Sorry the change has come for me
oldPGMguy
Posts: 25
arduino.....much more support....get one....right now the propeller is all parallax has going for it.....open source is much cheaper...show me a 4x20 lcd from parallax for $18 or a 2x16 for $12...don't get me wrong, i still have 2 BS1's and 2 BS2's....but the glue chips and other boards for stamps are too expensive for the regular guy...open source is right up my alley......I would stick to stamps, but sorry they are way to expensive for me at this point in time.....Sorry Parallax
Comments
Support and guarantees also cost up front. Parallax products may cost more than similar products found on the open market, but they'll be replaced or repaired, no questions asked, if they don't work as described. The support people are excellent, etc. On the other hand, you do have a budget and you have to figure out how much support you can afford.
You might look at the new Propeller QuickStart board for $20. It really has everything you need to get started with the Propeller at a very good price. With a couple of resistors, you can hook up a TV for a display and an old PS/2 keyboard for input to make a standalone project.
I feel that Parallax support, documentation, and products are top notch.
Even if this were true, the Propeller is an awful lot to have going for you.
This, I don't understand. Just about any LCD you can use with an Arduino can be used with a Stamp or Propeller. I have connected many, many LCD displays to Stamps over the years - none of them have been purchased from Parallax.
In addition, I believe most of the Parallax displays have "serial" adapters as well to make connections easier (fewer pins). If you compare these with other serial LCDs the prices may not be that different.
This was covered in your other thread. There are numerous less expensive ways to use real Parallax Stamp chips.
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?131474-I-invented-my-own-basic-stamp
Hmmm, I buy my 2x16 back-lighted LCDs for 3.50 delivered...better check ebay.
Bargain hunters can do better on some prices than Parallax, but nowhere will you find better support.
Support means everything to newbies, without a lot of hand holding many just give up in frustration.
Also, unless you are taking a project into mass production the modest price difference between
Parallax and bargain sources is kind of meaningless, especially when you consider the quality
of Parallax service.
Arduinos are cool but they pale in comparison to the new Propeller Quickstart boards at just 20.00USD
(or sometimes FREE!)
BTW, Arduinos are too costly for small projects, to get the most for the least you need to move to
bare AVRs without the Arduino bootloader and use the free WinAVR compiler and AVR studio4/5.
I like to combine AVR and prop in the same project, they can compliment each other very nicely.
A 5.00 Atmega1284p and an 8.00 Prop gives you a lot of bang.
You may notice that we just released the Understanding Signals with the PropScope book, loaded with BASIC Stamp examples. We are not simply buying and reselling products; we design them. Even something appearing as simple as the PIR has just completed a year of redesign and manufacturing. The pending WiFi module took several years of R&D to make it super simple and completely reliable. The lithium ion chargers were held back from production as we scrapped thousands of dollars of PCBs due to a minor error encountered on the production line. When you buy into Parallax you will benefit from the commitment we've made to our products and customers for the long-term, and anybody you want to talk to for any kind of support is available. For the most part these products are made in the USA on the finest equipment we can buy, run by staff who know what they're doing.
The BASIC Stamp continues to increase. Just last month RadioShack expanded the product from 3,000 to 5,000 stores. Boy Scouts of America adopted it as an approved kit for the Robotics merit badge.
In regards to the need for open-source, consider the Propeller. What's not open today will be shortly.
Finally, I'd like to point out that the folks on this forum are truly professional and supportive. Their involvement and enthusiasm is something money can't buy - they're here because they share interests and have a truly creative spirit.
oldPGMguy, you're always welcome here no matter what processor you use. The world is big enough for all of us and thankfully we have choices.
Sincerely,
Ken Gracey
Producing quality products costs money- but results in a far better experience for the user. I don't know how people can complain about the Propeller being too expensive- there are lots of options ranging from the $8 dip, the $20 quickstart, on up to the professional development board- and all with the simplicity and power of the features we love. Open source is nice, but I'd much rather spend my limited time on products that work rather than having to fix someone elses bugs.
Hanno
One of these days I would like somebody to provide me with an explanation of how "open source" is so radically different from what Parallax has to offer. When I tell people I'm using Propeller chips to run my instruments, I often get balked at and told "not for me, I only do open source." From my perspective, Propeller chips are dirt cheap, the software is free, and the OBEX provides me with lots to work with, plus the forum is a great community. What more are people getting out of "open source"? How could it be any cheaper than this? What is so "closed" about Parallax and/or its products? Unless the software writes itself or the products are handed out along with U2 tickets and free cases of beer, I'm not sure how it could be significantly better.
But I really want free U2 tickets, beer and self generating code! :-)
gimeee gimeee gimeee
(Stallman the wise, would agree)
I won't post any more about this.
anything like what the prop is capable of and while the AVR
is busy handling video there is not much left over for anything
else.
You can do video on the Prop easily, even more than one
video signal can be handled easily. And you have several
processors left over to do other things at the same time.
The Prop just has more cowbell :-)
Also, Parallax is increasingly using open source, publishing its schematics, planning on using open source tools for Prop II development software, using MIT licensure for Prop libraries, etc.
The Prop doesn't need any glue chips for audio or video, just a couple of resistors. You can add a PS/2 keyboard interface with a couple of resistors too.
I'm not sure where the glue is in the Propeller - you've got the freedom to put your circuitry on any set(s) of I/O pins. As far as video on the AVR, the most impressive example I've seen was from Linus, but then he got a Propeller too http://www.linusakesson.net/scene/turbulence/index.php. Have you heard a Propeller talk? I'm not much of a persuader in the mychip v. yourchip or language wars, but I'd argue that the Propeller is among the most open designs commercially available. No matter what you do you can count on us treating you the same as a million-dollar customer.
Sincerely,
Ken Gracey
I can't say much for the Arduino itself; as once I started using the Propeller I haven't needed to use anything else, but no matter what micro you use, the important thing is that you build great things with it.
You set up straw-man after straw-man, posting stink and proving nothing.
I don't see any projects from you and you've all of 10 posts, these measley missives here and some bull about your "postee".
Shill for arduina someplace else.
Akesson is really good with this stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gEMKYnUADE&feature=player_embedded
This is another, much simpler video demo utilizing a prop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef7ZAb5fOv8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
The important point is that the prop can do this quality of video
and still have enough muscle left over to do several other things
at the same time.
Personally I like the AVR and the Prop. I'm slowly writing a book
about the 8 bit AVRs. It's aimed at beginners and those wanting
to move from dependence on the Arduino platform to the cheaper
method of programming the bare chips using C and the free WinAVR
compiler. I think I will throw in a chapter on combining the AVR with
a Prop, using the prop to do heavy lifting like audio and video. This
leverages the user's skills with the AVR and C and gives them the
ability to do projects far beyond the capabilities of the AVR alone.
Come to think of it I don't really know what gives this forum such hate for the Arduino.
I don't think it's so much "hate" as much as that the Arduino gets presented in hobby magazines, web sites, university classes, and other places as "the greatest thing since sliced bread" while the Propeller gets much less attention, yet is much more capable and about the same in terms of ease of use for simple tasks.
release it as 3 or 4 sections, one at a time, so the first part is not far
off...otherwise it will take too long to get anything out since I am
pretty busy for the next 6-7 months.
I want them to get a final release of the new AVR studio 5 out
so I can include images using it as well as the old Studio 4.
If I don't have both then some beginners will surely get confused.
I have Studio 5 beta but it may differ from the actual release..who knows.
Wish there was a cheap demo board with a sm prop and a sm Atmega1284p
already soldered to it.. and a prototype area...that would be a perfect match
to the book. The 1284p could even boot the prop and thus no need for an
eeprom.
EDIT Hey Micro, Maybe you would be a good guinea pig to look at the book
first...since you say you are a true beginner :-) If that sounds good I could
get a few chapters spruced up and email them out as a PDF. I could answer
questions and get feedback by email, phone or skype video.
An AVR and a Propeller on one board, with a prototyping area.
A simpler board but with a 1284p upgrade from the
328p would be better. This board would only be
useful in the later part of the book. To start I want
to keep things really simple, even doing some point
to point circuit building without even a circuit board
of any kind....it's fun! especially when using an 8pin
dip uC like the Tiny85.
I'm recommending readers
spring for the official Atmel programmer and not try
to build a lpt port type of programmer...they are just
frustrating. I want to keep parts cost as low as possible
for the newbie and explain to them that their money
is better spent on a real chip programmer than on an
Arduino with its built in USB connection...they will
save lots of cash in the long run...
already soldered to it.. and a prototype area...that would be a perfect match
to the book. The 1284p could even boot the prop and thus no need for an
eeprom."
Holly,
draw me a schematic , free hand OK, give me few months and I'll put it in EAGLE ( PCB software) and get some boards made.
Vaclav
From a hobbyists point of view microcontrollers are so cheap there's no need to choose one platform. I've done projects many with the Basic Stamp 2, a few with the Arduino, and now one with the Propeller. It's best to pick the path of least resistance for the project you're working on. For example using a Parallax microcontroller with Parallax sensors is generally easiest because of the code samples. But the AVR's built in A/D and built-in flash make it handy too. The Propeller's multi-cores are really handy for something like a multi-servo walking robot because you can eliminate the servo controller and the complexity of a serial protocol.
I don't see how the Stamps are more expensive to manufacture than anything else Parallax makes. The fact that the tech is "relatively old" means that the development costs should have been paid for long ago.
As for the Propeller costing more than the Stamp, Ken recently dropped the price of the Spin Stamp from $49 to $29 after PJ Allen simply asked why the Spin Stamp was so expensive. Given this, I can't imagine that prices for the rest of the Stamps couldn't be pared down a little.
Open Source ISN'T more inexpensive. The costs of open source are generally absorbed by the contributors. (man hours, engineering, etc) Unfortunately, the resulting support, and information are are spread everywhere requiring you to spend time rooting it out. Parallax provides the service of being a one-stop-shop, but that requires expense which is reflected in the reasonable prices of products.
OBC
1) I have never really figured out why the Arduino gets so much attention or is so often mis-labeled as a microcontroller. As already mentioned here by others, it is a development platform.
2) oldPGMguy: I don't understand your claim that because the Propeller isn't open source, it costs more. There are numerous open source propeller boards in existence and even some of Parallax's boards are open source. In the realm of software, open source typically means free, but that can never be the case for a development platform. (when have you seen anyone handing out free Arduinos?) The statement you made needs clarification as it has no basis for debate as it is worded.
3) I for one do not care if something is open source or not. If it gets the job done, it gets the job done. If I truly want to build off of a non-open source design, I will. I don't need schematics, etc, to reverse engineer any layout in current existence to make my own design. It may take me a bit longer, but if I want to modify an existing design to my needs, I will do it whether it is open source or not.
4) I feel that the Gadget Gangster Propeller Platform USB board will soon become the "platform standard" for the Propeller. The design, price, versatility, etc, etc, satisfies a tremendous array of customers. As mentioned on this thread and elsewhere, many add on modules are being developed but several people which will continue to boost it's use and support. I really like some of the other designs available (a few from Bill Henning, Martin's ASC, and Jazzed's SpinSocket) and tend to use what fits for a project, design my own, or use protoborad.
If you made your own, I bet you could target a slightly cheaper BS2. I don't foresee Parallax lowering the cost simply because it has been around for a while.
The Spin Stamp is almost identical to the BS2, and is BoE compatible. I'm fairly sure that they're built on a pick and place, so once the initial program is created, it's all automated.
>>> In a way, I would also assume that you are paying a bit for the BASIC interpreter in the chip as well since the price of the PIC16 used is about 70 cents and the BS2 Interpreter chip is $10.99.
Parallax owns the IP for the PBasic Interpreter, so there are no licensing costs.
Comparing the Spin Stamp vs. BS2, Parallax owns the major IP that drives each product, and cost wise, a PIC16+interpreter is probably less to produce than 1 Propeller.
If you look at the SX-based modules, maybe you need to factor in some licensing costs to Ubicom, but given the volumes purchased by Parallax for long-term support of the stamps, I'm sure there must be some wiggle room there, too.