A simpler suggested Proto Board capable of HV applications.
Includes:
EEPROM
Crystal
Prop Chip
Power switch
Power LED
Plenty of prototype area
VDD bus holes
VSS bus holes
5V bus holes
Serveral position power header like Phil Pilgrim suggests in the post below, for tapping GND and VIN or 0.2" pitch holes with a generous hole and pad, for screw or cage clamp as Tubular suggests
3.3V Regulator for supplying VDD
5V Regulator for supplying 5V logic and servos
One set of holes to accomodate a predetermined adjustable switching regulator for feeding the 3.3V and 5.0V regulators (please refer to the switching regulator that Mike Green suggests http://www.dimensionengineering.com/SWADJHV.htm)
Positive test point after the output of the adjustable regulator but prior to the 3.3V and 5.0V regulators
Does not include:
Servo rows or columns
Video port
Mouse port
Keyboard port
Power Plug
In this situation, I would be perfectly happy buying a switching regulator and throwing it on the board.
Bruce
EDIT: This post will be edited from time to time
EDIT: The schematic shown below in a succeeding post has been added to this post so that the suggestions and schematic are in one location.
There are indeed different schools of thought on the pluggable connector idea - it adds another mated surface for noise, corrosion and those pesky milliohms to appear on.
The good news is just design the PCB for 0.2" pitch with a generous hole and pad, and it covers many options - screw or cage clamp. If you add a second row of "bussed" 0.2" these can be used for the L+ (for pnp logic inputs, travel limit switches etc) or Gnd return (pnp outputs) loop connections. See for example Wago 736 series (these are 5.00mm pitch, but Weidmueller or others may have same in 0.2" cage clamp or pluggable equivalents).
To really garner love and awe you could go for triple rows (Wago 737 series) as these allow virtually any prox to be connected.
btw out of interest rang the big distributor here who sells both styles of terminal. Despite the engineering superiority and speed of Cage Clamp, it's still only about 50% of the terminal market here. Might have something to do with sparkies being paid by the hour. Also traditions die very hard... I would expect it to be a higher % in Europe. What about USA?
Couple of pics with my current thoughts/ideas on the matter
1) An "hardened" prop (12-48v IO) could be placed in the 2.75" long Parallax extrusion. The prop would go on the back and indicator leds, legend, and/or IO config switches on the front. Enough room for 16 connections at top and 16 at bottom, plus a slimline D at each end (say RS232 at one end and VGA out at the other) These connectors are 0.15" and can be "keyed" to prevent wrong connection.
An alternative would be to make the i/o modules to suit the MoBo range... that way could choose each end module independently for reasonable flexibility... Phil??
2) The proto board/box I picked up yesterday with 0.2" screw terminals. Not quite big enough for the prop proto board unfortunately, but propstick looks good !
And nice vents at back to help lose the switching heat...
3) The board currently getting me out of trouble with lots of opto inputs... feel free to copy layout etc if it helps.
My thoughts were something similar to the schematic shown below. It is just a simplified version of the standard Proto Board with an adjustable switching regulator added.
It's not about reasonable-ness. It's about money. Even with what seems like the most reasonable modifications to an existing design, there are significant costs associated with actually making the modifications, testing them, planning for manufacturing, testing the manufacturing process, developing documentation (even if mostly similar to existing documentation), planning for tech support, etc. The price of the item has to be set high enough to cover the Bill of Materials, the actual cost of manufacturing, and a portion of the above development costs depending on the expected sales volume. If the price is too high, people definitely won't buy it. If the market is too small, Parallax won't recover the development costs (and can't afford to do that too often). Parallax has to make decisions all the time about potential market size. Part of that is knowing your market. If you're going to sell into an unfamiliar market, you're going to be more conservative about your decisions because you're more likely to be wrong. You will also have new support costs in moving into a new market. That's why Parallax often partners with others for some new products (like Hydra and the Propeller Backpack). It cuts the up-front development costs.
So, keep refining your idea, but drop the bit about reasonableness and that Parallax is missing the boat by not jumping in and running with your idea. They have lots of reasons for not doing it that are also reasonable (from a business perspective). You've got a sales job for your proposal and salesmen do much better when they're prepared with facts, specific proposals, prototypes, etc.
that Parallax is missing the boat by not jumping in and running with your idea. They have lots of reasons for not doing it that are also reasonable (from a business perspective).
There is no doubt that I could be completely wrong about the market for such a board, and there is no doubt in my mind that Parallax would know much more about such a market as compared to my hunch. However I can say this, if Parallax offered the board above, I would buy it probably 5 out of 10 times in relation to the standard Proto Board. As far as the word "reasonable" is concerned, I meant, reasonable suggestion. I am not going to be upset if Parallax doesn't like my suggestion, I am just informing them of a design that would make my life easier, and of course I realize it is not Parallax's responsibility to make my life easier
I am coming into this discussion a little late. Maybe i missed the part why you said you can't, but why not just use two power supplies?.. OR! I assume you need a higher voltage to power the motors and stuff, but you need logic level voltages to power the Propeller. Why not just make a small regulator board to power the prop from the high voltage? Maybe i am missing something, but it sounds like it would be easier than redesigning your whole controller board.
Good question! Because I have found it to be a real pain, especially when dealing with cabinets or project boxes. If you are dealing with a metal cabinet, the pain is more intense. If the Proto Board resides in a cabinet, you must make provisions for the LV input, plus the HV input. By using an adjustable regulator, it cuts that work in half or better than half.
@Heater
I don't know. Not many chip suppliers provide "industrial strength" demo boards for their devices. The range of applications is perhaps to vast.
I can't say for certain, because I never researched that feature for other prototype boards for other microcontrollers, but I am sure it is true. However, that does not disqualify my idea. The Propeller is an awesome chip for HV machinery control.
Bruce, We appreciate your suggestions, please keep them coming. Parallax is working on several promising projects as we speak. Your input is valuable! We will see what we can do regarding your request.
Thanks for dropping by Dave. I am not sure how valuable my input is, all I can say for sure is that it would make my kind of projects so much easier to work on. And undoubtedly, I can't say for sure how much a board like this would benefit other people, but I think there might be some people that would use it.
Considering that this thread was started due to problems associated with so called high voltage, power supplies, equipment, and metal cabinetry, I thought it would be nice to address another issue. In this intended application or scenario, a Propeller Proto Board is mounted within a metal cabinet to control a piece or several pieces of equipment. In this situation there is also another problem associated with the metal cabinetry and that is the programming of the board. To program a Propeller Proto Board mounted within metal cabinetry there are two available options, either provide some type of creative hook up from the board to an external port on the cabinet or constantly remove the cover of the cabinet to reprogram the board. To overcome this problem in the past, I have mounted a DB9 connector on the outside of the cabinet which connects to the Propeller Proto Board and I use a homemade field programmer for reprogramming.
Since I am suggesting another Propeller Proto Board to deal with higher voltages, I thought it would be nice to feed two birds with one bread crumb, so I have altered the previously presented schematic with a viable solution. In this schematic I have added the FT232RQ which will allow direct connection from a PC to a piece of High Voltage equipment with a panel mount USB connector.
I've only glanced over this thread although it was a bit misleading when it says "High Voltage". Do you know that 48V and under is considered ELV or extra LOW voltage?
If you were talking 110..240 then that would be "Mains Voltage" while high voltage is much more again.
Anyway, I do have small plug-in "Puppy" modules that address some of the issues I see that you are asking about. These are small 1.8" x 0.78" modules with 8x2 pins at either end. For higher power I double up some of the pins so that I can have a quad half-bridge on 8 of those pins along with power and grounds while the logic interface resides on the other end. There's even motherboards for these too although they are designed for specialized enclosures. Some of the bridge modules are designed for 8A @24V operation (or more). There's also an assortment of other modules.
Just letting you know that there are solutions out there but the majority of the forum would not have a need for this kind of stuff.
There is almost always several solutions to a common problem. I would like to address some of the things that you have pointed out.
Do you know that 48V and under is considered ELV or extra LOW voltage?
I am not certain of all the various voltage classifications, but as stipulated earlier in this thread, high voltage within this thread refers to voltages beyond what the LDO regulators of the Proto Board can handle.
Anyway, I do have small plug-in "Puppy" modules that address some of the issues I see that you are asking about. These are small 1.8" x 0.78" modules with 8x2 pins at either end. For higher power I double up some of the pins so that I can have a quad half-bridge on 8 of those pins along with power and grounds while the logic interface resides on the other end. There's even motherboards for these too although they are designed for specialized enclosures. Some of the bridge modules are designed for 8A @24V operation (or more). There's also an assortment of other modules.
The suggested Propeller Proto Board HV-USB is intended to be a development platform for experimenting with and developing bridge and motor drivers with higher voltages, as well as other applications that may require more than 5V. Especially geared more towards industrial applications.
Just letting you know that there are solutions out there but the majority of the forum would not have a need for this kind of stuff.
I am aware of various solutions, and I am also aware that the majority of the forum would not have a need for this kind of stuff. However to me, that is the biggest problem with this forum. If an idea does not fit into the main stream of the forum, the idea is often attacked. New products can attract a different clientele and add to the diversity of the forum and hopefully added revenue to company profits. Of course that is just my opinion.
Well Bruce, I still think it's very incorrect to say "high voltage", it just isn't in anyway or else 5V could certainly be classified as high voltage in respect to ULV logic.
I share your sentiments to some extent regarding the attitude of the forum. I don't know why sometimes they get all excited and hot under the collar about some really simple and basic things and yet other far more exciting things are either completely ignored or as you say "attacked". I guess it's the level they're working at but the forum benefits from material over a wide background. Little clich
Well Bruce, I still think it's very incorrect to say "high voltage", it just isn't in anyway or else 5V could certainly be classified as high voltage in respect to ULV logic.
I absolutely agree with you Peter, but please don't tell anyone else in the forum
In the United States 2005 National Electrical Code (NEC), high voltage is any voltage over 600 V (article 490.2). Source Wikipedia
The general public may consider household mains circuits (100–250 V AC), which carry the highest voltages they normally encounter, to be high voltage. Source Wikipedia
Since I live in the USA, and since I am an electrician by trade, naturally I would choose the NEC definition of high voltage. However, speaking from personal experience, any voltage that I can feel travel through my body to ground, I consider to be EXTREMELY HIGH VOLTAGE
E.G. 9V alkaline battery placed on the tongue is high enough voltage for me
Ha! Done that many times. How else do you tell if some odd battery you find is still good for something? Perhaps not 60 seconds though.
I like to build things with tubes, hence the name "Heater", which has provided quite enough high voltage frights for me alteady.
In my teens I was building simple amateur band recievers. Amazed to find that even I could build something that could pick up signals from the other side of the world with only a couple of tubes. Never did get into transmitters. That was also the era of digital (TTL) gadgets with nixie displays.
Then there was a lull for a long time until in recent years I just had to try out hybrid audio amps, triode front ends driving MOSFET power stages. Not tube purist but saves a fortune on output transformers. I also have collection of old AM radios that need fixing up.
Soon I'll be exploring nixies again. Driven from a Propellers of course.
I got hooked across a DC-DC inverter I built for my amateur transciever... 400V 100mA. I was tuning up the transmitter when I got hooked - pulled the unit and all the test equipment off the bench which fell to the floor so I could to get unhooked. Wasn't at all well for the rest of the day
Bruce,
Tubes require high voltages, anode to cathode, to operate. The currents they can carry are not so great. On the other hand typical speakers, 8 ohms say, require much larger currents to get any usefull output. So there is the problem of matching the high output impeadance of the tube amplification to the low impeadance of the speakers. Hence the output transformer.
Or in a hibrid design MOSFETs can act as voltage followers after the tube gain stages to drive high currents to the speakers.
P.S. Those HIFI audio output transformers have always been a problem. They have to handle the bandwidth and the currents. They end up being big and expensive. Rare and expensive now a days.
Comments
A simpler suggested Proto Board capable of HV applications.
Includes:
- EEPROM
- Crystal
- Prop Chip
- Power switch
- Power LED
- Plenty of prototype area
- VDD bus holes
- VSS bus holes
- 5V bus holes
- Serveral position power header like Phil Pilgrim suggests in the post below, for tapping GND and VIN or 0.2" pitch holes with a generous hole and pad, for screw or cage clamp as Tubular suggests
- 3.3V Regulator for supplying VDD
- 5V Regulator for supplying 5V logic and servos
- One set of holes to accomodate a predetermined adjustable switching regulator for feeding the 3.3V and 5.0V regulators (please refer to the switching regulator that Mike Green suggests http://www.dimensionengineering.com/SWADJHV.htm)
- Positive test point after the output of the adjustable regulator but prior to the 3.3V and 5.0V regulators
Does not include:- Servo rows or columns
- Video port
- Mouse port
- Keyboard port
- Power Plug
In this situation, I would be perfectly happy buying a switching regulator and throwing it on the board.Bruce
EDIT: This post will be edited from time to time
EDIT: The schematic shown below in a succeeding post has been added to this post so that the suggestions and schematic are in one location.
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=281-1281-ND
The Molex KK-series is also very popular but requires the use of a crimping tool to make the connections on the plug side.
-Phil
Bruce
http://www.digikey.com/us/en/ph/Weidmuller/BLF_series.html
The good news is just design the PCB for 0.2" pitch with a generous hole and pad, and it covers many options - screw or cage clamp. If you add a second row of "bussed" 0.2" these can be used for the L+ (for pnp logic inputs, travel limit switches etc) or Gnd return (pnp outputs) loop connections. See for example Wago 736 series (these are 5.00mm pitch, but Weidmueller or others may have same in 0.2" cage clamp or pluggable equivalents).
To really garner love and awe you could go for triple rows (Wago 737 series) as these allow virtually any prox to be connected.
btw out of interest rang the big distributor here who sells both styles of terminal. Despite the engineering superiority and speed of Cage Clamp, it's still only about 50% of the terminal market here. Might have something to do with sparkies being paid by the hour. Also traditions die very hard... I would expect it to be a higher % in Europe. What about USA?
Thanks for the info.
Bruce
1) An "hardened" prop (12-48v IO) could be placed in the 2.75" long Parallax extrusion. The prop would go on the back and indicator leds, legend, and/or IO config switches on the front. Enough room for 16 connections at top and 16 at bottom, plus a slimline D at each end (say RS232 at one end and VGA out at the other) These connectors are 0.15" and can be "keyed" to prevent wrong connection.
An alternative would be to make the i/o modules to suit the MoBo range... that way could choose each end module independently for reasonable flexibility... Phil??
2) The proto board/box I picked up yesterday with 0.2" screw terminals. Not quite big enough for the prop proto board unfortunately, but propstick looks good !
And nice vents at back to help lose the switching heat...
3) The board currently getting me out of trouble with lots of opto inputs... feel free to copy layout etc if it helps.
EDIT: Now does this seem so unreasonable?
It's not about reasonable-ness. It's about money. Even with what seems like the most reasonable modifications to an existing design, there are significant costs associated with actually making the modifications, testing them, planning for manufacturing, testing the manufacturing process, developing documentation (even if mostly similar to existing documentation), planning for tech support, etc. The price of the item has to be set high enough to cover the Bill of Materials, the actual cost of manufacturing, and a portion of the above development costs depending on the expected sales volume. If the price is too high, people definitely won't buy it. If the market is too small, Parallax won't recover the development costs (and can't afford to do that too often). Parallax has to make decisions all the time about potential market size. Part of that is knowing your market. If you're going to sell into an unfamiliar market, you're going to be more conservative about your decisions because you're more likely to be wrong. You will also have new support costs in moving into a new market. That's why Parallax often partners with others for some new products (like Hydra and the Propeller Backpack). It cuts the up-front development costs.
So, keep refining your idea, but drop the bit about reasonableness and that Parallax is missing the boat by not jumping in and running with your idea. They have lots of reasons for not doing it that are also reasonable (from a business perspective). You've got a sales job for your proposal and salesmen do much better when they're prepared with facts, specific proposals, prototypes, etc.
There is no doubt that I could be completely wrong about the market for such a board, and there is no doubt in my mind that Parallax would know much more about such a market as compared to my hunch. However I can say this, if Parallax offered the board above, I would buy it probably 5 out of 10 times in relation to the standard Proto Board. As far as the word "reasonable" is concerned, I meant, reasonable suggestion. I am not going to be upset if Parallax doesn't like my suggestion, I am just informing them of a design that would make my life easier, and of course I realize it is not Parallax's responsibility to make my life easier
Thanks for the response Mike
Bruce
Good question! Because I have found it to be a real pain, especially when dealing with cabinets or project boxes. If you are dealing with a metal cabinet, the pain is more intense. If the Proto Board resides in a cabinet, you must make provisions for the LV input, plus the HV input. By using an adjustable regulator, it cuts that work in half or better than half.
@Heater
I can't say for certain, because I never researched that feature for other prototype boards for other microcontrollers, but I am sure it is true. However, that does not disqualify my idea. The Propeller is an awesome chip for HV machinery control.
Thanks,
Dave
Thanks for dropping by Dave. I am not sure how valuable my input is, all I can say for sure is that it would make my kind of projects so much easier to work on. And undoubtedly, I can't say for sure how much a board like this would benefit other people, but I think there might be some people that would use it.
Bruce
Considering that this thread was started due to problems associated with so called high voltage, power supplies, equipment, and metal cabinetry, I thought it would be nice to address another issue. In this intended application or scenario, a Propeller Proto Board is mounted within a metal cabinet to control a piece or several pieces of equipment. In this situation there is also another problem associated with the metal cabinetry and that is the programming of the board. To program a Propeller Proto Board mounted within metal cabinetry there are two available options, either provide some type of creative hook up from the board to an external port on the cabinet or constantly remove the cover of the cabinet to reprogram the board. To overcome this problem in the past, I have mounted a DB9 connector on the outside of the cabinet which connects to the Propeller Proto Board and I use a homemade field programmer for reprogramming.
Since I am suggesting another Propeller Proto Board to deal with higher voltages, I thought it would be nice to feed two birds with one bread crumb, so I have altered the previously presented schematic with a viable solution. In this schematic I have added the FT232RQ which will allow direct connection from a PC to a piece of High Voltage equipment with a panel mount USB connector.
Bruce
I've only glanced over this thread although it was a bit misleading when it says "High Voltage". Do you know that 48V and under is considered ELV or extra LOW voltage?
If you were talking 110..240 then that would be "Mains Voltage" while high voltage is much more again.
Anyway, I do have small plug-in "Puppy" modules that address some of the issues I see that you are asking about. These are small 1.8" x 0.78" modules with 8x2 pins at either end. For higher power I double up some of the pins so that I can have a quad half-bridge on 8 of those pins along with power and grounds while the logic interface resides on the other end. There's even motherboards for these too although they are designed for specialized enclosures. Some of the bridge modules are designed for 8A @24V operation (or more). There's also an assortment of other modules.
Just letting you know that there are solutions out there but the majority of the forum would not have a need for this kind of stuff.
There is almost always several solutions to a common problem. I would like to address some of the things that you have pointed out.
I am not certain of all the various voltage classifications, but as stipulated earlier in this thread, high voltage within this thread refers to voltages beyond what the LDO regulators of the Proto Board can handle.
The suggested Propeller Proto Board HV-USB is intended to be a development platform for experimenting with and developing bridge and motor drivers with higher voltages, as well as other applications that may require more than 5V. Especially geared more towards industrial applications.
I am aware of various solutions, and I am also aware that the majority of the forum would not have a need for this kind of stuff. However to me, that is the biggest problem with this forum. If an idea does not fit into the main stream of the forum, the idea is often attacked. New products can attract a different clientele and add to the diversity of the forum and hopefully added revenue to company profits. Of course that is just my opinion.
Bruce
I share your sentiments to some extent regarding the attitude of the forum. I don't know why sometimes they get all excited and hot under the collar about some really simple and basic things and yet other far more exciting things are either completely ignored or as you say "attacked". I guess it's the level they're working at but the forum benefits from material over a wide background. Little clich
I absolutely agree with you Peter, but please don't tell anyone else in the forum
Since I live in the USA, and since I am an electrician by trade, naturally I would choose the NEC definition of high voltage. However, speaking from personal experience, any voltage that I can feel travel through my body to ground, I consider to be EXTREMELY HIGH VOLTAGE
E.G. 9V alkaline battery placed on the tongue is high enough voltage for me
Bruce
I am sure I can get you to change your definition
Grab a 9V battery, place it on your tongue, and hold it there for 60 seconds. Then come back and tell me what your definition is
I like to build things with tubes, hence the name "Heater", which has provided quite enough high voltage frights for me alteady.
You are a much braver man than me, I normally use my Fluke
Cool. Give me some examples. Radios?
Then there was a lull for a long time until in recent years I just had to try out hybrid audio amps, triode front ends driving MOSFET power stages. Not tube purist but saves a fortune on output transformers. I also have collection of old AM radios that need fixing up.
Soon I'll be exploring nixies again. Driven from a Propellers of course.
I don't know anything about working tubes. What is the connection between tubes and output transformers?
Bruce
Yep... It is not fun to become the source of the Magic Smoke.
Tubes require high voltages, anode to cathode, to operate. The currents they can carry are not so great. On the other hand typical speakers, 8 ohms say, require much larger currents to get any usefull output. So there is the problem of matching the high output impeadance of the tube amplification to the low impeadance of the speakers. Hence the output transformer.
Or in a hibrid design MOSFETs can act as voltage followers after the tube gain stages to drive high currents to the speakers.