Seems there's a difference of opinion about the 32k...
I still think it's a big mistake... Here's the way I look at it:
The need for the external eeprom is honestly a downside to the Prop.
But, the fact that you can make it a 64k eeprom for 25 cents more, turns this negative into a positive.
Now, you have room for bigger programs, datalogging, data storage, etc.
BTW: Another use I'm looking at that I don't think anybody has done yet, is to use the upper 32k as temporary storage for a new program coming in serially...
The whole 32k can be transfered and checked before moving it to the lower 32k and rebooting...
Seems there's a difference of opinion about the 32k...
I still think it's a big mistake... Here's the way I look at it:
The need for the external eeprom is honestly a downside to the Prop.
But, the fact that you can make it a 64k eeprom for 25 cents more, turns this negative into a positive.
Now, you have room for bigger programs, datalogging, data storage, etc.
BTW: Another use I'm looking at that I don't think anybody has done yet, is to use the upper 32k as temporary storage for a new program coming in serially...
The whole 32k can be transfered and checked before moving it to the lower 32k and rebooting...
I agree with you completely Rayman on the mistake of not having a 64K EEPROM. The PropellerJVM can read/run programs from the upper 32K using a cache - did that last year. The linker is a little troublesome now though. I've also run "spin programs" from the upper 32K - there were constraints. I expect other languages can seriously benefit from the 64K part as well.
The problem with using EEPROM is one of speed of course. It is useful, but can be slow. As long as the code is cached it's ok, but having to load from the slow EEPROM backstore makes things difficult. This is the primary motivator for my pursuing the DIP32 SpinSocket-Flash which is actually faster than the SDRAM solution and much cheaper.
The other mistake is taking a loss selling $20 boards unless the entire small player Propeller solution integrator ecosystem *needs to be destroyed.* PropSticks are on sale BTW Why would anyone buy a PropStick for $80 when a QuickStart can be had for $20? Small players charging more than $20 for even a value add board look really greedy by comparison.
The other mistake is taking a loss selling $20 boards unless the entire small player Propeller solution integrator ecosystem *needs to be destroyed.* PropSticks are on sale BTW Why would anyone buy a PropStick for $80 when a QuickStart can be had for $20? Small players charging more than $20 for even a value add board look really greedy by comparison.
Or that's a good reason to have limitations on the QuickStart board. I don't think Parallax is trying to sell a module that people will use in their applications (although it's certainly a possibility), they're trying to provide a quick way for people to start playing with the Prop. A QuickStart with all the features everyone wants at $20 would remove the market for a lot of products from Parallax and other manufacturers.
I would have liked it to have a larger EEPROM, but I'm ok with what it has. Let it be an introductory board and not intended to be part of a "production" device.
Someone can easily come along and design and manufacture another board using the same form factor and header with more features (probably leaving off the touch pads and LEDs). This can have a larger EEPROM or different memory format if desired. It probably won't come in at $20, though.
There's also room for "app modules" which can plug into this board to add hardware to demonstrate different features of the Prop. A memory board is certainly one option. Video outputs are another.
I get what your saying, and I agree to a point especially on creating a board that can be of more general use.
The problem is that having a an overwhelming plethora supply of cheap boards (economics 101) with small EEPROM is not conducive to innovations such as overcoming some of Propellers memory limits and fetching/running programs straight from eeprom.
Or that's a good reason to have limitations on the QuickStart board. I don't think Parallax is trying to sell a module that people will use in their applications (although it's certainly a possibility), they're trying to provide a quick way for people to start playing with the Prop. A QuickStart with all the features everyone wants at $20 would remove the market for a lot of products from Parallax and other manufacturers.
I would have liked it to have a larger EEPROM, but I'm ok with what it has. Let it be an introductory board and not intended to be part of a "production" device.
Someone can easily come along and design and manufacture another board using the same form factor and header with more features (probably leaving off the touch pads and LEDs). This can have a larger EEPROM or different memory format if desired. It probably won't come in at $20, though.
There's also room for "app modules" which can plug into this board to add hardware to demonstrate different features of the Prop. A memory board is certainly one option. Video outputs are another.
It is official; we are making all future P8X32A QuickStart boards with a 64 KB EEPROM. Contrary to popular belief, we don't lose money on each P8X32A QuickStart that we sell. (We don't make money either.) We can squeeze in the 64 KB upgrade without going over budget. We should have the new ones in stock this week.
The majority of the QuickStart users wouldn't use it, but it is extremely useful for those who will use it. It would also be necessary if we write an application note about writing a bootloader and storing the target program in the upper 32 KB of EEPROM.
If anyone currently has a QuickStart board, and would prefer to have one with the 64 KB EEPROM, let our sales depart know through email at sales@parallax.com or on the phone at 1-888-512-1024 and we will "exchange" it free of charge. It is not a typical exchange though, because instead of giving us back the old one, we would prefer that you give it to someone else who could use it, especially someone that hasn't had much contact with the Propeller microcontroller.
Given the QuickStart's marketing objectives, I hadn't thought such a design upgrade would be necessary. But now that you mention the bootloader issue, I believe it to be the right decision after all. 'Good call!
Given the QuickStart's marketing objectives, I hadn't thought such a design upgrade would be necessary. But now that you mention the bootloader issue, I believe it to be the right decision after all. 'Good call!
It is official; we are making all future P8X32A QuickStart boards with a 64 KB EEPROM. ... snip...
If anyone currently has a QuickStart board, and would prefer to have one with the 64 KB EEPROM, let our sales depart know through email at sales@parallax.com or on the phone at 1-888-512-1024 and we will "exchange" it free of charge. It is not a typical exchange though, because instead of giving us back the old one, we would prefer that you give it to someone else who could use it, especially someone that hasn't had much contact with the Propeller microcontroller.
Thank you,
David Carrier
Parallax Inc.
WOW, what a great company!
While the 3 boards I ordered needed the additional KBs for the project I had in mind, I'll just find another use and order more with the larger size EEPROM. No need for the "free" offer but the offer is another example of how Parallax treats their customers.
You just do not find companies like Parallax every day. Thanks.
I'd use ChipQuik instead of desolder braid, it's much safer.
Leon not to change the subject but I went to buy the ChipQuick I am confused is there a kit or is this flux in a tube??? can you recommend a complete kit? thanks
Comments
I still think it's a big mistake... Here's the way I look at it:
The need for the external eeprom is honestly a downside to the Prop.
But, the fact that you can make it a 64k eeprom for 25 cents more, turns this negative into a positive.
Now, you have room for bigger programs, datalogging, data storage, etc.
BTW: Another use I'm looking at that I don't think anybody has done yet, is to use the upper 32k as temporary storage for a new program coming in serially...
The whole 32k can be transfered and checked before moving it to the lower 32k and rebooting...
I agree with you completely Rayman on the mistake of not having a 64K EEPROM. The PropellerJVM can read/run programs from the upper 32K using a cache - did that last year. The linker is a little troublesome now though. I've also run "spin programs" from the upper 32K - there were constraints. I expect other languages can seriously benefit from the 64K part as well.
The problem with using EEPROM is one of speed of course. It is useful, but can be slow. As long as the code is cached it's ok, but having to load from the slow EEPROM backstore makes things difficult. This is the primary motivator for my pursuing the DIP32 SpinSocket-Flash which is actually faster than the SDRAM solution and much cheaper.
The other mistake is taking a loss selling $20 boards unless the entire small player Propeller solution integrator ecosystem *needs to be destroyed.* PropSticks are on sale BTW Why would anyone buy a PropStick for $80 when a QuickStart can be had for $20? Small players charging more than $20 for even a value add board look really greedy by comparison.
Or that's a good reason to have limitations on the QuickStart board. I don't think Parallax is trying to sell a module that people will use in their applications (although it's certainly a possibility), they're trying to provide a quick way for people to start playing with the Prop. A QuickStart with all the features everyone wants at $20 would remove the market for a lot of products from Parallax and other manufacturers.
I would have liked it to have a larger EEPROM, but I'm ok with what it has. Let it be an introductory board and not intended to be part of a "production" device.
Someone can easily come along and design and manufacture another board using the same form factor and header with more features (probably leaving off the touch pads and LEDs). This can have a larger EEPROM or different memory format if desired. It probably won't come in at $20, though.
There's also room for "app modules" which can plug into this board to add hardware to demonstrate different features of the Prop. A memory board is certainly one option. Video outputs are another.
The problem is that having a an overwhelming plethora supply of cheap boards (economics 101) with small EEPROM is not conducive to innovations such as overcoming some of Propellers memory limits and fetching/running programs straight from eeprom.
The majority of the QuickStart users wouldn't use it, but it is extremely useful for those who will use it. It would also be necessary if we write an application note about writing a bootloader and storing the target program in the upper 32 KB of EEPROM.
If anyone currently has a QuickStart board, and would prefer to have one with the 64 KB EEPROM, let our sales depart know through email at sales@parallax.com or on the phone at 1-888-512-1024 and we will "exchange" it free of charge. It is not a typical exchange though, because instead of giving us back the old one, we would prefer that you give it to someone else who could use it, especially someone that hasn't had much contact with the Propeller microcontroller.
Thank you,
David Carrier
Parallax Inc.
Given the QuickStart's marketing objectives, I hadn't thought such a design upgrade would be necessary. But now that you mention the bootloader issue, I believe it to be the right decision after all. 'Good call!
-Phil
I'm not going to complain either.
Thank you David (and Parallax) for this decision.
WOW, what a great company!
While the 3 boards I ordered needed the additional KBs for the project I had in mind, I'll just find another use and order more with the larger size EEPROM. No need for the "free" offer but the offer is another example of how Parallax treats their customers.
You just do not find companies like Parallax every day. Thanks.
Parallax just gets better each time. Thanks!
It really gives you a good feeling to see that a company is willing to put customer's ahead of profits.
Maybe this first batch will be a collectors item one day. Very rare.
Although I'd like to have the 64K EEPROM, I think I'll just mark these two and use them as is.
Bean
Leon not to change the subject but I went to buy the ChipQuick I am confused is there a kit or is this flux in a tube??? can you recommend a complete kit? thanks
http://www.chipquik.com/store/prod_smd1.htm
It's got everything you need.
Which 64 KB EEPROM is Parallax going with for the upgrade?