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WARNING: Quickstart board has a 32K EEPROM not a 64K — Parallax Forums

WARNING: Quickstart board has a 32K EEPROM not a 64K

BeanBean Posts: 8,129
edited 2011-06-14 13:46 in Propeller 1
Just a heads-up to everyone...
The Quickstart board has a 32K EEPROM not a 64K like the specifications say.
The schematic IS correct.

Might want to correct that Ken.

Bean
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Comments

  • WurlitzerWurlitzer Posts: 237
    edited 2011-06-10 07:36
    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! I just received 3 boards yesterday and if this is the case they will not work for the intended application. I use that upper 32k for a series of configuration constants. Nice board, nice packaging but a major error ID'd way too late in the game.
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2011-06-10 07:51
    Thanks for the heads-up.

    Quite annoying; the two I ordered have already been shipped.

    Edit: I will post the size of the eeproms after I receive the boards...
    Bean wrote: »
    Just a heads-up to everyone...
    The Quickstart board has a 32K EEPROM not a 64K like the specifications say.
    The schematic IS correct.

    Might want to correct that Ken.

    Bean
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2011-06-10 08:03
    Bean wrote: »
    Just a heads-up to everyone...
    The Quickstart board has a 32K EEPROM not a 64K like the specifications say.
    The schematic IS correct.

    Might want to correct that Ken.

    Bean

    If this is really true of all of the boards shipped so far and not just a fluke with the one you got it seems like it would be better to fix the problem by making sure future boards ship with 64k EEPROMs rather than just changing the documentation. The extra 32k is a useful feature it would be too bad to lose. I suppose that would mean Parallax would have to offer to replace any 32k boards that shipped by mistake though.
  • caskazcaskaz Posts: 957
    edited 2011-06-10 08:14
    Hi Bean.
    You are correct. It's 32k-eeprom.
  • David CarrierDavid Carrier Posts: 294
    edited 2011-06-10 08:56
    The error is in the web page. The design was intended to be built with the 32 KB EEPROM. We are more or less selling the boards at cost, so we kept the build costs as low as we could. This design goal is why there are no through-hole parts and it contributed to the implementation of the no-cost resistive touch buttons.

    That being said, we did mess up on the published specifications, so you may not have received a board with all of the features that you expected. If this is the case send me a private message or send an email to [URL="email:support@parallax.com"]support@parallax.com[/URL] and I'll see what I can do.

    As for building the QuickStarts with a 64 KB EEPROM, the BOM cost difference is about 25¢, which is a small amount, but those little differences add up quickly. It looks like there is enough room in the cost to switch to the more expensive 64 KB EEPROM, but all of the 64 KB EEPROMs we have in stock are allocated to the Spinneret Web Servers. I'll check with our manufacturing department and see if they have already used all of them. If not, we may be able to get the next batch built with larger 64 KB EEPROMs.

    — David Carrier
    Parallax Inc.
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2011-06-10 09:42
    David,
    Thanks for the explaination. I prefixed my post with "WARNING" knowing that some people planned to use the Quickstart for applications that required 64K.
    I certainly don't think a 64K EEPROM is a requirement, but it sure would be nice ;)

    Bean
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2011-06-10 09:47
    Users requiring a 64k device could replace it quite easily.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-06-10 09:57
    David,

    Just as an FYI: I remember that the 64K vs. 32K cost issue came up during the development of the S2 robot. At the time, and because the parts were being sourced offshore, it was cheaper to use two 32K EEPROMs than a single 64K device, which is why the S2 has two EEPROM chips. Of course, that was last year, and things may be different now due to more recent pricing or domestic sourcing.

    -Phil
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2011-06-10 10:12
    So. Whats the simplest way top add more EEPROM? I have a few 32k EEPROMS swapped out from other boards, and I have pile 16k harvested from junk.
    This isn't for a project, I just want to use the extra parts for the parctice.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2011-06-10 10:18
    Thanks for the heads up Bean.

    I just received four boards yesterday. I also received four USB Propeller Proto boards. The QuickStart board looks like it uses EEPROM by Microchip. The Proto board uses Atmel chips.

    The Proto board EEPROM has printed on it "13 A AT512". The QuickStart has "4LD I629 M OJP". I figure the "512" is for 512 bits on the Atmel chip. Is there anything on he Microchip chip to indicate its size? I'm sure the data sheet explains it, but it would be nice if Microchip had "256" printed on the chip.

    @Leon, I hope you're right. I know I have several 64K EEPROMs of the correct package size. I think I have an adapter with a small opening for my hot air station. I've never tried to replace anything but a Prop chip with hot air before. And no, I don't have any QuickChip (I think that's what it's called). I should get some sometime.

    Now to tryout my new QuickStart board.

    Edit: I misread the characters on the QuickStart EEPROM as "4LD 1629 M DJP". Corrected above.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-06-10 10:34
    Prof_braino,

    You could piggy-back one of your 32K devices atop the one that's there. Just parallel all the pins except A0, which gets connected to Vdd.

    Note: Two 32K devices are not addressed the same as one 64K device. With two devices, the upper 32K get addressed in the control byte, not the address high byte.

    -Phil
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2011-06-10 10:39
    Providing at least 64K EEPROM allows much more flexibility. That allows using all of Propeller's 48K RAM without playing external download games.

    Propeller suffers from lack of hub memory. Having to keep COG code in hub memory makes the lack of HUB memory unnecessarily worse.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2011-06-10 10:40
    I second Leon's suggestion. It would take 5 minutes to swap out the part. Some Solder Wick and a new part. $2.20.

    http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=24LC512-I/ST14-ND
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2011-06-10 10:54
    prof_braino wrote: »
    So. Whats the simplest way top add more EEPROM?

    Here's a way. It's certainly not the easiest. I suppose it could also be used with the QuickStart board. (There, now I'm not off topic.:smile:)

    I had some extra EEPROMs that were the same package size as used with the Proto boards (and QuickStart boards). I added a second EEPROM right on top of the first. I just tied one of the address pins high so it had a different address than the original EEPROM. I've attached a picture from my very dusty robot.

    I've also attached a picture of the QuickStart's EEPROM. Those characters are hard to read. It wasn't until I saw the "super macro" photo that I realized I had misread several of the characters.

    Duane

    Edit: I see Phil suggested this while I was taking a picture of my piggybacked EEPROM.
    EepromPiggyback.png
    618 x 506 - 726K
    EepromQuickStart.png
    813 x 453 - 637K
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2011-06-10 11:10
    I'd use ChipQuik instead of desolder braid, it's much safer.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2011-06-10 11:27
    Leon wrote: »
    I'd use ChipQuik instead of desolder braid, it's much safer.

    Leon, you are probably correct, but I have been using Solder Wick since the 80's and I think most people have that on hand.

    I do have ChipQuik on my next order. Looking forward to using it. You did bring this nice product to our attention.

    ERROR: I posted the 14 pin EEPROM part. Here is the 8 pin part, (even cheaper :) :

    http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=24LC512T-I/SMTR-ND
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,876
    edited 2011-06-10 12:27
    That chip is easy to desolder... Just put a bunch of solder on both sides so that you can heat up all the pins one a side a once. Heat up one side, then quickly heat up the other side and push it off the pads.
    Then, use braid or wick to clean it up...

    BTW: I think it's a major mistake not to have used 64kB chips when so many cool things (Like Catalina) use it.
    I think you could change those blue leds to red and save the 25 cents there....
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2011-06-10 15:17
    Thanks Duane and Phil. I will try the piggy back method.

    If one did go the swap out the part method, could a larger than 64K eeprom be used?
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,452
    edited 2011-06-10 15:39
    Rayman: I think you could change those blue leds to red and save the 25 cents there.

    But... but... red LED's are so 20th century!

    I see both sides of the EE thing. QuickStart is suitable for some much more impressive uses with the extra 32K, but then again it is close to a loss leader already, and how many people other than us even notice the extra 32K on say protoboards on a regular basis?
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,452
    edited 2011-06-10 15:40
    prof_braino: If one did go the swap out the part method, could a larger than 64K eeprom be used?

    I think the Atmel 1024 kbit / 128 kbyte part should work there. I'm using them as direct replacements in thru-hole boards.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-06-10 15:42
    An AT24C1024 would probably work okay. The "A0" pin is a NC, so connecting it to Vss is not an issue. The device is addressed as if it were two 64K devices in the same package.

    -Phil
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2011-06-10 18:26
    IMHO it is a loss leader to give potential professional users an idea of the potential of the prop, including its minimal circuitry required.

    Yes, we all want 64KB EPROMs, but we are not the real intended target. For the sake of repeating myself, the target is clearly the new potential professional users of the prop. For that reason, the circuit needs to be minimal. Engineers are going to cost the minimum configuration. That 25c difference could be all the difference between the prop getting the job or another chip.

    So, I say, keep the 32KB EEPROM and change the specs. We can all resolve the problem by adding another EEPROM, or replacing the EEPROM.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2011-06-10 19:58
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    IMHO it is a loss leader to give potential professional users an idea of the potential of the prop, including its minimal circuitry required.

    Yes, we all want 64KB EPROMs, but we are not the real intended target. For the sake of repeating myself, the target is clearly the new potential professional users of the prop. For that reason, the circuit needs to be minimal. Engineers are going to cost the minimum configuration. That 25c difference could be all the difference between the prop getting the job or another chip.

    So, I say, keep the 32KB EEPROM and change the specs. We can all resolve the problem by adding another EEPROM, or replacing the EEPROM.

    I agree with you to some extent but I'm looking at this from a software point of view. If I'm going to write software for the QuickStart board I only want to target the stock board and not some configuration that requires replacing a chip or adding another chip. That will limit my audience too much. So, unless they build the next batch with the 64k EEPROMs as stated in the current product description, I have to assume that no QuickStart board has any more than 32k. Of course, I doubt any of these commercial customers will want to use a Basic interpreter anyway. :-)
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2011-06-10 21:03
    David Betz wrote: »
    Of course, I doubt any of these commercial customers will want to use a Basic interpreter anyway. :-)

    David, what Basic intereter are you using ?

    Have you tried PE-Basic ?

    Bean
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2011-06-11 05:25
    Bean wrote: »
    David, what Basic intereter are you using ?

    Have you tried PE-Basic ?

    Bean

    I'm still working on my own Basic interpreter called xbasic. I started it back when I was a "democoder" for Andre' LaMothe for his XGS PIC and XGS AVR products and then continued it on the Chameleon PIC and Chameleon AVR and am now working on it for the C3. At the moment it consists of a bytecode compiler that runs on the PC and a PASM VM that runs on the Propeller and a downloader. I've also run the compiler on the Propeller as well using Catalina C but the performance wasn't really good enough on the C3. The sources for this interpreter were included in the "samples" directory for my version of Heater's GCC/ZPU/ZOG system. It's main claim to fame (or infamy) is that it can run programs from external memory to escape the 32k hub memory size limitation. I'm currently working on adding cognew/coginit to allow xbasic programs to load PASM drivers into other COGs.

    However, I should try your PE-Basic and also PropBasic. I've wanted to look at PropBasic for a while but I haven't found where to download the sources. Are they available or is it only available as part of BST?
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2011-06-11 06:48
    David,
    Here is the source for PE-Basic (which is written in PropBasic). And the compiled .spin files for the Serial Termial compiled version.

    The Delphi source code for PropBasic is not open-source, but I'll e-mail it to you if you send me a PM with your e-mail address.

    PropBasic is a compiler that runs under BST.

    PE-Basic is an interpreter that is fully contained on the propeller. You can set options to make a the following versions:
    Serial terminal
    Keyboard, TV
    Telnet (Spinneret)

    Bean
    zip
    zip
    PE-Basic Terminal Version.zip
    57K
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2011-06-11 07:02
    Thanks for the PE-Basic sources. I don't have Delphi so I guess the PropBasic sources won't help me. Thanks for offering though!
  • Kevin WoodKevin Wood Posts: 1,266
    edited 2011-06-11 08:04
    David Betz wrote:
    Thanks for the PE-Basic sources. I don't have Delphi so I guess the PropBasic sources won't help me. Thanks for offering though!

    My guess is that it compiles fine with Lazarus/Free Pascal, since you can download the compiler for Windows/OSX/Linux.
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2011-06-11 08:59
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    an idea of the potential of the prop, including its minimal circuitry required.
    keep the 32KB EEPROM and change the specs. ... (individual user) adding another EEPROM, or replacing the EEPROM.

    I agree. Half the fun is finding out that even I can modify components on the board, which is kind of a big deal to a software-only guy. Previously, my control of the hardware configuration ended at the on/off switch.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-06-11 13:16
    After looking at a newly-arrived QuickStart board and again at its schematic, I really don't see an issue with the 32K EEPROM. Both SDA and SCL are brought out to the header connector and its equivalent through-hole pattern, and the needed pads are close together:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=82038&d=1307823261

    More EEPROM (along with other I2C devices) could easily be accommodated (with through-hole parts, even) on an external mezzanine board.

    -Phil
    QS_EEPROM.gif
    231 x 397 - 17K
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