glue and printer heads for a 3D printer any ideals?
codeviper
Posts: 208
ok, I am thinking of making a 3D printer. the concept is a powder like fine baking soda or the like, and a 2 part epoky with very low vicosity passing out a inkjet head.
i have seen a similar project but using a wood filler powder and water in the head. is there any glues you guys know of that are thin enough and individual parts are easy to remove with solvents?
i have seen a similar project but using a wood filler powder and water in the head. is there any glues you guys know of that are thin enough and individual parts are easy to remove with solvents?
Comments
I'm not sure about the 'remove with solvents' bit. While you can dissolve epoxy with solvents it takes some time. You might want to opt for a disposable mixer part. Perhaps this too can be 3d printed, so with each print run you print a mixing nozzle for the next run
A lot can be learned from the epoxy glue packs at the hardware store - they have those vortex mixers that are disposable. It should be possible to do exactly the same thing. In face you could start by actually using those glue packs and squeezing the plungers to start printing.
Teflon and polypropylene may be materials the epoxy doesn't stick to much, but I think no matter what you end up with some glue mixed internally in the mixing nozzle, unless you have some kind of purge arrangement.
the ideal i have is write a QB64 program to print pages of a 3D object.
concept
open up a printer.
use paper feed motor to drive the y axis.
add in a bypass to return y axis to start between prints and raise the z axis.
and a swiper/shaker to spread more of a powder on each layer.
repeat.
i have for years mixed superglue and baking soda, it forms a super hard material and the reaction even makes heat wich i feel lends to the strength of the final material.
i thought if i could print this mix in layers it could make hard tough structures add in fibers to the powder and it may become even stronger.
rip-rap is good i know, but id like to see an accurate and cheap alternative to the powder based printers used in industry.
wich i feel gives some advantages over extruded plastics.
You could keep the epoxy parts separate. Part A in the black cartridge and Part B in the color cartridge, eject 2 pl of each onto the same dot and see what happens. Perhaps the powder fizz will help them to mix. Perhaps you can print an entire line or layer of 'A' before going back over with 'B'.
Superglue has a similar 'activator' that may work in the same manner.
I can't imagine it being easier/cheaper overall to modify an off the shelf printer rather than start with a reprap frame.
Interestingly my first 3D printer is costing me much less than my first laser printer (HP 4L, aud$1190 about 1990)
What do you see as the main advantages of powder base? Overhangs?
the disadvantages: little support, perhaps more cost for other material choices.
i hope to put in a color cartridge say epoxy part 1 in the old red tank epoxy part two in the old blue tank, and a dye in the yellow tank.
i think the route i may try is make a rep-rap like frame but with the printers motor control for head posistion running the X axis, and the paper feed running the y axis foward like it does on the paper. this will limit me to the X and Y of the largest paper size the printer i gutted supported.
when one layer is printed the printer has certain motions it does a MCU will watch for that state and bypass the printers control of the feed motor and return the Y axis to the start, and increment the motor for the Z axis. the program doing the printing will wait for a command from the MCE over a virtual com port that this is complete then it will send off the next page to be printed.
the best part in my mind is if i put a cartridge with just ink and turn off the Z axis it will be a flatbed printer.
there is a youtube video that inspired me but it featured just ink and a homemade flatbed printer printing onto a powdered wood filler. the results were great, but alas the poster has apparently stopped his work. i think his printer was also propeller powered too.
the mix i use a baking soda and superglue is pretty strong and can be sanded and painted but super glue dries TOO FAST to be used in an inkjet head even if it didn't destroy the insides of the cartridge. i had glasses that broke and i used that mix to hold them together
I think you are going overkill for a first attempt.
I had a chance to see up close and talk to the operator for a few hours of a 3D printer at a professional fair.
It worked on plaster of paris and water.
It was hideously slow (think 2,000 pages at 3 minutes per page) but it worked and while I watched turned out a ball bearing complete w balls, and two races. Rough surface, but it was correct, and all the parts moved.
You'll have enough trouble just trying to get water (distilled if you're smart) to go through the print heads and the printing is the EASY part. The slow (and VERY custom made) part of the one I examined was getting the powder smoothly spread in a sufficiently thin layer - tricky.
Oh, yes, just remembered: While the hardware to handle the powder was custom and tricky it could have been made in an enthusiast's garage. The SOFTWARE was proprietary and seemed to be pretty darn sophisticated. Taking a 3D image and changing it to a few thousand flat contours is bad enough, but I got the impression from the operator that actually specifying the 3D object you wanted in the first place was a pretty good PITA.
Have fun.
West System sells all sorts of epoxies - some are low viscosity. And they also sell a large array of fillers that have been proved. Their fillers are proved in terms of compatiblity and clealiness.
So it may be a good "one stop" shopping experience to use them. Your printer head would require three feed holes and you would have to develop appropriate methodology to feed each of the three elements - the Epoxy A, the Epoxy B, and the filler.
Many 3D printers are using thermoplastic and feed a coil of it through a heated head. One advantage is that the feed can actually reverse direction when the print head wants to jump to a new location. Dribbles and drools are otherwise a big problem.
Another approach is to spread just the A and B epoxy with the print head and then have the whole print area dusted with the filler. Eventually you have what appears to be a box of filler, but with a little digging, you find your completed part.
These days, silicon is set with acetic acid (think vinegar) and those two components might work in some contexts.
I think the glue is not bicomponent. The obtained models are not so sturdy.
It is a variant of the SLS approach.
Check shapeways.com
They sell 3d printed model using a huge variety of printers, so they have a side by side description of the different systems.
Massimo
3D printing tends to be proto-typical - whilst CNC milling and lathe work offers direct final product.
I tend to prefer the latter approach. One can always machine polypropelene, aluminum, or brass if the product doesn't require great strength.
Or if wax is too running, how about hot melt glue, or something else cheap?
The main ideal is a loose powder and the binding agent with a thermal transition from liquid to solid.
Don't take this the wrong way but I feel the need to point this out;
ideal |īˈdē(ə)l|
adjective: satisfying one's conception of what is perfect; most suitable: the swimming pool is ideal for a quick dip
idea |īˈdēə|
noun: a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action: they don't think it's a very good idea. a concept or mental impression: our menu list will give you some idea of how interesting a low-fat diet can be. an opinion or belief: nineteenth-century ideas about drinking.
right now I am currently hitting an old HP printer with a hammer yelling at it to work.
I only intend to get the return and y axis going right now if I do get it working I will update you on this.
just for fun.
Don't take this the wrong way but I feel the need to point this out;
should be
Don't take this the wrong way, but, I feel the need to point this out;
sorry could not resist, right now in college English teachers will not even let you use conjunctions so......
Do not take this the wrong way, but, I feel the need to point this out;
just messing please don't take it hard, I do try my best, but, I have personal issues that makes certain things difficult. If you know me long enough you may get to know what those problems are.
It's been a long time since I was in an English class, even then I did not do to(o) well. Generally, I think I use too many commas. In this case I used too few.
I've noticed that you have been using the word "ideal" quite frequently when the correct word is "idea". I had a coworker who also used "ideal" instead of "idea" and it drove me nuts. Your name wouldn't happen to be Brian would it?
Please, take this in the friendly manner it is offered.
"Let he who is without grammar flaws cast the first correction."
A conjunction is a joining word: and, but, or, yet, for, nor, so. You used conjunction and then by example removed a contraction when you changed "don't" to "do not".
I think the forum is rather tolerant of English abuse and misuse and will certainly work with anyone in trying to communicate ideas. If you are going to call someone out for usage, grammar, or anything else, please have your facts correct and do it in a way to further clarify communicnation. Don't correct just to correct. The usage of commas is often a case of style for written publication and while the use of the word "ideal" for "idea" is a potential source of misunderstanding.
Rich was just trying to help you with a confusion of the words idea and ideals. A helpful pointer to someone that may or may not be a native speaker of English. On the forum, you never really know someone's native language.
yes, I made a mistake and mixed up contraction and conjunction, sorry.
he called me out on my grammar so I was just playing with him.
plus I already received PM's me about it, and I said, sorry, but when someone else posted in this topic he corrected me again.
Do I have to go back and correct all my posts?
this was only meant as a little joke back.
No harm intended. Sorry if I caused you grief.
I am of the school where effective communication is possibly the most imiportant skill one can learn since it is transferrable to any vocation or activity you might pursue.
I stumble along at times, but I try very hard to be understood.
I still have a hammer looming over an old printer whispering "WORK DARN YOU"
am I the only one who does that?
But, really what I plan to try first is plaster of Paris maybe.
oh and sorry bout the PM bout this. I receive so many corrections, and really I just am so busy with school and work I do this cause I enjoy it.
I don't think using the wrong word is a "grammar" issue. I looked up the word "grammar" just to be sure but the definition is not very clear to me. I almost never correct anyone's grammar because my own leaves something to be desired.
Ewe no watt eye meme?
Correcting all your old posts is certainly not necessary. I think it is possible to edit the title of this thread though.
I have been corrected on it by teachers in the past, and I take it well.
"I haven't got no idea what your talking about," is a grammatical issue (double negative and "your" when "you're" was intended).
"I have no idear what yer talking about," is a spelling issue ("idear" and "yer" -- both non-words -- for "idea" and "you're"), or it could be a colloquialism if done intentionally.
"I have no idea, what you're talking about," is a punctuation issue (comma where it doesn't belong).
"I have no ideal what you're talking about," is a usage issue (choosing a real word with the wrong meaning).
"I have no idea what you're talkign about," is a typo.
"I have no idea what you're talkin' 'bout," is an obviously-intended colloquialism, due to the inclusion of apostrophes.
"i have no idea what you're talking about," is a capitalization issue.
"I have not the slightest idea regarding the topic of which you speak," is a stylistic issue, betraying an arrogant or stilted demeanor.
"i hv no id wat ur talkn bout," is a text-speak issue that should be killed in its crib.
"I don't care what you say. Your opinion sucks," is an etiquette issue.
"ialkjd hhjth wiout vbt," is a substance-abuse issue.
"I evah on ieda waht yo'ure talking abuot," is a dyslexia issue.
"I, uh," is a writer's block issue.
"i haz no ideaz, jus want shrimpz," is a web meme issue that's okay when written by a cat.
"I have no idea what you're balking a tout," is a Spoonerism.
"I have no idea what you're talking aboot, eh," is a pathetic attempt to sound Canadian.
-Phil
Classic PhiPi brilliance. I'm going to print this out for my cubicle wall if you grant permission.
Your plans for text-speak I support 100%.
Your "substance abuse issue" made me spray Diet Pepsi all over my laptop!
Close but not quite. "But" is a coordinating conjunction, not a parenthetical phrase or enumeration. Informally you can write
Don't take this the wrong way but I feel the need to point this out
if the two clauses are short and balanced, which in this case they are. Or you can separate the clauses with a comma for more formal settings:
Don't take this the wrong way, but I feel the need to point this out
Adding a parenthetical element to the "but" involves an intervening comma:
Don't take this the wrong way, but frankly, I feel the need to point this out
See a page like http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm for more detail. Probably more than you wanted, but it clarifies the use of commas for most applications.
On idea/ideal: Many places in the UK pronounce "idea" as "idear." Oh, those wacky Brits!
-- Gordon
(It's is a contraction of "it is", its is a 'possessive' or whatever. Also, punctuation... )
I still have a hammer looming over an old printer, whispering "Work, darn you."
(Punctuation... Also, you never whisper in CAPITAL letters. And again, punctuation... )
Sorry, just couldn't help myself... ;-)
If that old printer is a HP model, be careful as hitting it with a hammer might damage your hammer.
(Needs to be a really old HP model, though. More recent models you need to watch out for plastic shrapnel)
Anyway, I really want to see you succeed with a powder-based 3D-printer.
(They allow designs that are impossible on the normal extruder-based systems)
In that case, have you tried choosing any word, and repeating it until you forget what it means? It only takes a few minutes, I was surprised to learn. I've resistant to TLA's and FTLA's ever since. (Don't do this at work, it can be mistaken for substance abuse or stroke, says the voice of experience).
I can't speak for the title of the thread, but in my case, I simply don't care about grammar and spelling, if the thought is sufficiently conveyed. Language is NOT what somebody SAYS it is, it what everybody says. This is an important point that is often missed. We can resist changes like "text speak" but once they are used, they are part of the language, and one can't put the genie back in the bottle.
I haven't been able to find that ceramic furnace adhesive use to make the printer hot end. I want a separate hot end for the wax and hot glue experiments, as I don't want to gunk up my working Prusa. Anybody know where to find this stuff?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Let he who is without grammar flaws cast the first correction."
That says it all. Have any of you read a copy of "Eats, shoots, and leaves"? Or is that titled "Eats shoots and leaves". It is a rather amusing book about how to properly punctuate. Chinese only recently has adopted punctuation. One is just supposed to decipher phrasing and meaning without it.
Other items - idea versus ideal - come under the "s**t happens' keyboard phenomena. I can not for the life of me understand why I recently wrote "a dearth of information" when I meant "a wealth of information". But we all have fingers that sometimes don't land where they are suppose to.
The past 19 years of my life has been very linguistic as a teacher of English as a Second Language and though I finally developed a very precise understanding of English grammar, nobody really cares. And to make matters worse, Chinese grammar is a very different framework.
Successful communication is somewhat a mysterious blend. We all tolerate and filter mistakes or negotiate to get the meaning. If anything, the computer age and the Internet have made it all less standard, more off the cuff.
I just wish I didn't have to go back and correct so much -- but I figure that being an English teacher holds me to a higher standard. Yech.
BTW, the comma is the most disputed punctuation of all. Some people over use it, others under use it, nobody really uses it in exactly the same way. And the Chinese tend to use it as a period, while their use of the period is more like the end of a paragraph (unless are trying to ape English usage).
I suppose all these gems will kill the thread. ;-)
I ɥɐʌǝ uo ıpǝɐ ʍɥɐʇ ʎon ɐɹǝ ʇɐlʞıuƃ ɐqonʇ
They do make a fire proofing clay.. Firestop Putty
But, I have no idea if that is what you would need in this case...
works great, I have hit this with a very hot torch, just to see what would happen,
And, well, nothing happened, just a tiny bit of char, and not any mark at all on the Cardboard behind it..
-Tommy
-Phil