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Smartphone Thermal camera add on — Parallax Forums

Smartphone Thermal camera add on

prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
edited 2014-12-19 20:38 in General Discussion
http://igg.me/p/mu-thermal-camera-the-greatest-tool-to-eliminate-energy-waste/x/2639812

As with previous offerings, this uses a smart phone or tablet for users interface, etc.

This one is 19,200 pixels, 160x120 stills or video 30fps
7-14 um: -66 to 140 C

The site says they have ventures capital, and intend sale in big box stores for $300

Contributing on indiegogo gets it eariler for half that.
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Comments

  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-03-10 15:26
    This is really tempting, were I not so skeptical.

    There is zero evidence that the product (even a prototype) actually exists. Everything they show could have come from another camera. Just a lot of talk and some renderings is all there is.

    They claim to be able to deliver by May, but say they can't show you anything due to NDAs.

    They claim to deliver by May but they need the funding to finalize the design, work out parts contracts, assembly contracts and packaging / distribution??? This doesn't sound realistic at all.

    Also, check out their math for the perks and try to figure out what they think the MSRP should be.
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2013-03-10 17:43
    Full discloser here . My FPGA Proff works for FLIR , My college shares a parking lot with them .


    I doubt wee will see any IR cams in the Sub $1000 range .
    The Optics area FAR to exotic to make on a mass scale.
    Germanium is used on some of the FLIR sets. ZeSe is also used .. Again not soda lime glass.

    They have one model that is in the 3.6 Grand range . .



    Peter....
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-03-10 18:50
    I doubt wee will see any IR cams in the Sub $1000 range .

    Here's one for under $1K

    http://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCT416S1
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2013-03-10 19:04
    Mother of Pearl ! ............ umm...... I stand corrected ....... 160X160 is kinda low for what can be made ... I guess that is why its not too much ...

    the FLIR ones I have used here at the college are VGA ,,,,, Still 160X160 is not to bad for a grand . Funny the single bolometer ones were 900+ 10 Years ago .
    , this is Good as this way it will force the incumbent FLIR to make some more lower end stuff.



    DO you think anyone can make one that will sell for 300 USD.?

    I think what is happening is that with a smaller sensor you can use a smaller lens and use less optics material ,......

    At some point we will have small cheap cams with horrid "ISO" response

    Peter
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-03-11 07:37
    Back in the late 1990s, Sony released a consumer video camera with IR mode. It quickly became very popular as it seemed that one could see through clothing.

    http://www.omg-facts.com/Sex/In-1998-Sony-Accidently-Sold-700-000-Cam/465

    Sony claimed it was never intended for that purpose... but we all know how some Japanese enjoy such things.

    I just bought a Canon Powershot SX150is. No IR, but a boatload of features and it was marked down about 55% from $8990NT to $3990NT. It may take me a lifetime to finish the 200 page manual though. I don't think I want to see through clothing.

    http://www.kaya-optics.com/products/experiments.shtml
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2013-03-11 09:28
    Ya spends yer money, ya takes yer chance.

    So far, the 3D printer works ($500 instead of $20K), the spectrometer phone attachement works ($10 instead of $50k). The raspberry Pi for $35 works. The 3watt LEDs for $2 work. The cheap steppers and the $5 bluetooth modules work. The free university classes on line work. Even linux works these days. I know its discouraging, but try to have an open mind. :)

    Of course its impossible, and there's only a remote chance of the thermal camera working. But whats the point of being rich if you can't have a little fun once in a while? We'll see in May if they stiff us or not. Even if they do, it will be interesting to see what happens with Indegogo.
  • Bobb FwedBobb Fwed Posts: 1,119
    edited 2013-03-11 10:01
    Back in the late 1990s, Sony released a consumer video camera with IR mode. It quickly became very popular as it seemed that one could see through clothing.
    My family owned one of these cameras. Under very specific conditions, i.e. very light clothing and side lighting, you could kind of see the outline of undergarments, it wasn't the "x-ray vision camera" the media made it out to be. It was also extremely handy for taking video at night with it's built in IR flashlight, we put that camera to great use for years.

    NIR (near infrared -- what the Sony camera had) is easy to come by, as all camera sensors are sensitive to NIR, they add filters to prevent too much on an image, since it is wavelengths our eyes cannot see. It is even a fairly popular modification to do to SLRs: remove the filter that prevents NIR, and add an external IR filter to the lens. You end up with photos like these.
    But MWIR and LWIR (medium and long wave IR -- i.e. thermal IR) are a completely different beast, you need special lenses and such to view these wave lengths since the glass that normally gets used does not allow those wave lengths to pass through.
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2013-03-11 10:36
    It not only Sony camera that can do the magic, Panasonic is capable, too :) But they all do near infrared, which is absolutely non-comparable with thermal imaging.

    Regarding the FLIR, last year I saw a quotation from FLIR, the VGA sensor with basic circuitry was priced around $1200, but only 7.5fps. The 30fps one costed roughly 4000$ and also required specific licenses, since belonged to military equipment class. The numbers may not be accurate, since I just had a glimpse on email.
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2013-03-11 10:40
    And regarding the near infrared sensitivity, not all sensors, even with IR filter removed, are same sensitivity. For example, sony mades specific sensors with near IR sensitivity greatly boosted: http://www.sony.net/electronics/ - but you will need to find link to listing itself - it does not allows direct linking to PDF.

    The quick explanation why trick with clothes works is the fact, that water is transparent to near infrared, so, when the clothes are humid enough, they became transparent. I also have such camera and did various experiments. So, if clothes were fully dry, even 500W lightbulb shining directly on them does not make them look trasparent, but as I apply slight amount of hot steam, it became instantly transparent.
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2013-03-21 16:12
    Looks like they still need orders for 300 units to make the goal.

    The site says the venture capital people will back them regardless, and we will get our cameras one way of the other.
  • Duane C. JohnsonDuane C. Johnson Posts: 955
    edited 2013-03-21 16:32
    Hi Professor;

    It appear that they are planning a "PC version", in addition to the Smartphone.

    Have you gleaned the $300 could be for the PC one or not?

    Duane J
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-03-21 17:39
    I sell and install CCTV equipment. One of my suppliers carries a line of Thermal Imaging cameras. They start at about $60K and go over $100K!!!!!!!!!

    Just sayin.
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2013-03-26 15:55
    It appear that they are planning a "PC version", in addition to the Smartphone.

    Have you gleaned the $300 could be for the PC one or not?

    Duane J

    I think the imager is the same smart phone size block for either, and the same unit would be marketed for phone or PC. Just a guess.

    @NWCCTV - yes, if this thing actually happens, and it works, it could be a game changer. We might have to be flexible in our definition of "works" or creative in how we try to use it. But I think its cool enough to risk.

    4 days and $14k to go!
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-03-27 20:11
    I am considering donating myself butttttttttt, has there been any updates on a release date? They have almost met their goal. What kind of guarantee is there that this is for real? And yes, prof_braino, this would definately be a game changer and I am sure would force the more expensive versions to come down somewhat. Heck, my profit margin of 15% for selling just one of the high end ones would be a nice paycheck!!!! I have sold a couple Video Surveillance Trailer systems to Contractors in the past. I am sure they would LOVE this.
    But whats the point of being rich if you can't have a little fun once in a while?
    If you really want to have some fun, cut me a check for $250K so I can fund my next Business venture!!
    Back in the late 1990s, Sony released a consumer video camera with IR mode. It quickly became very popular as it seemed that one could see through clothing.
    I remeber that. People that did not have them were scampering trying to find one. Any how, I think a lot has to do with lighting, etc. Several years ago I had a standard Hi 8 camcorder. I videotaped my wife while she was in the bathroom looking in the mirror. (She was fully clothed.) At the time I was using a Snappy to transfer the video to my PC. I had to do a double take and rewind because there was abot a .5 second shot where her breasts were clearly visible. I thought it was mighty strange and now I wish I had saved it just because. She made me delete it when she seen it. Not sure if it was from the light reflecting off the mirror or what but it really surprised me when it happened.
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2013-03-28 00:41
    NWCCTV wrote: »
    ... What kind of guarantee is there that this is for real?

    No guarantees in this life. Back it if you feel something like this needs to exist, to the extent you might lose $150. Either it works and we are rockstars for 15 minutes for supporting it, or it doesn't.

    There is no corellation, but all the kickstater projects I backed have delivered, except the parallela 16 core device, which is preparing to ship.

    3 days and $2500 to go! These are going to be so cool if they work!
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2013-03-28 12:42
    I bite, as I have 60days to dispute the credit card bill we will see.

    Contribution Amount: $150 Payment Method: Credit Card
    Your Perk: Not So Early Adopters Special
    Estimated Delivery: May2013
  • SRLMSRLM Posts: 5,045
    edited 2013-03-28 13:08
    tonyp12 wrote: »
    I bite, as I have 60days to dispute the credit card bill we will see.

    That's called a "chargeback", and can negatively affect you and the merchant: http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/03/02/doing-a-credit-card-chargeback-even-once-can-lead-to-blacklist/
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2013-03-28 13:19
    >That's called a "chargeback"
    I don't plan to use if I change my mind of buying,
    if it's turns out that a lot of people complain that they don't answer emails or no longer post updates that show an actual product etc. (e.g fraud)
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-03-28 20:09
    Well, Just let us all know how it works out. If I could afford to lose it I would do it, but times are still a little tough.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-03-28 21:35
    Unfortunately, still no evidence that this product exists in any form.

    I hope it is legit but there is no way they are getting my money by saying they are going to deliver a patent pending (no evidence of that either) device in May when they don't know where it is going to be assembled, haven't finalized their suppliers, refuse to provide their potential customers with a shred of evidence that they have created something and then ignore all questions related to their production schedule.

    It doesn't help that he is COO of a cgi production company... or maybe it does?
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2013-05-17 08:39
    Its May, it looks like the schedule is going to slip. This is no surprise, this happens on most new product development. I believe I've only worked on one new product development project that met its original schedule, that project involved adding ONE new protocol to an existing interface device.

    They are still doing all the development in house. The schedule is still "it will be done when it's done". The only form that exists is in the requirements, and prototypes they are building on their desks and workbenches.

    So everything is pretty much as expected. Also as expected, there is a certain very vocal population demanding a delivery date for the final product, as if this was a stack paper plates off the shelf at Wlamart, rather than a completely new creation.

    The project is still a risk, and could go either way. While there is no guarantee the device will be delivered and meet every person's expectation, there is also a good chance that some manner of thermal camera module will be created. :)
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2013-05-17 09:16
    I asked and got a refund check, this company have never designed a pcb board in their life.
    And they think that can just through modules together.
    I though they has insider source to some new and cheaper IR sensor matrix to make a new revolutionary low priced camera.
    But that don't seem to be the case.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-05-17 10:30
    Dave at EEVblog has something to say about this;
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2013-05-17 11:13
    I'd like to see how he's filming himself. It's obviously something he's controlling with his right arm. But I doubt that it's a wheeled device, since it doesn't bounce before he steps off a curb. OTOH, he seems too relaxed to be carrying some sort of steadycam contraption.

    -Phil
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-05-17 11:29
    I'd like to see how he's filming himself. It's obviously something he's controlling with his right arm.

    He's using a monopod.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2013-05-17 14:36
    Ah, so.

    db6079.jpg

    -Phil
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2013-05-18 11:08
    W9GFO wrote: »
    Dave at EEVblog has something to say about this;

    Boy, you really got me going this morning. :)

    Mu Camera had a mock up, and use the new paradigm, "Only build the thermal imager part, and use an android device for everything else to save cost", and do everything beyond the actual imager in software on the android. Makes sense, that alone is enough to merit backing. $150 is money well spent for this alone. This paradigm can eventually work, question is, now?

    Dave at EEVblog is only concerned about "getting something out of it" as he says in the first minutes of the video. HE is the one you should watch out for. He says, "lying about technical details". What technical details did they lie about?

    His complaint is about new development projects in general, "they don't deliver on time". Folks with any experience know we cannot make a reasonable guess of when something will be ready unless we have a prior experience WITH THE SAME THING. The more different, the less accurate any prediction can be. New development, by definition, is something we have no prior experience, and any prediction about complete date is wrong from the get go. Any individual or corporation that expects prediction of completion date based on no data can expect to be disappointed. This is the case at most places I've worked. Management can get upset and stamp their little feet, but its still going to take as long as it takes. There's no need to bad mouth folks for simply trying. Aside from that, he has no specific complaint, no?

    So far, every project I have backed has delivered at least something. [EDIT- And all have been past the original guestimated delivery date]. If this is the first that does not deliver anything, great, that's the risk. If this delivers ANYTHING that can operate as a thermal image in any fashion, I will have one more thermal imager than I have now.
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2013-05-18 15:03
    >Only build the thermal imager part, and use an android device for everything else to save cost

    They just last week decided what thermal imager they are using (but that maybe is not even true)
    So there was never a prototype with the pictures shown
    As the proposed camera is pretty much stand alone the only thing they are saving is the $30 for a lcd screen.
    Don't wait to long to ask for a refund as the last half will probably will be SOL.
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2013-06-20 08:39
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbolometer is the imaging gizmo they are using. I don't follow the logic on "there was never a prototype", anything could be a prototype, and the final unit can be very different. They selected a particular part from the manufacturer’s various offerings, this means they attempted to refine the selection based on new learning, this is a good thing particularly in the early stages.

    Nor do I understand how $30 as the only savings was calculated. In addition to providing an LCD, my android phone also does processing, USB, blue tooth, internet, storage, touch screen buttons, zooming, and a visible light camera. Building all that from scratch with custom hardware and custom software would certainly be more than $30.

    Aside from the camera itself, the most interesting part of this project is the way people say "I can't do this, so it must be a lie!"

    Raspberry Pi, OLPC met with similar scepticism. Just sayin'.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2013-06-20 08:50
    There are other similar projects in process (see here) I suspect because the sensors have become available at a reasonable cost. I subscribed to this project. It looks like there's a working prototype. The app is already available. It takes time to make a couple of hundred units or even 50. Sometimes vendors don't have what they promised or don't have it on your schedule. You have to be patient. Things slip.
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