"You Really Should Upgrade to the Prop"
erco
Posts: 20,256
I love this Basic Stamp Forum and all helpful people & posts here. A lot of noobs are in over their head asking for help, and genuinely smart people dive in to help them.
But I must admit, my least favorite response is "You Really Should Upgrade to the Prop". It's so quick & easy to reply. Ideally, we'd all be Prop heads and programming wizards, but not everyone is or yearns to be. A lot of people just want to solve a specific problem and correctly hear that a Stamp is a great place to start. I imagine that many users have their WAM kit or HW board and are quite proud of their newfound ability to move a servo, blink an LED, or beep a speaker. When they ask how to do something a bit beyond more challenging, it's all too easy to say "you should upgrade to Prop". In the real world, that's like telling a kid wanting to cross a busy street on his bicycle to go buy car and learn how to drive. Fairly unlikely in most cases.
Certainly the Stamp can be a stepping stone to the Prop. But God bless the Forumites who take an interest in helping others using the hardware they already have and go on to connect on a personal level to help solve problems (you know who you are, Ken, Mike, Tracy, Phil, PJ, Jon, Beau, Chris, Bean, etc...) Sometimes it's tweaking their code, other times it's redefining the problem or a clever workaround solution. It's directly rewarding for the parties involved, and it's even fun for others to follow threads and see progress, learning, and the vaunted "ah-hah" moment. Ain't nothing sweeter than seeing a happy ending to a "how do I do this" post. IMHO, that's the best incentive for someone choosing to upgrade to the Prop.
Per another thread, Parallax is committed to manufacturing BASIC Stamps for many years to come. I challenge us all to commit to continue helping others make the most of this classic little controller.
But I must admit, my least favorite response is "You Really Should Upgrade to the Prop". It's so quick & easy to reply. Ideally, we'd all be Prop heads and programming wizards, but not everyone is or yearns to be. A lot of people just want to solve a specific problem and correctly hear that a Stamp is a great place to start. I imagine that many users have their WAM kit or HW board and are quite proud of their newfound ability to move a servo, blink an LED, or beep a speaker. When they ask how to do something a bit beyond more challenging, it's all too easy to say "you should upgrade to Prop". In the real world, that's like telling a kid wanting to cross a busy street on his bicycle to go buy car and learn how to drive. Fairly unlikely in most cases.
Certainly the Stamp can be a stepping stone to the Prop. But God bless the Forumites who take an interest in helping others using the hardware they already have and go on to connect on a personal level to help solve problems (you know who you are, Ken, Mike, Tracy, Phil, PJ, Jon, Beau, Chris, Bean, etc...) Sometimes it's tweaking their code, other times it's redefining the problem or a clever workaround solution. It's directly rewarding for the parties involved, and it's even fun for others to follow threads and see progress, learning, and the vaunted "ah-hah" moment. Ain't nothing sweeter than seeing a happy ending to a "how do I do this" post. IMHO, that's the best incentive for someone choosing to upgrade to the Prop.
Per another thread, Parallax is committed to manufacturing BASIC Stamps for many years to come. I challenge us all to commit to continue helping others make the most of this classic little controller.
Comments
That said, code examples often help, but members asking questions should also provide complete details of their issue. Saying, "It doesn't work" doesn't give much to work with. Please provide examples of your code and explain the results you're seeing versus what you expect to see. This way it is clear what you're trying to do and what is happening. I hope this helps.
Similarly, a BS2 (of whatever flavor) is very well suited for a lot of tasks. It's easy to learn to program, easy to use, reliable, well supported, etc. On the other hand, forum members continue to bring up proposed projects that have lots of bits and pieces, sometimes requiring different things that have to be done at the same time. In the past, we'd suggest using external "peripheral processors" like a ServoPAL or a Protean Logic's serial buffer or the Propeller Servo Controller. These work well, but cost extra. Sometimes, using multiple Basic Stamps also works for accomplishing a task, but the inter-Stamp communications adds to the complexity of the project.
I can't speak for others, but, when I suggest "You Really Should Upgrade to the Prop", it's because I think it's a better fit for the proposed project than the Basic Stamp. There are a lot of "tricks" in programming for the Stamps to work around its single-threaded nature or to save memory or speed up some code, but, at some point, the forum member may learn more and better by using another tool better suited to the job at hand. This does work both ways. There are many tasks where a nice clean microcontroller like the BS2 is a better tool for the job than something bigger / faster / "cool"er.
My frst ever project with microcontrollers was with the BS2, and I immediately exceeded the number of I/Os by easily 3X. So I brought shift registers and 4:16 decoders into play. I could have switched to the BS2p40, but the cost was prohibitive at the time.
BS2 speed has not been an issue so far. Memory size has not been an issue, but I can see where it might be in the future.
The BS2 is not overly difficult to understand in terms of hardware, and the software is pretty straight forward; unless immersion in the math functions is required as noted in a solar tracking thread a couple months back. I was amazed at the capability of "this classic little controller" through that thread!
Why I don't switch to the Propeller is for 2 reasons: 1) my needs don't require its features, and 2), the S/W learning curve.
I see the two products (BS2 et. al. and Propeller) addressing different target markets with some overlap (long live both!).
Considering the BS2 as a "baby step" to the Propeller, somehow demeans the effort of all Parallax employees that brought the BS2 to life - a very, very fruitful life.
...my $0.02...
This is also a Basic Stamp support forum in a group of forums sponsored by Parallax. If you're going to recommend competing microcontrollers, you should be much more specific about what sorts of projects might be better served by a competing microcontroller and why including pros and cons. You're not helping anyone by just saying other competing microcontrollers are better.
The Stamp documentation is written for a raw beginner, particularly if you start with "What's a Microcontroller?" and the "StampWorks Manual" for a slightly more experienced audience.
With all the fuss and bother over Steve Jobs' resignation, I've started thinking about Parallax much the same way I think about Apple and its focus on the user's experience, ease of use, reliability, etc. and very little focus on the internal hardware details as long as it does the job.
There is also the Arduino, and the version of it with a PIC32, for complete beginners.
Mike, I like your Apple analogy.
Careful - there's ramifications in doing so!
I think Leon missed the point of this thread. Many of the members, especially those asking for help with BASIC Stamp projects or questions are tired of being directed to other platforms such as the Propeller. Leon, your reply above is doing that very same thing. My inclination was to remove your posts, however I believe they will serve better to show exactly what the problem is that we're trying to avoid. As I said before, if you can't help a member with their BASIC Stamp questions or projects you probably should not answer the thread unless you have questions also.
Responses directing members to other platforms are counter-productive, serve only the person posting them and tend to discourage new members from asking questions. In the future I will remove such posts if I see them. You can't help a guy with a Chevy by telling him to get a Ford. Likewise, you can't help someone with their BASIC Stamp questions by referring them elsewhere. This board is for support of BASIC Stamps, not other platforms.
That's not cricket and I think you get that.
Around here, as I see it, it's either BS2 or Propeller.
If it's too big a job for a Stamp then it's Propeller time.
The Spin Stamp, the Propeller Protoboard, and even that new "jump the shark" board, of all things, that they're bound and determined to flog (good grief!) at RadioShack, all cost less than any BS2.
(Oh-oh, I disparaged the "quickstart"; so, I'm bad, too.)
Also not saying anything is the worst help ever-cricket,cricket
That said, one of the most useful skills in engineering is making do with what is at hand.
I'm unbelievably happy with my BS2 and my Boe-Bot kit. I've been wanting to build robots since I was a little kid and am planning on doing it as a career once I finish up college. I've got several ideas for different things I want to do with my newly learned skill from automating my bedroom to building a document delivery bot for use in schools and office buildings to creating a real-life Pip-Boy 3000 (from the video game Fallout 3). And now that I've got a slight handle on programming a BS2, I can see that it can probably handle everything I'd like to do.
I must admit, initially, I had planned on getting a Prop and learning Spin very quickly, but now that I've gotten started with my BS2, I just want to tinker with it and push it's limits to see what I can pull off with just it. :thumb: The Prop sure does look nice, but the BS2 can cover most things on it's own and it's been an amazing learning tool thus far
I think that they could fill that gap in a few ways...
- by offering a product based on another fairly common chip (maybe a modern variant of the 8051 or Zilog)
- by creating more variants of a "hybrid" design like the BS2pe motherboard
- developing another IC that's not the Propeller, and building a product line around it
However, even if Parallax fills that gap, it's not to say that people should be steered away from the BS2, unless it's clearly warranted based on their requirements.
Exactly, Tracy. Those three astronauts on Apollo 13 would NOT want to hear "you really should upgrade to a Prop"... !
It's all too easy when you're a Propeller user to recommend it over the BASIC Stamp, however for most of the members posting in here they either already have the BASIC Stamp, aren't interested in the Propeller or are required by their class curriculum to use the BASIC Stamp. So suggesting another platform is not appropriate. When they ask in this forum for support, they want an answer to their question, not a redirection.
Second issue is related to knowledge of the BASIC Stamps and proficiency. Besides the fact that it is unethical, inappropariate and/or rude to constantly refer members to other platforms when on the Parallax support forums, it also shows a lack of knowledge and proficiency on the part of some that do this. How do you know the BASIC Stamp can't do what the member/customer wants? In the last 10 years I have proven more than a few times that the BASIC Stamp could do what others said could not be done. I have designed commercial applications for companies where their engineering dept. failed to complete citing the BASIC Stamp as incapable. And I have helped others for programs into the memory of the BASIC Stamp by rewriting the code to be more efficient, to resuse variables and not allocate uneeded space.
So often it is merely proficiency with a platform that decides if it is applicable for a task and it is also easy to rule out the BASIC Stamp in favor of MCUs with more RAM, more EEPROM, flash memory. But really, not every application requires that. And I think this move towards tons of resources really just conditions programmers to not be effcient in their coding anymore. Why re-use a variable when you can make as many as you want. But I consider that poor programming practice myself.
So I hope this encourages others to think before suggesting a new platform. And remember, there are more models of the BASIC Stamp with more resources. Often if a BS2 won't work, a BS2p will, and then you're still in the same ball park. The following statement offered no valuable or useful information to members of these forums:
Mike Green made some excellent points in response to this message and I think his point was lost to Leon. Since these are Parallax support forums, members can expect to get support for using our products. If Leon (or anyone else) is going to suggest products from other companies here, that eliminates our ability to help the customer. Perhaps in such a case Leon (or whoever made the suggestion) should then support the customer in their use of the products they recommend? Otherwise you have nullified the member coming here for help and essentially prevented them from getting assistance.
Remember, if they're here, they're probably not interested in going to those sites.
Hello!
PJ are you saying that they are landing at RS? (And they just decided fairly recently to return to their roots again.) Where was this discussed? I'm actually seriously considering exploring the Prop Proto for something because I feel its, ah, better fit then say, that thing named after a bar or something in Italy.
Well you really have three options.
1. Use external products with the Basic Stamp (such as a ServoPAL ,or one of the Al Williams products, etc etc) which will reduce what the Stamp needs to do.
2. Go to another processor which is similar to the Stamp.
3. Go to the Propeller and use SPIN etc.
That is what I had to do. My little robot had a fantastic program written by me (!!) but due to the BasicStamps (2p) restrictions it would not run as intended. I looked at using other chips with the Stamp to do what I needed it to do. Was it possible? -- Yes. But it restricted my future programming designs. I purchased another processor that was pin to pin compatible with the Stamp, but that had other issues which required me to change the hardware design of my project. So I then went to the Propeller. Yes it is a complete different design software and hardware BUT for the future it has the power for all I need it to do.
Yet, the fact remains that much of Parallax's investment in education and entry-level microcomputing resides with the BASIC Stamp. But I think it's time to transition this emphasis away from the Stamp products to the Propeller and give the Stamps a quiet but well-deserved retirement. In the long run, customers will be more satisfied with what they can accomplish with less effort with the Propeller, and Parallax can concentrate their educational efforts on avenues that lead to this satisfaction. "Should You Really Upgrade to the Prop?" I say, yes, definitely! Do I plan to steer users away from the BASIC Stamp in the forum, against Parallax's express wishes? No, of course not. I shall continue to answer forumistas' questions about the BASIC Stamp within that realm, when possible, as best I can, although Tracy Allen is much better at it.
-Phil
-Phil