Propeller or Arduino ?
KidE
Posts: 29
Hi All,
I've sold my Basic Stamp stuff and now looking for the next step.
The Propeller is an obvious candidate, but so is the Arduino platform.
What would be a wise choise and why. Why does the Propeller excell above the Arduino or vice versa.
I would love tp hear your oppinion
Ernst
I've sold my Basic Stamp stuff and now looking for the next step.
The Propeller is an obvious candidate, but so is the Arduino platform.
What would be a wise choise and why. Why does the Propeller excell above the Arduino or vice versa.
I would love tp hear your oppinion
Ernst
Comments
Here are a few clues --
Different Hardware features
The Propeller provides VGA or NTSC and PAL color. The Arduino will NOT provide color and is rather more invovled to deploy in a video context.
The Arduino chips can offer built-in ADC and built-in RTC features that are handy in some cases.
Different Software features
Arduino offers a program language that is for 'artists' - you may do far better using the same chips deployed with the ZBASIC interpreter. But there are a lot of people that love Arduino's programing jargon. Try www.zbasic.net
I have never programed an Arduino as the language is not my cup of tea.
SPIN is also an unusual language as it had to be for the very unusual Propeller - but it is based on traditional programing rather than on becoming an 'artist'.
My personal preferences are to use the Propeller and the ZBasic stamp clones. Arduino has not yet entered my world.
Arduino offers programming in C++. It's the same GCC compiler as used for C/C++ in propgcc. The Arduino guys have done a great (and/or weird) job of hiding this fact by never actually calling it GCC or C or C++. Also they have done a great job of NOT documenting a lot of C++ features that would fuse the brains of beginners and "artists" keeping it as simple as possible. Also they have provided a lot of easy to use libraries and a very simple IDE to tie it all together.
The Prop now also has GCC in the propgcc C/C++ compiler and Jazzed has created a very easy to use IDE to go with it SimpleIDE (Side).
Now, programming in C on the Prop has it's disadvantages over Spin because it takes up more space in HUB for the same functionality. But then I guess Arduino's don't have so much room either. Do idea never looked at one.
For me, I want to use the Prop for it's multi-processing goodness when dealing with hardware devices. The fact that you can mix and match Spin code objects to your hearts content without worrying about timing is a godsend. For the big code in C/C++ or whatever I want an attached ARM processor that can easily deal with file systems, networking, WIFI etc etc. Can't wait for a RAspberry Pi board but my IGEP ISEE or Beagle or Panda will do for now.
The ATmega328 used on most Arduino boards has 32k of flash memory and 2k of SRAM. It would be difficult to run out of memory.
The Arduino doesn't need to be programmed in assembler for maximum performance, unlike the Propeller.
A vast number of shields - add-on boards - are available, for virtually any application. They typically come with software, which makes them very easy to use.
Support via the Arduino forums is very good.
There are even 32-bit versions of the Arduino, such as the ChipKit. They use the PIC32 and can offer more performance than the Propeller in many applications.
Why not buy both? The Arduino is very cheap.
BTW a year and a half ago I was asking myself the same question and went the both route. In the end I dug out some of my BS2 gear as well because there's so much PBASIC sample code around that it remains a quick way to get stuff done.
Did you pose your question over at the arduino forum?
Note:
1 guy had the audacity, on the Parallax Forum, to actually affirm the product, everyone else is either on the fence or boosting arduino.
Simply amazing.
* of the objects i find on the <obex> : a simplified list like the arduino may help greatly , i hope one list
* small objects used in parallel make programs clear and easy to manage without interrupts
* all the help on this Forums
But use also the arduino sometimes:
* to write quickly a small program : it is cheap and easy
* using the exemples available on the net : they are lots of very well documented ones (with details , videos ...)
* pins available for analog data input : not on most of the propeller boards
* using Processing on my PC : the same language , nice to get data from the Arduino or the Propeller and draw curves
The "answer" remains the same: (1) What do you want to do? and (2) which micro can do it most efficiently? (You'll need to define "efficiently" for yourself.)
As has been mentioned, it will probably be worth your while to get both kits, and play -- err, experiment -- with them both; get a feel for their capabilities and limitations, and see how you like the IDEs.
I've got a LOAD of micros, going back to the Z-80/8085, and I've played with them all. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and some -- like the COP-8 chip -- have more weaknesses than strengths!
--Rich
The Arduino is for "artists" and girly-girls.
Use a Propeller. It will put hair on your chest.
For sheer programming pleasure, I'd never pick up an Arduino or a PC. Propeller all the way for me! With 8 32-bit cores, I find I can implement functions that are normally the domain of ASICs and FPGAs (like OFDM). It would be a joke to attempt such tasks using a single-core Arduino.
I like the AVR hardware - dislike the rather distorted reality of the community. On the other hand, I do like the distorted reality of the Parallax Forum. (As I mentioned, this question never gets answered. But I suspect having some idea of key hardware abilites is a big pointer toward one or the other.)
The fact that it is supposed to be a disguised form of C++ makes me wonder even more about what Arduino is doing. Welcome into the Propeller's Lion's Den.
You can have RTCs and ADC with the Propeller, these features just require a different approach - there is a great deal of pro and con between the different ways to achieve these things.
Using BOTH the Propller and AVR will certainly offer you better insight - we can't justify which is superior without experience and specific context.
Girly versus hair on the chest is just so 'pre-millenium'; Parallax welcomes users of all genders.
Hello Ernst,
Use the Propeller, for certain. I'll provide a couple of reasons to get you started (in no particular order):
- The Propeller provides a solution for your first goals, plus an important bridge from hobby/education to industry. An investment now supports a future product idea.
- Forum Support. The forum members here are tremendously valuable. They have experience in areas well beyond programming (science, entertainment, robotics, industrial control, machine control, etc.).
- Company support. Parallax is a company, and you can get immediate service, returns, free tech support quite often (go ahead and call Nick or Kevin at 916 624 8333 and ask them the same question).
- 8 cores. Programming a Propeller lets you conveniently compartmentalize your code in objects and cogs. In my view, this results in much easier programming. If you've ever needed to time-slice a single-threaded processor and "try to do it all" this will be invaluable.
- Capability. The Propeller makes it very easy to drive VGA/TV displays (ever use a parallel LCD with your BASIC Stamp?), to read/write to SD cards, to do speech synthesis. So much of this is done at a high level, quite easily.
- http://learn.parallax.com/ An investment in a Parallax product is an investment in one's self. We're providing a growing set of educational tutorials. In fact, you can even program Arduinos from our resources now.
- Language familiarity. Program the Propeller in C (our C compiler is going to beta as soon as we can prepare the site), Spin, ASM, BASIC, or whatever else you want. If you want the Arduino form factor, Martin Hodge's ASC is the perfect choice - you'll have a Propeller in Arduino format.
- The Next Step. Read the first sentence in the description for this book http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920022909.do
Did I mention Propeller 2? What about the fact there's really no risk? If you aren't happy, we'll do a total refund! Parallax has been in this business for 22 years and our commitment to learning will always be strong.Sincerely,
Ken Gracey
For me the multiple cores is the best Propeller feature as they are much easier to use than interrupts. I haven't done anything with video and i'm probably missing out. The money back guarantee is pretty compelling as well.
I bought an Arduino at the Maker Faire Event last year to see what all the fuss was about...
Here's my review..
First of all, yes it does program in C. If you are a C programmer (I'm not) it's probably nice to feel like you know something about the product going in. Parallax and Friends have created a C compiler for the Propeller so this won't be an issue any more.
The IDE that comes with it is slow and cumbersome when compared to the Propeller Tool. Which is really horrible, because the Propeller Tool feels a bit cumbersome at times when compared to the alternative IDE, BST (Brads Spin Tool). When I first opened the package, I attempted to get the thing running under a minimal Linux. No way.. Moving to a Windows box didn't impress me more.
Then I went out the Internet to see all that great documentation that everyone talks about. I found a few good examples at Adafruit, and a reasonable list at the arduino.cc site, but not the overwhelming content everyone speaks of. Propeller content has something in common here, being scattered and hard to find. It's something I hope to help solve in the future. learn.parallax.com is another step to solving this.
Then I started comparing what I could actually DO with my new Arduino.. My Propeller stuff does composite & VGA video. The Arduino does video but not nearly at the color levels and resolutions that I can get from my Prop. My Propeller does spiffy retro sounding audio like the Commodore 64 or Atari produced. The audio examples I've found for the Arduino sound like my old Apple ][ computer speaker.
8 cogs will spoil you to death when you start using them... It's like a smoking habit, there's no going back, and you'll be irritable if you try. Download ready to go objects from OBEX, start them on their own cog, (I like to think of them running on their own processor.) and grab information from them when needed. This alone should be enough of a difference to keep anyone who does their homework buying a Propeller based product over the Arduino.
I honestly gave Arduino a good run, but in the end it's failed to impress me and sits in the box on top of my desk, while two or three Propeller board take turns getting connected near my keyboard. Perhaps I should bring it to the expo and let folks use it for target practice with that Propellerpowered gun.
Take the Propeller in any form over the Arduino.. You won't be sorry you did.
OBC
When you get a Prop chip you get unparalleled support too. The forum the documentation and the example code will get you up and running fast. I speak only from experience.
Thank you all for the thorough answers you have given me. I had much fun reading them and it gave me a clear picture of which way I'll be walking the next few years.
I want to use my uC for a whole bunch of things. All kind of new ideas are popping up every day but they mostly grinded to a halt due to the fact that my Basic Stamp just wasn't fast enough.
I was pretty disappointed about the Stamp to be honest. Its a nice educational device but when your trying to control 4 servo's, parse multiple NMEA strings and do some wireless transmission it dies pretty quickly i noticed ;-)
My enlightment came the moment I saw that the dude who invented the Ardupilot (Auto pilot) 1st started with using the BS2P in 2006 and pretty quickly stopped because there was no more power left. And the code he used was pretty
My main reason now why I would choose a Propeller instead of Arduino.
- Good educational books (Remember I am/was a total n00b in micro-controller programming and electronics so good materials are a must for me
- Forum Support (The thing i noticed about the parallax forum is that even the most experienced members awnser to beginners questions in such a way that itś easy to understand without bragging how fantastic they are)
- Cheap boards http://www.parallax.com/Store/Microcontrollers/PropellerDevelopmentBoards/tabid/514/CategoryID/73/List/0/SortField/0/Level/a/ProductID/675/Default.aspx 25USB a piece is a very warm welcome for me and supplies all my needs (for now)
Hopefully iĺl have my board in 2 weeks and then i can finally start.
Thanks again for all your answers,
Cheers,
Ernst
@xanadu: if < 1Ω
Perhaps a more fair comparison would be SimpleIDE which Jazzed (Steve) put together and can be found in the PropGCC forum. As the Arduino IDE makes getting started with that processor easy, SimpleIDE makes getting started with the Propeller and GCC just as easy, but.... it knocks the stuffing out of the Arduino IDE. Steve has done a tremendous job with it using Qt instead of Java. This means that it's multi-platform, but doesn't run like molasses at the North Pole.
I'm not much of a C programmer, either, but am now exploring thanks to Steve's hard work.
PS: Another benefit of SimpleIDE over the Arduino IDE is that it doesn't open a new instance when you open another file. I hate that about the Arduino IDE.
Bottom line, the simpler the project, the lower the quantity, the shorter the deadline
starting from zero knowledge of the specific Arduino or Propeller worlds, the better
the Arduino approach will fit. It takes longer to be productive on the Propeller, and
this has nothing to do with "artists". Arduino is easier to handle as if you were writing
a simple program for the PC. Once over the hump, it's down to specific requirements.
If you have the time to explore both, then please do, and then you can always pick
the most appropriate one on any given project. Both are inexpensive and great.
Now with Arduino Shield compatible boards like the ASC, and the GCC IDE, it's
going to be a lot easier to start right into the Prop. Great job, Parallax and everybody!!
From a beginners perspective, getting hello world up running and doing some basic stuff the Arduino might be a "better" (faster) choice.
Of course the Arduino will chooke on most things that the Propeller does well. (and IMHO, that's all the fun things)
Then I don't understand why people compares a microcontroller platform to a bare microcontroller? It makes more sense to compare the Arduino to the Propeller Platform or even the PMC.
Posts: 1
Join date: 11-01-12
The smell is unbearable!
LOL
I was late at trying the Arduino, and already using the propeller for a couple of years back then.
About the ease of use at first approach to the platform, I didn't find any significant difference.
The SPIN/PASM vs C advantage/disavantage was not a big factor for me. Despite being mainly a C programmer, I already had some confidence with SPIN. So what I'm talking about is only ease of use of the GUI.
But if you want my personal opinion, don't ever understimate the ability of a microcontroller to run from RAM, like the propeller does.
It has been criticized for lack of embedded debug hardware, but on the other hand maybe never praised enough regarding the ability to test changes just hitting a key and waiting no more than 2 to 5 seconds to go live.
It's a great time saver if your development cycle relies a lot on frequent changes/tests. Money saver too if you're a smoker!
Working with the propeller, I had almost forgot about the hassle of ~30 seconds flash programming.
Or even more, depending on the device... I still have painful memories of a bugged version of Dynamic C for the Rabbit2000 (which was indeed capable of running from RAM up to a certain size, but that capability quickly faded as the project was growing to non-trivial code size).
So that was the thing that annoyed me mostly of the Arduino.
Also, while initially tied with SPIN/PASM, today Propeller gained not one, but many good choices of programming languages and environments.
So overall, like others suggested, try both!
One QuickStart and one Arduino UNO are still going to cost less than any single option available just some years ago.
After you get a taste, both platforms offer much more advanced options of boards and expansion gadgets.
Go for it!! I don't think there's a big Eclipse user group within the Parallaxian Community (I know I have no interest in Eclipse) but the fun of "community" is contributions from the community members!