Thanks Ken. Way too many threads are being hijacked. I am tired of the recommendations trying to persuade users, or potential users, to use "another" processor when the topic does not require it. Only the other day I read a Basic Stamp thread (I think this is the first time ever) and I saw the same hijacking.
And... IMHO many of the posts on this thread are off-topic!
I'm not sure why these forums would need any new rules to enforce better etiquette (Although some rules to enforce improved spelling and grammar, see thread title, would be nice:).
In general these forums have been very polite and orderly, it's a pleasure to be here. Occasionally things flare up as they do in all human discourse but I've noticed that not so many are itching to throw gasoline on the fires and things soon calm down. The "stirrers" generally get ignored so they soon give up.
Oh yes, I must admit to getting out of line myself, apologies to anyone I may have annoyed.
I do hope things do not become too "PC" (Parallax Correct). We should not have to live in fear when suggesting competitors products to solve peoples problems where there are compelling reasons to do so. Nor should we live in fear when making balanced comparisons.
For all those struggling with the idea of etiquette on the forums I recommend Emily Post's "Etiquette - Manners for a new world".
At least the author has a fitting surname:)
Yes, Parallax needs to give these forums more attention.
The content of the Forum Rules link in the Posting Permissions block at the bottom of this forum page needs to be changed to reflect the rules.
Personally I would like to see all non-Parallax "designed for profit" products, promotions, and for sale advertising be restricted to the classifieds except where used in a project. I would happily follow such a rule. Constant Propeller or other forum "solicitation" is very annoying.
There are certain threads that amount to nothing more than pontificating and contain little or no substance.
While some members are obviously entertained by these extravagant, unsubstantial "projects", IMHO those theads should be relegated to a blog (or a dumpster) rather than cluttering up forums.
Maybe if there was Setting to ignore any thread started by an individual (in addition to ignoring posts)...
As a moderator, I tend to let most things pass unless that are really bad. And it depends on who the member is too. I would have think more than twice about deleting a post from say...Mike Green.
The problem we have sometimes is when someone is "thin-skinned" and blows up at the slightest negative comment. Then the name-calling starts and the whole thread degenerates from there.
So it's a tough call sometimes. What I would call "a helpful suggestion" someone else might take as "being mean". I wish we had a setting that each member could set as to their negativity tolerance. Something like:
1) Thin-skinned - Good luck with your time machine project.
2) Just don't be mean - I don't see how your time machine could possibly work.
3) Tell me what you REALLY think, I can take it. - You idiot, what are you thinking. Your time machine will never work.
I think we do need to crack down on the hijacking, irrelevent posts, posts touting non-parallax products and such.
My pet hate is the hijacking of any thread where the question is how can I do this with a prop and the answer comes back that xxx chip will do it better. That is hijacking and it is often done by a certain individual. There is always an argument that xxx or yyy may do it better, but that was not the question! There is a specific tone to this hijacking and it is common practice to the very threads promoting parallax chips. I even noticed the same hijacking on the Basic Stamp.
This hijacking and promoting of other chips to the detriment of Parallax is just plain rude. These threads in particular, are the ones that set out to promote the use of the prop, and IMHO try to turn potential users away from the prop. These threads always turn into heated debates on why xxx chip is better than the prop. As I said, I noticed this on a Basic Stamp thread too. This is the moderation I am after.
There is the other threads where things get heated because opinions differ. These occasionally need moderation IMHO.
I see nothing wrong with designs that use an alternative processor to something specific, as long as it is intended to supplement a Parallax product. (e.g. Jazzed's ATTiny use to be a peripheral to the prop to add a PS2 Keyboard and Mouse via I2C to the prop is a perfect example of a nice product that aids the prop because it expands the I/O and adds an intelligent peripheral to the prop - sorry Steve for using your example, but I think this is a great idea and aids the prop, not detracts from it).
Well, for my part, I can only go by a bit of history. My impression is that the Parallax forums used to be both lower-key and more helpful. It wasn't often that there was discussion about other manufacturers' being "better" -- they were only brought up in the context of PERIPHERAL use -- as in "If you know how to program an ATTiny, that would be perfect for a motor controller for your Stamp". As someone wrote above, this is Parallax's site, and hyping another device for the primary guts of the project at hand is rude. This isn't a "public" forum per se; if you want to argue that kind of material go to an EE site or LetsMakeRobots or something similar. That said, there are, of course, times where the "real" answer -- in the sense of "most practical and appropriate" -- is going to be another device, but I think that courteousness to the sponsors of the site might dictate something low-key, e.g. "I'm not really sure that the Stamp or Prop are ideal for what you want, but if you want to have a go at it, we can help".
I'm not just speaking of micros here -- it would be like hyping a high-end Devantech SRF unit when someone ask for help with a Ping))). It might, all things being equal, be a "better ideal solution", but I think sometimes members forget who our hosts are.
Second, I think many, many threads get way off-topic, or are "off-topic" to begin with. This might make me an ogre, but I don't remember there being so many topics and so many posts that were basically "my cool link that I found" or pictures of pets, or photos of children, or where I went surfing, or whatever. I'm sure I've been guilty of this myself. But there are plenty of social sites online. Another way to put it -- the forums seem to have gotten to be a bit more of a "clubhouse" and not as much pure problem-solving and discussion related to Parallax products, robotics, machining/design/contstruction techniques, etc. And I think the "clubhouse" vibe leads to the symptoms already described -- lapses into pettiness, feelings of unappreciation "for all I've done", less warmth towards "newbies", etc.
Third, although I mentioned it above -- stricter moderation. I think the pure focus of the forum in previous years helped the casual and regular visitor, because most threads were on-topic, and described some solution or approach that was useful. I lurked for nearly 18 months, reading every thread, because it took that long until I had problem that hadn't been answered already. Now it seems sometimes that I have to wade through a lot of posts that are not solutions/approaches, but something else altogether (for example, if you have lots of links to share, why not just create a thread called "cool links" and add posts to it as you come across more stuff). And certainly, the forum's built-in blogs are way more appropriate for a lot of material that ends up as threads on the forums.
Along those lines, a small detail -- I'm not sure allowing in-progress or incomplete project details in the "Projects" forum was a good call -- the Projects pages used to be a pretty comprehensive list of complete projects -- details, code, schematics -- and now a good chunk of material there is not helpful (and doesn't promote nor create an incentive for complete documentation of projects).
(looks at Bump's decidedly trendy avatar, happy that we don't offer sound capability)
Very, VERY happy!!
@Zoot: I agree that most threads are "off topic" to begin with, mainly because of the community this forum has formed. It would be hard to break apart what it has become, and I doubt any amount of moderation can do that. There is already a "chatter" tag to separate the helpful and non-helpful, though not everyone uses it.
This hijacking and promoting of other chips to the detriment of Parallax is just plain rude. These threads in particular, are the ones that set out to promote the use of the prop, and IMHO try to turn potential users away from the prop. These threads always turn into heated debates on why xxx chip is better than the prop. As I said, I noticed this on a Basic Stamp thread too. This is the moderation I am after.
That is the type of moderation we plan to offer; we just need to put the infrastructure in place for reference.
We agree with the assessment that the mood on the Parallax Discussion Forums doesn't need to be corrected much; we don't have (many?) runaway trolls, and people are generally considerate of others with a few lapses in judgement.. but that's why people go back and delete their own posts, right?
We're primarily investigating what we can do for topics, relevance, and possibly better categorization. We have a lot of top-level threads and that might be something we need to change going forward.
I think many, many threads get way off-topic, or are "off-topic" to begin with. . . . so many posts that were basically "my cool link that I found" . . . why not just create a thread called "cool links" and add posts to it as you come across more stuff). And certainly, the forum's built-in blogs are way more appropriate for a lot of material that ends up as threads on the forums.
I like Zoot's ideas about ways of sharing "cool links".
I've also thought about concerns some forum members have raised about making sure appropriate credit is given for ideas shared on the forum.
I've bolded the lines I think pertain the most to forum posts.
The seven principles of the code, intended to guide scientist's actions, are:
Act with skill and care in all scientific work. Maintain up to date skills and assist their development in others.
Take steps to prevent corrupt practices and professional misconduct. Declare conflicts of interest.
Be alert to the ways in which research derives from and affects the work of other people, and respect the rights and reputations of others.
Ensure that your work is lawful and justified.
Minimise and justify any adverse effect your work may have on people, animals and the natural environment.
Seek to discuss the issues that science raises for society. Listen to the aspirations and concerns of others.
Do not knowingly mislead, or allow others to be misled, about scientific matters. Present and review scientific evidence, theory or interpretation honestly and accurately.
While this forum isn't necessarily a scientific journal, I like to think there is scientifically significant work being done by forum members.
I've been looking for a place to share the quote for a while. I had planned to add it to my blog but I thought it was relevant to this thread's discussion.
I just saw Bump's post about deleting threads as I was about to post this.
I think deleting a post is fine if it is done immediately. I strongly dislike it when people delete posts that have been replied to.
I'm fine with posts being edited to remove mean language but I think the reason for the edit should be included.
I really dislike it when people edit posts because they are embarrassed by there ignorance in an earlier post. Removing the initial question after it has been answered makes the answer given useless to other forum members.
I just saw Bump's post about deleting threads as I was about to post this.
I think deleting a post is fine if it is done immediately. I strongly dislike it when people delete posts that have been replied to.
I'm fine with posts being edited to remove mean language but I think the reason for the edit should be included.
I really dislike it when people edit posts because they are embarrassed by there ignorance in an earlier post. Removing the initial question after it has been answered makes the answer given useless to other forum members.
When we initially relaunched the forums on the new (current) software we disabled the ability for edits/deletions; however we received a few complaints on the subject. It seems most people don't abuse this right, and it is a more intrinsic aspect of forums. Generally accepted that such tom-foolery when allowed to exist could, at any given time, exist.
As far as moderated deletions, we're working on a few more dynamics for this approach too. Our first big hurdle was managing the spam... and we've cut that significantly. From 80 spam-accounts per day to about 3 a month? Next comes polishing the forums, we've got wax and buffers.
... but that's why people go back and delete their own posts, right?
Well, no, not always. If I post something I regret, and if it survives without comment, I'll delete it. But once it's commented on or taken to task -- even justifiably (and there are numerous examples of that) -- I feel a responsibility to leave it up. Otherwise, it's like being in the public stocks without a sign around my neck telling what I did, and that's unfair to the community. Granted, it's no fun having one's miscreant behavior publicly indicted by a moderator -- especially one of Mike Green's stature; but once that happens, a simple deletion can't undo the sin and wipe the slate clean. You just have to suck it up and try to be a better forumista in the future.
In regards to "cool links" type of random, short-life threads, there is a way to combine threads, as well as moving posts, by moderators. These are tools that should be investigated for keeping good threads clean, while allowing the non-relevant, yet somehow useful information to still exist somewhere on the forums.
If I post something I regret, and if it survives without comment, I'll delete it. But once it's commented on or taken to task . . . I feel a responsibility to leave it up.
I agree completely.
I feel obligated to leave my mistakes for others to see. Whether it's a stupid joke (that was funny at 2 AM) or bad advice because I didn't read the poster's question well enough. I fell like if I wrote, I should leave it.
I might add an edit to explain myself but I leave the original words along with my retraction/correction.
I think off topic posts should be allowed, even if it requires an off topic sub forum. The fact is, it gets boring talking about the same things all of the time. Surely people have interests beyond what Parallax sells in their store.
Propeller should be about Propeller, Basic Stamps should be about Basic Stamps, and recipes for veal marsala and reminisces about filament voltage transformers belong elsewhere.
A place for everything and everything in its place.
Comments
Please add a bullet item to your rules:
- NO BARNEY. EVER!
Thank you.
But Barney is so cute, and kind, and purple...
I bet Barney in a Prop hat would be a good mascot for the prop.
C.W.
And... IMHO many of the posts on this thread are off-topic!
In general these forums have been very polite and orderly, it's a pleasure to be here. Occasionally things flare up as they do in all human discourse but I've noticed that not so many are itching to throw gasoline on the fires and things soon calm down. The "stirrers" generally get ignored so they soon give up.
Oh yes, I must admit to getting out of line myself, apologies to anyone I may have annoyed.
I do hope things do not become too "PC" (Parallax Correct). We should not have to live in fear when suggesting competitors products to solve peoples problems where there are compelling reasons to do so. Nor should we live in fear when making balanced comparisons.
At least the author has a fitting surname:)
The content of the Forum Rules link in the Posting Permissions block at the bottom of this forum page needs to be changed to reflect the rules.
Personally I would like to see all non-Parallax "designed for profit" products, promotions, and for sale advertising be restricted to the classifieds except where used in a project. I would happily follow such a rule. Constant Propeller or other forum "solicitation" is very annoying.
-Phil
1) Be Excellent to one another.
2) Moderation in everything, including moderation.
3) No Barney. EVER.
4) everybody must has cat in avatar or account deleet.
-browz
While some members are obviously entertained by these extravagant, unsubstantial "projects", IMHO those theads should be relegated to a blog (or a dumpster) rather than cluttering up forums.
Maybe if there was Setting to ignore any thread started by an individual (in addition to ignoring posts)...
The problem we have sometimes is when someone is "thin-skinned" and blows up at the slightest negative comment. Then the name-calling starts and the whole thread degenerates from there.
So it's a tough call sometimes. What I would call "a helpful suggestion" someone else might take as "being mean". I wish we had a setting that each member could set as to their negativity tolerance. Something like:
1) Thin-skinned - Good luck with your time machine project.
2) Just don't be mean - I don't see how your time machine could possibly work.
3) Tell me what you REALLY think, I can take it. - You idiot, what are you thinking. Your time machine will never work.
I think we do need to crack down on the hijacking, irrelevent posts, posts touting non-parallax products and such.
Bean
This hijacking and promoting of other chips to the detriment of Parallax is just plain rude. These threads in particular, are the ones that set out to promote the use of the prop, and IMHO try to turn potential users away from the prop. These threads always turn into heated debates on why xxx chip is better than the prop. As I said, I noticed this on a Basic Stamp thread too. This is the moderation I am after.
There is the other threads where things get heated because opinions differ. These occasionally need moderation IMHO.
I see nothing wrong with designs that use an alternative processor to something specific, as long as it is intended to supplement a Parallax product. (e.g. Jazzed's ATTiny use to be a peripheral to the prop to add a PS2 Keyboard and Mouse via I2C to the prop is a perfect example of a nice product that aids the prop because it expands the I/O and adds an intelligent peripheral to the prop - sorry Steve for using your example, but I think this is a great idea and aids the prop, not detracts from it).
I'm not just speaking of micros here -- it would be like hyping a high-end Devantech SRF unit when someone ask for help with a Ping))). It might, all things being equal, be a "better ideal solution", but I think sometimes members forget who our hosts are.
Second, I think many, many threads get way off-topic, or are "off-topic" to begin with. This might make me an ogre, but I don't remember there being so many topics and so many posts that were basically "my cool link that I found" or pictures of pets, or photos of children, or where I went surfing, or whatever. I'm sure I've been guilty of this myself. But there are plenty of social sites online. Another way to put it -- the forums seem to have gotten to be a bit more of a "clubhouse" and not as much pure problem-solving and discussion related to Parallax products, robotics, machining/design/contstruction techniques, etc. And I think the "clubhouse" vibe leads to the symptoms already described -- lapses into pettiness, feelings of unappreciation "for all I've done", less warmth towards "newbies", etc.
Third, although I mentioned it above -- stricter moderation. I think the pure focus of the forum in previous years helped the casual and regular visitor, because most threads were on-topic, and described some solution or approach that was useful. I lurked for nearly 18 months, reading every thread, because it took that long until I had problem that hadn't been answered already. Now it seems sometimes that I have to wade through a lot of posts that are not solutions/approaches, but something else altogether (for example, if you have lots of links to share, why not just create a thread called "cool links" and add posts to it as you come across more stuff). And certainly, the forum's built-in blogs are way more appropriate for a lot of material that ends up as threads on the forums.
Along those lines, a small detail -- I'm not sure allowing in-progress or incomplete project details in the "Projects" forum was a good call -- the Projects pages used to be a pretty comprehensive list of complete projects -- details, code, schematics -- and now a good chunk of material there is not helpful (and doesn't promote nor create an incentive for complete documentation of projects).
Very, VERY happy!!
@Zoot: I agree that most threads are "off topic" to begin with, mainly because of the community this forum has formed. It would be hard to break apart what it has become, and I doubt any amount of moderation can do that. There is already a "chatter" tag to separate the helpful and non-helpful, though not everyone uses it.
That is the type of moderation we plan to offer; we just need to put the infrastructure in place for reference.
We agree with the assessment that the mood on the Parallax Discussion Forums doesn't need to be corrected much; we don't have (many?) runaway trolls, and people are generally considerate of others with a few lapses in judgement.. but that's why people go back and delete their own posts, right?
We're primarily investigating what we can do for topics, relevance, and possibly better categorization. We have a lot of top-level threads and that might be something we need to change going forward.
Perhaps people with threads requiring moderation will be forced to view the forums through the "Nyan Scope."
I'm a bit torn about what I think I'd like.
I like Zoot's ideas about ways of sharing "cool links".
I've also thought about concerns some forum members have raised about making sure appropriate credit is given for ideas shared on the forum.
A while back I read Sir David King's "Hippocratic Oath for Scientists" which caused more thought about these concerns.
I've bolded the lines I think pertain the most to forum posts.
While this forum isn't necessarily a scientific journal, I like to think there is scientifically significant work being done by forum members.
I've been looking for a place to share the quote for a while. I had planned to add it to my blog but I thought it was relevant to this thread's discussion.
I just saw Bump's post about deleting threads as I was about to post this.
I think deleting a post is fine if it is done immediately. I strongly dislike it when people delete posts that have been replied to.
I'm fine with posts being edited to remove mean language but I think the reason for the edit should be included.
I really dislike it when people edit posts because they are embarrassed by there ignorance in an earlier post. Removing the initial question after it has been answered makes the answer given useless to other forum members.
Duane
When we initially relaunched the forums on the new (current) software we disabled the ability for edits/deletions; however we received a few complaints on the subject. It seems most people don't abuse this right, and it is a more intrinsic aspect of forums. Generally accepted that such tom-foolery when allowed to exist could, at any given time, exist.
As far as moderated deletions, we're working on a few more dynamics for this approach too. Our first big hurdle was managing the spam... and we've cut that significantly. From 80 spam-accounts per day to about 3 a month? Next comes polishing the forums, we've got wax and buffers.
-Phil
I feel obligated to leave my mistakes for others to see. Whether it's a stupid joke (that was funny at 2 AM) or bad advice because I didn't read the poster's question well enough. I fell like if I wrote, I should leave it.
I might add an edit to explain myself but I leave the original words along with my retraction/correction.
Duane
A place for everything and everything in its place.
Ok, that was worth a few laughs!
Is it just me or does anyone else ear the Nyan song in their heads when they see Bump's avatar?