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Issue with PropBOE — Parallax Forums

Issue with PropBOE

TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
edited 2012-07-24 20:08 in Propeller 1
Hi folks,

Just got a new PropBOE in the mail yesterday - plugged a USB cable in, turned it on, and no dice. When first putting in the USB cable, the Serial Tx/Rx lights light up, but the power lights don't do anything. Plugged in a wallwart for the 6-9v portion and only 1 of the power lights turn on (left one). PropTool can't recognize a propeller chip either. Nothing seems to get hot, and I've tried changing the USB cable to rule that out - again, nothing changed.

I tested my other PropBOE and that seemed to work just as expected. Any suggestions or is this a DOA?
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Comments

  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,400
    edited 2012-07-19 17:37
    Anything is a possibility, though DOA isn't likely. Couple of ideas:

    - try it on another PC
    - watch the Device Manager COM port manager - see a new one added during plug-in?
    - verify you're not plugging into a USB 3.0 port (have had some problems here)
    - are you using a hub? Is it a powered hub? Not sure of the relevance of this question just yet.

    We'll let this post bake overnight and see if anything changes after some more knowledgeable people chime in. If it's still a problem, I can have one on your doorstep by Saturday morning if we conclude any troubleshooting by 3 PM Central tomorrow.

    Ken Gracey
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,826
    edited 2012-07-19 17:49
    if the power switch is in the right position, I think the power light should come on as soon as USB enumerates...
    My guess would be that the computer isn't recognizing the FTDI chip for some reason...
    Do you have another computer you can test it with?
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2012-07-19 17:57
    That USB 3.0 issue is a serious one. (Look for a blue port and avoid using them with PropBOE)

    (also lets get together about the radio show interview (sorry I've been so busy))
  • TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
    edited 2012-07-19 18:00
    Okay so..

    1) Tried it on two other computers (one without USB hub and one with a hub) and same issue
    2) I do not see a new one added during plug-in. And it seems that when I plug the cable into the hub (on my computer), it says "Found New Hardware....A problem occurred during hardware installation, your new hardware might not work properly."
    3) Not USB 3.0
    4) So thus far, total I've tested it on 3 computers. For two of the computers, we used hubs, both previously used to program a number of different propeller boards. Neither are powered hubs. And for the computer without a hub, well...no hub :p.

    Thanks!

    Addie
  • CircuitsoftCircuitsoft Posts: 1,166
    edited 2012-07-19 18:09
    Try a different USB cable if you have a spare. I've had such issues from bad cables before.
  • TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
    edited 2012-07-19 18:11
    Circuitsoft wrote: »
    Try a different USB cable if you have a spare. I've had such issues from bad cables before.

    Yep tried this too.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,400
    edited 2012-07-19 18:12
    Addie, I'm wondering how this got through our test procedure.

    Could you give the USB connector a good look and see that it is securely reflowed to the surface of the PCB? If you can't tell, go ahead and heat the pads and the smaller USB wires with a very fine-pitch soldering iron tip. Sometimes the paste might not have reflowed correctly and has an intermittent connection. You could also dig a bit deeper with a voltmeter and check resistance between various points. But you shouldn't be expected to do that, so if we don't figure this out quickly I'll get another one off to you Friday morning.
  • TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
    edited 2012-07-19 18:30
    Mm...seems to look like it's pretty securely reflowed to the surface. I assume /something/ must be okay about it since the Tx Rx pins do light up when the USB cable is first plugged in. I'm pretty sure it was a 1 in a billion chance that this happened :)
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,826
    edited 2012-07-19 18:42
    It is sounding like something is bad with the FTDI chip...
    You might try plugging it in with the power switch in the off position and see if the same thing happens....
  • TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
    edited 2012-07-19 18:44
    Tried the power switch in all three positions, still no dice.
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,826
    edited 2012-07-19 19:08
    Can't think of much else to try... FTDI has some lower level tools, but I'm not sure they'll help here...
    Only thing that could possibly help is to update your FTDI drivers. But, that maybe a longshot...
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,400
    edited 2012-07-19 20:01
    Addie, Jim will send one overnight for Saturday delivery.

    If you don't mind, please put that one back in USPS to my attention for some failure analysis. I've got another PropBOE to share with our Manufacturing crew that exhibits a power switch/LED inconsistency. We'll cover both of these problems in one visit. I'll bring them some In-N-Out Burgers to break the ice.
  • TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
    edited 2012-07-19 20:53
    Will do Ken - thanks for your time and attention to this! I will send it back!

    Addie
  • TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
    edited 2012-07-20 00:47
    Rayman wrote: »
    Can't think of much else to try... FTDI has some lower level tools, but I'm not sure they'll help here...
    Only thing that could possibly help is to update your FTDI drivers. But, that maybe a longshot...

    And sorry, I know this thread could really be closed, but here's some extra information for those troubleshooting it:

    I updated my FTDI drivers, and still the same issue.

    One of the Tymkrs IRCers suggested I use FT_Prog from http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Utilities.htm to see if the FTDI chip is recognized when plugged in. I hooked the usb cable up with the bad board and it couldn't find any device. But when I hooked it up to a working PropBOE, it gave me ftdi eeprom information.
  • TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
    edited 2012-07-22 14:44
    Okay. You're not going to believe it, because I'm not believing it, but the new board seems to have some sort of issue, again, with our set up.

    So. We get the new board, Whisker decides to try it on his XP SP2 computer to rule out my computer system causing the issue. We put the USB cable in, RX TX lights lit up, "Hardware problem" statement came up on the desktop, and in PWR 1 or 2 position, no LEDs.

    We try it on his Windows 7 laptop (one we didn't try on before since we don't program on it), it works. There're rx tx lights, found new hardware, and PWR 1 and 2 showed LEDs lit. PropTool was able to run a program.

    So we take the "broken" previous one, connect it to the windows 7 laptop, There're rx tx lights, found new hardware, only the left PWR LED lights up even when the PWR switch is at position 2. But PropTool is able to run the same program.

    So now I take the new PropBOE to my XP SP2 computer and try to power it up. No dice. Still have the RX TX lights, hardware problem notification on desktop, no LEDs, no PropTool recognition.

    It wouldn't be possible for some sort of Windows compatibility issue, is there?

    I should mention, if it helps, that the PropBOE that does work with my system is Rev A. And these that have not been able to work on my system are Rev B.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2012-07-22 15:01
    The PropBOE works fine with my Windows XP SP2 netbook. Try reinstalling the FTDI driver.
  • TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
    edited 2012-07-22 15:07
    Yeah we've updated our ftdi drivers on both machines, and it still doesn't work.

    We could even do a video to show the issues if needed.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2012-07-22 15:32
    Have you tried a different USB cable? There were one or two cases of people with similar problems and defective USB cables.
  • Mike GMike G Posts: 2,702
    edited 2012-07-22 15:40
    I had a problem with my PropBOE too. It turned out to be the USB connector on the board. I used a small screwdriver to open the female connection a bit and a soldering iron to heat up the connections - just to be sure. Still the USB cable requires good push to get a connection.
  • TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
    edited 2012-07-22 16:02
    Yep, we've tried three different USB cables. And they look soldered on alright, but I mean, maybe it's as simple as that? And the USB cable's pretty much as plugged in as it can get. Good suggestions though
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2012-07-22 16:39
    Just a thought...
    What about going into Control Panel and Device Manager and deleting the USB FTDI device (I am not on XP so cannot recall exactly the steps involved, but you want to remove the USB COM connection for the FTDI chip). After restarting XP, try pluggin in again and load the new drivers.
    Another possibility is to delete and reload PropTool (make sure you save any of your prop files).
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2012-07-22 17:40
    Echoing Cluso, I'd uninstall, restart Windows, and reinstall. You want to see that Found New Hardware prompt, and watch as Windows installs the new driver.

    Just as a note, when trying different cables, it helps to make sure the cables work on something else. If you've got other non-Prop hardware to test your cables on use that method as a sanity check. (Somehow I don't think this is your issue, as you apparently can use the system/cable with a RevA board, but not a RevB board.)

    Finally, and I don't know if this is your issue or a wild goose chase, but if the COM port comes up >10, try to reassign it to a number less than 10. On XP this can be an issue sometimes. I don't have it on my XP boxes, but I know others do (using other MCUs, mind you).

    -- Gordon
  • TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
    edited 2012-07-22 19:15
    GordonMcComb wrote: »
    Echoing Cluso, I'd uninstall, restart Windows, and reinstall. You want to see that Found New Hardware prompt, and watch as Windows installs the new driver.

    Just as a note, when trying different cables, it helps to make sure the cables work on something else. If you've got other non-Prop hardware to test your cables on use that method as a sanity check. (Somehow I don't think this is your issue, as you apparently can use the system/cable with a RevA board, but not a RevB board.)

    Finally, and I don't know if this is your issue or a wild goose chase, but if the COM port comes up >10, try to reassign it to a number less than 10. On XP this can be an issue sometimes. I don't have it on my XP boxes, but I know others do (using other MCUs, mind you).

    -- Gordon

    We'll have to try that re: Cluso. As I'm currently at work, I can't try that - but I'll let you guys know. And in terms of the cables, I think I've been able to use it on my digital cameras just fine. And the com ports that come up whenever I plug anything in have been 5, 7, and 9. :\ Thanks again for the suggestions.
  • frank freedmanfrank freedman Posts: 1,983
    edited 2012-07-23 19:56
    If you suspect connection issues, you could also try reflow with an air rework station if you have access to one. Just watch the the temp (to avoid scorching anything) and airflow (too much tip pressure can dislodge smd parts). Easier than soldering iron, sparkfun has some low cost bottom feeders that are affordable to a bit better without totally crushing the budget.

    Also, you could try The prop on a linux box with bst installed. Known to work on many, I have used FC15 and FC16.

    Speaking of SMT, you can get some lower cost surgical loupes on ebay if you are careful. A bit odd to get used to working about 12-18 inches away from the piece, but it beats trying to cram your iron under a desk magnifier. They are excellent for inspection work as well. I got mine from a dentist, 2.5X, about $50.00 USD
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,826
    edited 2012-07-24 03:39
    Are we still trying to troubleshoot this? I thought Tymkrs was getting a replacement by now...

    Anyway, one other trick that I've seen find bad connections is to push down hard on the part.
    So, maybe push down hard on the USB connector while connecting it to the computer and see if it recognizes it.
    Then, maybe try this on the FTDI chip too...
  • TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
    edited 2012-07-24 04:40
    Rayman wrote: »
    Are we still trying to troubleshoot this? I thought Tymkrs was getting a replacement by now...

    Anyway, one other trick that I've seen find bad connections is to push down hard on the part.
    So, maybe push down hard on the USB connector while connecting it to the computer and see if it recognizes it.
    Then, maybe try this on the FTDI chip too...

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?141362-Issue-with-PropBOE&p=1112627&viewfull=1#post1112627 The second one sent to me also exhibited problems on my machine.

    Oh and I just pushed down hard on the USB connector and FTDI chip, no luck.
  • UnsoundcodeUnsoundcode Posts: 1,532
    edited 2012-07-24 05:12
    Here are three links you may not have seen, resolved with two different methods None are marked as resolved but I believe the problem in each case was solved. Anyway worth checking out.

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?139821-PropBOE-USB-Connection-Not-Working

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?139525-FTDI-Driver-problems-with-Windows-7-64-bit

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?140300-Windows-7-Propeller-BOE-FTDI-COM-Troubles

    Jeff T.
  • TymkrsTymkrs Posts: 539
    edited 2012-07-24 05:37
    Thanks Jeff/Unsoundcode for the links. So it seems with many of the folks chiming in, that USB3.0 is not the way to go for the PropBOE. We don't have any USB3.0 ports here, so that wouldn't be the cause for us. And it also seems based on JohnR's post:

    "The PropBOE (the production version, not the first lot from way back when), are the only Parallax product (so far) to have the FTDI chip programmed to ask for the full 500 mAmps of power that "may" be available on a USB Port. All other Parallax products are programmed to ask for 90 mAmps.

    The solution involves getting the FT_PROG utility, available here: http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Utilities.htm#FT_ProgYou can then re-program the FTDI chip to only ask for 90 mAmps (or whatever value you choose).

    The setting that needs to be changed is the "Max Bus Power" setting in the "USB Config Descriptor" section.

    This has worked for my oldie but goodie ports on the 4-H computers. Again, I don't know if the same solution will work on the USB3 Port issues. You should also be aware of the following bullet points:
    • The PropBOE has over current protection on the USB power. This is fixed at just under 500 mAmps by a resistor value. As a result, it is entirely possible that you could over draw the setting (i.e. the 90 mAmps) and have the USB port shut down. In order to prevent this, you will need to do one of the following:
      • Preferably, provide external power (via the barrel jack) to the PropBOE.
      • Alternately, make sure the PropBOE does not require more current than your setting.
    • You need to be able to successfully connect to the PropBOE in order to use the FT_PROG utility. The utility uses the virtual serial port to enumerate and program the chip, so if the connection fails at the Windows level, you're out of luck."
    So I guess I'd have to hook them onto the Windows 7 netbook. Use FT_PROG and change the Max Bus Power setting. The one thing that I wonder though, is even when I connected a wallwart to the PropBOEs, they still malfunctioned. I'd think if lack of power was the issue, the wall wart would have saved that...

    Thanks mucho for the suggestions.
  • UnsoundcodeUnsoundcode Posts: 1,532
    edited 2012-07-24 06:54
    Hi, the 90mA or whatever is a restriction on the USB bus set by the FTDI chip and has no relationship to the Props power supply.

    Although John never nailed it to a specific his post was interesting in the information he provided. His solution differed from the other two in the fact it did not seem to be USB 3 related.

    It is certainly not going to harm anything to get the USB view utility and compare the information of your PropBOE's FTDI to one that works. It's also not difficult to suck the info from a FTDI that works and plant it in the one that does not. It would also be good to change one parameter at a time just in case one was fortunate enough to hit on a configuration problem.

    Jeff T.
  • Don MDon M Posts: 1,653
    edited 2012-07-24 07:02
    Tymkrs wrote: »
    The one thing that I wonder though, is even when I connected a wallwart to the PropBOEs, they still malfunctioned. I'd think if lack of power was the issue, the wall wart would have saved that...

    Think of it more as "reserving" the 500mA. If the port doesn't like the idea of providing that much then it evidently fails to enumerate. As I read this, the fact that you can maybe "fool" the port into telling it that you only want x amount of power then it may work. Whether there is a walwart plugged in or not doesn't affect the "request" to the USB port of how much power it may need.

    At least that is the way I understand this conversation....
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