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Let's back up and try again — Parallax Forums

Let's back up and try again

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
edited 2010-08-07 23:40 in General Discussion
Based on what I've seen so far, I would not say the forum migration has been successful. I will say that the new search function seems to work very well. But so much valuable content (images, inline formatting, etc.) has been broken in the transfer that I would rather see a return to the old forum than what we have now. Frankly, I would be happy simply to lose today's posts on the new forum and return to the old one until these migration issues can be straightened out.

-Phil
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Comments

  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2010-08-06 09:32
    Unless:

    The issues can be corrected. I don't know that backing up and trying again latter is going to help these issues any. Having done similar types of conversion/migration of different types of systems in past and current lives, it may be just as easy to "fix" things in the current dataset as try and create a new one. Very often, when you "fix" one set of problems, you create another.

    It may be easier to just do a number of "if the post has xxx, then do yyy" then do the whole thing over.

    Let's give Jim a chance to look things over.
  • tdlivingstdlivings Posts: 437
    edited 2010-08-06 09:37
    Loss of links in post to related disscussions is a big loss.
    Images corrupted may be a size issue. There loss is also a big loss. The images in a post are key to the post and I have wondered about size and storage space for them. Even as jpg images they can get large. What if any is the image size limit of the new forum?

    Without the lost information the new forumn is like starting over and throwing away the old one.

    Tom
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-08-06 09:41
    John R. wrote: »
    It may be easier to just do a number of "if the post has xxx, then do yyy" then do the whole thing over. Let's give Jim a chance to look things over.

    I certainly don't mean to impugn Jim's efforts here. I know it's a Herculean task. But I'm not sure enough of the "xxx" remains in the transferred posts to "do yyy". And the old posts are simply too valuable to take that chance. We can still go back today. Tomorrow it could be too late.

    -Phil
  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2010-08-06 09:47
    I'm speculating, but I'd bet that there is a "map" of some type from some type of "Post ID" in the old forums to a "Post ID" in the new forums, and that the data can be updated from the source.

    Again, pure speculation on my part.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2010-08-06 10:11
    I would not like to loose any images or attachments or links to threads from the old forums. It is still not too late to go back and loose todays input.

    Obviously I do not know what is possible to correct. I have done conversions of databases in the past and it really depends on the issues and tools available and only Jim can decide if it can be rectified later, or a reversion to the old forums are required. I know it's a huge task.

    I am presuming we will be able to get to our old PMs (mailbox) later as stated elsewhere. I have also noticed the signature is significantly smaller - mine gives a lot of links in the signature to old threads.
  • RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
    edited 2010-08-06 10:32
    I had to reset my password, UGHHH. Did anybody else have to reset theirs? And where did the avatars go?.... The new parallax forum looks a lot like the picaxe one. It has very similar characteristics... I didn't complain about the old one.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-08-06 10:52
    Avatars can be added later, and the password issue is just a minor inconvenience. Moreover, the new forum can be configured to resemble the old one, with some really nice added features. And these things can all be done after the fact without causing disruption.

    But complete and correct transfer of past posts is a b.f.d. (to quote our Vice President) and has to be done right. Without that, the forum suffers a tremendous loss in value, both to us forumistas and to Parallax. If that can't be corrected after the fact, we need to back up and start over.

    -Phil
  • ZootZoot Posts: 2,227
    edited 2010-08-06 12:11
    Boy are some of the old posts messed up. See Phil's comments. I concur.

    Second, the "default" date cutoff for showing threads in a given category needs to be changed. It took me quite a bit to figure out why I could only see 14 completed pages (rather than many, many pages of completed projects).

    I had to change the settings in my profile to show all threads from the "beginning" rather than the forum default, which seems to be 30 days?

    Last but not least, pictures seem to be enabled for a user's profile page but avatars on posts seem NOT to be enabled, as there is no way to upload or link to an avatar graphic.
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,891
    edited 2010-08-06 14:04
    I'm with Phil. I can't comprehend why Parallax didn't at least make sure the older posts would carry over to the new system without being garbled. I know they've been planning this for over a year. The forum is such a valuable resource, I hate seeing it in this state...
  • kuronekokuroneko Posts: 3,623
    edited 2010-08-06 17:16
    Based on what I've seen so far, I would not say the forum migration has been successful.

    Seconded. I don't mind missing PMs or subscriptions (still annoying though) but that the conversion removed all whitespace (per line) from within code tags is not acceptable.

    FWIW, I reported this issue back in February (2/21) when migration started.
  • bhenningbhenning Posts: 13
    edited 2010-08-06 17:50
    I agree.

    Even worse, all my saved PM's are gone.
    Based on what I've seen so far, I would not say the forum migration has been successful. I will say that the new search function seems to work very well. But so much valuable content (images, inline formatting, etc.) has been broken in the transfer that I would rather see a return to the old forum than what we have now. Frankly, I would be happy simply to lose today's posts on the new forum and return to the old one until these migration issues can be straightened out.

    -Phil
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-08-06 18:04
    Here's but one example of the migration disaster. (Yes, "disaster" is the right word.) Compare:

    http://forums.parallaxinc.com/forums/default.aspx?f=25&m=307271

    to

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?t=108002&highlight=direct+flag+manipulation

    This is not even remotely acceptable! I put a lot of effort into my forum contributions. To see them butchered in this fashion really roasts my @$$!

    -Phil
  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2010-08-06 18:13
    Um guys, do you really think Parallax or anyone else doesn't agree that things need some work? Given the level of support they provide, and given importance that Parallax places on that support (and these forums), do you REALLY think that if they didn't have a way to fix this, that they would not have gone back?

    Could we maybe be a little patient?

    Could we maybe all take some time and read some of the posts and replies in this section (I seem to recall about at least a half dozen people panicking about losing PMs - they are safe and sound over at http://forums.parallaxinc.com/forums)?

    This wasn't "popped on us" without warning. This isn't the end of the world. It is not obviously not "right", but it's also obviously not "done" either.

    Let's all chill a little, and work through the issues.


    John R., Beaver Dam, Wisconsin
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-08-06 18:47
    John,

    I appreciate your call to temperance; and I would agree if I believed the clobbered posts could (and would) be fixed post-migration. But I'm not convinced of that. And given the rapidly accumulating collection of new posts, I feel that it's prudent to raise an alarm now, in no uncertain terms, and reverse this situation before we reach a point of no return. (We're not there yet, but time is running out.)

    If I'm wrong about the immediacy and gravity of these issues, I shall be happy to eat my words when they're resolved. But, for now, there's no time to waste in going back if there's any chance that they cannot, after all, be put right.

    -Phil
  • hinvhinv Posts: 1,255
    edited 2010-08-06 18:57
    I'm with phil. Can I get a DVD copy of the database up until the conversion?
    This forum is your bread and butter, AFAICT.
    Can't we try them in parallel and just switch when the new one is cleaned up and working? I for one didn't get any notice. I just tried to get in and got a 404 error.

    Search capability will be a big bonus, however. To me, that should be an incremental addon, not a total rewrite of the forum. Maybe I'll come back in a week or so. Please tell me sooner if you decide to abort and take a less painful approach.

    Thanks,
    Doug
  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2010-08-06 18:58
    I had a chance to chat a little with Jim before UPEW. I beleive (I didn't have as much time as I would have liked, but I believe) that there is indeed a "mapping" from old to new, and as a result the ability to "reformat" all or selected posts is there.

    Now, I'll mirror your post, and if this is not the case, I'll eat my words, and be right there with you asking for the roll back...

    I'll still go back to the thought "do you really think Parallax would allow this" and have to believe that even if they don't yet know "exactly how", the at least know in concept that they have a way to get this fixed.

    Make no mistake, the problems are serious, and need to be addressed, in some way shape or form. I'm not saying "roll with it", I'm saying "these guys will get it fixed".

    Hey, I'm just a hobbyist. Some (many) of you guys have your livelihoods based on this stuff, and rely on these forums for your daily bread. Parallax sees us all as "partners", and I don't believe they will leave us in the lurch.

    John R.
    Beaver Dam, WI
  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,091
    edited 2010-08-06 19:07
    The truth is that the old software was being held together with paper-clips and bubblegum.
    It had to be retired. I too have seen the death of some well thought out link posts, like that of the Hydra sticky thread that I took over when Paul left. For that matter I have an entire website of links which are now worthless. I'm already planning to rebuild those indexes as soon as time permits.

    Change is ALWAYS uncomfortable. In the case of the forum software is was necessary.

    I'm sure that we will see hundreds of adjustments, improvements, and fixes as we move forward. Let's give Parallax (ie: Jim) a chance to address these issues before everyone looses their minds.

    I've already started playing with the new search abilities of this forum and LOVE IT! I was able to find CassLan's original PrEditor post within a couple pages. I would have NEVER found it in the old forum software without a link.

    Come on guys.. If nothing else, drop off for the weekend and go DO SOMETHING on the prop. :)

    OBC
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-08-06 19:37
    OBC,

    Believe me, I like the new vBulletin forum software, too, and would not ever advocate returning to the old stuff permanently. But I think the migration was done far too prematurely, leaving issues that should have been worked out ahead of time. My fear is that by not taking a step back now, until these things can be taken care of, some of them can't be fixed. Yet further, assuming the old posts can be repaired after the fact, performing those repairs will be at least as big a job as doing another complete migration. As such, it would be easy for the prospect of such an ordeal to cause interminable delays in execution. That's just human nature. But with a complete roll-back, the incentive to get it right will be as strong as ever.

    I certainly do not intend to demean Parallax's -- nor especially Jim's -- intentions and efforts. We're really lucky to have such supportive and responsive friends in the business. But when things go bad, as they have today, sometimes a do-over is the best recourse. Life does not present many opportunities for do-overs; but, fortunately, this could be one of them! Yet it's an opportunity that may soon disappear under the weight of too many new posts.

    At the very least, perhaps both forums could be locked over the weekend until a deliberately thought-out decision can be made as to what to do next.

    -Phil
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-08-06 19:42
    Microchip recently upgraded their forum software and had very similar teething problems; everyone was complaining about it. After a couple of weeks they had fixed all the issues, and everyone is now happy with it. Just give Parallax a bit of time, it'll come right in the end.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-08-06 19:59
    Leon, did any of those issues involve migration problems with old posts? As I see it there are two sets of problems here: 1) migration of old posts, and 2) matters that can be fixed by changing settings. The latter I'm not concerned about, because I know they will get fixed in time. The former still worries quite a bit.

    -Phil
  • Roger LeeRoger Lee Posts: 339
    edited 2010-08-06 20:11
    First impression was "Wow, this is great".
    Then came the reality, PhiPi before/after disaster
    Before - clear and readable
    After - totally unreadable

    Thumbs up to the search feature, been using it today, that's what I've been needing. " max7219 " keyword - limited to prop forum returned great hits.

    to keep it simple, migration looks like a lot of work, keep at it please.

    Roger
  • RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
    edited 2010-08-06 20:17
    Wait.... All of the posted code is unreadable? Great... Did they even warn us before it happened?? I have never seen Phil so ticked so there must be a serious problem.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2010-08-06 20:36
    Phil: The old posts were OK, but the other problems were very similar.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2010-08-06 21:31
    Heater here. Yes, that's the old heater with an upper case "H" and a ".".

    I'm with Phil on this one. Who had the brilliant idea to throw away so much information?

    1) The code displays are unreadable now.

    2) My bookmarks are all broken.

    3) Worse - All links from the rest of the internet into the forum are broken. Say from Google or Hackaday or blogs or project pages here and there.

    4) Avatars have gone.

    5) Personal messages have gone.

    6) Attachments seem to be borked.

    7) Search still does not work. Try finding "Zog".

    8) Passwords were gone.

    I could not log in as "heater", not without changing the password, but then the old account has an old unused email address in it. My fault perhaps but a little warning would have helped.

    Now I have to somehow fish out all my old PMs to see what needs saving, ahrrr!

    Oh and did I mention this new forum is butt ugly...

    I hope someone contacts me soon to get my old "heater" name working again.

    I guess this will all get resolved some how but just now Heater is a bit Incandescent.
  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2010-08-06 21:42
    Heater. wrote: »
    7) Search still does not work. Try finding "Zog".

    Try searching for *zog*

    I'm not saying you should have to add the wild cards, but I think it gets what you were expecting.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2010-08-06 22:57
    Yep. I already tried that. And Zog*. Works OK.

    Could some one get rid of that "Junior Member" thing. I'm by no means "junior". It's insulting. Of course if it's changed to "Senior Member" I'm going to like it even less.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2010-08-07 00:03
    Heater. wrote: »
    Could some one get rid of that "Junior Member" thing. I'm by no means "junior". It's insulting. Of course if it's changed to "Senior Member" I'm going to like it even less.
    LOL! If you think that's bad, you should wander over to perlmonks.org (Perl programmers' forum). They've got 28 different membership levels, based on "experience points":

    Initiate, Novice, Acolyte, Sexton, Beadle, Scribe, Monk, Pilgrim, Friar,
    Hermit, Chaplain, Deacon, Curate, Priest, Vicar, Parson, Prior, Monsignor,
    Abbot, Canon, Chancellor, Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal, Sage, Saint, Apostle, Pope

    I don't think we need to go there! :-)

    -Phil
  • Kevin WoodKevin Wood Posts: 1,266
    edited 2010-08-07 00:07
    Gee wiz Heater., all of 7 whole posts and you already want to run the place! :)
  • hinvhinv Posts: 1,255
    edited 2010-08-07 07:23
    I retract my previous vote, I like the way this forum works on small screens and the search capability.
    I do want the formatting fixed, and ALL of the posts back and links fixed.
    I still want a DVDROM release of the old forum also, but as of now, I am for keeping the new forum, the new font and fix the stuff that needs to be fixed.

    Thanks for your work
    Doug

    PS, there needs to be a cancel button on edit, post reply, and advanced edit.
  • John R.John R. Posts: 1,376
    edited 2010-08-07 09:24
    hinv wrote: »
    ALL of the posts back
    Please see this thread: http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?t=124569
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