Hello Bruce and Leon
'
What do think of this porduct?...Have you used it or something similar?
' http://www.mgchemicals.com/downloads/pdf/specsheets/416dfr.pdf?PHPSESSID=a21dd3060783a8513ae7d7bcdc268537
'
This is the product data sheet for the product Bruce posted earlier.$18 bucks for a roll 12" X 60".
'
The maker speaks of NaOH and KOH in the process.I have both.
'
The spray-on stuff looks easier to use,But I can't find a supplier in the US.I'm not really sure whats its called.
Buy the pre-coated boards, if you are just making the occasional board. The spray resist I used to use worked OK, but it was changed and the new stuff didn't work.
I have not used this, but it is a product that I am interested in. Yes, I have used something similar, it is simply a UV sensitive photoimaging film. However, I have only used the positive acting type and this product is negative. The films will output a much better board as compared to spray on photoresist such as Positiv 20, or at least that is what I have read many times.
Referring to the mention of NaOH and KOH in the datasheet, that comes under a subsection of entitle "Stripping". I truly don't know what "Stripping" means, in that context of course
The main areas of concern in the datasheet are Development and Etching.
In fact, I was so interested in this product, at one point I called MG and asked them about a hypothetical process of applying the film.
If you are eager to get your feet wet before I really get the show on the road, try DATAK Premier positive acting boards. You only need a 100 watt light bulb for exposure, drain cleaner for developing, and muratic acid/hydrogen peroxide combination for etching. These boards can be found here http://www.minute-man.com/acatalog/Online_Catalog_Pre_Sensitized_PC_Boards_240.html
Thanks guys...
'
The pretreated boards look like the way to start. $9 bucks for a 4"x 6" double sided pretreated board isn't bad...(I'll start with 2)
'
$9 bucks for 2oz.of positive develper....
'
I have all the rest....I prefer Ferric Chloride over the Muriatic acid/H2O2 mix.
To get your feet wet, that is probably the best way to go. However....
$9 bucks for 2oz.of positive develper
is quite expensive for the amount of developer that you get. That is why people use drain cleaner instead, such as the Rooto that I suggested at this link, http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=4239216. You can find it at your local Ace Hardware for approximately $4.00 for a 1 lb. jar. Although I personally have not tested it yet, there is plenty of documentation about using caustic soda for developing. It will be much more economical and provide you with lots of developer, but of course you would need to experiment with it's mixing and use.
Bruce
@Leon - Okay that makes sense.
EDIT:
I have all the rest....I prefer Ferric Chloride over the Muriatic acid/H2O2 mix.
Pertaining to the issue of Ferric Chloride versus Muriatic Acid, once again it is a matter of economics. The chemicals are expensive for the quantity you receive, but only you can decide what you can afford and feel comfortable with. To me the chemicals are just way too expensive for the quantity received.
If you decide to use the Rooto instead of buying the developer, keep in mind that the "Premier" boards from DATAK do not require full strength developer. Some experimentation will be necessary or simply do the math.
"Premier" board part numbers start with the number 14.
And note that if you were accustomed to using our older systems, you will now mix the developer concentrate ten to one with tap water instead of the older recipe of three to one.
Source: DATAK
Two teaspoons of caustic soda per litre of water is what I use for developing
Okay guys, the PCB cutting machine is pretty much finished, so it is now time to start some serious experimentation with my new exposure box/cylinder.
During the first phase of experimentation, I will be using Premier double sided boards from DATAK for my samples, and I will be using a standard incandescent bulb for exposure.
The samples will be 1/16" X 1 1/2" X 1 1/2" in size, with varying PCB trace widths on one side of the board and Novel Solutions artwork and contact information on the other. Instead of posting all the various results that may occur, I will only post the best known exposure photos, the exposure times, the bulb wattage, the chemicals, mixture, and time in the developer, as well as the chemicals, mixture, and time in the etchant. In addition to posting this information here, I will also be posting the results and various other tid bits on the Novel Solutions web site.
For those that may be interested, I have decided to file a patent application of the PCB cutting machine before putting it on the market. This machine is also capable of cutting thin sheet metal upto 3/16" thick X 13" wide. I will be filing the application very shortly, so you guys should be able to see and purchase my latest creation very soon. If you work with PCBs or thin sheet metal, you're definitely going to like this contraption
As a side note, the PCB driller is well under construction.
EDIT: Upon further testing, the new machine definitely has the capabilty of cutting metal, but it has to work much too hard for this task and it must be slowed down a lot, however it cuts PCB material fairly well.
@Bruce
'
I finally got the boards....Yea!!!!
'
These are the DATAK premier pre-sensitized positive acting boards.
'
Now its time for some more reading to make sure I don't mess this up.(I'm new to this method)
'
Any tips or suggestions are more than welcome.(Photo developing a PC board)
Philmore DATAK does not provide a whole lot of information pertaining to their boards. Besides the fact that these boards can be exposed with a standard incandescent bulb, the lack of information is one of the main reason that I am going to start experimenting with these boards.
First and foremost, protect the boards, unless you have spare money to spend on or time to wait for new boards. When I say protect them, I mean don't get carried away just yet. The first thing to figure out is how you are going to cut them. Then I would cut small sample sizes and experiment with the chemicals you bought and the exposure lighting available. The main problem with using their developer and etchant is that once you spend the money to experiment with those chemicals, then you are locked into that process, unless you buy more boards and other chemicals to experiment again. In my opinion, their chemicals are expensive, so in order for me to now reduce that cost, I now have to do another set of experiments.
Anyhow, if it was me doing the experimenting, I would cut up a few some small squares and use a laser printer to print some gradient lines onto a laser transparency, and then follow the directions available on the Philmore DATAK site pertaining to their Premier boards.
The main thing is to cut up small samples, do some test exposures, and become familiar with the entire process before exposing larger sections of PCB.
Are you going to use UV or incandescent lighting to expose your samples?
The boards I have are incandescent exposure type.
'
I also found the chemicals a little too pricey.I'm going to try KOH first and see how that works.I'll etch with Ferric Chloride.
Talking about expensive items....Transparencys....$$$$
'
I can not believe what these cost!...Simple clear plastic sheets...WTH?
'
Well at any rate I have this started.
'
Below is the top Transparency for my first run.
'
**Note the streak my printer left in the clear film. I hope this doesn't cause me problems.**
'
I'll post more later with details on how my board turned out.
Well...I'm getting closer.
'
I ramped up the lamp to a 150 watt flood.(from a 100 lamp)
'
exposure time 12-25 minutes
'
Greatly reduced my developer solution from 10:1 to 40:1 using the KOH...see PIC below.
I think the sellers concentrate mix are diluted 4:1
'
I still need to teak this a bit...But I'm dialing in on it.
'
It definitely looks like you are getting close, however I see you disregarded my advice of small test boards Once again, I say cut up some small boards to do your testing, just until you get a nice exposure and etching, then go for your design. Most people do testing with small boards and gradient widths of different size wire traces just to get the process down to a science. When you are capable of getting very fine trace widths after etching, then you know that you have a good process.
When I was working out the exposure needed for my setup, with a couple of 12" UV tubes, I used something like the old photographer's enlarger test strip, with a strip of laminate, test transparency, and a piece of cardboard. I moved the cardboard about 1/2" every minute.
A member of the Homebrew PCB group favours the use of one of these:
Mega is a very helpful company. I originally used their standard JetStar film with an Epson printer. When I changed to an HP model it didn't work properly, I asked them about a suitable film and they sent me a couple of sample sheets of the Premium material to try.
@Bruce
'
I did take your advice about the small samples.Thats how I found out my developer was way to strong.
'
I think I found the next bug.Temperature from the exposure lamp.
'
The small samples I ran felt just above room temp 80-85deg.F...(room temp about 70-72degF
I notice the larger sample was pretty warm after exposure, about 90-95 deg.F(the one in the photos)
'
Both samples were timed 20-minute exposures.With the flat face of the lamp 10" above the exposure.
'
I have a DS2760 T/C reader and some really small type "K" T/C wire.I'll place the T/C just adjacent to the PCB in the exposure frame and read the temperatures on the next tests.
'
@Leon
'
Those are some nice boards (megauk). A good price too!
I just got my second PCB cutter in good working condition. It cuts through 1/6" 2oz. double sided FR-4 boards like a hot knife going through warm butter
So tonight I will be cutting my 1" X 1" samples for exposure tests with my new exposure box/cylinder, and tomorrow I will make a new exposure plate for the 1" square samples.
After exposing the sample boards, I will be developing the sample boards with a mixture of ROOTO Crystals Of Household 100% Lye Drain Opener and etching the sample boards with a mixture of Muriatic Acid. This ought to be very interesting and educational. By the end of this week, I should have it all down to a science of making very nice circuit boards with my new exposure box/cylinder
Oh yeah! This new PCB cutter is truly amazing! It produces some very straight, accurate, and fine cuts through some very tough material and leaves very little burr. Just one of those things you have to see to believe. And the kerf is only slightly larger than a whopping 1/32" wide, so very little material is lost. Now I can sell custom cut pre-sensitized boards to match custom made exposure plates that I currently offer. Just imagine, with this cutter, there is no doubt in my mind that I can accurately and safely cut 1/4" X 1/4" pre-sensitized PCBs with the protective plastic coating installed. Now that is truly amazing
Ken called me Mr CNC, and now you call me Mr Inventor. I am not sure which one fits me more appropriately Who am I? I am taking on a whole new identity. Is this a mid-life crisis?
@Everyone Else
If you need custom cut pre-sensitized PCBs with accurate dimensions, I am now offering this service. However the cutting area is currently limited to a width of 14" or less. So if you need some boards smaller than 12" X 12", but larger than 1/4" X 1/4", just let me know.
Considering the kerf mentioned in my previous post, to save materials, I have decided to make 15/16" X 15/16" the perfect sample size. I am letting you know this ahead of time, because an accurately cut PCB to match an exposure plate is of the utmost importance of alignment between top and bottom copper layers when using my exposure box.
I just want everything to be "upfront" when I start making the samples.
Comments
'
What do think of this porduct?...Have you used it or something similar?
'
http://www.mgchemicals.com/downloads/pdf/specsheets/416dfr.pdf?PHPSESSID=a21dd3060783a8513ae7d7bcdc268537
'
This is the product data sheet for the product Bruce posted earlier.$18 bucks for a roll 12" X 60".
'
The maker speaks of NaOH and KOH in the process.I have both.
'
The spray-on stuff looks easier to use,But I can't find a supplier in the US.I'm not really sure whats its called.
I have not used this, but it is a product that I am interested in. Yes, I have used something similar, it is simply a UV sensitive photoimaging film. However, I have only used the positive acting type and this product is negative. The films will output a much better board as compared to spray on photoresist such as Positiv 20, or at least that is what I have read many times.
Referring to the mention of NaOH and KOH in the datasheet, that comes under a subsection of entitle "Stripping". I truly don't know what "Stripping" means, in that context of course
The main areas of concern in the datasheet are Development and Etching.
In fact, I was so interested in this product, at one point I called MG and asked them about a hypothetical process of applying the film.
If you are eager to get your feet wet before I really get the show on the road, try DATAK Premier positive acting boards. You only need a 100 watt light bulb for exposure, drain cleaner for developing, and muratic acid/hydrogen peroxide combination for etching. These boards can be found here http://www.minute-man.com/acatalog/Online_Catalog_Pre_Sensitized_PC_Boards_240.html
The datasheet for these boards can be found here http://www.philmore-datak.com/datakpos.html
'
The pretreated boards look like the way to start. $9 bucks for a 4"x 6" double sided pretreated board isn't bad...(I'll start with 2)
'
$9 bucks for 2oz.of positive develper....
'
I have all the rest....I prefer Ferric Chloride over the Muriatic acid/H2O2 mix.
To get your feet wet, that is probably the best way to go. However....
is quite expensive for the amount of developer that you get. That is why people use drain cleaner instead, such as the Rooto that I suggested at this link, http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/ProductDetails.aspx?SKU=4239216. You can find it at your local Ace Hardware for approximately $4.00 for a 1 lb. jar. Although I personally have not tested it yet, there is plenty of documentation about using caustic soda for developing. It will be much more economical and provide you with lots of developer, but of course you would need to experiment with it's mixing and use.
Bruce
@Leon - Okay that makes sense.
EDIT:
Pertaining to the issue of Ferric Chloride versus Muriatic Acid, once again it is a matter of economics. The chemicals are expensive for the quantity you receive, but only you can decide what you can afford and feel comfortable with. To me the chemicals are just way too expensive for the quantity received.
Two teaspoons of caustic soda per litre of water is what I use for developing. It can be used many times, also.
If you decide to use the Rooto instead of buying the developer, keep in mind that the "Premier" boards from DATAK do not require full strength developer. Some experimentation will be necessary or simply do the math.
"Premier" board part numbers start with the number 14.
Source: DATAK
During the first phase of experimentation, I will be using Premier double sided boards from DATAK for my samples, and I will be using a standard incandescent bulb for exposure.
The samples will be 1/16" X 1 1/2" X 1 1/2" in size, with varying PCB trace widths on one side of the board and Novel Solutions artwork and contact information on the other. Instead of posting all the various results that may occur, I will only post the best known exposure photos, the exposure times, the bulb wattage, the chemicals, mixture, and time in the developer, as well as the chemicals, mixture, and time in the etchant. In addition to posting this information here, I will also be posting the results and various other tid bits on the Novel Solutions web site.
For those that may be interested, I have decided to file a patent application of the PCB cutting machine before putting it on the market. This machine is also capable of cutting thin sheet metal upto 3/16" thick X 13" wide. I will be filing the application very shortly, so you guys should be able to see and purchase my latest creation very soon. If you work with PCBs or thin sheet metal, you're definitely going to like this contraption
As a side note, the PCB driller is well under construction.
Please stay tuned for further updates.
Bruce
Novel Solutions - http://www.novelsolutionsonline.com
EDIT: Upon further testing, the new machine definitely has the capabilty of cutting metal, but it has to work much too hard for this task and it must be slowed down a lot, however it cuts PCB material fairly well.
'
Cool!
Did you get your pcb materials and do some experimenting? If so, what were the results?
Bruce
'
No not yet its a long story.
'
I'll get back as soon as I do.
'
I finally got the boards....Yea!!!!
'
These are the DATAK premier pre-sensitized positive acting boards.
'
Now its time for some more reading to make sure I don't mess this up.(I'm new to this method)
'
Any tips or suggestions are more than welcome.(Photo developing a PC board)
Philmore DATAK does not provide a whole lot of information pertaining to their boards. Besides the fact that these boards can be exposed with a standard incandescent bulb, the lack of information is one of the main reason that I am going to start experimenting with these boards.
First and foremost, protect the boards, unless you have spare money to spend on or time to wait for new boards. When I say protect them, I mean don't get carried away just yet. The first thing to figure out is how you are going to cut them. Then I would cut small sample sizes and experiment with the chemicals you bought and the exposure lighting available. The main problem with using their developer and etchant is that once you spend the money to experiment with those chemicals, then you are locked into that process, unless you buy more boards and other chemicals to experiment again. In my opinion, their chemicals are expensive, so in order for me to now reduce that cost, I now have to do another set of experiments.
Anyhow, if it was me doing the experimenting, I would cut up a few some small squares and use a laser printer to print some gradient lines onto a laser transparency, and then follow the directions available on the Philmore DATAK site pertaining to their Premier boards.
The main thing is to cut up small samples, do some test exposures, and become familiar with the entire process before exposing larger sections of PCB.
Are you going to use UV or incandescent lighting to expose your samples?
Bruce
'
I also found the chemicals a little too pricey.I'm going to try KOH first and see how that works.I'll etch with Ferric Chloride.
'
I can not believe what these cost!...Simple clear plastic sheets...WTH?
'
Well at any rate I have this started.
'
Below is the top Transparency for my first run.
'
**Note the streak my printer left in the clear film. I hope this doesn't cause me problems.**
'
I'll post more later with details on how my board turned out.
'
I ramped up the lamp to a 150 watt flood.(from a 100 lamp)
'
exposure time 12-25 minutes
'
Greatly reduced my developer solution from 10:1 to 40:1 using the KOH...see PIC below.
I think the sellers concentrate mix are diluted 4:1
'
I still need to teak this a bit...But I'm dialing in on it.
'
'
using the DATAK presis. positive boards.
It definitely looks like you are getting close, however I see you disregarded my advice of small test boards
Bruce
A member of the Homebrew PCB group favours the use of one of these:
http://www.stouffer.net/TransPage.htm
It's basically the same as my technique, but much quicker
Yea, I have read about that method before, and that sounds like it would be worth a try.
Bruce
What type of board or film are you using? I imagine you are happy with it.
Bruce
http://www.megauk.com/pcb_laminates.php
with their JetStar Premium film:
http://www.megauk.com/artwork_films.php
and don't have any problems with 8/8 mil track/spacing.
One thing is for sure. PCB hobbyists that live in the UK, have much better access to materials and supplies as compared to people that live in the US.
Bruce
'
I did take your advice about the small samples.Thats how I found out my developer was way to strong.
'
I think I found the next bug.Temperature from the exposure lamp.
'
The small samples I ran felt just above room temp 80-85deg.F...(room temp about 70-72degF
I notice the larger sample was pretty warm after exposure, about 90-95 deg.F(the one in the photos)
'
Both samples were timed 20-minute exposures.With the flat face of the lamp 10" above the exposure.
'
I have a DS2760 T/C reader and some really small type "K" T/C wire.I'll place the T/C just adjacent to the PCB in the exposure frame and read the temperatures on the next tests.
'
@Leon
'
Those are some nice boards (megauk). A good price too!
I just got my second PCB cutter in good working condition. It cuts through 1/6" 2oz. double sided FR-4 boards like a hot knife going through warm butter
So tonight I will be cutting my 1" X 1" samples for exposure tests with my new exposure box/cylinder, and tomorrow I will make a new exposure plate for the 1" square samples.
After exposing the sample boards, I will be developing the sample boards with a mixture of ROOTO Crystals Of Household 100% Lye Drain Opener and etching the sample boards with a mixture of Muriatic Acid. This ought to be very interesting and educational. By the end of this week, I should have it all down to a science of making very nice circuit boards with my new exposure box/cylinder
Bruce
Oh yeah! This new PCB cutter is truly amazing! It produces some very straight, accurate, and fine cuts through some very tough material and leaves very little burr. Just one of those things you have to see to believe. And the kerf is only slightly larger than a whopping 1/32" wide, so very little material is lost. Now I can sell custom cut pre-sensitized boards to match custom made exposure plates that I currently offer. Just imagine, with this cutter, there is no doubt in my mind that I can accurately and safely cut 1/4" X 1/4" pre-sensitized PCBs with the protective plastic coating installed. Now that is truly amazing
Ken called me Mr CNC, and now you call me Mr Inventor. I am not sure which one fits me more appropriately
@Everyone Else
If you need custom cut pre-sensitized PCBs with accurate dimensions, I am now offering this service. However the cutting area is currently limited to a width of 14" or less. So if you need some boards smaller than 12" X 12", but larger than 1/4" X 1/4", just let me know.
Considering the kerf mentioned in my previous post, to save materials, I have decided to make 15/16" X 15/16" the perfect sample size. I am letting you know this ahead of time, because an accurately cut PCB to match an exposure plate is of the utmost importance of alignment between top and bottom copper layers when using my exposure box.
I just want everything to be "upfront" when I start making the samples.
Bruce