A... If true, the Japanese government needs to start digging some deep holes in which to push these reactors.
..
What's wrong with this latch ditch solution?...
Encased in concrete (or anything solid) the heat generated by the radioactive material will continue to build up within the core mass if there isn't something actively carrying away the radiogenic heat. So, encased in concrete, the mass will eventually get super hot, degrade if not downright melt the concrete and erupt powerful jets of steam into the atmosphere (The water is provided by the ground water). These jets of steam will then carry with them radioactive materials that are bad for the environment. When rad waste is normally buried, it's broken up so the ratio of surface area to volume is large enough for the heat to escape without damaging the storage container.
The American Embassy in Tokyo, on advice from the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, told Americans to evacuate a radius of “approximately 50 miles” from the Fukushima plant.
What would be wrong with burying each reactor with the nuclear fuel separated if and when it escapes from the reactor vessel, as I mentioned? The fuel mass will continue to decay, of course, but will not produce the extreme heat associated with the meltdown scenario. I mentioned using wooden forms to achieve separation in my "solution". I know this is problematic, but last-ditch is pretty much last-ditch.
If the fuel does not produce sufficient heat, it will not eat through the concrete, thus it will not come into contact with ground water or anything else.
I am not standing by this solution to be argumentative. The minds on this forum are truly a great resource capable of innovative solutions. Maybe someone will figure this out. Wouldn't that be something!
...
What would be wrong with burying each reactor with the nuclear fuel separated if and when it escapes from the reactor vessel, as I mentioned? The fuel mass will continue to decay, of course, but will not produce the extreme heat associated with the meltdown scenario. ...
I'm no expert but I've heard these core materials can reach several 1000's of degrees, which is why they melt everything in their path, steel, concrete, dirt, and solid rock included. Separating the materials is exactly what everyone would like to do right now but the problem is this: how to pull something apart that is already incredibly hot and slumped together in a semi-molten self-welded mass? Normally there is a crane in the top of the building that is used to pull the rods out during maintenance, but the crane and top of each building got sprinkled over the countryside. And it's not clear what you would grab hold of and start pulling even if you had a crane. Apparently human beings can't even get close enough to throw water on these units, and I've heard that even helicopter drops would be too dangerous because of the radiation. At this point I don't think anyone really knows what might happen to the cores, etc. because nobody has ever run this experiment. Needless to say, if there were a simple solution, it would be in full swing right now. Even if cooled, the reactors can't be buried without some sort of water-tight containment to prevent the contaminants from leaching into the ground water, and that containment would have to remain intact for thousands of years otherwise it will ruin the water supply and bleed into the ocean. That's why radiation burial sites are placed in deserts and underground salt mines, where ground water is almost non-existent.
Maybe this power cable they are struggling to complete will let them get the big pumps back on line. I pray it will work. These people need a break.
My idea about burying the problem might buy them a few months. Given three or four months the Japanese could probably handle any issue with which they were faced.
I'm here in Taiwan and quite safe. It is all rather heart rending to see the aftermath of the tsunami and it was far more severe than the affects of the quake itself.
Regarding the nuclear reactor problem, it seems that all the measure have taken on a pattern of too little too late. I don't think the initial evacuation of employees and reduction to a crew of 50 was wise. That was the window of opportunity to air lift in big pumps and the manpower to proactively cool the damage.
With 6 reactors and related storage ponds involved, a staff of 50 only allowed for a couple of leaders and a team of 8 people to watch each reactor 24/7. They finally increased it to 180 people, but only after much damage was already done. And now, they are finally mobilizing a fire brigade to pump water and using helicopters, but these items would have been far more useful at earlier stages. They may help to reduce radiation, but they would have been much more helpful earlier on. It seems that the whole plant is now too radioactive or unstable for people to remain in the immediate area. That is just the nature of radioactive contamination - it gets harder and harder to use manpower on the ground.
Sure they can 'bury the reactor', but that won't really allow them to work with the volatility of the damaged fuel rods. And an explosion might occur anyway. It would be a premature solution and might create risks that are unnecessary. So the current approach is likely the most prudent - lots of water and lots of watching. I do realize that it seems to be a rather helpless affair at this point, but there aren't many tools left to impose control on what is there.
Eventually they will decide that things have stabilized by thermal readings and ambient radioactivity. At that point, they aren't going to try to remove the nuclear material as disturbing it could launch everything into a new series of event. Then, they will bury the material in a high density concrete (maybe even using steel shot for aggregate instead of rock) and abandon the reactors essentially for far beyond our lifetimes.
So it is a long slow slog and anytime radioactivity spikes, people will look to the wind and hope it is blowing out to sea.
Maybe this power cable they are struggling to complete will let them get the big pumps back on line. I pray it will work. These people need a break.
Some people are volunteering for this suicide mission. If they can't get the pumps back online then what are the odds they just bury the site in concrete and spent fuel rods in an effort to protect everyone?
Some people are volunteering for this suicide mission. If they can't get the pumps back online then what are the odds they just bury the site in concrete and spent fuel rods in an effort to protect everyone?
I don't think it's as simple as merely burying everything in place. Unless something is done to stop the continuous generation of heat, then the buried reactors might end up creating a kind of shallow mini-volcano spewing radioactive steam for decades. It all boils down (no pun intended) to a heat transfer problem. A 25 watt light bulb does not generate very much heat, but if you wrap it in a blanket of insulation and keep it turned on for a while, it will get very, very hot.
As for those workers who are trying to keep the reactors from melting down, my heart goes out to them and their families. My father was a fire fighter and was badly burned when I was a kid, so I know what it's like to wait around night after night wondering if your father is going to live.
I don't think it's as simple as merely burying everything in place. Unless something is done to stop the continuous generation of heat, then the buried reactors might end up creating a kind of shallow mini-volcano spewing radioactive steam for decades. It all boils down (no pun intended) to a heat transfer problem. A 25 watt light bulb does not generate very much heat, but if you wrap it in a blanket of insulation and keep it turned on for a while, it will get very, very hot.
I don't know how possible it is but why can't they just bury it in a mountain of concrete, insert a mini nuke and detonate it so that it burns itself up and is contained. How else are you going to get rid of it?
I don't know how possible it is but why can't they just bury it in a mountain of concrete, insert a mini nuke and detonate it so that it burns itself up and is contained. How else are you going to get rid of it?
That's a good question. But it seems they would require a very deep hole. Quoting from wikipedia:
"Plumbbob Rainier was detonated at 899 ft underground on 19 September 1957. The 1.7 kt explosion was the first to be entirely contained underground, producing no fallout."
Its too late, as far as trying to contain the radioactivity, the entire area is contaminated.
When the second plant blew up, it spread the spent fuel everywhere around that area.
(because it was stored above the reactor)
The best thing that can be done now is to STOP the radioactive steam from going into the atmosphere from the seawater currently being dumped onto it. The steam from a reactor core was NEVER meant to be vented off into the direct atmosphere, but this is currently what is being done, for many DAYS now, this is super horrible.
An outer large containment building is going to need to be built, and the remaining damaged reactor cores will need to be neutralized as much as possible by using neutron absorbing fuel. This was done in russia before they encased it in concrete, so the reaction wouldn't continue to be molten hot.
A better solution would be to move the reactor core entirely, and store it in a mountain underground facility, away from the coast.
The best and most powerful people in the world should be involved in getting this situation under control.
Many people the world over make millions of dollars a year to know and be ready for exactly this situation
Now is the time for them to feel a sense of duty, responsibility, and charity to help solve the problems.
The earth has not had a nuclear emergency of this magnitude since 26 April 1986, and this one looks like its much worse due to the explosion and subsequent LAUNCHING INTO THE AIR of the spent nuclear fuel that was stored above the reactor.
The fact that they have resorted to helicopters dropping water onto the reactors says that meltdown has occurred. You can see the large amount of steam from the small amount of water that actually did land on the reactor. Its amazing to me that no officials are telling anyone the truth. If its not a meltdown, then how can water that is dropped from high up turn into steam the instant it hits the area of the building where the core is. That much heat isn't supposed to be exposed to the outside environment. This suggests meltdown indeed. What a sad way to end a major tsunami sundae, with a nuclear cherry on top.
After seeing the water drop videos on the news, and how ineffective they seemed, it occurred to me that if they could drop large bladders filled with water -- like giant water balloons -- more water would go where it needs to. But it's all to easy to second-guess the operation when I'm sitting in a comfy chair thousands of miles away, and people are literally risking their lives to fix something of this magnitude.
... they could drop large bladders filled with water -- like giant water balloons -- more water would go where it needs to. ...
I agree. They need some way to guide the water right on target. I would be surprised if the military doesn't have some sort of GPS-guided parachute delivery system. The downdraft from the helicopters and wind shear appears to render these water dropping efforts useless, thermally speaking. Perhaps they are just raining on the radioactive steam, trying to condense it so it precipitates onto the ground without spreading farther from the plant. Who knows what's really going on.
I herd this morning that they were running some temporary power to the closed and open cooling water pumps.This may work as long as the closed cooling water make-up lines are large enough to regain a closed cooling water level with out it steaming off all the water they pump in.
'
I assume the closed cooling water has all steamed off, So this system will have to regain its level through a 6" to 14" make-up line(s).
I'm not sure what the make-up line size is, But this should be pretty close.
The closed cooling water main lines are around 30" to 36" back to the heat exchanger, So you can see the bottle-neck here.
'
I hope this works and God Bless all those working on this.
Ah.... things finally seem to be stabilizing at the six reactors with the help of pumps from fire trucks and enough committed manpower. Reports are getting more positive and seem to be working though a list of problems involving each reactor. This week's ''Economist" has a good detailed article on how this nuclear crisis evolved.
It appears now that 4 may be a total loss, maybe even all six. That's roughly 10% of Japan's nuclear power.
This has been a huge additional burden to addressing the core problems of earthquake and tsunami victims. An awful lot of people are in need of interim housing with food services for those that have lost everything.
Comments
Encased in concrete (or anything solid) the heat generated by the radioactive material will continue to build up within the core mass if there isn't something actively carrying away the radiogenic heat. So, encased in concrete, the mass will eventually get super hot, degrade if not downright melt the concrete and erupt powerful jets of steam into the atmosphere (The water is provided by the ground water). These jets of steam will then carry with them radioactive materials that are bad for the environment. When rad waste is normally buried, it's broken up so the ratio of surface area to volume is large enough for the heat to escape without damaging the storage container.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/17/world/asia/17nuclear.html?hp
What would be wrong with burying each reactor with the nuclear fuel separated if and when it escapes from the reactor vessel, as I mentioned? The fuel mass will continue to decay, of course, but will not produce the extreme heat associated with the meltdown scenario. I mentioned using wooden forms to achieve separation in my "solution". I know this is problematic, but last-ditch is pretty much last-ditch.
If the fuel does not produce sufficient heat, it will not eat through the concrete, thus it will not come into contact with ground water or anything else.
I am not standing by this solution to be argumentative. The minds on this forum are truly a great resource capable of innovative solutions. Maybe someone will figure this out. Wouldn't that be something!
--Bill
I'm no expert but I've heard these core materials can reach several 1000's of degrees, which is why they melt everything in their path, steel, concrete, dirt, and solid rock included. Separating the materials is exactly what everyone would like to do right now but the problem is this: how to pull something apart that is already incredibly hot and slumped together in a semi-molten self-welded mass? Normally there is a crane in the top of the building that is used to pull the rods out during maintenance, but the crane and top of each building got sprinkled over the countryside. And it's not clear what you would grab hold of and start pulling even if you had a crane. Apparently human beings can't even get close enough to throw water on these units, and I've heard that even helicopter drops would be too dangerous because of the radiation. At this point I don't think anyone really knows what might happen to the cores, etc. because nobody has ever run this experiment. Needless to say, if there were a simple solution, it would be in full swing right now. Even if cooled, the reactors can't be buried without some sort of water-tight containment to prevent the contaminants from leaching into the ground water, and that containment would have to remain intact for thousands of years otherwise it will ruin the water supply and bleed into the ocean. That's why radiation burial sites are placed in deserts and underground salt mines, where ground water is almost non-existent.
Maybe this power cable they are struggling to complete will let them get the big pumps back on line. I pray it will work. These people need a break.
My idea about burying the problem might buy them a few months. Given three or four months the Japanese could probably handle any issue with which they were faced.
--Bill
Regarding the nuclear reactor problem, it seems that all the measure have taken on a pattern of too little too late. I don't think the initial evacuation of employees and reduction to a crew of 50 was wise. That was the window of opportunity to air lift in big pumps and the manpower to proactively cool the damage.
With 6 reactors and related storage ponds involved, a staff of 50 only allowed for a couple of leaders and a team of 8 people to watch each reactor 24/7. They finally increased it to 180 people, but only after much damage was already done. And now, they are finally mobilizing a fire brigade to pump water and using helicopters, but these items would have been far more useful at earlier stages. They may help to reduce radiation, but they would have been much more helpful earlier on. It seems that the whole plant is now too radioactive or unstable for people to remain in the immediate area. That is just the nature of radioactive contamination - it gets harder and harder to use manpower on the ground.
Sure they can 'bury the reactor', but that won't really allow them to work with the volatility of the damaged fuel rods. And an explosion might occur anyway. It would be a premature solution and might create risks that are unnecessary. So the current approach is likely the most prudent - lots of water and lots of watching. I do realize that it seems to be a rather helpless affair at this point, but there aren't many tools left to impose control on what is there.
Eventually they will decide that things have stabilized by thermal readings and ambient radioactivity. At that point, they aren't going to try to remove the nuclear material as disturbing it could launch everything into a new series of event. Then, they will bury the material in a high density concrete (maybe even using steel shot for aggregate instead of rock) and abandon the reactors essentially for far beyond our lifetimes.
So it is a long slow slog and anytime radioactivity spikes, people will look to the wind and hope it is blowing out to sea.
Some people are volunteering for this suicide mission. If they can't get the pumps back online then what are the odds they just bury the site in concrete and spent fuel rods in an effort to protect everyone?
I don't think it's as simple as merely burying everything in place. Unless something is done to stop the continuous generation of heat, then the buried reactors might end up creating a kind of shallow mini-volcano spewing radioactive steam for decades. It all boils down (no pun intended) to a heat transfer problem. A 25 watt light bulb does not generate very much heat, but if you wrap it in a blanket of insulation and keep it turned on for a while, it will get very, very hot.
As for those workers who are trying to keep the reactors from melting down, my heart goes out to them and their families. My father was a fire fighter and was badly burned when I was a kid, so I know what it's like to wait around night after night wondering if your father is going to live.
I don't know how possible it is but why can't they just bury it in a mountain of concrete, insert a mini nuke and detonate it so that it burns itself up and is contained. How else are you going to get rid of it?
That's a good question. But it seems they would require a very deep hole. Quoting from wikipedia:
"Plumbbob Rainier was detonated at 899 ft underground on 19 September 1957. The 1.7 kt explosion was the first to be entirely contained underground, producing no fallout."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_nuclear_testing
Note that 1.7 kilotons is a dinky explosion insofar as nukes go.
When the second plant blew up, it spread the spent fuel everywhere around that area.
(because it was stored above the reactor)
The best thing that can be done now is to STOP the radioactive steam from going into the atmosphere from the seawater currently being dumped onto it. The steam from a reactor core was NEVER meant to be vented off into the direct atmosphere, but this is currently what is being done, for many DAYS now, this is super horrible.
An outer large containment building is going to need to be built, and the remaining damaged reactor cores will need to be neutralized as much as possible by using neutron absorbing fuel. This was done in russia before they encased it in concrete, so the reaction wouldn't continue to be molten hot.
A better solution would be to move the reactor core entirely, and store it in a mountain underground facility, away from the coast.
The best and most powerful people in the world should be involved in getting this situation under control.
Many people the world over make millions of dollars a year to know and be ready for exactly this situation
Now is the time for them to feel a sense of duty, responsibility, and charity to help solve the problems.
The earth has not had a nuclear emergency of this magnitude since 26 April 1986, and this one looks like its much worse due to the explosion and subsequent LAUNCHING INTO THE AIR of the spent nuclear fuel that was stored above the reactor.
The fact that they have resorted to helicopters dropping water onto the reactors says that meltdown has occurred. You can see the large amount of steam from the small amount of water that actually did land on the reactor. Its amazing to me that no officials are telling anyone the truth. If its not a meltdown, then how can water that is dropped from high up turn into steam the instant it hits the area of the building where the core is. That much heat isn't supposed to be exposed to the outside environment. This suggests meltdown indeed. What a sad way to end a major tsunami sundae, with a nuclear cherry on top.
-Phil
I agree. They need some way to guide the water right on target. I would be surprised if the military doesn't have some sort of GPS-guided parachute delivery system. The downdraft from the helicopters and wind shear appears to render these water dropping efforts useless, thermally speaking. Perhaps they are just raining on the radioactive steam, trying to condense it so it precipitates onto the ground without spreading farther from the plant. Who knows what's really going on.
'
I assume the closed cooling water has all steamed off, So this system will have to regain its level through a 6" to 14" make-up line(s).
I'm not sure what the make-up line size is, But this should be pretty close.
The closed cooling water main lines are around 30" to 36" back to the heat exchanger, So you can see the bottle-neck here.
'
I hope this works and God Bless all those working on this.
It appears now that 4 may be a total loss, maybe even all six. That's roughly 10% of Japan's nuclear power.
This has been a huge additional burden to addressing the core problems of earthquake and tsunami victims. An awful lot of people are in need of interim housing with food services for those that have lost everything.