Stingray bot: The Ledger's Review
Oldbitcollector (Jeff)
Posts: 8,091
So Matt (my boy) won the Stingray robot at the UPEC raffle.
He decided that he couldn't possibly see himself having the patience to build it without getting upset,
so he offered opted to find someone who wanted to purchase it. I quickly offered him what he wanted,
(keeping the bot in the family) and it set on the desk for the last week.
So this afternoon, I asked him if he would be willing to "help" assemble the bot to which he agreed to
sit and keep me company while I assembled it. I completed step one and said, "It's your turn!" and
handed him the hex tool and started feeding him parts. Needless to say he assembled the entire
bot from instruction 2 onward. (Sneaky huh?)
We've got to grab some pliers (tonight) from my other shop and get the wheels to stay on,
but he's already looking forward to seeing it work tonight.
Our review:
The bot itself is manufactured perfectly! The instructions are easy to follow, and each part fits
together without forcing or binding. The only issue we had is that there are NO extra screws or
nuts in the package. We were nervous the entire time that one of us might drop one of those tiny
screws and game over. (At least until we could get Ken to send us a pack of replacements.)
We were able to assemble the bot within a couple hours, and the father/son time was time well spent!
We'll report more later...
OBC
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He decided that he couldn't possibly see himself having the patience to build it without getting upset,
so he offered opted to find someone who wanted to purchase it. I quickly offered him what he wanted,
(keeping the bot in the family) and it set on the desk for the last week.
So this afternoon, I asked him if he would be willing to "help" assemble the bot to which he agreed to
sit and keep me company while I assembled it. I completed step one and said, "It's your turn!" and
handed him the hex tool and started feeding him parts. Needless to say he assembled the entire
bot from instruction 2 onward. (Sneaky huh?)
We've got to grab some pliers (tonight) from my other shop and get the wheels to stay on,
but he's already looking forward to seeing it work tonight.
Our review:
The bot itself is manufactured perfectly! The instructions are easy to follow, and each part fits
together without forcing or binding. The only issue we had is that there are NO extra screws or
nuts in the package. We were nervous the entire time that one of us might drop one of those tiny
screws and game over. (At least until we could get Ken to send us a pack of replacements.)
We were able to assemble the bot within a couple hours, and the father/son time was time well spent!
We'll report more later...
OBC
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Comments
The above mentioned "exactly the correct number of nuts and screws..." is my #1 pet peeve. I have acquired a number of "high end" (for hobbyists anyway) robots. These are kits in the 500 to 5000 or so dollar range.
To get to a critical stage, and be short a $0.005 (USD) screw because my big fingers dropped one, or the instructions weren't quite clear on which length to use previously, and be "stuck" is just plain stupid. Not even silly or frustrating. Stupid!
Worse yet, do everything exactly right, and have enough hardware, but be the poor customer that gets the 1 in 10,000 nuts that didn't get threaded (or the screw without the slot).
How about the customer who doesn't want to over tighten (i.e. strip the threads), and has a screw or two fall out in use?
In my case, I deal with this stuff enough that normally I don't think you'd be wanting for any hardware from 1/4 inch down to #2, or 10 mm down to 2 mm. So for me, no problem.
But what about the guy buying one of these kits who doesn't have his own personal hardware store?
Have you ever gone to a local hardware store or one of the big boxes and tried to find a #4 or smaller screw? "Nowadays" you'll find about a 50/50 chance of anyone having #4, and I can't remember the last time I saw anything smaller.
Miniature metric? Don't waste your time trying.
So, for a couple bucks retail, probably less than a buck in quantity, a manufacturer could provide a few extras of each size, and save a WHOLE LOT of frustration, plus help build up the hobbyists hardware cache. Why don't they do that? Don't tell me it's economics. If that's the answer, then "what we have here, is not a failure to communcate" (spelling intentional for us Paul Newman fans), but an extreme example of what I call "management by spreadsheet".
That calculation goes something like $1.27 * a gazillion robot kits => early retirement. The flaw is, you will only sell a small fraction of the gazillion robot kits.
So Ken, please go see your purchasing department, and when they are purchasing the hardware kits, please do all of us, and by extension Parallax, a favor, and give the following instructions:
* For any piece of hardware smaller than #6 Imperialist Yankee Pig system (SAE for the politically correct), and ANY metric size screw, add 1 (or two) piece or 2% to the quantity, which ever results in more pieces.
* For ANY piece of misc hardware (nuts, screws, washers, clip pins) ALWAYS include at least one (or two) extra.
* If there are any metric fasteners with hex sockets (allen heads), include a hex key.
The same could be done for passive electrical components (resistors. caps, etc.), especially those of diminutive size.
Now, if anyone is bold enough to accept this suggestion, you may need to include a disclaimer in the instructions that you have provided some extra hardware, else the assembler may spend unnecessary hours trying to find where the extra parts should have gone.
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
John Abshier
Can't wait to hear of your experiences. I know you two will be great roboticists!
@John R - I ordered a handful of these on my last Parallax order - http://www.parallax.com/Store/Robots/RoboticComponents/tabid/198/CategoryID/70/List/0/SortField/0/catpageindex/1/Level/a/ProductID/650/Default.aspx
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Whit+
"We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney
Post Edited (Whit) : 5/23/2010 1:45:13 AM GMT
Check out places like fastenal.com or other industrial hardware suppliers. Prices are typically half or so of the hardware store or Parallax. You will likely face minimum order levels, but if you're looking to stock up, it's the way to go.
If you're looking to get "a handful" at a time, the convenience of adding them to your order, and potential saving of shipping is well worth the premium. I luck out, there is a Fastenal store down the block. I order, they ship to the store, and I usually have my order the next day. No shipping charges.
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
Three front pieces and one more top/bottom plate would allow the bot to be twice as tall and add more stuff.
Yup, I'm starting to suspect some minor addiction here on his part.. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
OBC
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It has begun...
</>
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
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Whit+
"We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths." - Walt Disney
OTOH, anyone serious about their hobby should already have a good stock of these fasteners on hand. RadioShack and the local hardware store are fine for emergencies, but their markups on fasteners are astronomical.
-Phil
My original comments here on including extras, and the thread in the sandbox on finding dropped morsels, are more targeted to the poor person who goes out and buys a kit (high end or otherwise) to get started. This new to the hobby person may not have the cache of stuff others have, and may not have the same resources locally. (My town of 20,000 or so is sadly lacking. On the other hand, I can get you all the plow bolts and other plow and combine components you want, along with all kinds of neat veterinary supplies (including syringes, needles, specialized rubber bands [noparse][[/noparse]if you have to ask, you don't want to know] etc.) you want.)
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
Anyway, back to our regularly-scheduled programming. OBC, you were saying?
-Phil
Yes, back to the robot - is it running yet? Is it chasing down siblings and pets? Inquiring minds what to know!
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
in Programming the bot. While he doesn't realize it, I'm keeping this "his project."
As soon as he's up and around (without feeling feverish) We'll take the next steps.
(With the screwdriver in his hand, not mine.. [noparse]:)[/noparse]
He doesn't surf these forums, so I can share with you that he has a good head on his shoulders regarding
basic electronics, soldering, and projects like this one, but has grown up with the stigma (that this country as promoted
the last few years) that nerds, geeks, and other smart folk were socially unacceptable. I can see the interest
in both the Propeller stuff and robotics building, but he's afraid to 'wear the nerd badge' as he says it.
Our generation grew up with the notion that we could either work for nerds, or become one ourselves.
I can certainly see where his concerns lie, (it's important to feel like you fit in at 16) but I think we can
draw him out a little. [noparse]:)[/noparse] On the way to UPEC, he declared that he was going to abandon the expo and
head for the pool for the day. He had already helped drag out all the chairs and set them up the night
before, so I had no problem allowing him to make that decision. Instead he was drawn in by the projects,
robots, and activities so much that he didn't leave for the pool until 4pm! (After he helped serve lunch!)
So when you see him at UPEW and UPENE, encourage him.
OBC
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Post Edited (Oldbitcollector) : 5/23/2010 8:37:27 PM GMT
No dice there. I carried a 3.8 + GPA (out of 4). That made me an "egg head". I didn't fit in there either, as A) "I was mean", and
Not fitting in can be a drag. I don't know if I was a "loaner" and it didn't matter to me, or if I turned into a loaner as a result of the above. None the less, I did make it through life, am very happily married, have a career and job I like, life is pretty good.
It is sad that we are so often unable to pursue (or feel we can't) our interests.
My advice to Matt (and you're getting him well on the way): Life is what you make it. Don't sweat the little stuff, and enjoy the ride!
Speaking of which, I think I may actually go out and buy a plastic car model tonight, build it, and dig out the pellet gun...
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
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Check out the Propeller Wiki·and contribute if you can.
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
Anyway, OBC knows what he's doing, and it sounds like it's working well.
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Check out the Propeller Wiki·and contribute if you can.
Anyway, after seeing all those stingrays at UPEC, I built my own cheap-o "stingray clone". A servo driven bot about the size of the stingray without the attractive look or the pre-made board. I'm curious, how fast do the wheels on that stingray go? I still have $100 parallax credit and it may be worth getting the set.
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I will tell you from experience how fun it is to play "Stingray Herding" at the trade shows. To play, take 1 Stingray with 3 Ping))) sensors on board, and program it·for roaming object avoidance where·it goes faster if it is farther from objects, and really fast if it sees none.·Put the Stingray in the middle of a large area and surround it with a loose circle of young roboticists. The Stingray will slowly rotate and roam·searching for a break in the circle, then dart for the opening. If you are not fast enough to block the way out, you will need to do more than walk·to get ahead of it and herd it back to the circle.
-Steph
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
I second the "include extra fasteners" comment. It's always useful to have more just in case. I'm also in the position that I usually have plenty of extras around (I like to order from www.microfasteners.com). I often change lengths or head types from what is included in kits. But since most people don't have the option (yet [noparse]:)[/noparse] ) extras are nice.
John R.
Thanks for the input - I am currently building a few kit projects to sell. While none of my current projects have any misc hardware like that, I like your idea of adding extra parts. I am currently including a few extra pins for snappable male headers for just that very reason. I need to look into adding an extra resistor, LED, etc.
Also, since my kits are for rank beginners, I started thinking (this morning) about the jeweler's screw driver that is needed for my screw terminals; I'm thinking that taking a thin nail, grinding the tip down to a flat-head screw driver tip and dipping the head into some rubber dip for a handle, should cost me less than $0.05 and would probably be good to include in my kits. The other tools (pliers, wire cutter, scissors, soldering iron) are pretty standard and most people either have them or can easily get them - the jeweler's screw driver is tough unless you get an entire kit. Maybe I should set up an optional kit which includes the standard tools. Any further thoughts about my el-cheapo screw driver or anything else?
Art
That amounts to 1,511.25 feet per minute, which is about 0.3 miles per minute, which is 18 MPH!!!!
I had to have miscalculated, there is NO WAY those wheels are that fast!
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I'm the wrong guy to ask about tools. I stop what I'm doing, and go the store to buy any tool I need before going on (if I don't already have it)...
Sincerely, I can appreciate what you're thoughts are, but I also sincerely can't relate to not having the "right" tool.
I've been living in angst the past two years because someone "burrowed" my 3.0 mm WIHA straight blade. I also know that if I ever need that particular driver, I've got about 1-1/2 hour ride. I really should order one online...
I like the idea of including an economical version of "specialty" tools (like the hex key I mentioned). I'm not sure if the nail is better than nothing or not, but I'm probably the wrong guy to ask.
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John R.
Click here to see my Nomad Build Log
Try again...
pi * dia /12 * rpm * 60 / 5280 = mph
Rich H
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The Simple Servo Tester, a kit from Gadget Gangster.
W9GFO·got there first [noparse]:)[/noparse]
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·"If you build it, they will come."
John R.
Yeah, that is part of my dilemma, I have more than enough tools for most of my hobby/professional work. I have been in the computer/robotics/control system field for 35 years and am (according to my wife) "a horrible pack rat". So I have, pretty much, everything I need to do this stuff (always looking for and ordering more stock, though.)
That's why I was looking for input. Maybe someone out there (who does not have all the tools that they need) can help me out with what they (or someone else, just getting into the field) would not have.
As far as the nail/screwdriver goes, I will be trying it out first to verify that it would actually work, before going through the trouble to make them and then throw them into the kit - don't want to discourage my customers; that is the main reason that I am in business (tagline: "Helping to build a better engineer")
Art
<soapbox>
I have, like many of you, assembled hundreds if not thousands of kits (not all electronic). A few come with extra hardware, most do not. I needed extra hardware due to defect of loss only 2 or 3 times in that I can remember in my life (I was in my High School Slide Rule Club).· in order to have "Saved" me these 2 or 3 frustrating events, many thousands of extra parts would have had to have been manufactured, transported and then stored until eventually finding there way into the land fill. While these extra parts might only add .005(usd) to a single kit. when you multiply that by all the Kits you buy or anything with "Some assembly required" it adds up to and environmental nightmare. Just like our parents and some of us, moved from a non-electronic world to a world filled with electronics. We need to move from a "surplus" world to one of energy and resource conservation even if that causes some inconvenience.
</soapbox>
When I re-read this it sounds more of a RANT than I intended. Not trying to accuse anyone of not caring for the environment. just trying to point out that a few extra parts in every kit for everyone adds up to a huge amount of overproduction.
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Searider
Post Edited (Searider) : 5/26/2010 5:32:40 PM GMT