in the past Red Hat enterprise prior to me doing to Debian.... Twas Great to have some one to call.. Only needed to call once ..... I un insltalled my GUI ( Gnome ) and all I had was a shell. ... These days I can fix it on my own ,..
Ha! I just realized Linus himself lives Near by in portland ...
Sooo, um.... What is the point of buying Linux, when you can get one for free?
What's the point of the Creative Commons license, Apache, and other similar ones?
what's the point of buying antivirus, and whatnot software? What's the point of having a pin # on your bank account?
whoa... You guys just saved everyone legal fees, and whatnot.
Ohhhhhh..... Back to rewarding someone for their services / talent / support / experience.... thing, is it because they're accountable for their actions and/or service?
unlike MS and apple YOU have the choice to Pay or not .......... same product ....... but YOU choose . I can install my RHEL disk on a computer right now and its gonna run just fine . I just have no RHEL ID any more so I ME I the end user goog up .... Iam on my own ..... but as soon as I activate it I can get support .......
with OSX and MS you get a month to have growing pains and then you are on your own ...sans paying for more ... I have had MANY tech people give me bad advice .
( cough Linksys )... could I go after the nameless tech on the other end of the phone line .... NO ..... Heater is right . You cant just go after a company for bad tech support .
Frankly ..... every one and there mom has some Linux or POSIX based device .... I feel the OS and system is more then stable for work laptops in space...
Ya DO understand that these are not for Life support ....
The company I work for does use SLES for all its current server needs. we pay a licensing fee every year, and with it we get tech support, and a good tested software suite to pick from for administration type deals ( ldap , apache2 , samba, etc.. etc..). From there we use Genero for our Financial needs ( we have 4 in house programmers that do nothing all day ( myself included) except make financial software. I also have the ease of entergrating other things like Our time clock system (break alarms, emply punches...) under our umbrella. Linux is very very nice in our situation, where with windows I would be paying out the rear in Licensing fees to get a Compiler to do things outside of our Financial languages 'box'. Apple is totally out of the picture because I am not sure How easy it is to write anything that runs on that platform, and the fact that apple isn't really tailored to the business/work world.
Ohhhhhh..... Back to rewarding someone for their services / talent / support / experience.... thing, is it because they're accountable for their actions and/or service?
I don't understand where you get the idea that people in the Linux/FreeSoftware/OpenSource world don't get paid. Who ever said that?
Hello my name is Zetsu, I develop in a Linux environment and I get paid
I do too, I get paid and I get to travel all over the world. As do all the developers at work. And just to be a bit more relevant to the thread subject, space agencies everywhere are among the customers.
Perhaps a Microkernel based operating system similar to QNX would be a better alternative to the monolithic systems currently in use. I used QNX in the CPM era (prior to MPM) to run four terminal windows (four CPM programs) on a 2MHz Z80 in the mid to late 70's. Booting was much faster than windows and task switching appeared to be instantaneous to human reaction times.
+1 just for mentioning QNX. I played with QNX years ago (though I don't think that far back).
Break over. We now return to the all-too-typical Linux vs (or takes over) the world debate/discussion/diatribe.
Ok.
.. I'm, done.... It's been fun debating about the OS thing, I'm sure you guys have plenty of more things to say with sound background..... I just tired.... need to get some stuff done... I'll ask for Linux help sometime..... I hope you guys had fun with these never ending debate things.... Thanks again for your thoughts about this subject
Perhaps better that we rattle our OSs at each other than swords. Let's all hope that a certain very juvenile and UN-cool asian dictator does not use linux in his weapons systems or development!
So you think the North Koreans made their own printing presses from scratch to counterfeit the US currency. Or that they didn't import their mobile missile launchers from China which copied a Western design.
Wake up and smell the skunk cabbage. Why build from scratch when you can just work around an embargo and illegally import superior technology that will get you there faster paid for with fake $100 notes.
I guess you think that the North Koreans independently invented the A-bomb. I suspect that is what the 'Great Leader' is telling the masses. Meanwhile, the "Great Leader' is sending out for pizza and Nike basketball shoes.
Forgive me if I seemed a bit harsh, but the history of the Korean War is that it started as a proxy war that was provided with weapons from North Korean troops returning from China where they fought the Japanese along with Communist China. And then, Russia covertly provided jets and Russian pilots.
I'd love to see world peace, but Korea remains a very mixed message in the political will of several major global players. Technically Russia and Japan are also still at war as the Russians in the last days of WWII suddenly decided to take several of Japan's northern islands even though Stalin ignored the east of Russia for nearly the entire war.
Regional tensions are very complex, have a lot of history that the average person hasn't been exposed to. And, more than a hundred years ago, the Prussians that were helping the Japanese modernize emphatically told the emperor of Japan that the Korean peninsula was a knife at the throat of Japan.
Of course, Japan's expansion into China to create Manchukuo did not help settle things down.
In sum, South Korea remains a stabilizing buffer zone between a lot of nations that have long-term unresolved issues.
The topic herein is supposed to be the International Space Station and its adoption of Linux. I am happy to see an OS that is NOT dominated by the USA in an international cooperative project. This isn't a NASA only project. And throughout the world, many universities have enjoyed bout Unix and Linux that were intentionally created for people to share info and learn more through sharing.
Comments
If you were a programmer or a developer, none of this would be an issue. It seems like you are an apple fanboi, which is fine but I am sorry apple isnt the bees knees to Operating Systems. When was the last time you wrote your own device driver for apple ??
Not to mention the fact that I can develop anything I want on Linux for free and how I want. I am not Pigoned into some Visual Basic or Visual C++ Smile, and spending upwards of $5k in compiler licensing fees just to get off the ground.. ;x
most of the chat I was talking was just for entertainment, knowing April 1st was around the corner
I don't exactly know what to say, it IS a major milestone that Nasa has turned to Linux for some of their development, but it does come with some inherited flaws because nothing is perfect....
One of the them I see with Linux is Accountibility; it's a subject that I almost never hear about in Linux.... and its something that can't be ignored. Who is going to be blamed when things go wrong in code and/or in hardware; people/the general public, doesn't care for the cause of why a machine or system breaks, all they see as of this writing is a Windows logo/blue screen being displayed; nothing is perfect, that's why we get warranties, garanties, contracts, lawyers, and etc... As people, corporations, and governments start using Linux machines and code, who is going to be held responsible/accountable.... is Linux going to hide behind the Windows umbrella? I think Linux, Apple, and other technologies are great in their own right, and their all have short comings....
thanks for the chat, and dark star was Awesome!!! I love how the bomb blew itself in the end... Hilarious...
The Darkstar OS was windows 25.25..service pack 777 higher reliability ...
As to the liability, to many developers across the world to go after I think, but the integrator of the failed system my be within reach as he could have been negligent in determining suitability to the use and intended purpose. For example, lets say the latest GE CT software fails and a mis-diagnosis is made. Who to go after? The underlying OS is a variant of RHEL (I think anyway) but with their own mods and whole applications suites for everything from DICOM to System control and monitoring. Who chose the base flavor? Did their mods cause a problem? So GE gets hammered here. What if they chose Windows, like two of the other major OEMs I am familiar with? Probably just as bad off as GE. Read the Micro$oft license agreement. Looks pretty loaded with hold harmless and other such clauses written into the agreement to totally insulate Windows/M$ from as much potential liability as possible. So the accountable / responsible argument faults out very quickly indeed.
Frank
Or there really is a great pretender out there that calls himself Travis Linux. I actually once met Spike Africa, Emperor of the Pacific Ocean, and another time I met the King of the Hobos. People like this do exist. Have you ever heard of the modern Czeck poet, Zenda Paycheck? Or the penultimate personal assistant, Roger Careless?
Bomb 20 had Happy Feet Linux, it was just too awesome....
In many ways Propeller Objects look like the perfect building blocks for a microkernel OS.; I can envision a system where we could simply list the objects in the OBJ section to create a custom kernel for whatever hardware is connected to the Propeller.
Um, you know you can buy the enterprise versions of linux such as SLES and get full support, and software they fully test ? I feel you are a little uninformed in how the Linux world works now days.
I could as well say "One of the them I see with Windows is accountability".
Really since when was MS held responsible for the working of their products? Or Apple?
I'm sure you will find most licenses include terms that amount to "We don't take responsibility for anything our software may or may not do".
If you want such accountability you are going have to pay dearly for it.
Is there even any provider of an OS as sophisticated as those of MS, Apple, Linux, BSD that would dare to offer such guarantees?
Of course, there are some things about MS that are very appealing.
If you are called in for an income tax audit and have no records to show, you can easily claim your Windows system got a virus and all was lost. Now that is what I call a really excellent accountability feature!
Very true .. does not Google Run it . I mean a fortune 500 company is not looseing sleep over it ..
NASA has a ton oc people whom are more then smart enough to work with Linux
I have used in the past Red Hat enterprise prior to me doing to Debian.... Twas Great to have some one to call.. Only needed to call once ..... I un insltalled my GUI ( Gnome ) and all I had was a shell. ... These days I can fix it on my own ,..
Ha! I just realized Linus himself lives Near by in portland ...
What's the point of the Creative Commons license, Apache, and other similar ones?
what's the point of buying antivirus, and whatnot software? What's the point of having a pin # on your bank account?
whoa... You guys just saved everyone legal fees, and whatnot.
24H tech support !
with OSX and MS you get a month to have growing pains and then you are on your own ...sans paying for more ... I have had MANY tech people give me bad advice .
( cough Linksys )... could I go after the nameless tech on the other end of the phone line .... NO ..... Heater is right . You cant just go after a company for bad tech support .
Frankly ..... every one and there mom has some Linux or POSIX based device .... I feel the OS and system is more then stable for work laptops in space...
Ya DO understand that these are not for Life support ....
I don't understand where you get the idea that people in the Linux/FreeSoftware/OpenSource world don't get paid. Who ever said that?
Hello my name is Zetsu, I develop in a Linux environment and I get paid. /shrug
-Tor
Break over. We now return to the all-too-typical Linux vs (or takes over) the world debate/discussion/diatribe.
.. I'm, done.... It's been fun debating about the OS thing, I'm sure you guys have plenty of more things to say with sound background..... I just tired.... need to get some stuff done... I'll ask for Linux help sometime..... I hope you guys had fun with these never ending debate things.... Thanks again for your thoughts about this subject
Wake up and smell the skunk cabbage. Why build from scratch when you can just work around an embargo and illegally import superior technology that will get you there faster paid for with fake $100 notes.
I guess you think that the North Koreans independently invented the A-bomb. I suspect that is what the 'Great Leader' is telling the masses. Meanwhile, the "Great Leader' is sending out for pizza and Nike basketball shoes.
I'd love to see world peace, but Korea remains a very mixed message in the political will of several major global players. Technically Russia and Japan are also still at war as the Russians in the last days of WWII suddenly decided to take several of Japan's northern islands even though Stalin ignored the east of Russia for nearly the entire war.
Regional tensions are very complex, have a lot of history that the average person hasn't been exposed to. And, more than a hundred years ago, the Prussians that were helping the Japanese modernize emphatically told the emperor of Japan that the Korean peninsula was a knife at the throat of Japan.
Of course, Japan's expansion into China to create Manchukuo did not help settle things down.
In sum, South Korea remains a stabilizing buffer zone between a lot of nations that have long-term unresolved issues.
The topic herein is supposed to be the International Space Station and its adoption of Linux. I am happy to see an OS that is NOT dominated by the USA in an international cooperative project. This isn't a NASA only project. And throughout the world, many universities have enjoyed bout Unix and Linux that were intentionally created for people to share info and learn more through sharing.
How did MS products ever get into something as important as a space station?
Now that this is a multi-national project it starts to become clear what a dumb idea it is.