I didn't want to miss a chance to disagree with erco. (Though technically I'm not disagreeing, because I agree that what he said is his opinion. So I guess I'm just expression an alternate opinion.)
In my (I wont claim it's humble) opinion the heart of robotics is programming. Even if one never were to build their own robot, they could be a great roboticist if they can come up with useful algorithms.
As I often hear (and say) "hardware is easy, software is hard." I think you can learn a lot about robotics from programming the Scribbler 2 robot.
I have many good robots that could be great if I could only program them to be so.
OMG, how did I miss this post? "hardware is easy, software is hard." Here openeth the can of worms...
A lot of software is copy & paste. Isn't that the whole point of the object exchange? And face it, programming ALWAYS works in the simulator.
On the other hand, check those ever-loving forum posts. It's getting harder for most people to drill a hole or attach a wheel to a motor or figure out a gear ratio. That's what public school did when they canceled shop class. I would love to say "you can't copy & paste robot parts" but some smart alec will bring up 3D printing. That assumes the parts were properly designed and are a good choice for your robot, still integral mechanical design choices.
Now as for "I think you can learn a lot about robotics from programming the Scribbler 2 robot", you're very right. That's mainly 'cuz it's an extremely well-designed ,well thought out and robust platform, thanks to PhiPi. The 3 most important things about a robot? Hardware. Hardware. Hardware.
Software is fourth. Face it, the slickest robot software in the world can't compensate for a poorly-built, ill-conceived chassis. Wobbly wheels notwithstanding.
Your move, Brother Duane! And I invite PhiPi (and others with the proper credentials) to weigh in.
uane i have a whole book about arduino and kinect, it goes over attachimg to the kinects motion stuff witj an arduino, it does leave out the mics and rgb camera, although im sure with a usb host chip and some inganuity you could get the rest working.
i think the title is arduino and kinect, everything should be easily applicable to a prop.
Your move, Brother Duane! And I invite PhiPi (and others with the proper credentials) to weigh in.
I don't think my brain is up to a good debate right now but I'd love to hear Phil's perspective. He always explains things so much better than I do.
Okay, I'll give this a shot anyway. Let's take an example of a PropBOE-Bot with a couple of extra servos and a Parallax Laser Range Finder. You just need to buy the hardware. It wasn't easy for the people who invented semiconductors, or the Propeller chip or the CMOS cameras, but it's easy for us. I think with the hardware just described it's possible to develop a really smart robot with machine vision that could find its way around an environment and follow just about any kind of line one would care to make. Heck, if you had good enough software it wouldn't need a line, it could find its way based on the walls of the room.
Let's think of a robot to fetch a beverage from the frig. While I think the hardware for such a robot would be a challenge, I think the hard part starts when the robot needs to be programmed.
I'm pretty sure I have all the hardware needed to get my ELEV-8 or hexacopter to autonomously fly a couple of miles away and return and land in the same spot it took off from. The limiting factor in the endevor is software. The hardware is easy (as long as I don't need to design my own microcontroller, GPS unit or wind my own motors).
I had a lot of fun building my own hexacopter but now the hard part starts, programming it so it will fly the way I want it to.
Wouldn't the forum be kind of boring if we all agred with each other all the time?
Duane i have a whole book about arduino and kinect, it goes over attachimg to the kinects motion stuff witj an arduino, it does leave out the mics and rgb camera, although im sure with a usb host chip and some inganuity you could get the rest working.
i think the title is arduino and kinect, everything should be easily applicable to a prop.
If you're more of a hands-on hacker, why not make some sweet Sphero accessories: ramps, obstacle courses, Sphero-based vehicles, there are a ton of possibilities.
Gag me with a smart phone.
@Luke,
Sorry for the deviation from (what are we talking about?) oh, Lego.
I've only used the original RIS 1.0 (which you could plug into a wall if you didn't want to use batteries). It had pretty limited input. I think the input was on/off and analog voltage. The newer stuff uses I2C communication protocol so the sensors are more sophisticated. I think the NXT motors have position and speed feedback while the older ones you could only set the power level (you didn't have a way of sensing the motion (IIRC)).
sorry about the horrible grammar in my last post, thats what happrns when posting while walking.@hapula what is ris2.0 is that also legos?Ive got to say i think software can be the easiest part but also very complicated depending on the approach taken. if you want to buckle down and learn software is much more than copy and paste. i dont belive in using things like obex unless you A already know what your doing or B just have no intrest in writing the code your copy and pasting becuase its just some driver for a small piece of the whole project which youll never have to deal with again. a perfect example is logging coords to an sd card, its just something that needs to happen and you probably wont benefit from knowing fat32 inside out. On the other hand youd better be writing your encoders from scratch as tight as possible so when your logs show cordinates or math thats off you can fix it. on the other hand i happen to be in the generation of kids who barely got screwed out of shop and electronics(class of 02) by a year maybe. i spent most of my time in cad and cisco class while doing code for quake 2 mods at home. since graduating ive been an industerial electrician and a mechanic which has taught me alot about basic construction and mechanics although i still find the simplest hardware frustrating. for example the last two days ive been working on two boards to plug my motors into that sit between them and the hbridge the schematic is simple enough its just 4 3amp shottkeys and 3 caps with some female headers. i keep snapping the protoboards while trying get the pcb holes bored to fit the diodes huge leads. also everytime i start a new piece of the project there is usually some in depth electronics stuff i have to do alot of research on to make sure what im building is up to par...it all depends on whats more frustrating redoing hardware 4x and waiting for mail order parts or debugging pasm... in the end your code could be fine but your digital signals could be all messed up from bad hardware decooupling etc... i dont think either is really easier than the other
RIS - 8 bit hitachi micro, I believe; motors and sensors connect to brick via wires with specialLego blocks on the end; mostly Lego blocks in the kit, few Technics beams and speciality parts; software on PC is not very good and requires serial port connection
NXT - 32 bit hitachi processor, I believe; electrical connections via cables with RJ-?? (not 11, not 45) connectors; construction methods stronger due to technics beams and pins and speciality parts; much better software with USB and Bluetooth programming; lots more online information
NXT - 32 bit hitachi processor, I believe; electrical connections via cables with RJ-?? (not 11, not 45) connectors;
It's almost like a normal phone line connector (I don't remember the number) but the tab is offset so you don't plug your NXT into the phone line of your house. It's a proprietary connector. I think I'm seen the bare connectors for sale at some point.
It's a proprietary connector. I think I'm seen the bare connectors for sale at some point.
They are proprietary, but I've definitely seen third parties sell them as well as the cables. Lego also documented each wire in the cable, so I've seen people hook the Lego motors up to third party MCU'S. Third parties also sell NXT compatible sensors (gyros, CMU cam).
My son and I got the NXT off the shelf today and built a robot. One thing that is definitely impressive is the low frustration and ease of success. There's enough sample code out there that you can usually reuse something.
I like the low frustration and ease of success! Boe bot gave me a little frustration because of the electronic wiring and schematics. Oh well i had to learn the hard way.
Can I ask how far you made it into the Robotics book? Seems like you just got the thing and barely had time to assemble it before wanting to sell it. Assuming that you do sell it on Amazon or Ebay, you have nothing to lose by "playing with it" and learning all you can before you sell it. Even if the particulars of electronics and wiring "isn't your thing", there are many general principles and methods that would benefit your general robotics knowledge and help you with NXT or whatever you go with.
It may likely be more saleable before Christmas than after, so I understand the sense of urgency on your part to sell. I humbly suggest that you have the same sense of urgency for learning.
Oh i assembled it and got to the part where the whiskers trigger a left or right turn and the corresponding leds light up. The next section where you add other sensors didnt appeal to me that much because it just does the same thing... I also had whats a microcontroller book to and i just felt that it was boring...
Haha! Very funny. I may tinker , a little more, with the whats a microcontroller book and kit. But the boebot is just yuck
You're killing us... Different strokes, I guess. You realize of course, that the BoeBot is a BoE on wheels. Everything in the WAM book can be done on the BoeBot, too. On the fly.
Oh well. Hopefully i can get back my LEGO mindstorms ris 2.0 kit from ex girlfriend too! HA! That i remember was a lot of fun. I had the vision command expansion kit too with it as well.
Wow you never opened it??????????? That was one of my favorite expansion kits for the Mindstorms. Haha! Did you have the Mars Rover expansion kit as well?
Comments
OMG, how did I miss this post? "hardware is easy, software is hard." Here openeth the can of worms...
A lot of software is copy & paste. Isn't that the whole point of the object exchange? And face it, programming ALWAYS works in the simulator.
On the other hand, check those ever-loving forum posts. It's getting harder for most people to drill a hole or attach a wheel to a motor or figure out a gear ratio. That's what public school did when they canceled shop class. I would love to say "you can't copy & paste robot parts" but some smart alec will bring up 3D printing. That assumes the parts were properly designed and are a good choice for your robot, still integral mechanical design choices.
Now as for "I think you can learn a lot about robotics from programming the Scribbler 2 robot", you're very right. That's mainly 'cuz it's an extremely well-designed ,well thought out and robust platform, thanks to PhiPi. The 3 most important things about a robot? Hardware. Hardware. Hardware.
Software is fourth.
Your move, Brother Duane! And I invite PhiPi (and others with the proper credentials) to weigh in.
i think the title is arduino and kinect, everything should be easily applicable to a prop.
I was wondering how I got away with that comment without being challenged.
I don't think my brain is up to a good debate right now but I'd love to hear Phil's perspective. He always explains things so much better than I do.
Okay, I'll give this a shot anyway. Let's take an example of a PropBOE-Bot with a couple of extra servos and a Parallax Laser Range Finder. You just need to buy the hardware. It wasn't easy for the people who invented semiconductors, or the Propeller chip or the CMOS cameras, but it's easy for us. I think with the hardware just described it's possible to develop a really smart robot with machine vision that could find its way around an environment and follow just about any kind of line one would care to make. Heck, if you had good enough software it wouldn't need a line, it could find its way based on the walls of the room.
Let's think of a robot to fetch a beverage from the frig. While I think the hardware for such a robot would be a challenge, I think the hard part starts when the robot needs to be programmed.
I'm pretty sure I have all the hardware needed to get my ELEV-8 or hexacopter to autonomously fly a couple of miles away and return and land in the same spot it took off from. The limiting factor in the endevor is software. The hardware is easy (as long as I don't need to design my own microcontroller, GPS unit or wind my own motors).
I had a lot of fun building my own hexacopter but now the hard part starts, programming it so it will fly the way I want it to.
Wouldn't the forum be kind of boring if we all agred with each other all the time?
Thanks for clarifying my clarification.
I didn't know that.
When we have time for a great debate.
After the Christmas lights are up.
And the Christmas party is over.
And the Christmas shopping is done.
And my new robot is operational.
Oh heck, I don't have the time. I cave. You win, Duane. Software rocks. Hardware sucks.
You sure showed me.
Exactly!
Though I think this so called "hackable" robot is really dumb since the only hacking to be done is in software.
Gag me with a smart phone.
@Luke,
Sorry for the deviation from (what are we talking about?) oh, Lego.
I've only used the original RIS 1.0 (which you could plug into a wall if you didn't want to use batteries). It had pretty limited input. I think the input was on/off and analog voltage. The newer stuff uses I2C communication protocol so the sensors are more sophisticated. I think the NXT motors have position and speed feedback while the older ones you could only set the power level (you didn't have a way of sensing the motion (IIRC)).
I have a RIS 1.1 and the NXT 2.0
RIS - 8 bit hitachi micro, I believe; motors and sensors connect to brick via wires with specialLego blocks on the end; mostly Lego blocks in the kit, few Technics beams and speciality parts; software on PC is not very good and requires serial port connection
NXT - 32 bit hitachi processor, I believe; electrical connections via cables with RJ-?? (not 11, not 45) connectors; construction methods stronger due to technics beams and pins and speciality parts; much better software with USB and Bluetooth programming; lots more online information
It's almost like a normal phone line connector (I don't remember the number) but the tab is offset so you don't plug your NXT into the phone line of your house. It's a proprietary connector. I think I'm seen the bare connectors for sale at some point.
They are proprietary, but I've definitely seen third parties sell them as well as the cables. Lego also documented each wire in the cable, so I've seen people hook the Lego motors up to third party MCU'S. Third parties also sell NXT compatible sensors (gyros, CMU cam).
My son and I got the NXT off the shelf today and built a robot. One thing that is definitely impressive is the low frustration and ease of success. There's enough sample code out there that you can usually reuse something.
http://www.parallax.com/Store/Robots/AllRobots/tabid/128/ProductID/302/List/0/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName,ProductName
Lego is good, but that's a steal.
That's the quickest BoeBot fail in history! When you get the NXT, please report back with your thoughts.
It may likely be more saleable before Christmas than after, so I understand the sense of urgency on your part to sell. I humbly suggest that you have the same sense of urgency for learning.
I told them to put more explosions and chase scenes in that book!!
@Andy Lindsay: Jazz up your writing style, or Michael Bay may be writing the next BoeBot book!
You're killing us... Different strokes, I guess. You realize of course, that the BoeBot is a BoE on wheels. Everything in the WAM book can be done on the BoeBot, too. On the fly.
BTW, you can always customize BoeBot to make it more exciting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuXMh1_-6Ag
You are my complete and utter opposite!
Anyone know where I can sell my Mindstorms kit besides amazon.com?