I think the original poster is missing the point of a powerful tool like the propeller. That said, the fact is that it is easier for a new person to get started on an arduino than a propeller. There are easier language alternatives but you have to find them and make a selection. This of course neglects the incredible ease of the OBEX objects and their powerful and simple mechanism of including them in your own projects.
I'm probably going to keep my "What is a Microcontroller?" kit just to learn on. I'm debating selling the "Getting Started" demoboard because I have a different vision and it irks me.
Interesting to watch the debate as a relative newcommer - I've had a look at Arduino and am toying with moving from my Stamps to Propeller:
I make quite a virtue out of doing things on the Cheap - most of my stamps are 2nd hand from ebay - I just got 2 new BS 2PX for £38 GBP - which I thought value, I do think there is a point about theLCD display - a quick look on ebay again will find a variety of sources happy to send you an LCD for about £3.50 GBP
So I get my Parallax stamps and shop around - Parallax do the decent thing by telling you what they supply, and if you choose to source them elsewhere cheaper - then that's cool.
Example IR remote for the BOE bot $33 dollars - got an IR remote from my local pound shop an IR detector for £1.89. this left a few bits of wire and a 220 Ohm resistor - I make that under $5 when converted to US dollars as opposed to $33 and shipping charges, from your goodselves - so why the difference !
It's obvious isn't it ? ... The bit I missed out - a brilliant manual (which I got free of charge courtesy of yourselves, plus your brilliant support. You give your very best away for free - I almost feel guilty using your downloads.
I've seen the alternative and IT STINKS - I've still got scars from trying to build with straight PICs no support and a bunch of crappy examples which don't work, so you don't know if it's your code, your kit or your assembly thats up the creek - I work in IT services and I know this isn't cheap to produce. Having blown £99 on bits for my pic project I barely managed to get beyond a winking LED. With my first BS2 I was just stunned by the progress I made - saving money only works if the solution works.
So I won't be buying my LCD screens or IR detectors from parallax - there are hardware suppliers who out compete in this, but I will be buying my "Propellor getting started kit" from you - just because I know I'll be guided through what I need to do without being treated like a dummy or blinded by people who think that human beings communicate in an admixture of hexadecimal and Nerd!
This is the Parallax USP, and long may you prosper, but I do think you're missing a trick by giving it away. Surely a nominal price to download your publications would not be outrageous (I'd not gripe too much). they are after all simply the best put together in their field. I actually use my copy of "what's a microcontroller" as an example to some of my technical writers when they need to see how it should be done.
Where did you you buy your PIC kit? Microchip supplies excellent kits and their support is about the best in the industry. There are vast amounts of code on their web site for virtually every application you can think of.
Maplins (should have known better I guess, but I was naive at the time) - It was pants ! development board (nice ZIF connector for the chip - wish the BOE had that would save a few bent pins) - copy of "PIC in practice" and a few PICS about a dozen worked examples but all based on the initial one which didn't work.
I have to say it was a couple of years back and put me off doing anything with microcontrollers for some time.
Support site for the book was no longer supported and down. the circuitry didn't work as shown in the book and neither did the code - all machine code, so gobbledegook to the likes of me I could go on.
It's not a persuasive argument to say that all Parallax has going for it is the Propeller...It's like saying "All Ford has going for it is the 'Model T'... Saddle up!"
The Prop has eight cores and I have no plans to learn how to code interupts. Since '08' I've created two patentable machines and I'll shortly start work on a 3rd. I only accomplished that because of the support of the Parallax community and company. You will not find better support than Parallax.
"Some men you just can't reach"
'
If your not happy with the Parallax stuff
'
Why make a new post on the Parallax forums to denounce Parallax micros ?
'
Why not just fade off into another " http://microjohndoe.com " forum ?
'
Unless you have a hidden agenda, Like promoting another micro.
'
What ever the case
'
SEE YA
"Some men you just can't reach"
'
If your not happy with the Parallax stuff
'
Why make a new post on the Parallax forums to denounce Parallax micros ?
I don't know what their motive or intention was. I just try to accept what people say or there would be no reason to believe anybody and there would be no reason to talk to anybody.
The propeller was suggested to me because we were looking for a video chip and I knew that it could do video.
Some of the people in the forum like me want a retro computer so they are looking at available chips and some of them are microcontrollers. It is probably unfair that we want a processor.
Some of us have a different way of thinking; in theory the 6502 could address 64K and the Motorolla 68000 was a successor to many of the computer wars.
So basically after looking for two years, the propeller is fulfilling the microcontroller market. The way we're being unfair is that some users just want many easy tutorials, low cost, lots of i/o, modular designs that are compatible, lots of available memory and it helps if the chip can compete with video that you would see from a retro computer. The users are here because they are getting support here that they wouldn't get from assembling other computer designs from scratch. Because different people want different things, I don't know if the prop will be everything to everybody but it will fill its designed range and other people will push it to its limits. If you were to research Amiga on the wikipedia page you will find years went by between models because it takes time to design and develop both hardware, operating systems and software between models. I think that there is a lot that Arduino isn't doing for $30 that Amiga did and Amiga still went bankrupt. So hats off to a company that is still here like Parallax.
I suppose some of us feel we have to leave one microcontroller behind in order to take on another. After all, there is so much to learn about so many different devices. A feeling that we don't have the time or can't think in terms of more than a few devices tends to creep in. But I suspect that many a person that feels the need to leave the Propeller behind will come back to it at some later date. It just has too much to offer to be completely dismissed.
But I have to admit, I too tend to 'throw the baby out with the bath water' as part of my creative process. But I have learned that I have this rather dramatic tendency, so I just box up things and set them aside to be dealt with at another time, maybe even a few years down the road.
It really is no big deal. I tend to take the engineer's generic kind of view and I am always on the lookout for a different concept or a superior new device. The fact that the Propeller is so different from anything else out there has made me both love and hate it. In other words, it teaches a heck of a lot more than the average microcontroller with the average industrial approach because it doesn't conform to such.
Recently I bought quite a bit from a fellow that dumped all his SX chips and related stuff. He felt the SX was no longer of use, that the Propeller had replaced it. But I still feel that there are times that one CPU is enough to do the job and the SX is more flexible that others for those tasks.
So, when you really understand the utility of the device - you never really can leave anything behind. Sometimes a 555 chip is all you need to do something, sometimes you need much more. And of course, sometimes you just need to get away from something to begin to appreciate it.
For what you get, yes $20 is to expensive. Especially when I can get a Propeller, 3.3V regulator, a handful of resistors, some wire, a VGA adapter, A couple of PS/2 DINs, and a prototyping board for about $18, through it all together and you have a lot more than the arduino gives.
no need to argue the merrits of the prop chip...it is a good chip....never did i say it wasn't.
some people here are sounding like AVR fanboys vs PIC fanboys
use whatever micro suits you....I just like Amtel chips for my moneys worth....now I can buy blank Amtel ATmega 328 chips and make my own
microcontroller chips with the bootloader in there IDE....as for prop chips , I do own 5, but never use them, not yet anyway....
Horses for courses. The Arduino is a wonderful thing. The Propeller is a wonderful thing. For sure there are things you can do with one that you cannot do with the other and versa-versa. Much can be done on both, might be a bit easier one way round or the other depending on what it is. Better to keep an open mind and keep a "finger on the pulse" of as many relevant technologies as possible.
Those hardware prices are another issue. Shop around.
"open source is cheaper" Perhaps it is sometimes. However the dev tools for Arduino, Propeller and many other such systems are free (monetarily) anyway.
However that statement bugs me because it totally misses the point of open source and free software. Where "free" is nothing to do with price.
Good luck with your journey and we look forward to seeing you back here soon.
oldPGMguy:
I wish you luck with the journy into the AVR. I still use these little wonders for some things. Now if they could bring down the price of the 32MHz 8bit XMega, Then I could use that for VGA and sound and save a Propeller.
Oops!
I went and done it. Just looked at the prices of XMega AVRs and the price has come down quite a bit. I guess that at least one AVR just found its way back into the MuAmi.
people argue over stupid things.....prop chip vs amtel chip.....I still use parallax chips...maybe i should have worded the post different....its just nice to use something different, thats how you learn...can't learn anything just sticking to and defending one product.....just like a hacker, they want to tear everything apart and see what ticks , then mod it.....just look at the AVR fanboys vs the PIC fanboys....check there sites out, now there is some real fighting......so let it go people, lighten up its just a micro, not the end of life as we know it
I still use parallax chips...maybe i should have worded the post different....its just nice to use something different, thats how you learn
Now there is something I can agree with. Your first post was a bit much for someone just wanting to try something different. I use many chips and have found some work better for a certain application than othere. There is also price and support to consider.
Keep looking and trying new things and you will find the things you are comfortable with and use more than others.
Now there is something I can agree with. Your first post was a bit much for someone just wanting to try something different. I use many chips and have found some work better for a certain application than othere. There is also price and support to consider.
Keep looking and trying new things and you will find the things you are comfortable with and use more than others.
you said it Franklin.....sorry to all who took it the wrong way....
They said that Commodore users were the most loyal for a reason to buy Commdore computers and Jack Tramiel later said in an interview that there was no loyalty.
They said that Commodore computers were cheaper and it was sad to see two students sharing an Apple in school when two or three users could be sitting at their own Commodore 64 instead of sharing an Apple II.
Commodore was basically an economic cult at the end with salesmen giving people a reason to buy. Then one day they went bankrupt and some of the users are still using Amigas while the other users went to IBM.
I look at all the sites that I grew up with like the Wanamaker organ. Wanamakers doesn't exist anymore. I remember Gimbles department store. I remember the five and dime called "C.G. Murphy" in my old neighborhood which isn't there anymore. I remember Woolworth. I remember the local bank which was swallowed up by a bigger bank. How many of you like T-mobile? It was bought by AT&T. I remember an old supermarket called "Penn Fruit" that doesn't exist anymore.
You need ideas, people and markets that practice sustainability because any product, individuals or companies come and go. Stock owners and lenders have a lot of control over corporations and they can make decisions at the drop of a hat that they don't want to go after the money from the hobby market anymore. Any company can say they want to go after big business or the automotive business because they want bigger profits. They can say they aren't making enough.
I find some of your statements very interesting. Especially as the two micros that I like most are both made by companies that do not have any publicly traded shares. They are the Parallax Propeller, and the WDC 65C816.
I find some of your statements very interesting. Especially as the two micros that I like most are both made by companies that do not have any publicly traded shares. They are the Parallax Propeller, and the WDC 65C816.
I may have to play with some of that WDC stuff, found memories of the 6502 from the days of old.
I find some of your statements very interesting. Especially as the two micros that I like most are both made by companies that do not have any publicly traded shares. They are the Parallax Propeller, and the WDC 65C816.
Commodore bought the Amiga technology and it cost millions to develop and they borrowed. Once the banks were involved, the banks started making decisions and yet none of the banks had ever made a computer.
I find some of your statements very interesting. Especially as the two micros that I like most are both made by companies that do not have any publicly traded shares. They are the Parallax Propeller, and the WDC 65C816.
Interesting observation - how many times have we seen in the IT world, that as an enthusiastic and dynamic little organisation gets bigger, eventually they get publicly quoted. then instead of dealing with a loyal fan base and concentrating on giving the customer what they want, its all about the next quarterly figures and share price retention. Long term survival when When your CEO won't stay more than 3 years before moving on to another company to plunder means long term survival becomes a thing of the past.
Keep the Harvard business school types at bay and stay in business. !
oldPGMguy:
Please do not bring back the debates over the new Commodore USA. We went on about that for a couple of weeks last time some one brought that up.
Good computers. I think that many here like them. Please though avoid the subject of the new Commodore USA. Last time they were brought up a very long debate ensued about the fact they are selling PC/AT compatibles in the old style cases, I would rather not rekindle that debate.
Comments
I make quite a virtue out of doing things on the Cheap - most of my stamps are 2nd hand from ebay - I just got 2 new BS 2PX for £38 GBP - which I thought value, I do think there is a point about theLCD display - a quick look on ebay again will find a variety of sources happy to send you an LCD for about £3.50 GBP
So I get my Parallax stamps and shop around - Parallax do the decent thing by telling you what they supply, and if you choose to source them elsewhere cheaper - then that's cool.
Example IR remote for the BOE bot $33 dollars - got an IR remote from my local pound shop an IR detector for £1.89. this left a few bits of wire and a 220 Ohm resistor - I make that under $5 when converted to US dollars as opposed to $33 and shipping charges, from your goodselves - so why the difference !
It's obvious isn't it ? ... The bit I missed out - a brilliant manual (which I got free of charge courtesy of yourselves, plus your brilliant support. You give your very best away for free - I almost feel guilty using your downloads.
I've seen the alternative and IT STINKS - I've still got scars from trying to build with straight PICs no support and a bunch of crappy examples which don't work, so you don't know if it's your code, your kit or your assembly thats up the creek - I work in IT services and I know this isn't cheap to produce. Having blown £99 on bits for my pic project I barely managed to get beyond a winking LED. With my first BS2 I was just stunned by the progress I made - saving money only works if the solution works.
So I won't be buying my LCD screens or IR detectors from parallax - there are hardware suppliers who out compete in this, but I will be buying my "Propellor getting started kit" from you - just because I know I'll be guided through what I need to do without being treated like a dummy or blinded by people who think that human beings communicate in an admixture of hexadecimal and Nerd!
This is the Parallax USP, and long may you prosper, but I do think you're missing a trick by giving it away. Surely a nominal price to download your publications would not be outrageous (I'd not gripe too much). they are after all simply the best put together in their field. I actually use my copy of "what's a microcontroller" as an example to some of my technical writers when they need to see how it should be done.
I have to say it was a couple of years back and put me off doing anything with microcontrollers for some time.
Support site for the book was no longer supported and down. the circuitry didn't work as shown in the book and neither did the code - all machine code, so gobbledegook to the likes of me I could go on.
The Prop has eight cores and I have no plans to learn how to code interupts. Since '08' I've created two patentable machines and I'll shortly start work on a 3rd. I only accomplished that because of the support of the Parallax community and company. You will not find better support than Parallax.
'
If your not happy with the Parallax stuff
'
Why make a new post on the Parallax forums to denounce Parallax micros ?
'
Why not just fade off into another " http://microjohndoe.com " forum ?
'
Unless you have a hidden agenda, Like promoting another micro.
'
What ever the case
'
SEE YA
I don't know what their motive or intention was. I just try to accept what people say or there would be no reason to believe anybody and there would be no reason to talk to anybody.
The propeller was suggested to me because we were looking for a video chip and I knew that it could do video.
Some of the people in the forum like me want a retro computer so they are looking at available chips and some of them are microcontrollers. It is probably unfair that we want a processor.
Some of us have a different way of thinking; in theory the 6502 could address 64K and the Motorolla 68000 was a successor to many of the computer wars.
So basically after looking for two years, the propeller is fulfilling the microcontroller market. The way we're being unfair is that some users just want many easy tutorials, low cost, lots of i/o, modular designs that are compatible, lots of available memory and it helps if the chip can compete with video that you would see from a retro computer. The users are here because they are getting support here that they wouldn't get from assembling other computer designs from scratch. Because different people want different things, I don't know if the prop will be everything to everybody but it will fill its designed range and other people will push it to its limits. If you were to research Amiga on the wikipedia page you will find years went by between models because it takes time to design and develop both hardware, operating systems and software between models. I think that there is a lot that Arduino isn't doing for $30 that Amiga did and Amiga still went bankrupt. So hats off to a company that is still here like Parallax.
But I have to admit, I too tend to 'throw the baby out with the bath water' as part of my creative process. But I have learned that I have this rather dramatic tendency, so I just box up things and set them aside to be dealt with at another time, maybe even a few years down the road.
It really is no big deal. I tend to take the engineer's generic kind of view and I am always on the lookout for a different concept or a superior new device. The fact that the Propeller is so different from anything else out there has made me both love and hate it. In other words, it teaches a heck of a lot more than the average microcontroller with the average industrial approach because it doesn't conform to such.
Recently I bought quite a bit from a fellow that dumped all his SX chips and related stuff. He felt the SX was no longer of use, that the Propeller had replaced it. But I still feel that there are times that one CPU is enough to do the job and the SX is more flexible that others for those tasks.
So, when you really understand the utility of the device - you never really can leave anything behind. Sometimes a 555 chip is all you need to do something, sometimes you need much more. And of course, sometimes you just need to get away from something to begin to appreciate it.
As to the arduino, way way to expensive for me.
For what you get, yes $20 is to expensive. Especially when I can get a Propeller, 3.3V regulator, a handful of resistors, some wire, a VGA adapter, A couple of PS/2 DINs, and a prototyping board for about $18, through it all together and you have a lot more than the arduino gives.
no need to argue the merrits of the prop chip...it is a good chip....never did i say it wasn't.
some people here are sounding like AVR fanboys vs PIC fanboys
use whatever micro suits you....I just like Amtel chips for my moneys worth....now I can buy blank Amtel ATmega 328 chips and make my own
microcontroller chips with the bootloader in there IDE....as for prop chips , I do own 5, but never use them, not yet anyway....
Horses for courses. The Arduino is a wonderful thing. The Propeller is a wonderful thing. For sure there are things you can do with one that you cannot do with the other and versa-versa. Much can be done on both, might be a bit easier one way round or the other depending on what it is. Better to keep an open mind and keep a "finger on the pulse" of as many relevant technologies as possible.
Those hardware prices are another issue. Shop around.
"open source is cheaper" Perhaps it is sometimes. However the dev tools for Arduino, Propeller and many other such systems are free (monetarily) anyway.
However that statement bugs me because it totally misses the point of open source and free software. Where "free" is nothing to do with price.
Good luck with your journey and we look forward to seeing you back here soon.
I wish you luck with the journy into the AVR. I still use these little wonders for some things. Now if they could bring down the price of the 32MHz 8bit XMega, Then I could use that for VGA and sound and save a Propeller.
I went and done it. Just looked at the prices of XMega AVRs and the price has come down quite a bit. I guess that at least one AVR just found its way back into the MuAmi.
Thank you, will take a look.
Keep looking and trying new things and you will find the things you are comfortable with and use more than others.
you said it Franklin.....sorry to all who took it the wrong way....
They said that Commodore users were the most loyal for a reason to buy Commdore computers and Jack Tramiel later said in an interview that there was no loyalty.
They said that Commodore computers were cheaper and it was sad to see two students sharing an Apple in school when two or three users could be sitting at their own Commodore 64 instead of sharing an Apple II.
Commodore was basically an economic cult at the end with salesmen giving people a reason to buy. Then one day they went bankrupt and some of the users are still using Amigas while the other users went to IBM.
I look at all the sites that I grew up with like the Wanamaker organ. Wanamakers doesn't exist anymore. I remember Gimbles department store. I remember the five and dime called "C.G. Murphy" in my old neighborhood which isn't there anymore. I remember Woolworth. I remember the local bank which was swallowed up by a bigger bank. How many of you like T-mobile? It was bought by AT&T. I remember an old supermarket called "Penn Fruit" that doesn't exist anymore.
You need ideas, people and markets that practice sustainability because any product, individuals or companies come and go. Stock owners and lenders have a lot of control over corporations and they can make decisions at the drop of a hat that they don't want to go after the money from the hobby market anymore. Any company can say they want to go after big business or the automotive business because they want bigger profits. They can say they aren't making enough.
I may have to play with some of that WDC stuff, found memories of the 6502 from the days of old.
C.W.
Commodore bought the Amiga technology and it cost millions to develop and they borrowed. Once the banks were involved, the banks started making decisions and yet none of the banks had ever made a computer.
Interesting observation - how many times have we seen in the IT world, that as an enthusiastic and dynamic little organisation gets bigger, eventually they get publicly quoted. then instead of dealing with a loyal fan base and concentrating on giving the customer what they want, its all about the next quarterly figures and share price retention. Long term survival when When your CEO won't stay more than 3 years before moving on to another company to plunder means long term survival becomes a thing of the past.
Keep the Harvard business school types at bay and stay in business. !
Please do not bring back the debates over the new Commodore USA. We went on about that for a couple of weeks last time some one brought that up.