I want more current too, not just volts, but amps, lots and lots of amps..
Bruce, I think your exposure box should win the "that is cool" prize...
Who digitizes their light exposure box??... I like it, and now I want one.
Could you make a new thread about your light box?
I want more current too, not just volts, but amps, lots and lots of amps..
National had switching regulators for 2 and 3A, but I would guess that the Proto Board was designed around the output of the linear regulators. That is why I limited my request to 1A output through the parts I suggested.
Bruce, I think your exposure box should win the "that is cool" prize... Who digitizes their light exposure box??... I like it, and now I want one. Could you make a new thread about your light box?
Well thank you for the compliment. I would be more than happy to share the design plans with the folks here on the forum. This particular project is powered by a BasicSTAMP, so of course I would post it in that forum.
However, I would not go with this design, I intend to build a much smaller one with LEDs. There are several boards available that no longer require a UV light source, and additionally, this particular unit only exposes one side at a time. Double sided LED is the way to go for homebrew. And if you so desire, you can add UV LEDs just to be able to adapt to UV activated boards. And this one is just to big, I will never create an 8 1/2 X 14 size circuit board.
If you are still interested, I will make a new thread for this exposure box. However, it would be real nice if you had TurboCad, then I could send you drawings also.
I agree so much about the need for products with screw termnal interfaces instead of connectors that I had my company contract with one of our regulars to produce some boards for us with screw connectors for the power and serial ports. On a protoboard, I'd just use some 0.1-inch pitch screw connectors; you need a jeweler's screwdriver to operate them but they work quite well and are compatible with all the 0.1-inch pitch prototyping boards. For > 12V power I would just put one of the common inexpensive generic assembled switching supplies on the protoboard as a daughterboard. If it became apparent I would be making more than a few of them, I'd break out ExpressPCB to design a board but I'd probably still use a pre-assembled switching supply as a daughterboard to avoid reinventing a wheel I'm not particularly interested in.
Seems that what you want is often non-off-the-shelf stuff.
This is true, but the reason behind my post was that I would like to see my suggestion become an off the shelf Parallax product.
Approximately two weeks ago, Parallax had a contest for product suggestions. I suggest a product two weeks later and I get blasted with comments like
Oi vey.... you may have an opinion but no grip on economic realities of small businesses like Parallax.
As well as other blastings.
I would die laughing if Parallax actually thought it was a good idea and produced the board in large quantities. I realize it will probably never happen, but it does not change the fact that I would like to see it become an off the shelf product and that it was just an idea that I like.
I can handle the fact that my idea is not gaining much support, but I must have done something to tick one person off. It seems that one person has been riding my back for a while now, and I don't know the specific reason. Oh well, there is a happy summer song that comes to mind
"It's all right now, I learned my lesson well, you can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself, DA DA DA DA"
From what I've seen, Parallax isn't beyond promoting the occasional specialty product. I recall one Nuts & Volts issue where they showcased a propeller-based audio board on the back page. I think it was the AP-16. That's quite a niche product to dedicate that much advertising space to. That board looks like it was designed (and manufactured?) by a third party, EFX-TEK.
Just to be clear, Parallax spent ZERO resources developing that product, that was done by the two of us at EFX-TEK. Yes, Parallax spent money on marketing but a big part of that was not just to market the product itself, but the fact that it is a useful commercial product developed using the the Propeller chip. It's not unfair to call it a specialty product, but it does have fairly broad appeal. It is used by museums, theme parks, haunted houses, artists -- I put it into a Hollywood project last week (along with my custom boards that it isn't worth bothering Parallax or EFX-TEK to try to manufacture). We have just ordered our 4th production run of the AP-16+; the product is doing quite well. We take advantage of the Propeller's architecture to allow in-field updates via the SD card and our customers love this. After a recent trade show I was asked for a feature update. It took a few hours to code and test and we made it available. The Propeller made this possible which is why Parallax is supportive of the AP-16+.
Now, if Bruce's idea is good (and it very well could be), perhaps he should develop it and present it as a finished item to Parallax. That said, it has to be ready to go (which includes documentation, etc.), better yet, ready for them to order. Parallax doesn't have the time or resources to develop everything themselves, but when a really good product using their technologies is presented to them, they tend jump on it (like the AP-16+, not to mention a lot of cool goodies from Phil Pilgrim).
Along those lines, Gadget Gangster already has the alternative wire screw terminals on one of the derivatives of JonnyMac's original Propeller Platform. With a daughter board underneath one can add what ever voltages and regulators one wishes. For me that would be both a 24 VDC and 12 VDC regulator that feeds up to the 5 and 3.3 volt regulators on the propeller platform variants. I have even added extra feed through holes just west of the standard four power connections on each side. As Nick has aptly pointed out, if you are willing to make a sandwich, you can have what ever you want (even if it is just raw perf board stitch wired). I've got a top board in the works that can drain up to 32-channels of up to 208 VDC/100ma/channel. I had four single channel optos on board version zero but have since acquired a single chip with all four inside. that will simplify the next layout. With serial devices on the prop, space for connectors through the enclosure is becoming a bigger concern that just space on the board, especially since it is so easy to stack boards with the excellent JonnyMac/Gadget Ganster pin and socket arrangement. When it comes to screw terminals in a small enclosure I'd have to agree with Local Rodger. WBA consultants sent me some samples of them and I just love them at .1" pitch. All the old factory techs carry the jewelers screw drivers in their Night-Eyes pouch already so it's just not a big deal. Pun intended.
Parallax has minds of their own! They don't need any of us to pre-approve ideas or suggestions. If they think it's a bad idea they won't act on it. But if people are intimidated into not sharing their ideas or suggestions with Parallax then they will suffer. We need to lighten up and encourage ideas and suggestions. Not compete to see who can shoot them down with the most aplomb.
@idbruce, your ideas are just as valid as anyone else's are.
when your motor supply barks, from that sudden ram into the stop, (from your programming mistake) very high voltage sparks back into the dc supply, pop goes the prop.
There's a big difference between having an idea that you think is really neat and widely usable (and maybe widely desired) vs. expecting someone else to share the same feelings to the extent of investing lots of time and money for you on that idea. If you can design something yourself, try it, then, with the finished prototype, you might be able to demonstrate to others why your idea is something they might want. If you don't have enough design skills, use what parts are commercially available to make a functional prototype. If you can demonstrate that there's a demand, possibly by publishing an article on your prototype and seeing what responses there are from readers, you may be able to interest a partner to help with the design. The recent "propose a new product" is another path, but there's no guarantee that Parallax would see your ideas as useful for them. That doesn't mean that it's not going to be useful for anybody, just that Parallax has a pretty good idea of who their customers are and they're always looking for potential ideas that would support that customer base. JonnyMac and EFX-TEK are prime examples. They have their own customer base and, although there's some overlap with Parallax's, the EFX-TEK products are for a mostly different audience.
Let me dream for just a second and let's pretend that Parallax did create such a HV board. It would be a wonderful platform to experiment with all the different stepper drivers, half-bridge, full bridges, etc...
I like the ProtoBoards, but I wish they had a flavor with less Smile on them - I don't use the VGA, keyboard, or mouse connections, so they're just wasted space for me.
A while back, a corporate officer from Parallax told me in a private message that they found my machinery threads very interesting, and that they would be watching it unfold.
So my assumtion is that they might be considering branching into that market.
There's a big difference between finding an effort "very interesting" and "watching it unfold" and committing substantial resources to a new market. Parallax is very generous with support in the form of boards, parts, and advice. They're very generous in supporting (through publicity and marketing) others' enterpreneurial efforts like EFX-TEK, Gadget Gangster, and others. As JonnyMac suggested, they do occasionally carry products designed by others with different financial relationships. The Hydra and Propeller Backpack come immediately to mind. Parallax may indeed think that the CNC market is a good one to get into, but they may choose a completely different functional design that doesn't fit what you need. Build something using what's available and what skills you have. You'll get more attention from Parallax and others and you'll have something that works for you.
Build something using what's available and what skills you have. You'll get more attention from Parallax and others and you'll have something that works for you.
Mike you should know me well enough by now and seen enough of my projects to know that I do that already. I can now create the boards that I am talking about, it is not that major of an issue. However, it would be nice to have an off the shelf Propeller Proto Board HV from Parallax. Their products are of outstanding quality, and I could never make anything of that quality. And yes, I could contract some company to make similar boards, but it would never be a Parallax board.
However, I am sure I will make some just to experiment with, like I said, stepper drivers, half bridges, full bridges, etc...
It is true that I would like to see Parallax create a HV Proto Board without the VGA, keyboard, or mouse connections, but that is not my problem. My current problem is that I need a custom enclosure for a BASIC Stamp OEM project, because off the shelf enclosures don't fit my particular needs. So now it is time to create a custom pattern, melt some aluminum, and due a little sandcasting.
Now that is truly a case of adapting and overcoming a problem. However, the neighbors always look at me a little strangely when I go outside in mid-summer wearing fire resistant clothing and fire up the furnace
LOL Yes it is Mike! Actually some pretty neat stuff. I am going back and forth on whether to make a pattern and pour it, or just bend it out of aluminum sheet. One of those darned if you do and darned if you don't situations. I wish I had a larger piece of angle aluminum when I started this project, then I could have just used a stock project box. I am pretty close to just remaking the project with a larger piece of angle just for that reason. All the parts would be reusable except for the original aluminum angle and I would have to drill some holes and do some press fits, but I am almost at that point. I think it would save me some serious time. However, the project looks pretty nice at this point, in addition to being compact. Decisions, decisions, decisions..
Bruce, for the record I think you're onto something, because there isn't an easy way to do it at present. I also think the prop is a perfect match for CNC controlling. To me operating off the HV supply the easy part of the problem, and if you add the HV drivers and inputs and package it then you have a product I would buy
Ironically when I posted here I was taking a break from cobbling together an urgent industrial solution (late sat night, my favourite time to have to do these things, *not*...) 8 opto inputs, 3 24v outputs, propstick, prop backpack, line scan module etc. Yea I was wishing for something ready to go and if I see something suitable I will usually purchase in advance just to have it on hand for such emergencies.
So thinking about how to move forward on this: Parallax sells a $3 blank proto board which fits over/under the prop proto. How about lining the top and bottom edges with 0.2" green screw terminals. Put optos in along one side (inputs) and your driver transistors along the other (outputs). Add a HV power supply that feeds through to the prop board. I used a Cosel small pcb module that might be suitable for the 24/48 to 5v conversion, or you could roll your own. Once its up and running, use it for a while, share it here, if it proves useful or there is interest it would be easily to turn into a pcb. It should fit one of the lasercut cases parallax sell, or yes do something nice in metal...
I really should keep better track of Parallax's product line. I forgot all about those blank Proto Boards. Thanks for reminding me.
I don't know about everyone else, but to me board and cabinet real estate is very important. So I am not looking for anything fancy, I just want a HV board that I can experiment with and prototype on. I would like to be able to add opto-isolators or drivers as the situation requires for the current setup or experiment. I still believe, even though this particular thread did not have as much support as I expected, that Parallax could get a fair market share of homebrew CNC stepper and motor driver sales with the Propeller chip, but that is not what I want. I want boards to where I can create my motor drivers, just to experiment, and then you might end up with a real nice design to truly commercialize. Like previously stated, a board with screw terminals for power hook up, two switching regulators and necessary components, a Propeller chip, crystal, and EEPROM. That is the board I would like. With that type of board, you have a good starting point and plenty of real estate to add the drivers, opto-isolators, etc....
But I also realize, that everyone else that might like to have an HV board would choose different options, like the ones you mentioned. Perhaps even add a third 9.0V switching regulator to feed a standard Propeller Proto Board from a Propeller Proto Board HV.
Either way, I would like to see a Propeller Proto Board that can accept upto 60VDC or higher.
Have you spoken with Nick? Gadget Gangster exists for stuff like this. If you really believe there is enough market for higher voltage experimenters boards, setup the design and run it through Gadget Gangster. Either, there is that kind of market, or there isn't.
What I'm hearing here though, is you want some basis to build your commercial designs on. That's a different proposition, and one where there might not be all that much support, simply because higher voltages tend to lie outside the mass, casual electronics hobby markets. At the very least, higher operating voltages require some higher level of safety, beyond "just don't let the smoke out", meaning there are costs and liabilities associated that may well make such a board prohibitive.
Example: Would you pay twice as much for such a proto-board? And if so, why not then just have the boards made to accomplish your goal, as well as prove out the market for said boards?
At the very least, higher operating voltages require some higher level of safety, beyond "just don't let the smoke out", meaning there are costs and liabilities associated that may well make such a board prohibitive.
That is a very good point, and perhaps it might be true. I don't know the answer to that one. It might fit into a certain class that requires a different liability policy. 24VDC is probably where it breaks off into another class.
If you really believe there is enough market for higher voltage experimenters boards, setup the design and run it through Gadget Gangster. Either, there is that kind of market, or there isn't.
Yes, I think there is, but I can't say for certain without examining some market research. But I would suppose between robotics and CNC, there should be a market large enough to justify such a board. People are always trying to feed power to their motors. A large amount of your stepper drivers, half bridges, and full bridges can handle the higher voltages. So why not make provisions to make that part of development easier. Somewhere in the future, I will probably spend quite a bit of time delving into motor control, but as for now my hands are full. If necessary, I will design my own boards, but from my standpoint, it sure would be nice to have some BEAUTIFUL Parallax boards to experiment with in the meantime.
Martin Hodge said:
Parallax has minds of their own! They don't need any of us to pre-approve ideas or suggestions. If they think it's a bad idea they won't act on it.
It was just a suggestion, and I hope they like it. If not, I will just have to continue with the way things are for a while. I was just planting a seed.
Like I said, the list is endless, but these are just a few of the chips that I would like to experiment with.
Bruce
EDIT: And if I could get a better grasp on mosfets and current sensing techniques, I would love to create some of my own high voltage stepper drivers from mosfets.
Your idea is not a bad one, *BUT* it is too risky for Parallax, GG, Mikronauts etc to produce without a substantial initial order.
If you are serious about it, and don't want to make the boards yourself, talk to me, Nick, cluso99, jazzed, martinh, mctrivia, leon or half a dozen others here, and put in a minimum order of say 250-500 units at the price the low volume manufacturer agrees to build it at, and expect to pay up front before the boards are made.
Don't expect anyone to make it for a low volume order, or to swallow the development, inventory, and manufacturing costs for a board like this.
Comments
Bruce, I think your exposure box should win the "that is cool" prize...
Who digitizes their light exposure box??... I like it, and now I want one.
Could you make a new thread about your light box?
-Tommy
National had switching regulators for 2 and 3A, but I would guess that the Proto Board was designed around the output of the linear regulators. That is why I limited my request to 1A output through the parts I suggested.
Well thank you for the compliment. I would be more than happy to share the design plans with the folks here on the forum. This particular project is powered by a BasicSTAMP, so of course I would post it in that forum.
However, I would not go with this design, I intend to build a much smaller one with LEDs. There are several boards available that no longer require a UV light source, and additionally, this particular unit only exposes one side at a time. Double sided LED is the way to go for homebrew. And if you so desire, you can add UV LEDs just to be able to adapt to UV activated boards. And this one is just to big, I will never create an 8 1/2 X 14 size circuit board.
If you are still interested, I will make a new thread for this exposure box. However, it would be real nice if you had TurboCad, then I could send you drawings also.
Bruce
I would gladly design a printed circuit board that could preform your needs.
Seems that what you want is often non-off-the-shelf stuff. This is where a guy like me comes in to the picture and solves all the issues.
This is true, but the reason behind my post was that I would like to see my suggestion become an off the shelf Parallax product.
Approximately two weeks ago, Parallax had a contest for product suggestions. I suggest a product two weeks later and I get blasted with comments like
As well as other blastings.
I would die laughing if Parallax actually thought it was a good idea and produced the board in large quantities. I realize it will probably never happen, but it does not change the fact that I would like to see it become an off the shelf product and that it was just an idea that I like.
I'm just hoping it's the summer heat here in the U.S. that is causing what seems like a lower level of civility around here lately.
C.W.
I can handle the fact that my idea is not gaining much support, but I must have done something to tick one person off. It seems that one person has been riding my back for a while now, and I don't know the specific reason. Oh well, there is a happy summer song that comes to mind
"It's all right now, I learned my lesson well, you can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself, DA DA DA DA"
Just to be clear, Parallax spent ZERO resources developing that product, that was done by the two of us at EFX-TEK. Yes, Parallax spent money on marketing but a big part of that was not just to market the product itself, but the fact that it is a useful commercial product developed using the the Propeller chip. It's not unfair to call it a specialty product, but it does have fairly broad appeal. It is used by museums, theme parks, haunted houses, artists -- I put it into a Hollywood project last week (along with my custom boards that it isn't worth bothering Parallax or EFX-TEK to try to manufacture). We have just ordered our 4th production run of the AP-16+; the product is doing quite well. We take advantage of the Propeller's architecture to allow in-field updates via the SD card and our customers love this. After a recent trade show I was asked for a feature update. It took a few hours to code and test and we made it available. The Propeller made this possible which is why Parallax is supportive of the AP-16+.
Now, if Bruce's idea is good (and it very well could be), perhaps he should develop it and present it as a finished item to Parallax. That said, it has to be ready to go (which includes documentation, etc.), better yet, ready for them to order. Parallax doesn't have the time or resources to develop everything themselves, but when a really good product using their technologies is presented to them, they tend jump on it (like the AP-16+, not to mention a lot of cool goodies from Phil Pilgrim).
@idbruce, your ideas are just as valid as anyone else's are.
You stated that very well. I can certainly appreciate and agree with that point of view.
Thank You.
Bruce
Let me dream for just a second and let's pretend that Parallax did create such a HV board. It would be a wonderful platform to experiment with all the different stepper drivers, half-bridge, full bridges, etc...
Bruce
1ST EDIT: And a lot of robotic and CNC projects rely on these devices.
2ND EDIT: Additionally, if such a HV board were created, I would agree with JasonDorie in Post #14 of the following thread http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?129041-Propeller-on-a-breadboard, and I quote,
So my assumtion is that they might be considering branching into that market.
Mike you should know me well enough by now and seen enough of my projects to know that I do that already. I can now create the boards that I am talking about, it is not that major of an issue. However, it would be nice to have an off the shelf Propeller Proto Board HV from Parallax. Their products are of outstanding quality, and I could never make anything of that quality. And yes, I could contract some company to make similar boards, but it would never be a Parallax board.
However, I am sure I will make some just to experiment with, like I said, stepper drivers, half bridges, full bridges, etc...
Bruce
It is true that I would like to see Parallax create a HV Proto Board without the VGA, keyboard, or mouse connections, but that is not my problem. My current problem is that I need a custom enclosure for a BASIC Stamp OEM project, because off the shelf enclosures don't fit my particular needs. So now it is time to create a custom pattern, melt some aluminum, and due a little sandcasting.
Now that is truly a case of adapting and overcoming a problem. However, the neighbors always look at me a little strangely when I go outside in mid-summer wearing fire resistant clothing and fire up the furnace
Bruce
LOL Yes it is Mike! Actually some pretty neat stuff. I am going back and forth on whether to make a pattern and pour it, or just bend it out of aluminum sheet. One of those darned if you do and darned if you don't situations. I wish I had a larger piece of angle aluminum when I started this project, then I could have just used a stock project box. I am pretty close to just remaking the project with a larger piece of angle just for that reason. All the parts would be reusable except for the original aluminum angle and I would have to drill some holes and do some press fits, but I am almost at that point. I think it would save me some serious time. However, the project looks pretty nice at this point, in addition to being compact. Decisions, decisions, decisions..
Bruce
Bruce
Ironically when I posted here I was taking a break from cobbling together an urgent industrial solution (late sat night, my favourite time to have to do these things, *not*...) 8 opto inputs, 3 24v outputs, propstick, prop backpack, line scan module etc. Yea I was wishing for something ready to go and if I see something suitable I will usually purchase in advance just to have it on hand for such emergencies.
So thinking about how to move forward on this: Parallax sells a $3 blank proto board which fits over/under the prop proto. How about lining the top and bottom edges with 0.2" green screw terminals. Put optos in along one side (inputs) and your driver transistors along the other (outputs). Add a HV power supply that feeds through to the prop board. I used a Cosel small pcb module that might be suitable for the 24/48 to 5v conversion, or you could roll your own. Once its up and running, use it for a while, share it here, if it proves useful or there is interest it would be easily to turn into a pcb. It should fit one of the lasercut cases parallax sell, or yes do something nice in metal...
I really should keep better track of Parallax's product line. I forgot all about those blank Proto Boards. Thanks for reminding me.
I don't know about everyone else, but to me board and cabinet real estate is very important. So I am not looking for anything fancy, I just want a HV board that I can experiment with and prototype on. I would like to be able to add opto-isolators or drivers as the situation requires for the current setup or experiment. I still believe, even though this particular thread did not have as much support as I expected, that Parallax could get a fair market share of homebrew CNC stepper and motor driver sales with the Propeller chip, but that is not what I want. I want boards to where I can create my motor drivers, just to experiment, and then you might end up with a real nice design to truly commercialize. Like previously stated, a board with screw terminals for power hook up, two switching regulators and necessary components, a Propeller chip, crystal, and EEPROM. That is the board I would like. With that type of board, you have a good starting point and plenty of real estate to add the drivers, opto-isolators, etc....
But I also realize, that everyone else that might like to have an HV board would choose different options, like the ones you mentioned. Perhaps even add a third 9.0V switching regulator to feed a standard Propeller Proto Board from a Propeller Proto Board HV.
Either way, I would like to see a Propeller Proto Board that can accept upto 60VDC or higher.
Bruce
What I'm hearing here though, is you want some basis to build your commercial designs on. That's a different proposition, and one where there might not be all that much support, simply because higher voltages tend to lie outside the mass, casual electronics hobby markets. At the very least, higher operating voltages require some higher level of safety, beyond "just don't let the smoke out", meaning there are costs and liabilities associated that may well make such a board prohibitive.
Example: Would you pay twice as much for such a proto-board? And if so, why not then just have the boards made to accomplish your goal, as well as prove out the market for said boards?
That is a very good point, and perhaps it might be true. I don't know the answer to that one. It might fit into a certain class that requires a different liability policy. 24VDC is probably where it breaks off into another class.
Yes, I think there is, but I can't say for certain without examining some market research. But I would suppose between robotics and CNC, there should be a market large enough to justify such a board. People are always trying to feed power to their motors. A large amount of your stepper drivers, half bridges, and full bridges can handle the higher voltages. So why not make provisions to make that part of development easier. Somewhere in the future, I will probably spend quite a bit of time delving into motor control, but as for now my hands are full. If necessary, I will design my own boards, but from my standpoint, it sure would be nice to have some BEAUTIFUL Parallax boards to experiment with in the meantime.
Martin Hodge said:
It was just a suggestion, and I hope they like it. If not, I will just have to continue with the way things are for a while. I was just planting a seed.
Bruce
The list is endless, but I will name a few:
L6203 Full Bridge Driver - 42VDC Max
L298 Dual Full Bridge Driver - 46VDC max
L6201 Full Bridge Driver - 42VDC Max
L6208 Stepper Motor Driver - 52VDC Max
Like I said, the list is endless, but these are just a few of the chips that I would like to experiment with.
Bruce
EDIT: And if I could get a better grasp on mosfets and current sensing techniques, I would love to create some of my own high voltage stepper drivers from mosfets.
Your idea is not a bad one, *BUT* it is too risky for Parallax, GG, Mikronauts etc to produce without a substantial initial order.
If you are serious about it, and don't want to make the boards yourself, talk to me, Nick, cluso99, jazzed, martinh, mctrivia, leon or half a dozen others here, and put in a minimum order of say 250-500 units at the price the low volume manufacturer agrees to build it at, and expect to pay up front before the boards are made.
Don't expect anyone to make it for a low volume order, or to swallow the development, inventory, and manufacturing costs for a board like this.