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Flash Point: SuperQuad now for sale! — Parallax Forums

Flash Point: SuperQuad now for sale!

RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
edited 2011-03-27 13:16 in Propeller 1
Ok, so I can't keep a secret...

Just stumbled across some new, high-speed memory technology last week and have been obsessive-compulsing over it ever since...

Finally, have a prototype working. Flash Point is a ~$8 memory module that can work with virtually any Prop setup including Demo Board, Proto Board, and Prop Platform.

This memory is so fast that it can actually serve as a video frame buffer, even in it's $8 configuration.
It is several times faster than SD card.

The software is not polished yet, but here you can see a photo of a Prop outputing a 29 kB bitmap using only a 180 byte line buffer.

I've done this before with internal Prop RAM, but there was no space left for any program.
Now, i'm doing the same thing, but there's all kinds of room left...

Here's a screen shot showing a 152x152 pixel bitmap on TV (it may appear upside down):
FlashPoint_Test1s.JPG


Update: FPS is now for sale! See my website for more info: www.rayslogic.com
FlashPoint_Test1s.JPG
400 x 266 - 25K
«13

Comments

  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2011-03-13 18:23
    Cool. Got links to specs?
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2011-03-13 18:44
    Is it those USB sticks with computer-less transfer??

    Sounds intriguing actually.
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2011-03-14 07:49
    Rayman,
    More info please !!!

    Bean
  • Bob Lawrence (VE1RLL)Bob Lawrence (VE1RLL) Posts: 1,720
    edited 2011-03-14 09:25
    Is this product based on those chips?

    http://www.starbursthomepage.com/flashpointx.htm
  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,091
    edited 2011-03-14 09:58
    Rayman: Your description is quite a tease..

    Any chance of more specs? Flash Point?

    OBC
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2011-03-14 10:13
    Nice teaser!

    The interesting question is... how many prop pins does it need?

    I've been meaning to play with the W25Qxxx chips I got when the W25Xxxx series became harder to source...
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2011-03-14 10:28
    Bill, I'll be writing W25Q... drivers later for SpinSocket-Flash. Want to collaborate?
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2011-03-14 10:33
    Sounds like a plan!

    Feel free to grab SPI code from VMCOG to use as a starting point; plus on Mikronauts I have some code for the W25X80...
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-14 13:16
    Here's some more details:

    In a personal record, I've gone from concept to ordering PCBs in 5 days!

    Flash Point SuperQuad (FPS): Ships Friday!

    FPS comprises a small PCB (0.6" x 0.9") with an 8-pin header and one SQI flash chip, the SST26VF016.
    SQI means Serial Quad I/O, meaning it transfers a nibble at a time.
    It holds 2 MB and can sustain a transfer rate of 320 Mbit/s (in theory).
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2011-03-14 13:42
    W25Q compatible? Grumble SpinSocket-Flash grumble :)
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-14 15:37
    I hope it will be compatible with your chip, the more code the better...

    I've got big plans for using these chips with the LCD screens I sell. It opens the door for much better graphics with minimal expense.

    Recalculating expenses, I think I can start FPS at $6.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2011-03-14 16:01
    The pins are the same and the JEDEC manufacturing ID procedure are the same for the W25Q* and SST26VF*. Beyond that they are different. At least the ID can be used to alert the user that the wrong driver is being used. The boot EEPROM could load the right driver as necessary if there's room. One way or another we sort of get a second source for devices.

    Funny you mention LCD and graphics :) I've been working on a PropBoyColor schematic that would use a 2x4 "SQI" flash module cartridge. I found a not so cheap card-edge connector for the mother board. Cartridge boards can use .1" center gold fingers on both sides. Got your GBC/GBA enclosures yet?
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-14 16:40
    Is the basic functionality at least the same?
    The major feature that lets my TV driver work is that you can continuously output the entire chip...
    For me, this is the most important feature.
    I have the idea of storing an entire VGA frame in memory and outputting at the dot clock...

    Didn't get my enclosures yet... Still waiting for my China CNC driver too...
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-03-14 16:47
    Rayman wrote:
    This memory is so fast that it can actually serve as a video frame buffer, ...
    Is the write endurance of any concern for an app like that?

    -Phil
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-14 16:52
    Phil, I'm just reading at high speed...

    You definitely do not want to write at video speeds...

    Still, I think we can do cool things like show a bunch of sprites on a background image by using HUB RAM for the sprites and xor'ing them onto the background provided by the flash.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-03-14 16:57
    I wasn't referring to the write speed but to the total number of writes that each cell can endure. 100,000 is typical for flash.

    -Phil
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2011-03-14 17:02
    Rayman wrote: »
    Is the basic functionality at least the same?
    The SST chip is simpler. Both support "continuous" modes ... I'm attracted to this for a different reason: i.e. Flash program code can be read synchronously at about the same rate as SDRAM data. I'm not sure I understand using Flash as a frame buffer unless the data is mostly static as in a photo-frame.
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-14 17:07
    Sorry if I'm using the wrong terminology... I mean a photo-viewer.
    (But, I do have another secret plan for a writeable buffer)
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2011-03-14 17:11
    Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) wrote: »
    I wasn't referring to the write speed but to the total number of writes that each cell can endure. 100,000 is typical for flash.
    I suggest you make a very good case for this paranoia. There are 100's of $billions of equipment in the US that use Flash everyday. You're suggesting that it will all fail soon?
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-03-14 17:18
    The devices that use flash for data storage typically use load leveling to minimize the chances of premature failure. But when Ray suggested he was going to use it as a video buffer, it seemed as if the write limit could be exceeded rather quickly. But now that he's modified that to mean "photo" and "stationary background" buffer, the chances of such a failure appear less likely.

    But, yes, the write limit in solid state drives is definitely a factor to consider, especially in op systems that use the disk to cache memory.

    -Phil
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2011-03-14 17:33
    Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) wrote: »
    But, yes, the write limit in solid state drives is definitely a factor to consider
    I agree it is a factor to consider, but the application should always be a measured one. Obviously I was confused too at first, but people tend to focus too much on some limit rather than the benefit. This is an enabling, break-through technology. Let's not dismiss it so easily or at worse inadvertently mislead others on its potential.
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-14 18:02
    Jazzed, I guess your talking about the relative jump feature of the SST chip as the advantage over the Windbond chip?

    It does appear that the SST chip is designed for use as program memory.
    I haven't gotten too much into the C compiler stuff, but it does appear that the flash could be used as direct program memory...

    I'm looking into this feature for doing a scrollable map or photo... I'll flash a huge bitmap and then allow horizontal pan and vertical scroll to various parts of it...
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2011-03-14 19:20
    This kind of storage could be used for video assets too, not just a background. A draw list would need to be implemented, then just stuff the objects into the storage, and fetch them more or less sequentially, maybe in blocks.

    For something like a GUI, detail objects could be stored and dynamically drawn, much like a background can. Instead of writing screen positions, the draw list is changed instead.

    What is the read speed of this compared to say, Dracblade?

    And I'm asking because I've not yet used any external memory solution.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2011-03-14 20:15
    Objectively comparing DracBlade to 2xSQI chips.
    Phase                   DracBlade               2xSQI

Address Phase:          3 write ops             6 write ops
1 byte Data Phase:      Address+Data            Address+Data
N bytes Data Phase:     N Address+N Data        Address+N Data

    Summary: Single byte read operation on DracBlade is faster than 2xSQI chips. For any N > 1 byte, 2xSQI will be about 2x faster than DracBlade and will be asymptotically close to CLKFREQ/16 as N approaches infinity.

    In either case a caching algorithm helps greatly, but the faster back-store will allow a flicker-free display. This is not speculation; I've done it with SDRAM which is somewhat faster on reads than the 2xSQI solution would be. I don't believe the DracBlade SRAM would be usable for flicker-free/tearing-free video even with a cache.

    Rayman I didn't notice the jump feature, but I guess it would add value. I like your scrolling map idea - PGPS?
  • wjsteelewjsteele Posts: 697
    edited 2011-03-16 03:54
    Ray, as usual, this is very cool! I can't wait to play around with it.

    Bill
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-16 06:27
    Thanks Bill. I know you're big into the 4.3" displays.

    Several people have asked about how to better graphics without running out of memory...
    That is actually what got me into this.
    I plan on immediately getting Flash Point SuperQuad and Flash Point RamPage working with both 4.3" and 3.5" displays.
    I don't anticipate any problems there as the timing is very forgiving.

    I'm thinking about starting with the 2-bit tile graphics and running them straight off of flash or SRAM.
    I'll just need a 2-row size graphics tile buffer to do it.

    Then, we'll have fullscreen 2-bit graphics with minimal footprint.
    Hopefully, this will work for TV and VGA too. Might not be able to do fullscreen TV or VGA with a single flash chip, but I can at least to a large portion of the screen.
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-17 06:29
    I'm trying a trick to improve image quality:

    Sequential Field Error Diffusion (I just made that up :)

    I've stretched an image vertically 4X in Photoshop and then indexed to the Prop TV palette with error diffusion.
    I'm attempting to store that in flash as 4 fields that will be shown sequentially.

    After that, I'll move onto the 2-bit mode, where I think things will get very exciting.
    Actually, with the RamPage version, I think I can do "Graphics Demo" in SRAM.
    Might be painfully slow though...
  • train nuttrain nut Posts: 70
    edited 2011-03-17 07:06
    Rayman

    Where did you get your chips? I've checked several sources including Mouser, DigiKey, and Microchip Direct and noone seems to have any in stock.

    Ben
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2011-03-17 07:08
    Do these modules still go on sale tomorrow? How do I order?
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,877
    edited 2011-03-17 07:09
    Some people may want to use multiple modules for 4, 8, 12, or even 16 bit wide data bus.
    I'm working on a Prop Platform adapter that can take either 1 or 2 Flashpoint modules.
    One could use two of these adapters to easily go to 16 bits.

    It's easy enough to modify the driver for any of these modes...
    Maybe I'll call it Level 1, Level 2, Level 3 and Level 4...

    Personally, I think a wider bus is overkill for the apps I have in mind, but other people may have other ideas....
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