WBA that varies by state; in Louisiana you absolutely cannot call yourself an engineer or the service you perform engineering if you do not have one of the professional certifications accepted by the state. This is enforced to "avoid confusion."
This caused Microsoft some major trouble because in those states, people who have MCSE's cannot spell out what the E stands for on their business cards or advertisements, because a MCSE is not one of the engineering disciplines recognized by the state.
Also, in my experience Loopy's advice is a bit conservative; in decades of working in industrial facilities I've found that any line cord is usually taken as a barrier between the licensed and no-license work, even when the line cord is hooking up a big panel with dozens of switches, indicators, and whatnot. Only a few facilities (generally large chemical plants) actually make you get an electrician to touch anything high voltage even if it's powered from an outlet. On the other hand food plants often have unlicensed maintenance guys and contractors working directly with 480V three-phase panels.
This still barely even effects me, we have electricians on our payroll if they want to plug the device in so be it, whatever... If they still want to raise a stick I can just have my dads company do it and have them bill us for it...
I should throw in there we are one of the if not the largest manufacturing plant for pipe fittings. I see our stuff on firetrucks all over america, and in almost every oil or natural gas application /shrug.
Was it Louisiana that had that crazy issue where railroad engineers couldn't call themselves engineers?
I'm pretty sure they're grandfathered in in Louisiana, but it's a source of confusion because there are actual professional railroad engineers who do engineering, which is quite a different job. However, there's no long tradition of calling the people who drive a computer network engineers. Also, in much of the world they are just called drivers. Calling train drivers engineers seems to be a pretty US thing.
WBA that varies by state; in Louisiana you absolutely cannot call yourself an engineer or the service you perform engineering if you do not have one of the professional certifications accepted by the state. This is enforced to "avoid confusion".
I agree that the state of Louisiana does a better job at defining the categories of Engineering they wish to regulate and may be more strict due to that, but I still think that context needs to be factored and understood. We have very similar laws in California regarding Professional Engineers, yet all of the Mechanical, Design, Process, and Manufacturing Engineers related to PCB manufacturing that I conduct business with are not licensed by the state nor have they taken an exam through NCEES. Since there isn't a flurry of lawsuits regarding unlicensed conduct (which, in CA, there would be) there obviously is some sort of contextual difference as to what is considered "professional" engineering.
After reading the thread, I'd say Heater may have the best take on this...
I hit a similar situation when I went from working on the computer field to teaching it in the classroom. I'd been working in PC repair for years prior and was hired to "teach" A+ certification. (entry level computer repair skills) I had begun working in computer repair long before that certification existed. Did this make me unqualified to be an A+ certification instructor? The final step the county took was to have my skills evaluated then granted me a Bachelor's equivalent to teach the subject. I had several "degree'd" students in my classroom over the years.
You can split hairs over an official "title" or just do. It's your choice. I'm glad Chip was a "doer".
I do believe there is a law some where about this. You have to have your papers to prove it. Doctors and Lawyers, although they have all the certifications, etc. are truly not Doctors and Lawyers because they are still "practicing". However, they have the paperwork to prove they have done the schooling and all the other requirements which entitles them to "practice" said profession.
Webster's doesn't seem to mention certification or degree here.
sci·en·tist [sahy-uhn-tist] noun
an expert in science, especially one of the physical or natural sciences.
ex·pert [n., v. ek-spurt; adj. ek-spurt, ik-spurt] noun
a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field; specialist; authority: a language expert.
did you say part of the function of your widget was to sound a "fire bell" ?
It sounds any bell, if they want to use it for a fire bell that's their decision.. it just takes two inputs how many alliterations and how long you want them to last.
No. There are no professional organizations which have made the word "scientist" their brand.
Ahh, but if you want the moniker "Mad" officially tacked on to the front of that, then you're legally required to attend one of my special Schools of Thought.
Don't believe me? Look it up. It's in the Constitution. I dare you.
Just call yourself a 'Conceptual Generalist with adequate life experience'. I don't think anyone is trying to regulate that title.
Maybe 'Designer' is adequate.
More importantly, do you want a P.E.? Is that a career goal or are you trying to find a niche without credentials. I have bounced around without complete credentials and there are ways to do it; but in truth, it takes leadership ability and management skills to make any real money in today's world.
In other words, the best route my be a dual education -- a degree in engineering and a degree in business administration. These days it is almost impossible to make anything other than a shirt or a dress without some issue of liability. I think the best solution might be to marry a lawyer.
It sounds any bell, if they want to use it for a fire bell that's their decision.. it just takes two inputs how many alliterations and how long you want them to last.
Not to be contrarian, but make sure you are fully indemnified and held harmless with regard to their use of your widget. Heck you may want to just give this to them (so that no money ever changed hands at all with regard to this widget) with a "use at your own risk" provision attached. Once the widget has any safety implication at all with its use (and or misuse) and dudes with fancy suits and any of these words on their business card (advocate, attorney, attorney-at-law, barrister, counsel, counsellor, counselor, defender, jurisprudent, jurist, legist, member of the bar, procurator, solicitor ) get involved (should there be any form of mishap where property loss or injury occurs) you will not want to be person standing lowest on the hill when the excrement starts to roll about looking for a head to land on.
As I said, sorry to be contrarian here, but "alarm bell" would scare me off from this one, and I, for one, would choose to exercise my design skills elsewhere.
I have almost never called myself an engineer. However "Engineer" is a title my employers have given me. GEC had me down, after graduating, as "Junior Software Engineer", later that became "Senior Engineer". And such like. That's what they would put on the business cards they made for me. When I went freelance why would I not take that monica with me? Normally I did not use it, but if offering a resume to a potential client I would use the titles I was given in those former positions.
Was I any kind of certified engineer? No. I was a physics graduate. I spent two years of on the job training working towards becoming a Chartered Engineer (Electronics) I dropped out of that as I just could not live on the salary I was getting at the time and there was some confusion after they changed the rules whether a physics degree was acceptable for them.
Of course this is a bit historical as at the time there pretty much was no such thing as a real software engineer, By which I mean not many people were into computing at the time, pre-micro revolution. There were not so many places to study for a CS degree even. I don't think you could even be a CEng in computing. Most practitioners had come to software via other education in electronic/maths/whatever.
Given the boom in computer use, and the WEB even today most working "software engineers" are no such ticketed engineers.
I have almost never called myself an engineer. However "Engineer" is a title my employers have given me. GEC had me down, after graduating, as "Junior Software Engineer", later that became "Senior Engineer". ...
Given the boom in computer use, and the WEB even today most working "software engineers" are no such ticketed engineers.
It pretty much the same over here: "Engineer" is in the job title and its not a legal thing, EXCEPT for the case of Professional Engineer which is a legal standing, and is licensed and regulated. .
It pretty much the same over here: "Engineer" is in the job title and its not a legal thing, EXCEPT for the case of Professional Engineer which is a legal standing, and is licensed and regulated. .
That's an interesting read... What's the "industrial exemption clause?"
I think it means the company can hire us, but we are not expected to meet the credentials of a licensed engineer. Its the responsibility of the company (rather than the individual "engineer") to ensure that the product meets whatever criterion (through testing, process, or licensed engineer supervision). At least that's the effect its had in my case, but I'm not the expert.
There are a lot of dis-insentives for getting licensed.
It costs a lot, maybe more than you get back. You have to work for peanuts for someone for years, you have get a group of P.E.s to recommend you, you have to pay out a lot of cash in study, and after all that is said and done... you have to buy continuing education and pay annual fees to keep it. And then there is the likelyhood, that you will want to buy some malpractise insurance as well.
BTW, you don't have to become an engineer to be subjected to this treadmill. You can chase paper in many other forms.
Comments
This still barely even effects me, we have electricians on our payroll if they want to plug the device in so be it, whatever... If they still want to raise a stick I can just have my dads company do it and have them bill us for it...
I should throw in there we are one of the if not the largest manufacturing plant for pipe fittings. I see our stuff on firetrucks all over america, and in almost every oil or natural gas application /shrug.
I'm pretty sure they're grandfathered in in Louisiana, but it's a source of confusion because there are actual professional railroad engineers who do engineering, which is quite a different job. However, there's no long tradition of calling the people who drive a computer network engineers. Also, in much of the world they are just called drivers. Calling train drivers engineers seems to be a pretty US thing.
I agree that the state of Louisiana does a better job at defining the categories of Engineering they wish to regulate and may be more strict due to that, but I still think that context needs to be factored and understood. We have very similar laws in California regarding Professional Engineers, yet all of the Mechanical, Design, Process, and Manufacturing Engineers related to PCB manufacturing that I conduct business with are not licensed by the state nor have they taken an exam through NCEES. Since there isn't a flurry of lawsuits regarding unlicensed conduct (which, in CA, there would be) there obviously is some sort of contextual difference as to what is considered "professional" engineering.
Just wondering...
Bean
I hit a similar situation when I went from working on the computer field to teaching it in the classroom. I'd been working in PC repair for years prior and was hired to "teach" A+ certification. (entry level computer repair skills) I had begun working in computer repair long before that certification existed. Did this make me unqualified to be an A+ certification instructor? The final step the county took was to have my skills evaluated then granted me a Bachelor's equivalent to teach the subject. I had several "degree'd" students in my classroom over the years.
You can split hairs over an official "title" or just do. It's your choice. I'm glad Chip was a "doer".
Jeff
sci·en·tist [sahy-uhn-tist]
noun
an expert in science, especially one of the physical or natural sciences.
ex·pert [n., v. ek-spurt; adj. ek-spurt, ik-spurt]
noun
a person who has special skill or knowledge in some particular field; specialist; authority: a language expert.
It sounds any bell, if they want to use it for a fire bell that's their decision.. it just takes two inputs how many alliterations and how long you want them to last.
No. There are no professional organizations which have made the word "scientist" their brand.
Ahh, but if you want the moniker "Mad" officially tacked on to the front of that, then you're legally required to attend one of my special Schools of Thought.
Don't believe me? Look it up. It's in the Constitution. I dare you.
Maybe 'Designer' is adequate.
More importantly, do you want a P.E.? Is that a career goal or are you trying to find a niche without credentials. I have bounced around without complete credentials and there are ways to do it; but in truth, it takes leadership ability and management skills to make any real money in today's world.
In other words, the best route my be a dual education -- a degree in engineering and a degree in business administration. These days it is almost impossible to make anything other than a shirt or a dress without some issue of liability. I think the best solution might be to marry a lawyer.
Not to be contrarian, but make sure you are fully indemnified and held harmless with regard to their use of your widget. Heck you may want to just give this to them (so that no money ever changed hands at all with regard to this widget) with a "use at your own risk" provision attached. Once the widget has any safety implication at all with its use (and or misuse) and dudes with fancy suits and any of these words on their business card (advocate, attorney, attorney-at-law, barrister, counsel, counsellor, counselor, defender, jurisprudent, jurist, legist, member of the bar, procurator, solicitor ) get involved (should there be any form of mishap where property loss or injury occurs) you will not want to be person standing lowest on the hill when the excrement starts to roll about looking for a head to land on.
As I said, sorry to be contrarian here, but "alarm bell" would scare me off from this one, and I, for one, would choose to exercise my design skills elsewhere.
I have almost never called myself an engineer. However "Engineer" is a title my employers have given me. GEC had me down, after graduating, as "Junior Software Engineer", later that became "Senior Engineer". And such like. That's what they would put on the business cards they made for me. When I went freelance why would I not take that monica with me? Normally I did not use it, but if offering a resume to a potential client I would use the titles I was given in those former positions.
Was I any kind of certified engineer? No. I was a physics graduate. I spent two years of on the job training working towards becoming a Chartered Engineer (Electronics) I dropped out of that as I just could not live on the salary I was getting at the time and there was some confusion after they changed the rules whether a physics degree was acceptable for them.
Of course this is a bit historical as at the time there pretty much was no such thing as a real software engineer, By which I mean not many people were into computing at the time, pre-micro revolution. There were not so many places to study for a CS degree even. I don't think you could even be a CEng in computing. Most practitioners had come to software via other education in electronic/maths/whatever.
Given the boom in computer use, and the WEB even today most working "software engineers" are no such ticketed engineers.
http://engineers.texas.gov/swe/main.htm
It pretty much the same over here: "Engineer" is in the job title and its not a legal thing, EXCEPT for the case of Professional Engineer which is a legal standing, and is licensed and regulated. .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering
That's an interesting read... What's the "industrial exemption clause?"
I think it means the company can hire us, but we are not expected to meet the credentials of a licensed engineer. Its the responsibility of the company (rather than the individual "engineer") to ensure that the product meets whatever criterion (through testing, process, or licensed engineer supervision). At least that's the effect its had in my case, but I'm not the expert.
It costs a lot, maybe more than you get back. You have to work for peanuts for someone for years, you have get a group of P.E.s to recommend you, you have to pay out a lot of cash in study, and after all that is said and done... you have to buy continuing education and pay annual fees to keep it. And then there is the likelyhood, that you will want to buy some malpractise insurance as well.
BTW, you don't have to become an engineer to be subjected to this treadmill. You can chase paper in many other forms.