Shop OBEX P1 Docs P2 Docs Learn Events
Choosing a PCB package? — Parallax Forums

Choosing a PCB package?

rwgast_logicdesignrwgast_logicdesign Posts: 1,464
edited 2012-05-29 11:54 in General Discussion
So Im at the point where not knowing a PCB cad program is holding me back from getting my goals acomplished. I need to use the package to make DIY double sided boards for prototyping and also to make boards from 2 to 4 layers to send in and have professional batches done. I would like the program to be compatible with windows and linux(via wine is ok). There is just so much to choose from. Everyone uses Eagle but everywhere I turn everyone says eagle is junk they just use it becuase its popular. Ive been looking at KiCad, Altium, OrCad and Eagle. Alot of people seem to like dip trace alot too, and someone mentiond allegro. I tried KiCad schematic editor and wasnt very impressed the one in express pcb is much better in my opinion. I know express will run in linux under wine, is its board creator usable for professional manufactured boards? Theres just so many choices and I have so much to get done I dont want to waste a ton of time learning the CAD software, I just wanna learn one CAD package that does what I need is easy and has good foot print libraries.

Comments

  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-05-27 20:53
    A while back someone at Parallax recommended DipTrace. I had used Eagle a little but I didn't like it much. I found DipTrace a lot easier to use.

    I'm very glad I've switch from Eagle to Diptrace.

    Here are a few of my first attempts at designing a PCB.

    You can't do four layer boards with the free version of DipTrace though. I'm not sure if Eagle's free version will do four layers either.

    I'm pretty sure PCB Express does not export gerber files.
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2012-05-27 21:03
    I've been using Diptrace and it seems to work pretty well. It's very easy to create new parts. The last time I used Eagle was several years ago. It had a horrible user interface, as if it was designed by someone from another planet where they had never heard of "Windows". Doesn't Express PCB use some kind of proprietary file format?
  • xanaduxanadu Posts: 3,347
    edited 2012-05-27 21:24
    I have used http://www.freepcb.com/home.html since it wasn't mentioned I thought I'd throw it in. Exports extended Gerber and has a nice built in library. They also ship microwave popcorn and cool drink coasters with each order, if that kind of stuff is important to you lol.
  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,091
    edited 2012-05-27 21:36
    My only experience has been with the Diptrace product, so I can't offer you an expert comparisons.

    What I can tell you is that I've gone from zero to producing boards within a few months. Diptrace is easy to understand and fast.

    The only downside I've encountered with Diptrace is that there have been times when the "part" I need simply isn't in the library and has to be created.

    OBC
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2012-05-27 23:26
    I have used Diptrace and ExpressPCB and tried several packages including KiCad, Orcad, and Eagle. ExpressPCB and Diptrace were much easier to learn and use than the others and since I get most of my boards from ExpressPCB I use that most of the time, and Diptrace ocassionally.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-05-28 01:32
    I've used Pulsonix for years:

    http://www.pulsonix.co.uk

    It's the easiest to use of the mid-range packages.
  • TonyDTonyD Posts: 210
    edited 2012-05-28 04:12
    Have you looked at DesignSpark PCB?

    http://www.designspark.com/pcb

    It's not open-source but its free and has none of the limitations that the free versions of EagleCAD and DipTrace have. Is done by the same people who do ExpressPCB.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-05-28 06:04
    DesignSpark is actually a reduced feature version of Number One Systems EasyPC. I used EasyPC for about 15 years, until Pulsonix was developed. DesignSpark, EasyPC and Pulsonix are all produced by the same parent company, WestDev.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-05-28 06:47
    Duane Degn wrote: »
    A while back someone at Parallax recommended DipTrace.

    I found the thread where the switch to DipTrace was discussed. There's a lot of information about PCB software on that thread.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2012-05-28 16:03
    TonyD wrote: »
    Have you looked at DesignSpark PCB?

    http://www.designspark.com/pcb

    It's not open-source but its free and has none of the limitations that the free versions of EagleCAD and DipTrace have. Is done by the same people who do ExpressPCB.

    Thanks for the link. I am downloading it now to try it out.
  • rwgast_logicdesignrwgast_logicdesign Posts: 1,464
    edited 2012-05-28 22:19
    Hmm well thanks for the input, I tried diptrace I like it a whole lot compared to the other packages Ive worked with so far!! the only problem is the limitations on the free version and payed versions arent compatible with my needs, and i cant afford 675 bucks right now :/, unfourtantely I have access to some payed programs like OrCad and Altium, maybe eagle but not dip trace or pulsonix..

    I acually do have a copy of altium at my disposal and I havent even looked at it, does anyone know how it stacks up espescially against diptrace. Right now Im thinking im gonna have to settle with KiCad since its the only thing I have access to without limitations that seems reasonably easy to get up to speed with and has a good community. I forgot all about altium designer but like I said i just wanna learn one program and get off and running, sooo for those of you with some experince with altium diptrace and kicad maybe how do they stack up?
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-05-28 23:52
    rwgast_logicdesign wrote: »
    i cant afford 675 bucks right now
    Would you really need the full version? I wanted to make a four layer board so I purchased the "Standard" version for $345 which is still a lot of money but I don't see needing to upgrade past the Standard version myself.

    You mentioned having access to Altium. FYI, Parallax uses Altium, I think it's their education department that uses DipTrace. One reason Parallax likes DipTrace is because the import and export DipTrace files with Altium.
  • rwgast_logicdesignrwgast_logicdesign Posts: 1,464
    edited 2012-05-29 00:40
    well heres my deal with the dip trace limatations, u would think someone as green as me wouldnt need more than 300 or 500 pins, wich is acuallyy true. i could most likely get away with 300 pins for most anything i want to design. which is nice becuase if im doing open source projects anyone can use the design files for free, which is my major draw to kicad.

    the issue that concerns me at this point in time is the signal layers. its kind of confusing i want to spin some audio boards. the site says u get unlimited power and ground planes. if i need planes for two audio channels a voltage + a voltage - ground and maybe a genral plain thats 6 layers, are 3 of them free and the other 3 considered signal planes? this means i would need the four signal layer liscence? id probably need the 2000 pin 6 layer version for future projects in reality, just for the pin count especially if u wanna throw an arm cpu in there.
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2012-05-29 04:56
    I think you are probably vastly over-estimating your needs. Multilayer boards are not that common and are usually avoided unless absolutely necessary due to the increased cost. Audio signals do not need a separate layer. Neither does every different voltage require its own layer. If you ever get to a point where you are actually manufacturing boards that require more than two layers, then the cost to upgrade should not be an issue no matter which package you choose.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-05-29 10:24
    rwgast_logicdesign wrote: »
    the issue that concerns me at this point in time is the signal layers. its kind of confusing i want to spin some audio boards. the site says u get unlimited power and ground planes. if i need planes for two audio channels a voltage + a voltage - ground and maybe a genral plain thats 6 layers, are 3 of them free and the other 3 considered signal planes? this means i would need the four signal layer liscence? id probably need the 2000 pin 6 layer version for future projects in reality, just for the pin count especially if u wanna throw an arm cpu in there.

    I don't know of a PCB that uses more than four layers. The Parallax Laser Range Finder is a four layer board and I believe the PropBOE is a four layer board but most other boards made by/for Parallax are two layer boards.

    I also have very limited PCB making experience but I haven't even seen a fab house that offers more than four layers (though I haven't looked very hard for one).

    I think Rick makes a lot of good points.
    RDL2004 wrote: »
    I think you are probably vastly over-estimating your needs. Multilayer boards are not that common and are usually avoided unless absolutely necessary due to the increased cost. Audio signals do not need a separate layer. Neither does every different voltage require its own layer. If you ever get to a point where you are actually manufacturing boards that require more than two layers, then the cost to upgrade should not be an issue no matter which package you choose.

    The only thing I don't agree with is the cost issue of more than two layers. While the prices I've seen for four layer boards are between 5 to 7 times the cost of a two layer board, if you're making a really small board, the cost of a four layer board isn't so bad. Several of the hobby PCB fab houses make four layer boards. I have a few four layer boards I plan to submit to a fab house soon myself.

    I suppose it wont take long for the extra cost of the four layer boards to exceed the price I paid to upgrade DipTrace so Rick is probably right about the upgrade price not being an issue compared with the cost of making four layer boards. Still the extra $200 upgrade price was/is a bit painful.

    You certainly have other choices than DipTrace but I don't think you should be basing your decision on whether of not to use DipTrace on the price of the full version when it's very unlikely you'd really need it.

    BTW, you can always upgrade from one DipTrace version to another by paying the difference in price between the two versions. It doesn't cost more to if you start with the less expensive versions and then upgrade to higher versions than it does to start out with the more expensive version.
  • davejamesdavejames Posts: 4,047
    edited 2012-05-29 10:47
    Duane Degn wrote: »
    I don't know of a PCB that uses more than four layers.

    Dude - try 24 layers. That was one of our digital instruments for automated test. In ATE, >8 layers is very very common.

    But maybe you were referencing the hobby/home market.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-05-29 11:11
    Formula One cars typically use 32-layer boards.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-05-29 11:19
    davejames wrote: »
    Dude - try 24 layers. That was one of our digital instruments for automated test. In ATE, >8 layers is very very common.

    But maybe you were referencing the hobby/home market.

    I was referencing what I had seen here on the forum (and remembered seeing).

    Does ATE stand for Automated Test Equipment? I'm guessing the extra (bad word choice but I couldn't think of a better word) layers are ground/power planes to limit noise issues?

    Do you know if more than 4 layers is common in other fields? I just don't remember seeing anything but two layer boards posted to the forum. Though I suppose most of the PCBs I've seen on the forum are hobby boards.

    Thanks for the information.
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2012-05-29 11:22
    I'm sure there are niche markets where any number of layers are normal. I don't really know how to find out without purchasing some kind of market research, but I'd think that a large majority of consumer electrical and electronics boards are 2 layer. Also, after reading Diptrace's pricing, it actually looks like even the basic versions get you at least 4 layers assuming 2 of them are simple ground and power planes.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2012-05-29 11:22
    I've been eyeing DipTrace since Parallax had promoted it, but haven't jumped yet due to time constraints. Most of my projects work with Eagle Lite, so I'm guessing the DipTrace Lite version ($145) will be adequate. Maybe even the Starter version. Since you can upgrade by only paying the difference it seems like a good way to go. Start small, or work your way up.

    Anyone with the two lowest-end versions, and if so, any comments on their usability?

    -- Gordon
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-05-29 11:45
    GordonMcComb wrote: »
    Anyone with the two lowest-end versions, and if so, any comments on their usability?
    The "Starter" version is the same as the free version. You're just not supposed to use it for free if it's not for hobby (personal) use.

    I used the Starter version for a while. The first time I had an issue with it was when I wanted to panalize a small PCB to use a 5cm x 5cm board. By copying the layout multiple times, I quickly ran out of pins.

    I believe the less expensive versions are the same as the more expensive versions except for the number of pins that can be used and the number of signal layers.

    I know I've already mentioned it, but I really like DipTrace much more than Eagle. I think Parallax made a good choice in switching to DipTrace.
  • davejamesdavejames Posts: 4,047
    edited 2012-05-29 11:54
    Duane Degn wrote: »
    Does ATE stand for Automated Test Equipment?

    Yup!
Sign In or Register to comment.