Kind of a legality question here.
Zetsu
Posts: 186
If someone asked you to design them some sort of embedded system for pay ( so you are doing it professionally in that sense I guess), what do you need to do it legally? If I have a Degree in Information Systems ( computer science ), but not a BSEE does that work ? The reason I ask, I know at least in Oklahoma you have to go to college then work under an engineer for 4 years to get your 'stamp' if you are a Electronic Engineer. Does the same thing apply ?? There is no info anywhere on the web it would seem that explains this. Lawyers are to expensive just to ask random questions, so I figured I would start here. 
Comments
I'm not a licensed engineer, so I cannot call myself an "engineer" professionally. But that does not stop me from offering my services as a designer and programmer. When I do such work, I make certain that it is understood not to be a "work made for hire," which would imply that the customer owns all the IP that I deliver. If I did the work "for hire," my bag of deliverable tricks would gradually become depleted. What I do instead is offer a one-time, paid-up, non-exclusive license to use the IP which I deliver, the ownership of which I retain. Finally, I do not offer any warranties beyond a refund of the purchase price and make sure that the customer assumes all liability for incidental and consequential damages.
If you cannot write an air-tight contract yourself that includes these protections, you really do need to consult an attorney.
-Phil
Did Edison have such a "stamp" when he was busy with light bulbs?
Did Tesla have such a stamp when he was busy with electricity generation and distribution as we know it?
Did Hewlet and Packard have such a stamp when they started one of the most famous electronics companies ever in their garage?
What about Wozniak and Apple?
Going back in time, what about James Watt? Father of the steam engine as we know it. He was not allowed to practice his trade in Glasgow, just because he was not a Glasgow boy.
This kind of restriction is why all this stuff is happening in Asia now a days.
If you even have to think about it you are lost.
There are situations, primarily involving things like government contracts, zoning, and so forth, where actual engineering by actual engineers is required. If you're designing a process control or data collection system which isn't subject to any specific regulations, though -- something I've done many, many times over the last 30 years -- you're OK.
I totally agree with you, but government wants to regulate everything. I dun have $50000 to pay those type of fines
I use to work for my dad when I was growing up 13 to 20 ( he is an electrical contractor) I am very versed into what happens to people that do not have licenses to operate in there career fields.
Then again, if you are building a bridge that expected to not fall down perhaps someone should take responsibility when they say it won't. Same goes for other dangerous installations of machines and electrical equipment.
On the other hand, anyone should be able to design anything.
As a software "engineer" with no formal training in computer science, I'm a physics grad, I have signed off on test proceedures for the Primary Flight Computer software of the Boeing 777.
By the way, does Chip Gracey have a "stamp" saying he is allowed to design micro chips?
Nowadays, so many of the real advances seem to be coming from a cross-pollinating of disciplines, it makes me wonder who's going to form some sort of professional society to try to monopolize power and impose "stamp" mentalities on all of it. Who's going to step up and impose testing requirements on people working in biomimetic nanotechnology, for example? or the wild and wooly ever-evolving wilderness where automation meets genetic engineering? I'm sure some cabal of dolts is working on it right now.
I wouldn't operate now without the following-
1. E&O Insurance
2. Contracts from expensive lawyers
3. Background checking clients, employees and subcontractors
I don't know about the engineer stamp thing haha. If you get a business license through the city you live in, I'm pretty sure you can do whatever you want, as most people do. If you're going to do this frequently yeah you really do need to protect yourself. If it costs too much then you aren't charging you client enough.
If you're doing a one-time job for someone, then you have a real dilemma. Maybe try to find some related contract and reword it some.
I'm in the process of getting my SaaS contracts done and it's not that bad. $300 and I won't have to worry about some new client coming on board to cause problems, as some always do!
This is only usually an actual issue, if you miss-represent and they need some sign-off.
So, if you are not an PE, call yourself an Designer, and avoid any sign-offs that need a PE, or other Qualified Approval.
Phil's advice also sounds good, for any over-lawyered country.
Industrial / Manufacturing exemption (for the state I live in).
But I steer clear of any sort of building wiring.
I don't even really say anything when people want to talk about their house wiring.
I don't even touch the wiring in the building of the company that I work for.
Zetsu:
Oklahoma does not appear to have any sort of exemption.
Move to some state that has the exemption you need if you don't want all of that hassle.
I have an E.I.T. from the State of California Board of Professional Engineers and this doesn't really amount to much. In some disciplines, you need to have licenses and certifications to sign off on projects. In other disciplines, a lot can be done with nothing.
My primary engineering background is in home construction and one can generally design and build a home in the US without an architect or engineer's license. When I had a general contractor license, I often provided plans for free in order to get the job. And architect would charge about 10% for design services, and an engineer was only required if something unusual was needed to prove the safety of the structure or the foundation. But that was only for home building. If you wanted to get into building schools or hospitals or office buildings, you would need all the professionals involved.
But the truth is that the professionals hire many college students to do substantial amounts of work and then review and sign off on the finished product. If you are offered work in that context, you can do it. And I suspect that if an employer or contractor does not have the proper credentials, they are the ones that have to resolve the problem by hiring a professional to sign off.
The system is really a kind of apprentice system that wants to limit the number of engineers that can set up large engineering firms. It also requires years of work experience before one can sit for a license exam, so a large pool of workers are available. And I believe that even with the years of work, you need references from several licensed engineers to get a P.E. That may be the toughest of all requirements if you are not willing to just be a humble employee for your working years and change jobs often.
I would have loved to have acquired a P.E. in Civil Engineering, but I found it impossible to find an engineering firm that would provide me with the years of work and the recommendations. Why? Well, I passed my E.I.T. with a degree in Fine Arts. Engineering companies wants employees with engineering degrees and the highest grades that they can get. I had no educational background.
The same issues apply to accounting and bookkeeping. It is quite difficult to become a C.P.A. , but the reality is that anyone can be a bookkeeper. And a bookkeeper can prepare all of a companies tax returns and financial statements. You just need the C.P.A. for certain situations... such as when your company becomes a public listed corporation.
Where would Bill Gates or Steve Jobs have gotten to if they needed licenses and certifications to achieve what they did?
BTW, as a licensed General Contractor I did have to use licensed Electricians and licensed Plumbers, but that was about all. For really small tasks, like installing one sink or wiring a dishwasher - my relationship with my electrician and plumber were such that they would sign off on it and I would just go ahead and install the item. Of course, they expected something for this and expected that the workmanship was up to building code. But they really did not want to be bothered with really small jobs.
It depends what it is meant to do. Probably need more paperwork if it was for medical purposes for instance.
In general terms, I agree with Ken Gracey. Just get on with it!
A small anecdote from my dad who is a retired civil engineer. He was at a school reunion and most of his friends are also retired and they were comparing notes as to who had been the most successful and they realised it was the guy who had come bottom of the E form at school but who went on to run a large engineering firm. They asked him his secret and he said that he always knew he would not be smart enough to go to university, so he employed the clever people when he needed them. "Brains are cheap", he said.
So if you need signoff for a brilliant new whizzo system, by then you will be able to afford the right people.
Addit: I see Loopy above has mentioned college students. In that case, "Brains are cheap, especially college students".
Without revealing all your design secrets, what in general terms are you designing?
I did it off the clock, to replace the current system that's been in place an older Zilog setup, but the guy who designed it left and didn't leave any source code. But, sense I did it off the clock I just wanted to sell the IP to them directly and have them make up the boxes themselves ( they have an electronics tech). Something about drilling holes into metal boxes with a hand drill and running threads though said holes to make up chassis doesn't agree with me personally. I just wanted to know if I could legally do this or not with out a EE degree.
Ill take pictures of it all once the first one is in place ( I already built the first one obviously ).
Re
Is it low voltage or mains voltage?
The wall wart has pretty much become a boundary between license and no license. If your side uses 24V, it doesn't require an electrican, just buy a wall wart and plug it in. If you actually are wiring 120VAC, that would be considered a 'no-no'.
If it is one-time thing and wired safely, I'd just do it. If the company wants to make 500 devices, they have to deal with all the agencies involved. All 120VAC should be wired inside a fire-proof box as most wiring failures are at the connections at the ends of wire.
Mickster
To make it easy though I added pig tails to my boxes so you can just plug them into a 120vac recep.
If somebody thinks there is a lot of money to be made, then there is a chance of a battle over who is supposed to do what.
But if you actually are making work for an electrician, they are happy to install what you have done.
There are a lot of players in the realpolitik
-craftspeople -- electricians, plumbers, operating engineers, carpenters, laborers, other union members
-professional people - lawyers, doctors, engineers, accountants, human resource directors, professional engineers
-certifying outfits - State Board of Engineers, Underwriters Laboratories, the FCC, fire inspectors, building inspectors
-the government - OSHA, and much more
The truth is that very few people can afford to hire all and to comply with everything.
In a state like California, there are way too many people with way too much government involved. But in a state like Oaklahoma, people might actually be quite reasonable and helpful. States with smaller populations and less wealth tend to let the people solve there own business problems.
Indeed! I recently ran up against an FCC Part 15 regulation for digital devices as an unintentional radiator. It seems that if you're going to sell digitally controlled devices to the public, they have to be FCC certified not to emit EMI. Gee, I wonder how many people actually go through the $8K+ process to get the proper certifications? Think about all the little shops out there making things out of Stamps and Propeller chips, etc. that are selling maybe a few hundred units a year. Betcha many people on this forum didn't even know about this FCC thing, too. Didja?
So you are just selling a design? As long as you don't claim it was created by a certified engineer your ok. Its up to the client whether they want to buy it from you for what ever reasons. .
My entire career as a software developer, I had job title of "Software Engineer" or "Senior Software Engineer" as defined by the employer. I don't give a Smile what they call me as long as they pay. My resume says I have a Bachelors in CS, and they hired me. I never even knew there was such a thing as Certified Professional Engineer or the legal implications until the general engineer next to me got his certification renewed. It just never came up. I'm pretty sure the HR departments didn't know there was any distinction either.
When I passed the Software Quality Engineer exam, I go my certification and the right to put CSQE after my name. In the case of CSQE, one needs the certification to qualify for the job. So as long as I don't claim to be some other type of engineer everything is fine. In all my other situations, "engineering" is an adjective describing the work, not the person.
Basically yes. I put together one unit and as a package I am going to directly sell to them the schematic, detailed assembly instructions for the case, and the source code as well as the single unit I already built for them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_and_licensure_in_engineering
Calling yourself a "consultant" works around all the problems.
The "engineer" label is intended to prevent non-qualified individuals from providing services that could affect public welfare and safety, such as traffic management or bridge inspection. There are accepted uses of the term in industries where licensing isn't required -- a "video engineer" may not have any advanced qualifications, but unless the job impacts public safety the term is not specifically disallowed (in many jurisdictions). For that matter, there is no licencing examination or board for such a service.
FF
This caused Microsoft some major trouble because in those states, people who have MCSE's cannot spell out what the E stands for on their business cards or advertisements, because a MCSE is not one of the engineering disciplines recognized by the state.
Also, in my experience Loopy's advice is a bit conservative; in decades of working in industrial facilities I've found that any line cord is usually taken as a barrier between the licensed and no-license work, even when the line cord is hooking up a big panel with dozens of switches, indicators, and whatnot. Only a few facilities (generally large chemical plants) actually make you get an electrician to touch anything high voltage even if it's powered from an outlet. On the other hand food plants often have unlicensed maintenance guys and contractors working directly with 480V three-phase panels.
I built a force field after seeing Star Trek for the first time. Used a bushy shrub in the hillside by the house, plus some well-paced rocks, and a plywood panel discarded by my stepfather. Turned out the shrub was poison oak. I was a Force Field Service Engineer with a rash.
-- Gordon
Was it Louisiana that had that crazy issue where railroad engineers couldn't call themselves engineers? Some of these guys have a high school diploma and little else, but had been doing the job for decades -- the term includes your basic train driver that gets paid barely above minimum wage. Last I heard they made some "grandfathered" exceptions. Don't recall which state(s) that was, though.
What would Casey Jones be called today? "The brave railroad engine interpreter."
-- Gordon